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post #1 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 7:37 am Thread Starter
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Question Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I have a 05 LT and just installed a set of rear Carbone Lorraine sintered metal brake pads, the squeal sounds like metal on mental, which, since there are sintered I suppose is normal. People turn and look to see where the noise is coming from.

I checked Dennis Kirk and they have EBC Kevlar Brake Pads and SBS Ceramic Brake Pads. Anyone have experience with either of them?

Do they stop the noise from the brakes?

Do they give you good braking?

Bob Brendel
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post #2 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 8:13 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I put std BMW brake pads on the rear on mine and it stopped my school bus breaks.
It was quiet all last year.

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post #3 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 8:28 am Thread Starter
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

What was the sticker shock for OEM pads? I haven't checked the price in a long time.

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post #4 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 8:49 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rab1967
What was the sticker shock for OEM pads? I haven't checked the price in a long time.
Hey, Bob - before you go much further in this dilemma, give C.L. a ping and 'if' you kept the packaging or reference/item number, ask them if your installed pads are the racing version or the touring version. A shop here installed a racing set on ole Toad and the squeal and grinding were awful - the shop contacted C.L. and found that the wrong version had been ordered. Swapped for the touring/street version and we're almost back to whisper quiet.
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post #5 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 8:55 am Thread Starter
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Hey, Bob - before you go much further in this dilemma, give C.L. a ping and 'if' you kept the packaging or reference/item number, ask them if your installed pads are the racing version or the touring version. A shop here installed a racing set on ole Toad and the squeal and grinding were awful - the shop contacted C.L. and found that the wrong version had been ordered. Swapped for the touring/street version and we're almost back to whisper quiet.

I bought these from Beemer Bone Yard, I would like to think they are the correct one's but they are the noisiest I've had. Unfortunately I don't have the packaging.

Bob Brendel
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post #6 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 9:46 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I changed out to ceramic on the SUV because the other replacements were creating so much dust they completely coated the mag wheels. Good stopping but not sure what the performance would be for an LT

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post #7 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 10:45 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I just called the local dealer for rears and they were $67 and change.

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post #8 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 11:10 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I would be leery of installing any performance pads on the LT since they are likely to greatly reduce the life of the rotors. Performance pads are designed to work best at elevated temperatures which will NEVER happen on an LT unless you go road racing with it.

If you think BMW pads are expensive new rotors are in nosebleed territory. Chicago BMW always discounts parts 20%.

Interestingly enough I just ordered a new set of pads for my '79 airhead and my expert supplier recommended LUCAS kevlar (yes, that Lucas of "prince of darkness" fame") as being the absolute best compromise between performance and protecting rotors. I still run OEM on my LT (and have for a combined 180K miles) because they work exceptionally well.

One absolute must before installing any new pads is to vigorously scrub both sides of the rotor with a block of wood and Garnet paper (an electric palm sander works great too) to remove uneven deposits transferred to the rotor from the old pad material. Failure to do this will almost always cause squealing or pulsation due to thickness variation (runout) - often mistakenly called "warping".

Only use Garnet and never use any other kind of sand paper - since it will leave additional deposits and really screw things up.


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post #9 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 12:52 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I've been running EBC Copper Sintered (HH) pads for 27K and counting! No Squeal (at least at the level I play my radio ).

I hassled with sintered versus "softer materials" and chose the Sintered. Life versus braking power was the usual trade off.

I don't have any problems with rotor thickness (77k) due to wear, but, I think the copper is soft enough to be sacrificial.

If you have no way to return the brakes, I also read somewhere on this site of someone using that "brake pad glue-stuff" behind the pads and this stopped the noise. Maybe something to consider.

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post #10 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 12:55 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
One absolute must before installing any new pads is to vigorously scrub both sides of the rotor with a block of wood and Garnet paper (an electric palm sander works great too) to remove uneven deposits transferred to the rotor from the old pad material. Failure to do this will almost always cause squealing or pulsation due to thickness variation (runout) - often mistakenly called "warping".

Only use Garnet and never use any other kind of sand paper - since it will leave additional deposits and really screw things up.

Great information Ron. I've never heard of Garnet sandpaper before, where might I find it?

