A cure for slave cylinder failures... - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 12:19 pm Thread Starter
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A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Convert back to a manual clutch..

I can't believe no one thought of this...I forgot to get simple.
How do you fix something. The simplest way you can..

It certainly would be easy enough to design a manual assembly to mount where the slave cylinder goes...Just a cover and a lever assembly to push the rod in...

One of you machinist types should build this.........




John

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post #2 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 12:39 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Great idee... I know I'd build it if I had the shop... No need to "replace" the Slave.. all you need is a "linkage" that moves the slave outside the engine/gearbox.
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post #3 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 1:31 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Golly Gee That is just what they have on Airheads. But that one had a bearing that was prone to fail and it spin welded the rod to the release disc. Oh and the cables broke all the time. But the clutch was OK.

John
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post #4 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 1:36 pm Thread Starter
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Guess I've never ridden long enough for a cable to fail...
But most all bikes have cables. A lot easier to replace than a clutch and slave cylinder...

To me simple is still good...

John

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post #5 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 1:45 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
To me simple is still good...

John
I agree John as I was looking for an easy tap point for switched power on my CAN bus GS. I began to realize just how dead in the water I will be with an EMP event!!.

You could always carry a spare cable and tie it to the old one as you pulled it out. Also a small pair of vise grips make a great temporary lever. Not gonna do that on an LT...

John
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post #6 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 4:24 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

I was actually thinking of ways to move the slave cylinder up and at a right angle to the actuation rod, then putting a lever in the new housing to transfer the action to the rod. Had it somewhat worked out in my head, but the totaling of my LT in late 2004 kinda ended the thought.

My thinking was that removing the spinning action of the rod from the bearing in the end of the piston would remove most of the reason for the cylinder to fail, and even if it did fail for some reason there would be no path for the fluid to get to the clutch, and it would show up on the ground under the bike right away.

If someone gives me an LT, I may just have to work on this again.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
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post #7 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 5:18 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Dave,

GAColson is almost trying to give one away. http://www.bmwlt.com/classifieds/sho...p/product/1966

Seems like a really good deal to me, although it is 10 years old. You'll have plenty of stuff to tinker with on this bike.

Kevin

1999 K1200LT, patiently waiting for a new model.
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post #8 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 7:18 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

David, Dave Dragon mentioned a while back that he literally tried to GIVE an LT away FREE to a tech school but never heard back from them.

Dave Dragon, how much tax benefit would you receive if the school had accepted your bike?

I would put up $50 toward making you whole for the tax break so Mr Shealy could have a bike to work on! Anybody else????

This aint charity in any way shape or form but rather a selfish personal goal. I figure I would get a return in spades on my investment with all the help Mr S. provides.

Let me know where to send the cash!!!!

Loren

WAK1200LT
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post #9 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 8:12 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

My 85 K100 has the throw out bearing spinning in oil in basically the same location as the slave cylinder pilot goes now. They have a seal inverted in the input shaft that prevents the oil from getting on the clutch. Well at least till the seal fails anyhow.

Been thinking along the same lines myself. Either install a TRUE thrust bearing for the load and use slave or mechanical linkage. I agree with Dave S. on this that there is no decent bearing in this assembly.

Simplest option: Ride my old K

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post #10 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 8:52 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
My thinking was that removing the spinning action of the rod from the bearing in the end of the piston would remove most of the reason for the cylinder to fail

Dave, If this is the case...how much do you think the FELT on the actuator rod contributes to the spinning of the rod itself. I know that the rod fits rather loosely inside of the Input shaft w/o the felt, but with it, it seems that it would be almost certain to turn constantly when the shaft is turning.

I have never considered the felt to be much of a "seal" at all and is maybe there to prevent noise??? But...I wonder if it actually contributes to failure of the slave bearing by making it spin more.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
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post #11 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 9:52 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Dave, If this is the case...how much do you think the FELT on the actuator rod contributes to the spinning of the rod itself. I know that the rod fits rather loosely inside of the Input shaft w/o the felt, but with it, it seems that it would be almost certain to turn constantly when the shaft is turning.

I have never considered the felt to be much of a "seal" at all and is maybe there to prevent noise??? But...I wonder if it actually contributes to failure of the slave bearing by making it spin more.
When I did my slave replacement I ordered the felt to install. The problem, on the 99 there is no place to put the felt so I left it out. Also the felt did not fit around the shaft. When I took it apart I did not find any felt on the shaft or a place to put it.

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post #12 of 23 Old Dec 16th, 2009, 10:02 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by garry_kramer
When I did my slave replacement I ordered the felt to install. The problem, on the 99 there is no place to put the felt so I left it out. Also the felt did not fit around the shaft. When I took it apart I did not find any felt on the shaft or a place to put it.

Garry
The grooved rod and felt were a product improvement added some where around 2001 or 2002.

John
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2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
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post #13 of 23 Old Dec 17th, 2009, 7:17 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Dave, If this is the case...how much do you think the FELT on the actuator rod contributes to the spinning of the rod itself. I know that the rod fits rather loosely inside of the Input shaft w/o the felt, but with it, it seems that it would be almost certain to turn constantly when the shaft is turning.

