The #@#&ing seal won't come off! - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 5:01 pm Thread Starter
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The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Sorry for the venting but this seal is bringing me down to the knees. I replaced the main seal which leaked and ruined my clutch and per the recommendation in this forum I went ahead with replacing the 3 transmission seals. I had to start with the most difficult one apparently, the seal behind the slave cylinder (P/N: 23127705085) which seats 1.5” deep. I tried the method described on the Clymer’s manual by using an awl, to no avail. I threaded a metal sheet screw into the seal and tried to pull it with a slide hammer. No luck, it just pulled the screw right off and the seal won’t move. After fighting with it for a couple of hours, thoughts of dropping a stick a dynamite into the slave bore and blasting the #@%&ing thing off, started to make sense to me…. after all the house is just a rental .

Anyway, went to the dealer who quoted over the phone $72 to install all three seals, which I thought it would be so worth it (even for a cheapo like me) to have a peace of mind. It wasn’t meant to be. The mechanic calls me after 30 min of dropping the transmission to his shop to let me know that he wouldn’t be able to remove that seal now that it is twisted. He would need to add another two hours of labor to disassemble the transmission to get to the seals. The whole purpose of buying the parts was to save some significant cost from the $2500 price of the clutch replacement.

So, any of you out there had to deal with a stubborn seal, were you able to remove it without disassembly of the transmission? I really don’t want to add any more work to this project which has lasted for over a month now. I wouldn’t mind if I was living up north but I live in Florida damn it, I use the bike every day for commuting to work.

Please let me know if you got any solution. Worse scenario, I will have to disassemble the transmission .

Thanks,

Eno
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post #2 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 7:07 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

You just brought back some horrific memories for me my friend. I had the exact same problem. Tried every trick in the book, and tool in my chest, just like you. I have no words of wisdom for you, except to say that my persistence finally paid...and hopefully yours will too.

My wife actually came out to garage at one point and asked me what was wrong. This after hearing the obscenities through several walls!!

I had my seal so "chinkered" up, that I was finally able to get a pair of needle-nose vise grips on one the metals shards that tore away from the bazillion attempts I made to pull it out gracefully. That son-of-a-sea-biscuit finally let go....afterwhich, I so elated with joy, that I popped a beer in celebration.

God speed my friend,
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post #3 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 7:13 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

try a hook or a right angle tool that has a sharpened point that you can pierce the seal, get behind it and pull out.

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying " I'll try again tomorrow".


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post #4 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 7:37 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

I had no troube at all with a small hole drilled and a drywall screw, that seal popped right out. I just pulled gently with a pair of pliers. The slide hammer may have been too much force. If you can find a good surface still and get a dry wall screw (thin shaft but wide threads) into it you may be able to pull it out.

Now when I screwed up the rear main on the engine, that was a different story. I had to make a custom lever hooked to a slide hammer (homemade) and I had a heck of a time getting that out.

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post #5 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 8:46 pm Thread Starter
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Thanks for the encouragement guys, I appreciate it! So these things don't happen just to me apparently . I was just about to disassemble the transmission when I checked the thread again for replies. I'm glad I did. I'll call it off for tonight and resume tomorrow. I'll pass by HF to get a set of these: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93958 and give it a try.

If it works, it will save me a lot of time.

Thanks again!
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post #6 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 8:46 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Forgive my ignorance...but! Why not take the route of the dealer. Meaning disassemble the transmission and get to it from the inside. While I did not go that route with mine, I did open the case to see what my GB proll'em was. Of coarse you will have to wait for 2 weeks because the seal is likely special order! Charging two hours $$$ to remove a few bolts???

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post #7 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 8:58 pm Thread Starter
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell
Forgive my ignorance...but! Why not take the route of the dealer. Meaning disassemble the transmission and get to it from the inside. While I did not go that route with mine, I did open the case to see what my GB proll'em was. Of coarse you will have to wait for 2 weeks because the seal is likely special order! Charging two hours $$$ to remove a few bolts???
Hi Hoss,

As a last resort, that's what I'm going to do but I'm trying to save time. Maybe it's not such a big deal after all, I don't know. I read the Clymer's manual a bit and it seems it's quite some job to disassemble it. Maybe I don't need to perform all the steps, just enough to get access behind the seal? You said you have done it, was too complicated to get to the seal? Do I have to remove all those gears?

