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post #1 of 70 Old Nov 22nd, 2009, 11:09 am Thread Starter
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Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Does anyone know how to contact the chief engineer at the BMW motorcycle factory whose resonposible for drivetrain / engine design? I would like to know the e-mail address if possible.

Life is all about attitude and the daily challenges it brings, however be who you want to be and say what you feel, because those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter.
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post #2 of 70 Old Nov 22nd, 2009, 8:25 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
Does anyone know how to contact the chief engineer at the BMW motorcycle factory whose resonposible for drivetrain / engine design? I would like to know the e-mail address if possible.
You have a better chance at the pick 6 than contacting RD.
Good Luck !
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post #3 of 70 Old Nov 22nd, 2009, 8:30 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
Does anyone know how to contact the chief engineer at the BMW motorcycle factory whose resonposible for drivetrain / engine design? I would like to know the e-mail address if possible.
Sure, you can contact me directly at [email protected]. What's on your mind?

I monitor this site frequently and am always interested in what our customer's think about our design and engineering.

Please keep in mind that we are about an 8 hour time differential from most parts of the USA here in Germany, so it may take a while to get back with you.


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post #4 of 70 Old Nov 22nd, 2009, 8:44 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

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Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Sure... What's on your mind?...
And, Ron, once you get the long-expected email from the customer, could you re-post it here? We all are curious what compliments they pay you.


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post #5 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 12:47 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
Does anyone know how to contact the chief engineer at the BMW motorcycle factory whose resonposible for drivetrain / engine design? I would like to know the e-mail address if possible.
For what purpose? If it's to bitch about final drives I'm guessing they already know and don't need to hear from someone else about it. Probably best to let that group focus on making them better and for us to deal with the group that's in place to handle our questions, issues and complaints. Your/our avenue as customers into BMW corporate is via BMW Customer Relations. 800-831-1117. All of my dealings with this group have been very effective and satisfying and in most cases resolved my issues, or gave me a reasonable response as to why they/we could not do something. They do escalate into the rest of the organization as warranted and will try to solve your specific problem, assuming you have one to be resolved.

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post #6 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 2:40 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
Sure, you can contact me directly at [email protected]. What's on your mind?

I monitor this site frequently and am always interested in what our customer's think about our design and engineering.

Please keep in mind that we are about an 8 hour time differential from most parts of the USA here in Germany, so it may take a while to get back with you.
How about some info on what is going on with a new LT?

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post #7 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 2:41 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

You mean this guy?



I'm sure that's BMW's drivetrain engineer, based on the number of design awards he's wearing just below his belt . . .

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post #8 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 5:21 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

This is the best thread in ages.
I don't know if the original poster is trying to be funny, is trolling for grins, or is serious and wants to complain to the Chief Engineer, or is serious and has a recommendation for a fix to BMW... or what....??

Me thinks it must be a gag; like my post some time ago inquiring as to what the best snow tire is for the LT. Don't put in a " " in a gag post and some folks take you at your word and try to be genuinely helpful.

On the other hand Erv, if you posted in seriousness please understand that this subject goes way back in the archives on this board. I hate to sound like the search police, (I hate the search police) but if you had read only a fraction of past posts regarding BMW's lack of public response to the final drive issue, you'd understand why your post and this thread are likely to be moved to the humor forum.

Cheers!
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post #9 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 5:29 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
I hate to sound like the search police, (I hate the search police) but if you had read only a fraction of past posts regarding BMW's lack of public response to the final drive issue, you'd understand why your post and this thread are likely to be moved to the humor forum.

Cheers!
Hi Charlie -

Thanks for the reminder - has anyone heard from this guy?!
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...25993#poststop

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post #10 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 5:41 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
Hi Charlie -

Thanks for the reminder - has anyone heard from this guy?!
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...25993#poststop
Well guys I hate to disappoint you but my request to the BMW engineers had nothing to do with the final drive. I've already heard that some have problems and other don't. I guess when it goes out I'll get it fixed. It was about motors and why BMW is thinking about and in-line six verses taking the one we currently have in the LT and just turning it into a boxer eight. Now that would be a powerplant. Have a good day.

