Speed Bleeders and DOT 5 - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 12 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 11:52 pm Thread Starter
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Question Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

Ok, I'm being lazy but I thought that the answer(s) to this question might come in handy for others down the road.

1. I there any advantage to putting more than one speed bleeder in the front, at the clutch and at the rear? Other than getting more of the old fluid out that is.... and how much of an advantage would that be? Would you have to bleed the system less often?

2. The way I count it one could buy.....
1x SB7100S for the front brakes
2x SB1010S for the rear
1x SB1010S for the clutch
2x SB1010S for the ABS units
1x BMW adapter kit for rear motorcycle caliper.
Consists of M7 x M12 bushing to replace the OEM M6 x M12 bushing. Included is SB7100S Speed Bleeder and copper crush washer.

This seems like a lot... my source for the above list was
http://www.speedbleeder.com/Motorcycle%20Sizes.htm#BMW

So.... what is wrong with the above list provided I DID want to install enough bleeders to do a VERY thorough job?

3. True of False? You can use DOT 5 in the LT and it will make it so you never need to flush the system again.
See the top quotation at the following link:
http://speedbleeder.zoovy.com/catego..._installation/

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
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post #2 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 12:47 am Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

"The major problem of using DOT 5, other than the water issue, is the ABS.
ABS pumps (or servo brake units) will cause the silicone fluid to foam.
Major problem!!! In an auto it won't show up until the abs actually
kicks in. Like a panic stop. I would imagine that on an LT w/ servo
brakes it would always be a problem."

From another thread.... maybe this other guy didn't have ABS.

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
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post #3 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 1:08 am
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

DOT 5 is NOT recommended for replacing DOT 4, and can be a real hassle to do, as ALL, meaning just about every drop, of DOT 4 has to be removed from the system first. Even then, there are parts of most DOT 4 brake systems that will be damaged by DOT 5.

DOT 5 brake fluid is WORSE for the average user, and is NOT suited for long change intervals as some think. It will not absorb moisture, so any moisture that gets into the system will settle into the lowest points in cylinders, pumps, and lines, causing more corrosion than DOT4, which absorbs the moisture and keeps it distributed. With DOT4, the moisture level has to get pretty high before corrosion starts, so periodic change will keep the level down. Once moisture settles in a DOT 5 system, even changing it may not remove the settled water deposits.

However, there is a new fluid on the market that is still Glycol based, and performs similar to DOT 5 without the huge drawbacks. It is DOT 5.1.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clipped from this site: http://www.motorcycleproject.com/mot...rakefluid.html

Silicone Brake Fluids
In years past, all brake fluids were glycol. Then D.O.T. 5, a silicone fluid having a higher temperature rating, emerged, initially to meet the higher boiling point requirements of racing use. (Race car brake systems include oil-cooler-like heat exchangers and ceramic pads.) Silicone fluid was able to withstand the most heat of any brake fluid, so it earned a reputation as a racing brake fluid. However, silicone brake fluid has properties very different from glycol fluid, and has its own pros and cons. On the advantage side, silicone fluid will not harm paint or plastic, and does not aggressively attract additional moisture as glycol fluid does. On the disadvantage side however, silicone fluid aerates easily. Harley-Davison, one of the sole current OEM users of silicone fluid, warns buyers to let the fluid sit at least an hour before using it. The trip home in the saddlebag is enough to aerate silicone brake fluid until it looks like a freshly poured soft drink. Silicone fluid is also slightly more compressible than glycol fluid, does not change color to tip the user to its moisture content, and worst of all, neither accepts or disperses moisture, making systems using it more corrosion prone, and requiring much more frequent fluid changes. Silicone brake fluid also lacks glycol fluid's naturally occuring lubricity, making it incompatible with the mechanical valving in some antilock braking systems.