The irony is that the dealer told me that he would only change the other two seals on the transmission since this one (behind the slave) never leaks?!
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post #8 of 21 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 9:01 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuchero
Thanks for the encouragement guys, I appreciate it! So these things don't happen just to me apparently . I was just about to disassemble the transmission when I checked the thread again for replies. I'm glad I did. I'll call it off for tonight and resume tomorrow. I'll pass by HF to get a set of these: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93958 and give it a try.

If it works, it will save me a lot of time.

Thanks again!

Just remember, you get what you pay for, if they work. fine, I have found that these tools from harborfreight tend to bend really easily. otherwise, try a better made hook or tool from a reputable tool maker.

Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying " I'll try again tomorrow".


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post #9 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 1:19 am
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuchero
Hi Hoss,

As a last resort, that's what I'm going to do but I'm trying to save time. Maybe it's not such a big deal after all, I don't know. I read the Clymer's manual a bit and it seems it's quite some job to disassemble it. Maybe I don't need to perform all the steps, just enough to get access behind the seal? You said you have done it, was too complicated to get to the seal? Do I have to remove all those gears?

The irony is that the dealer told me that he would only change the other two seals on the transmission since this one (behind the slave) never leaks?!
Now that I think about it, they are on the opposite side so yes, you would need to remove the gears, which I would suggest (highly suggest) you not do. BUT, you should be able to open it up and push the seal out a bit...Maybe enough to correct the angle of the seal. Here is what I have of my Clutch job, some GB pictures as well...

And to your comment about the unknown (to them) leaky slave....I bet that stealer will not drill it out for you either. Just amazes me that stealers are blind to issues we all see as just about routine. Although if you really think about it, its always a friend of a friend that had the leaking rear main or leaking slave or leaking QD's or failed FD or bad radio or front end wobble or bad hydro center stand, right?

Also, your HF find. They have some stouter ones, get those and a small pry bar!!!

Hoss
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'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
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Last edited by shoswell; Jan 29th, 2010 at 1:29 am.
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post #10 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 10:36 am Thread Starter
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell
Now that I think about it, they are on the opposite side so yes, you would need to remove the gears, which I would suggest (highly suggest) you not do. BUT, you should be able to open it up and push the seal out a bit...Maybe enough to correct the angle of the seal. Here is what I have of my Clutch job, some GB pictures as well...

And to your comment about the unknown (to them) leaky slave....I bet that stealer will not drill it out for you either. Just amazes me that stealers are blind to issues we all see as just about routine. Although if you really think about it, its always a friend of a friend that had the leaking rear main or leaking slave or leaking QD's or failed FD or bad radio or front end wobble or bad hydro center stand, right?

Also, your HF find. They have some stouter ones, get those and a small pry bar!!!
Hopefully I'll be able to pull it out tonight with all the suggestions so far: needle nose pliers, dry wall screw... If not successful, I'll have to open it up.

I did drill the slave weep hole while in there and sure enough when I asked the stealer if he had done that, he said no way! This same stealer told me the clutch replacement is not a job for a "non certified BMW mechanic" so I'm going to prove him wrong.

Sure it's a time consuming job, especially when you hit some bumps like the seal removal, but with a good manual and the help of this forum, it's definitely doable.
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post #11 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 1:14 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

I would second the concern with Harbor Freights pick set. If you want to try a pick get a good set. I have had good luck with the slide hammer method but it is important to go gently and if possible, reposition to the opposite side in a back and forth fashion to avoid cocking the seal. If it's already cocked, tapping the high side until it's even and starting over has helped me get stubborn seals in the past.
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post #12 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 1:36 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Try three or four screws spaced equally around the edge. Put some stainless twist wire on them and tie them all together to allow pulling with the slide hammer.


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post #13 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 5:52 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
Try three or four screws spaced equally around the edge. Put some stainless twist wire on them and tie them all together to allow pulling with the slide hammer.
That is probably the best idea I have heard yet and it make a lot of sense too. Well done.

John
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post #14 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 6:15 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Might as well toss this one out in case it hasnt been said.