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post #11 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 6:00 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Customer Relations is the appropriate contact to use to get into that conversation as well.

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post #12 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 6:30 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
You mean this guy?



I'm sure that's BMW's drivetrain engineer, based on the number of design awards he's wearing just below his belt . . .
Those aren't awards, they are spare parts.

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post #13 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 6:30 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Erv, I doubt anyone is disappointed that you were not thinking about the final drive issue. It is that issue that has made many folks somewhat jaundiced regarding the seeming indifference of BMW to consumer input.
Actually, a couple (few) years ago there were two gentlemen from BMW Germany in the US conducting focus groups looking for input regarding the next generation LT. I attended one such meeting at Max BMW in New York. These gents from Germany asked questions of the group, mostly K1200LT riders. One of the guys was high in the engineering dept, not sure if he qualified as the "head engineer" but he may have been, my memory fades. They were headed to other forums in the US before heading back to Germany so they got input from multiple groups.
They sought input regarding weight, center of gravity, audio system, handling, motor, among other things. One of the last questions asked by the engineer was what kind of motor would the group like to see. I told 'em they could make it anything but a V-twin. Most everyone in the group agreed that the flying brick powerplant was a fine motor. At that time none of us had any idea of the in-line six that was to come.
Sure, contact customer relations and tell them what you think. But I'd venture a guess that such input will be pretty pointless; judging by the rumors the next gen KLT is well past the motor design stage. As far as them actually putting you in contact with someone in engineering who will explain why they make/made the decisions they do, well I wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe some nice customer relations person will thank you for your input and interest though.

addendum, found this:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...39709#poststop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
Well guys I hate to disappoint you but my request to the BMW engineers had nothing to do with the final drive. I've already heard that some have problems and other don't. I guess when it goes out I'll get it fixed. It was about motors and why BMW is thinking about and in-line six verses taking the one we currently have in the LT and just turning it into a boxer eight. Now that would be a powerplant. Have a good day.

Last edited by CharlieVT; Nov 23rd, 2009 at 6:42 pm. Reason: added link to old post
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post #14 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 7:59 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
You mean this guy?



I'm sure that's BMW's drivetrain engineer, based on the number of design awards he's wearing just below his belt . . .
No. That's a German BMW Motorcycle consumer showing off all the parts that fell out of his FD. He got First Place at the show.

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post #15 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 9:37 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
Well guys I hate to disappoint you but my request to the BMW engineers had nothing to do with the final drive. I've already heard that some have problems and other don't. I guess when it goes out I'll get it fixed. It was about motors and why BMW is thinking about and in-line six verses taking the one we currently have in the LT and just turning it into a boxer eight. Now that would be a powerplant. Have a good day.
Have you thought of how WIDE an engine that would be? Making the current engine an opposed 8 would be so wide you could not easily put it in any motorcycle. Remember, the fairings on the LT are pretty wide as it is, adding another 12 inches or so would be pretty prohibitive. To do it and keep the width down would require a total re-design to make the bores much larger in order to greatly reduce the stroke, which would make it a high rpm low torque engine.

BMW seemingly has taken the very realistic approach and took the basic design of the later generation K four cylinder and added 2 more cylinders, spaced very close together. They have already pretty much proven out the design in the 4, pretty easy to ramp it up to a 6, with far less engineering time than to do an opposed 8.

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post #16 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 10:15 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

I'm really curious about the CZ1 cylinder configuration, and why BMW wouldn't use that idea. If you're not familiam with it, the CZ took a four in-line, but staggared the cylinders. In otherwords, one and three up more forward, two and four back and in. See if I can draw this out:

O O
O O

Sort'a like that, only closer. Made the engine a bit more narrow. Was a cool idea. Also used twin crankshafts and three cams.
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post #17 of 70 Old Nov 23rd, 2009, 10:17 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Well that didn't work. Try to imagine the bottom two "O"s, moved to the right, so that the first one was between the top two. Sorry. Here, try this.
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post #18 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 2:01 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

I think there would be serious balance problems with the skewed four. An opposed six presents essentially no inherent balance problem, but my 4 cyl in-line K1200 seems turbine smooth too.