Bob Brendel
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post #11 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 1:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
If you have no way to return the brakes, I also read somewhere on this site of someone using that "brake pad glue-stuff" behind the pads and this stopped the noise. Maybe something to consider.

Joe


.

I've tried the "glue-stuff" you mentioned and it does help, just not enough. I called the dealer I normally buy from and the BMW pads were $75.00. I ended up getting the EBC's for about $35.00. I'm trying to show some dealer loyalty by getting the EBC pads from him. I know I can get the BMW pads a lot cheaper from Chicago BMW.

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post #12 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 1:33 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rab1967
Great information Ron. I've never heard of Garnet sandpaper before, where might I find it?
I'm not Ron, but, Garnet sand paper is pretty much the regular "sand" paper. You want the kind that will crush and come off the paper, Not the bullet proof stuff.

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post #13 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 1:59 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I'd probably recommend the Kevlar over the ceramic.
The ceramic will be the highest performance but at the sacrifice of the rotors.
Not something you want to replace on the LT unless you have to...

Mine stopped like crazy with the Carbone Loraine Kevlar pads...

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post #14 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 6:48 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

+1 on the EBC HH pads. I've had them on for over a year now and no problem bedding in or working. After a short break in period I have noticed my stops seem to be as good or better than the stock pads. Wear seems to be about the same or just a bit quicker than stock but I won't know until I run them out.

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post #15 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 9:25 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rab1967
Great information Ron. I've never heard of Garnet sandpaper before, where might I find it?
ACE is the place.

It's nothing special except that it is extremely hard and will cut just about anything without leaving residue behind. You're trying to get those rotors down to relatively clean metal and remove old deposits so that the new pads will break in properly - and stainless is a tough nut to crack.

I've heard of some specialists that will turn stainless rotors - but the price is insane - and probably not needed unless they are scored from abuse.


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post #16 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 9:43 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I just bought the EBC's for about $27 / pair (x3) I've run them on my two previous bikes w/ good results. We'll see how they do on the Beemer. Got mine from RonAyers.
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post #17 of 29 Old Jan 27th, 2010, 11:10 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I too used to suffer the squeaky brake syndrome. I have since bedded in every new set, and regardless of manufacturer, I never have the problem any more.

You must properly bed them in: click here to learn more, grasshopper.

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post #18 of 29 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 12:26 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

For what it's worth, right before the three year warranty expired, I became aware of the five-point attach replacement rear rotor and had the local dealer replace the OEM rear rotor with the new one and I had new BMW pads installed. I do have the EBC HH pads as replacements when necessary. Since I switched to the new rear rotor, I do not have any appreciable brake squeal. I also use the rear brake quite a bit when coming to a customary stop, especially in city traffic...naturally, if one applies enough pressure, the front brake is also engaged on my 05 LT. Finally, annually, I remove all calipers, clean any dust/debris, check for any fluid leaks, wipe the rotors with Acetone, check the rotors for thickness at four or five locations using a 1" Starrett micrometer, and also check both rotors for run-out using a dial indicator before re-assembly. When checking for runout, first check for lateral play in wheel bearings.
This maintenance approach seems to work as I no longer have brake squeal. I have not had to go through the break-in procedure for new pads as explained by others. It is however, imperative to remove the "glaze" on existing rotors before installing new pads.

Perhaps, a change to the five-point attach rear rotor will help some who continue to experience this annoying squeal at the rear.

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post #19 of 29 Old Jan 28th, 2010, 10:29 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I have the CL pads from beemer boneyard and they have never made any noise at all. As a side note I was driving to pick up my daughter yesterday to get a replacment vehicle for the car she ran into the center divider on the freeway last week. As I was making the 405 to 5 transition, I looked to my right and noticed a huge building with "EBC Brakes" on the sign. Next time I am in the area I may stop by and see if they have a retail counter.
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post #20 of 29 Old Jan 29th, 2010, 4:56 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

During my summer 2008 Lake Superior Loop, i had an unplanned stop at BMW of Grand Rapids, MI to repair a front tire that had decided to come apart.

During the stop, they convinced me that my front pads needed refreshing, and being an agreeable fella - they had put me straight up on the lift with no waiting - and given the front wheel was already off the bike - i said "sure!."