Two, Or three, or even four screws made to tap into the seal at almost (close enuff) equidistant placement, and a washer with holes in the approximately the same orientation as the seal taps (screw holes) and using a slide with a bolt into the center of the washer, nut to back it up..

Now screw it to where you get tension on all of the screws when you pull on the slide.. (remember- 2 holes, 3 holes or 4 holes- equally spaced) you can now LIGHTLY tap on the slide and have the piece SLOWLY work out..

DId I make sense? Like a puller, just using the slide and a way to tap into the seal without bullying it out.. Ive used this before , but never on a seal like this one..

Let me know If this makes sense or I need to up the meds...

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post #15 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 7:53 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

I've never seen a seal that couldn't be pulled. If nothing else, keep using your screws and open it up and pry it out with a thin blade screwdriver. I have a heavy duty seal puller from Snap On that works great. Eventually it will turn loose..........

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post #16 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 8:38 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

This is a fairly common problem. The job of removing that seal is complicated by it being in a deep recess and then...the worst enemy of a good mechanic sets in...ANGER and FRUSTRATION.

The right tools (a good quality pick set), and PATIENCE are the keys to removing this seal. i have done it MANY times and it can still be a pain in the rear. There is NO way I would disassemble that tranny to replace that seal...it is quite a job (just disassembled one a week ago for shipping purposes).

Very seriously, PATIENCE is the key!

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post #17 of 21 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 10:59 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

But Jack, Im like a bad doctor, I have no patience..



Do I hear crickets and groans in here?

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post #18 of 21 Old Jan 31st, 2010, 12:20 am Thread Starter
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Hi guys, I'm so glad to report that I was able to remove and install all 3 transmission seals today. What a relief! I can't thank you enough for the ideas and especially the encouragement. I was so close to disassemble the damn thing. As Jack said, the worst enemy for any mechanic is ANGER and IMPATIENCE. I admit, I'm not the most patient person out there, heck I'll just say it: I've no patience what so ever with silly problems .

Anyway, the picks and needle nose pliers didn't help much and I couldn't thread any screw in there since the metal part of the seal was all twisted. But what I did was insert a flat head screwdriver between the shaft and the internal lip of the seal and then rotate the screw driver 90 degrees forcing therefore the seal to lift up gradually as I did that all around. I'm going to pulverize that seal later to get some satisfaction .

The second seal on the same side, came off like butter with two wood screws threaded at 180 degrees from each other and using a slider hammer pulling lightly on each head screw alternatively.

The third seal on the clutch side, started giving me headaches and for a moment I thought I was having a terrifying deja vu. I threaded again 2 wood screws at 180 degrees but the slide hammer wasn't effective. That's when I changed to another method. Instead of pulling with the slide hammer I inserted a fat screw driver under the pulling adapter of the slide hammer and used it as a pry bar. The seal came right off!

Impatience got it me again though, although you be the judge of that. As I was tapping lightly a mallet on the deep socket for the last seal, I tapped a little bit harder right at the end and now the seal is seating at 6mm deep instead of 5mm. I hope it's not that important since I didn't see any opening in the walls of bore. What's your opinion?

Thanks again to all of you! I can now "relax" and start to put back all of her belongings.
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post #19 of 21 Old Jan 31st, 2010, 12:53 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

And a new way to Skin that seal has been figured out, Thanks for the progress note!

Don't be afraid to say what you feel, as those that matter DOnt mind and those that mind Dont matter.
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1982 SUZUKI GS1000 (GONE)
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2004 BMW R 1150 RT Sold.....
2007 BMW R 1200 GS
1986 BMW K100RT WITH A FLEXIT SIDECAR
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post #20 of 21 Old Jan 31st, 2010, 2:14 pm
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

I've never been where you are but is it possible to get a hot air gun on the seal. It sounds like it might have been installed with lock tight.But then again I might be full of it but heat wouldn't hurt.
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post #21 of 21 Old Jan 31st, 2010, 8:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: The #@#&ing seal won't come off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvx216
I've never been where you are but is it possible to get a hot air gun on the seal. It sounds like it might have been installed with lock tight.But then again I might be full of it but heat wouldn't hurt.
I thought so too for a moment but upon removal I didn't find any trace of lock tight. They just have been in there for a long time, 10 years now and 67K miles.
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