Normally 4 cyl in-line engines would have a lot of second harmonic vibration - unless they had a double speed counterbalance system.

How does the present K bike do it? (I should look at my manual)...........
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post #19 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 2:12 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

IMO if they again increase the weight of the bike I would think they are going to have to change the front rake as it stands its a little dangerous now with applying the breaks when the front wheel is cocked. I can just imagine the same with even more weight being applied to the front end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
I think there would be serious balance problems with the skewed four. An opposed six presents essentially no inherent balance problem, but my 4 cyl in-line K1200 seems turbine smooth too.

Normally 4 cyl in-line engines would have a lot of second harmonic vibration - unless they had a double speed counterbalance system.

How does the present K bike do it? (I should look at my manual)...........

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post #20 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 4:08 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Have you thought of how WIDE an engine that would be? Making the current engine an opposed 8 would be so wide you could not easily put it in any motorcycle. Remember, the fairings on the LT are pretty wide as it is, adding another 12 inches or so would be pretty prohibitive. To do it and keep the width down would require a total re-design to make the bores much larger in order to greatly reduce the stroke, which would make it a high rpm low torque engine.

BMW seemingly has taken the very realistic approach and took the basic design of the later generation K four cylinder and added 2 more cylinders, spaced very close together. They have already pretty much proven out the design in the 4, pretty easy to ramp it up to a 6, with far less engineering time than to do an opposed 8.
Boss Hoss was able to do it.

http://www.bosshoss.com/view_bike.asp?x=BHC3LS3SS#


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post #21 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 4:48 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Wow Serious hotness!! I cannot even begin to wonder what it would be like to twist the throttle of 445 hp while sitting on that.

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post #22 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 5:27 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveno
I'll bet that thing handles great in the twisties.
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post #23 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 7:12 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

I was replying to the person who wondered why BMW did not do a BOXER 8. Not a V-8

A boxer is an opposed cylinder setup, which would be much wider than a V-8.
Quote:
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post #24 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 7:19 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Honda managed to put a boxer into a bike. Making that a tad longer to allow for two mor cylinders can't be that problematic. I don't believe the width would be more than the 6 inline.

That said, a 6 inline is sweeter, quieter, less buzzy (although that 6 cyl in the wing has almost no buzz).

Bottom line: A 8 boxer would be more than possible, but not the best choice in terms of fuel economy.
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post #25 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 7:48 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

The problem with the Boss Hoss is getting those 445 HP onto the ground. You need a solution more like this:



I bet it handles just as well, too.

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post #26 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 8:02 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Morbidelli, Morbidelli, Morbidelli...

If BMW did this it would sell like freakin' hotcakes.

What red blooded American (or European) could possibly resist a Cosworth in a motorcycle?? With today's engine management systems, magnetic suspensions and a simple flip of the switch: your choice of a fire breathing full on race bike - for solo riding - or a tractor like torque monster - to take Mom and the trailer along for the ride.

Gee, I coulda' had a V8!
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post #27 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 9:08 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Yes, the current Slant/4 motors use twin balance shafts to dampen harmonic vibrations.

One of the biggest advantages to a straight six is the fact that it needs no secondary balancing, which minimizes weight, complexity, and HP losses. And BMW knows a thing or two about straight six motors . . .

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post #28 of 70 Old Nov 24th, 2009, 10:31 pm
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Wink Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
I'll bet that thing handles great in the twisties.
And I bet your LT is exciting as hell in a straight line.

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post #29 of 70 Old Nov 25th, 2009, 8:13 am
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I dont post much but read often and always find it all very entertaining and informative. I have problems with my coffee pot in the morning and then I read this and wish I had just 5% of the knowledge and know how to understand it all... looks like its time to do some reading.