BMW of Grand Rapids, based on my trip to their parts room, puts SBS Ceramics on everything they service.

Things I Noticed:

Significantly Greater Stopping POWER on non-evo brakes.

Several Hundred Miles Later, I encountered a few loopy pedestrian tourists who were standing in the middle of Provincial 17, the trans-canada highway, apparently chasing butterflies and picking flowers. Given that I was exiting a corner at about 85 mph in the same spot, I got a chance to test the SBSs under battle conditions.

net/net - they stop. ;-)

a significant improvement over the stock pads. better initial bite, better feel, less fade.

its about 20k miles later, and my front rotors have no noticable grooving, scoring or discoloration that i attribute to the frequent hard front brake use.

i've also noticed that upon a really enthusiastic application of the front brake, I get the same 'brake heat' smell that one enounters after a tractor trailer panic stop or after a jet aircraft landing - i.e. the pads themselves are vaporizing to dissipate the energy of a hard stop.

from this i conclude that the SBSs are actually softer than the stock pads and should be easier on the rotors than a sintered pad.

i ocasionally notice some minor squeekiness when the brakes are dead cold, but this stops as soon as they are warmed.

net/net - I really like the SBS ceramics, they stop better than stock and seem to have the potential to extend, rather than shorten, rotor life.

as always, YMMV.

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post #21 of 29 Old Jan 30th, 2010, 9:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

To update this thread. I put he EBC rear pads on the LT the other day. So far so good. Just a little bit of noise every so often. I also put that sticky stuff on the back of the pads. I've only put about 50 miles on them so we'll see what happens. I think the next time I may try the ceramic pads.

Thanks for all the advice.

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post #22 of 29 Old May 10th, 2010, 4:37 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmmm90s
During my summer 2008 Lake Superior Loop, i had an unplanned stop at BMW of Grand Rapids, MI to repair a front tire that had decided to come apart.

During the stop, they convinced me that my front pads needed refreshing, and being an agreeable fella - they had put me straight up on the lift with no waiting - and given the front wheel was already off the bike - i said "sure!."

BMW of Grand Rapids, based on my trip to their parts room, puts SBS Ceramics on everything they service.

Things I Noticed:

Significantly Greater Stopping POWER on non-evo brakes.

Several Hundred Miles Later, I encountered a few loopy pedestrian tourists who were standing in the middle of Provincial 17, the trans-canada highway, apparently chasing butterflies and picking flowers. Given that I was exiting a corner at about 85 mph in the same spot, I got a chance to test the SBSs under battle conditions.

net/net - they stop. ;-)

a significant improvement over the stock pads. better initial bite, better feel, less fade.

its about 20k miles later, and my front rotors have no noticable grooving, scoring or discoloration that i attribute to the frequent hard front brake use.

i've also noticed that upon a really enthusiastic application of the front brake, I get the same 'brake heat' smell that one enounters after a tractor trailer panic stop or after a jet aircraft landing - i.e. the pads themselves are vaporizing to dissipate the energy of a hard stop.

from this i conclude that the SBSs are actually softer than the stock pads and should be easier on the rotors than a sintered pad.

i ocasionally notice some minor squeekiness when the brakes are dead cold, but this stops as soon as they are warmed.

net/net - I really like the SBS ceramics, they stop better than stock and seem to have the potential to extend, rather than shorten, rotor life.

as always, YMMV.
+1 one these pads, they're brilliant. Don't know about rotor life yet, but stopping power and feel are transformed. Thanks for the tip.
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post #23 of 29 Old May 10th, 2010, 10:16 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I've not had any significant brake squeal on my '07 since going to the 5-point mounted rear rotor about 30k miles ago. However, I'm lucky to get 4-5k miles off of my rear brake pads using stock pads. I got 18k off my first set, 9k off the second, and then less than 6k off each set since. I suspect a problem with the linking is causing the rear to be applied more than it should when I apply the fronts. But BMW denies that, insisting that it's my "riding style". That's hard to imagine since I intentionally avoid my rear brake because of this problem.