A third brake fluid category could be included, if we were to consider bicycles. Their hydraulic brake systems use mineral oil, that is, baby oil. About the same consistency as glycol fluid, mineral oil is still not the best thing around paint, but in most other respects it is fairly non-corrosive. Like silicone fluid however, it does not deal well with moisture.

Which is Best?
As you may have noticed by now, instead of looking at brake fluid as D.O.T. 3/4 versus D.O.T. 5, we should see the issue as glycol versus silicone. This represents the larger division of type, and comparing D.O.T. ratings just isn't significant, especially since D.O.T. 5 fluids are now available in glycol formulation. Glycol fluids have improved until they now meet D.O.T. 5 standards. D.O.T. 5.1 for example, is a glycol fluid designed for certain ABS systems having mechanically cycling proportion valves. So now we have D.O.T. 3, 4, 5, and 5.1, with all but the 5 designation being glycol, while the 5 is silicone.


The real way to compare brake fluids is by deciding what is important to you. Is silicone fluid's safety around paint and plastic more important than yearly changes and a softer action? Its higher boiling point, the reason for its development and at one time its strong suit, is now academic, since D.O.T. 5 glycol (5.1) fluids are now widely available. Glycol fluid therefore is, for most of us, the better brake fluid, and the best just may be the 5.1, if the highest boiling point, which is really a moisture tolerance measurement, matters.

On the practical side, beware that glycol and silicone brake fluids are hugely incompatible with each other. Mixing even small amounts will create a sludge that looks amazingly like Italian salad dressing and is about as effective as a brake fluid -- meaning, not. Of further consideration is that, in some cases, the hardware designed for one fluid will not accept the other. Brake caliper and master cylinder seals, hoses, and other parts won't always work correctly when the type of fluid is changed.

Summary
Over the years, the debate has continued as to which is the best fluid. Racers and custom builders have traditionally promoted silicone fluid, and many street riders have assumed this meant it was good for them also. However, silicone is the highest-maintenence of all brake fluids, one that demands frequent attention. While this is acceptable in a race setting, it is less so in everyday commuting. The plain fact remains that vehicle manufacturers use glycol fluid because, with its being designed for the average consumer, it poses the least liability to them. In reality, the answer to the usage question is simple -- the brake fluid type the manufacturer recommends is the best. In most cases this will be the glycol fluid, the one that is designed to meet all of your brake system's demands and do so with very little fuss.

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post #4 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 1:06 pm
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

You will want to bleed at all points. Sludge will collect at the low points and trapped air will collect at the high points so both need to be bled.
The Speedbleeders can make this easier if you are using the old pump method.

I think you don't need them for the ABS unit. I think the procedure there is to open the valve and depress the brake lever partway and the pump will run the fluid out (ignition ON of course).

Dave
-2000 K1200LT
-------------------------------
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post #5 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 3:53 pm
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

First off you don't need them for the wheel circuit flush as you open the bleeder only once and use the ABS unit to pump out the fluid all at once from each port. Best to use an elevated speed bleeder bag and pump until the fluid runs clear while keeping the reservoir funnel full.


The best place to use speed bleeders is on the control circuits as these are done just like a normal brake system, except Speed Bleeder does not make any small enough for the nipples on the ABS unit. The ABS unit has six nipples not two.

Ditto on NO DOT5.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #6 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 4:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
First off you don't need them for the wheel circuit flush as you open the bleeder only once and use the ABS unit to pump out the fluid all at once from each port. Best to use an elevated speed bleeder bag and pump until the fluid runs clear while keeping the reservoir funnel full.


The best place to use speed bleeders is on the control circuits as these are done just like a normal brake system, except Speed Bleeder does not make any small enough for the nipples on the ABS unit. The ABS unit has six nipples not two.

Ditto on NO DOT5.
So using the model numbers above you would recommend ordering what?

Thanks

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #7 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 6:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

After looking at the system, here is what I am thinking.

I welcome any additional thoughts.