Have a great thanksgiving to all...
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post #30 of 70 Old Nov 25th, 2009, 1:32 pm
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Originally Posted by DavidTaylor
For what purpose? If it's to bitch about final drives I'm guessing they already know and don't need to hear from someone else about it. Probably best to let that group focus on making them better and for us to deal with the group that's in place to handle our questions, issues and complaints. Your/our avenue as customers into BMW corporate is via BMW Customer Relations. 800-831-1117. All of my dealings with this group have been very effective and satisfying and in most cases resolved my issues, or gave me a reasonable response as to why they/we could not do something. They do escalate into the rest of the organization as warranted and will try to solve your specific problem, assuming you have one to be resolved.
Hey David, et al,

I just want a Concept 6 to add to the stable!! IMHO what an awesome looking machine, if it performs as well as it looks, I HAVE TO HAVE ONE!!

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post #31 of 70 Old Nov 26th, 2009, 12:02 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

I am sure that whatever they do with the motor will be fine. After all they have a proven track record of making good, reliable engines.
I am hoping that the bike will be more comfortable than my current (05) LT. As large as this bike is there is very little legroom. After a few hours in the saddle my legs are cramped from being jammed into a small area without much opportunity to stretch em out. Lowering the pegs helped, but the bike needs to be more able to accommodate a larger range of physical specimens.

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post #32 of 70 Old Nov 27th, 2009, 8:21 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Try MOPs

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post #33 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 3:21 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveno
I'm with you. There is virtually no reason they couldn't have taken the current 2009 LT- 4 and made it into a boxer eight Sure the engine may have to stick outside the tupperware but who cares it did so on many a BMW bike before and you'd have gobs torque and HP. It be like a butt kicking porche. We need V-Twin Torque with an 8000 RPM redline. Maybe it's time for BMW to look at the new V-Tech

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post #34 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 7:29 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

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Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
There is virtually no reason they couldn't have taken the current 2009 LT- 4 and made it into a boxer eight
They could do it, sure, but it really doesn't make engineering sense. Plus it simply doesn't fit BMW's culture of making large touring bikes that can still be ridden like sport bikes.

Have you ever run the LT well up above 7,000 RPMs? It's a whole different animal up there. Get the redline shifts right and few bikes can keep up with the big beast.

The LT's crank is pretty much all the way at the far right outside of the Brick motor already. So simply doubling it would make the bike not just wide, but trike wide. Even the Boss Hoss pictured has a V8 to minimize width and it's still a huge, heavy, and long bike (meaning it's fast, but handles like a dump truck).

Or they could reduce the flat-8's width by going with a shorter stroke, but that would reduce torque so you'd have to stay with a huge displacement to make up for that, like the 'Wing. Remember that the 'Wing needs 50% more displacement to barely beat an LT off the line, and even then the LT pulls ahead as soon as you get the RPMs up far enough to hit the Brick's power band.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
We need V-Twin Torque with an 8000 RPM redline.
You gotta let go of that V-twin stuff. They're great motors for their intended purpose, but they're simply not high performance motors (no matter how much you spend on go-fast parts).

Besides, the current Slant/4 motors already make more torque and much more horsepower than the LT's Brick, and that's before being tuned for a full-on touring bike. Moving to a Slant/6 will give gobs of torque way down low, but keep a high redline for top-end horsepower. And it will be silky smooth, eliminating the need for balance shafts that the fours require (and that the V-twins simply don't bother with). Plus BMW is using a dry-sump to eliminate bulky oil pans which means the engine can be placed lower in the frame for better slow-speed balance.

So the Slant/6 will be extremely smooth, relatively skinny, lightweight, with a low CoG, and with tons of torque on tap and the ability to rev high for peak power. Trust me folks, this one's a game changer.

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post #35 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 9:29 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Have you ever run the LT well up above 7,000 RPMs? It's a whole different animal up there. Get the redline shifts right and few bikes can keep up with the big beast.

You gotta let go of that V-twin stuff. They're great motors for their intended purpose, but they're simply not high performance motors (no matter how much you spend on go-fast parts).
How much above 7,000 is "well above?"