I'm also on my third rear rotor (1st replaced under the Service Bulletin to get the 5-point version.) I'm tempted to try a different brand pads, but afraid anything that lasts longer will wear out the rotor faster.

There doesn't seem to be any way to win when the dealer and BMW Customer Service both deny there is a problem. I'm wondering if I could be happy with a GW...

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post #24 of 29 Old May 26th, 2010, 2:04 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanLT
I've not had any significant brake squeal on my '07 since going to the 5-point mounted rear rotor about 30k miles ago. However, I'm lucky to get 4-5k miles off of my rear brake pads using stock pads. I got 18k off my first set, 9k off the second, and then less than 6k off each set since. I suspect a problem with the linking is causing the rear to be applied more than it should when I apply the fronts. But BMW denies that, insisting that it's my "riding style". That's hard to imagine since I intentionally avoid my rear brake because of this problem.

I'm also on my third rear rotor (1st replaced under the Service Bulletin to get the 5-point version.) I'm tempted to try a different brand pads, but afraid anything that lasts longer will wear out the rotor faster.

There doesn't seem to be any way to win when the dealer and BMW Customer Service both deny there is a problem. I'm wondering if I could be happy with a GW...
I had very similar situation with my rear rotor. I replaced with it with the new 5 point style under warranty / recall with new pads. After that, and my rear pads lasted 3K miles, damaging the rotor. The dealer replaced the rotor and pads again for free, but I'm at 3K level again and pads are less than 50% left. It also worries me that the rotor gets very hot when riding in the city - on a highway it seems to be fine.
I'm thinkning maybe switching to an aftermarket rotor with ventilation holes such as EBS?

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post #25 of 29 Old May 27th, 2010, 12:01 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

See my reply to the post "Back brake disc getting hot", I had the new five point rear rotor and it is eating pads and dusting my rear wheel. I found the surface of the rotor is forming tiny raised metal specs which are destroying the pads. Taking to dealer to see if rotor is defective.
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post #26 of 29 Old May 27th, 2010, 8:07 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

I changed my rear brakes with Carbone Lorraine bakes last year, and have no noise. They make Brake Disc Quiet you can get at any parts store. Just spray the metal backing clips or the back of the metal pads before sliding them in if you don't have clips. I never have a problem with noise either on my cars or bike.
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post #27 of 29 Old May 27th, 2010, 8:21 am
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

ps... It's cheaper to replace pads than to change rotors. Think of it that way.
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post #28 of 29 Old May 29th, 2010, 3:02 pm
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjedruszczak
I had very similar situation with my rear rotor. I replaced with it with the new 5 point style under warranty / recall with new pads. After that, and my rear pads lasted 3K miles, damaging the rotor. The dealer replaced the rotor and pads again for free, but I'm at 3K level again and pads are less than 50% left. It also worries me that the rotor gets very hot when riding in the city - on a highway it seems to be fine.
I'm thinkning maybe switching to an aftermarket rotor with ventilation holes such as EBS?

BJ
My severe drop in pad life started with the replacement of the rotor with the 5 point version also. I would love to know what experience others have had with rear pad life since switching rotors. Is anyone getting normal pad life with the 5 point rotor? I haven't made it to 6k on a set of pads in 30k miles on the 5 point rotor. I don't think it's too much to ask that a set of pads make it between normal service intervals.

I haven't found any aftermarket rear rotors for the LT, only front. Is there an aftermarket rear rotor out there?

Alan
Garden Grove, CA

'07 K1200LT Biaritz Blue (97k miles)
'08 K1200LT Biaritz Blue (76k miles and climbing)

"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well - that comes from poor judgment." -A.A. Milne

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post #29 of 29 Old May 29th, 2010, 3:30 pm
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Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Re: Kevlar or Ceramic Brake Pads, Which One?

Yes, EBC makes one. I have had it for about 18 month. Perfect with EBC HH pads. No, noise, great braking power, and only minimal black brake dust. Wear seems a little more than the OEM, but that may be because I used to avoid using the rear brake. Plus the price is right!

Wolfgang

K1200LT 1999 Champaign SOLD
R1100RS 1994 Teal SOLD
R1150RT 2003 Blue (Sold)
R1100RT 1997 Blue


Pest, Budapest Hungary

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