2x SB7100S for the front brakes.... one for each side at the wheel
1x SB1010S for the rear ...... again at the wheel
1x SB1010S for the clutch
0x SB1010S for the ABS units..... should flush themselves for the most part
1x BMW adapter kit for rear motorcycle caliper....at the for foot.

I'm thinking it will flush most of the fluid at these points.....

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #8 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 7:52 pm
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

The rear caliper has two bleed screws, inboard and outboard. I personnally don't use speed bleeders but I do use the catch bag they sell.
I am not sure what the BMW adapter kit for rear motorcycle caliper is???

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #9 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 9:09 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
The rear caliper has two bleed screws, inboard and outboard. I personnally don't use speed bleeders but I do use the catch bag they sell.
I am not sure what the BMW adapter kit for rear motorcycle caliper is???
http://speedbleeder.zoovy.com/produc...it-Silver.html
I'm not sure where it goes... I was assuming down by the brake pedal... Haven't looked though....

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #10 of 12 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 9:11 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
The rear caliper has two bleed screws, inboard and outboard. I personnally don't use speed bleeders but I do use the catch bag they sell.
I am not sure what the BMW adapter kit for rear motorcycle caliper is???
Here is the picture...
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Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #11 of 12 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 1:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

Ok, Called Speed Bleeder and a young lady helped answer all my questions.

First off the Adapter mentioned is for older R-bikes. They had a part on the rear caliper that would sometimes fail and BMW would make you replace the whole thing. Speed Bleeder designed this product to prevent this from being necessary.

So do you need bleeders for the ABS systems?
Most don't. If you don't get air in the system this will never be an issue. If you do... these would be nice to have.

Do you need two for the front?
Yes, one for each caliper.

Why would you need two for the rear when there is only one caliper?
Because there are two bleeders... at the same location on both sides of the caliper. You could likely get by with one but if you put the other one in you can always use it later for the clutch.

This is what I ordered.
SB1010 SB1010 Speed Bleeder (remove) $7.00 $21.00
SB7100S SB7100S Speed Bleeder (remove) $7.00 $14.00
SPEEDBLEEDERBAG Bleeder Bag (remove) $3.00 $3.00
SPEEDBLEEDERHOSE Bleeder Hose (remove) $3.00 $3.00
Subtotal: $41.00
Simple Shipping: $5.95

and this is where.... http://speedbleeder.zoovy.com/
Grand Total: $46.95

Ghaison (Jason)
99 K1200RS Silver and Blue (Sold!)
2004 K1200LT FOR SALE!!!
Bluefield, VA
Sometimes you can get so fixated on the fact that you are right that you lose sight of the reality that it doesn't matter.
-some guy named Ghaison circa 2002


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post #12 of 12 Old Jun 24th, 2010, 10:27 pm
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Re: Speed Bleeders and DOT 5

There are two items in this thread that are simply incorrect. Here is correct info

1) Despite the quoted article racers, etc don't use or recommend silicone DOT5 fluid- exactly the opposite, in fact. Its crappy feel, incompatibility with DOT 4 and DOT 5.1, etc have long made it a no no near a track. The last time I heard anyone near a track mention using DOT5 was a very very long time ago when DOT 5 was first introduced.
Its best use is museum vehicles in air conditioned environments IF their systems are compatible - it doesn't form gums or varnishes- and even there one can make an equally a strong case for high quality DOT 4 types. FWIW, there are still low quality DOT3s around that easily form varnish under hot conditions so if you use DOT3 to save a couple $, be careful about your choice.

2) Speedbleeders won't work at all if you get a lot of air in the lines so they are most certainly not useful or desirable in that case. The reason they won't work is that air in the line compresses without opening the check valve in the Speedbleeder. If you get a lot of air in the lines on something that has Speedbleeders, you will have to essentially remove them to get fluid down to the bleeder, then put them back on and bleed. Yes, I like Speedbleeders on cars that you may expect to bleed single handed. I don't use them on motorcycles because it is possible to work the brake and the bleeder wrench with one person.
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