You don't consider the Ducati 1198 Corse or the Suzuki SV1000 to be high performance motorcycles? :-)

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post #36 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 9:58 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
How much above 7,000 is "well above?"
Until you're banging off the rev limiter. I don't remember the redline on the LT, but there is a huge power spike around 7K rpms and you can definitely feel it if you're riding it like a proper inline-4 and using the entire rev range. These engines will do just fine puttering around in the lower rev ranges, but they do much better when wrung out fully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
You don't consider the Ducati 1198 Corse or the Suzuki SV1000 to be high performance motorcycles? :-)
Those are L-twins. Yeah, I know it's just a 90° V-twin, but that configuration has been designed to minimize primary imbalances, and the entire bike has been focused on performance rather than the typical V-twin "look and sound." Besides, those (and the similar Aprilias) are really niche-market bikes, as the true hypersports machines are pretty much all high-reving inline fours.

Besides, the original comments were about making a huge, slow-revving V8 to get maximum torque, and I've already pointed out that the Slant/6 will give more torque while still allowing a competent rider to play in the upper rev ranges.

Ain't it great that we have all these excellent choices out there?

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post #37 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 10:52 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kra961
IMO if they again increase the weight of the bike I would think they are going to have to change the front rake as it stands its a little dangerous now with applying the breaks when the front wheel is cocked.
That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in. As a result, when the brakes are applied, unlike a conventional fork which absorbs the bike's momentum by compressing the fork springs, there is no momentum absorption by the Telelever spring (because ther is essentially no dive to compress the spring). Instead, if the LT's wheel is cocked, it generates a moment about the front tire contact patch which tries to rotate the bike toward the ground.

You could make the LT weigh only 300 lbs., and the Telelever would still make the bike want to topple if the brakes are applied at low speed with the wheel turned.

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post #38 of 70 Old Nov 29th, 2009, 10:55 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Until you're banging off the rev limiter. I don't remember the redline on the LT, but there is a huge power spike around 7K rpms and you can definitely feel it if you're riding it like a proper inline-4 and using the entire rev range. These engines will do just fine puttering around in the lower rev ranges, but they do much better when wrung out fully.

Those are L-twins. Yeah, I know it's just a 90° V-twin, but that configuration has been designed to minimize primary imbalances, and the entire bike has been focused on performance rather than the typical V-twin "look and sound." Besides, those (and the similar Aprilias) are really niche-market bikes, as the true hypersports machines are pretty much all high-reving inline fours.

Besides, the original comments were about making a huge, slow-revving V8 to get maximum torque, and I've already pointed out that the Slant/6 will give more torque while still allowing a competent rider to play in the upper rev ranges.

Ain't it great that we have all these excellent choices out there?
My 07 is redlined at 8K so you can't get that far above 7K. :-)

Yes, a 90 degree twin is a V-twin. There isn't much regarding performance that is inherent to the engine configuration. It really is a function more of cylinder head design, intake system design, exhaust system design, etc. Certainly, when you start talking large displacements a twin is at an inherent disadvantage as the pistons simply have to be large and have a long stroke so that will limit RPM.

Yes, choices are good and I'm looking forward to a new LT, although my 07 won't be ready to trade anytime soon. Also, I wouldn't dare but a first year edition of a new model!

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post #39 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 8:14 am
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Ahhh Thank you..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in. As a result, when the brakes are applied, unlike a conventional fork which absorbs the bike's momentum by compressing the fork springs, there is no momentum absorption by the Telelever spring (because ther is essentially no dive to compress the spring). Instead, if the LT's wheel is cocked, it generates a moment about the front tire contact patch which tries to rotate the bike toward the ground.

You could make the LT weigh only 300 lbs., and the Telelever would still make the bike want to topple if the brakes are applied at low speed with the wheel turned.

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.

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post #40 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 8:22 am
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in. As a result, when the brakes are applied, unlike a conventional fork which absorbs the bike's momentum by compressing the fork springs, there is no momentum absorption by the Telelever spring (because ther is essentially no dive to compress the spring). Instead, if the LT's wheel is cocked, it generates a moment about the front tire contact patch which tries to rotate the bike toward the ground.