I have never considered the felt to be much of a "seal" at all and is maybe there to prevent noise??? But...I wonder if it actually contributes to failure of the slave bearing by making it spin more.
The felt is certainly not a seal, as fluid can pass through it. I was told by my dealer in San Diego that it was added to reduce noise. The actuation rod can rattle in the bore of the input shaft at times.

The rod rotates all the time the engine is running. The pressure produced by the slave cylinder spring keeps it in tight contact with the diaphragm spring which is always turning when the engine is running. I am pretty convinced that the major cause of slave failure is from the piston turning in the cylinder when the little bearing gets tight or seizes. One of mine was really chewed up from spinning, and I posted pictures of it in the past. That constant spinning is a lot to ask of such a small ball thrust bearing.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #14 of 23 Old Dec 18th, 2009, 11:41 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Maybe instead of a small bearing in the rod BMW should have imbedded a bigger bearing in the diaphragm designed to take the abuse.

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post #15 of 23 Old Dec 19th, 2009, 3:47 am Thread Starter
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Maybe instead of a small bearing in the rod BMW should have imbedded a bigger bearing in the diaphragm designed to take the abuse.
I think that ship sailed with the final drive....


John

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post #16 of 23 Old Dec 19th, 2009, 7:52 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I was actually thinking of ways to move the slave cylinder up and at a right angle to the actuation rod, then putting a lever in the new housing to transfer the action to the rod. Had it somewhat worked out in my head, but the totaling of my LT in late 2004 kinda ended the thought.

My thinking was that removing the spinning action of the rod from the bearing in the end of the piston would remove most of the reason for the cylinder to fail, and even if it did fail for some reason there would be no path for the fluid to get to the clutch, and it would show up on the ground under the bike right away.

If someone makes me a hellava deal on -------- an LT, I may just have to work on this again.
Dave,
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post #17 of 23 Old Dec 19th, 2009, 8:47 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wa1200lt
Dave Dragon, how much tax benefit would you receive if the school had accepted your bike?
As an Administrator of a Tech School, I can tell you that the IRS would probably accept KBB value of the bike. That is what we tell anyone who is donating a car, bike or ATV to our program- unofficially of course.

Bottom line, it's a matter between you and the IRS.

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post #18 of 23 Old Dec 19th, 2009, 8:03 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
Convert back to a manual clutch..

I can't believe no one thought of this...I forgot to get simple.
How do you fix something. The simplest way you can..

It certainly would be easy enough to design a manual assembly to mount where the slave cylinder goes...Just a cover and a lever assembly to push the rod in...

One of you machinist types should build this.........

John
The LT clutch IS a manual clutch. The simple way to fix this is to use seals that don't fail. I have had 3 vehicles prior to my 07 LT that have had hydraulically actuated clutches (86 Jeep Comanche, 87 Kawasaki Voyager XII, 94 Chevy K1500). None have ever failed in any way. The Jeep was 21 years old and have 150+K miles when I finally had a junk dealer haul it away. The Voyager was 17 years old with nearly 50K when I sold it. The Chevy I still have and it is 16 years old with 116K miles.

So, the simple fix is to use seals like everyone else uses that will last 15+ years with no problems. It doesn't get any simpler than that!

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post #19 of 23 Old Dec 20th, 2009, 3:28 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

I seen a Billet after market clutch slave around 150.00 somewhere,,,, anyone used this product, Also im on my second LT and every 30,000 i just replace the clutch slave,,, it is not that expensive...Matthew
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post #20 of 23 Old Dec 20th, 2009, 10:38 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
So, the simple fix is to use seals like everyone else uses that will last 15+ years with no problems. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
I agree, the seals BMW uses are worthless. This is the same with the rear main engine seal. Mine only lasted about 45k.
As for the slave cylinder, didn't BMW come out with a revised design sometime during 2002? The slave failure on this should be less than the originals.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
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post #21 of 23 Old Dec 20th, 2009, 11:30 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
The LT clutch IS a manual clutch. The simple way to fix this is to use seals that don't fail. I have had 3 vehicles prior to my 07 LT that have had hydraulically actuated clutches (86 Jeep Comanche, 87 Kawasaki Voyager XII, 94 Chevy K1500). None have ever failed in any way. The Jeep was 21 years old and have 150+K miles when I finally had a junk dealer haul it away. The Voyager was 17 years old with nearly 50K when I sold it. The Chevy I still have and it is 16 years old with 116K miles.

So, the simple fix is to use seals like everyone else uses that will last 15+ years with no problems. It doesn't get any simpler than that!
None of the vehicle you mentioned have the throw out bearing IN the slave cylinder so your comparison is moot. It is not the seal but rather the bearing that goes and then it takes out the seal.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 23 Old Dec 20th, 2009, 11:31 am
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

[QUOTE=mtrevelino]
As for the slave cylinder, didn't BMW come out with a revised design sometime during 2002? QUOTE]
The improved slave came out after April of 04.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #23 of 23 Old Dec 20th, 2009, 2:40 pm
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Re: A cure for slave cylinder failures...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
None of the vehicle you mentioned have the throw out bearing IN the slave cylinder so your comparison is moot. It is not the seal but rather the bearing that goes and then it takes out the seal.
True, but the throw-out bearings haven't failed on these bikes either. My point remains: the problem isn't the use of hydraulic clutch actuation. It is simply a poorly designed hydraulic actuator. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water. I will take hydraulic actuation over a cable any day.l

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