You could make the LT weigh only 300 lbs., and the Telelever would still make the bike want to topple if the brakes are applied at low speed with the wheel turned.
I read somewhere that the force to one side is more because of the mass of the bike being forced forward and pivoting on the line of the front wheel axle, which when tilted to one side gives the side force. The contact patch of the wheel does not change much when the wheel is turned, but the angle of the axle does.

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post #41 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 11:05 am
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

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Originally Posted by Caveno
OMG!

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post #42 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 3:43 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

A boxer 8? I have one question about that: Where would you put your feet? I don't think you could do a Boxer 6 and even a Boxer 4 would be cause for some cramped and hot toes.
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post #43 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 3:55 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in.
Another consequence of the Telelever is that in a head-on crash, the Telelever arm tends to make the front of the bike "lift" somewhat, increasing the odds that the rider will get thrown up and over the obstacle. Where they land after that is still unknown, but it is an interesting theory.

Personally, I'd rather put up with a little slow-speed instability as a trade off for the LT's high-speed handling prowess. A skilled rider really can push that big girl around like a sport bike.

Ken
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post #44 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 3:56 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109
A boxer 8? I have one question about that: Where would you put your feet? I don't think you could do a Boxer 6 and even a Boxer 4 would be cause for some cramped and hot toes.
Where do 'Wing riders put their feet? That's basically a Boxer-6 engine. Then again, I do hear complaints from 'Wingers of engine heat and cramped ergonomics . . .

Ken
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post #45 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 4:10 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

First Mark sez: That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in. As a result, when the brakes are applied, unlike a conventional fork which absorbs the bike's momentum by compressing the fork springs, there is no momentum absorption by the Telelever spring (because ther is essentially no dive to compress the spring). Instead, if the LT's wheel is cocked, it generates a moment about the front tire contact patch which tries to rotate the bike toward the ground.

You could make the LT weigh only 300 lbs., and the Telelever would still make the bike want to topple if the brakes are applied at low speed with the wheel turned.

Aha sez me, how come I couldn't figure that out in the past 180K

Then David sez I read somewhere that the force to one side is more because of the mass of the bike being forced forward and pivoting on the line of the front wheel axle, which when tilted to one side gives the side force. The contact patch of the wheel does not change much when the wheel is turned, but the angle of the axle does.

And I thought how nice to be again in the company of such smart folks, and friends.

Then I'm thinking about the fact that I have significant dive when I apply only the rear brake, (99 non linked, no assist) and yet don't get that dive when the front brakes are applied.

Inquiring minds want to know and apologize for the hijack.

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post #46 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 4:15 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Another consequence of the Telelever is that in a head-on crash, the Telelever arm tends to make the front of the bike "lift" somewhat, increasing the odds that the rider will get thrown up and over the obstacle. Where they land after that is still unknown, but it is an interesting theory.

Personally, I'd rather put up with a little slow-speed instability as a trade off for the LT's high-speed handling prowess. A skilled rider really can push that big girl around like a sport bike.
I feel that Don Arthur benefited greatly from this built in "feature". Me too! When I crashed my first LT, I ran into a 5 foot high embankment, but ended up in a Manzanita bush on top of the bank. That was better than being thrown into the bank, even though a limb of the bush penetrated the back of my leather jacket and gave me three fractured vertebrae. I always wore a back protector after that.

The Telelever will actually kick the front of the bike up pretty hard in a big front hit.

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post #47 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 5:00 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
That is not a consequence of weight, it is the result of the Telelever suspension, which, in the LT version, has virtually no dive engineered in. As a result, when the brakes are applied, unlike a conventional fork which absorbs the bike's momentum by compressing the fork springs, there is no momentum absorption by the Telelever spring (because ther is essentially no dive to compress the spring). Instead, if the LT's wheel is cocked, it generates a moment about the front tire contact patch which tries to rotate the bike toward the ground.

You could make the LT weigh only 300 lbs., and the Telelever would still make the bike want to topple if the brakes are applied at low speed with the wheel turned.
Yes it will dump on you if you have the front wheel turned ever so slightly while appling the brakes. I did it on my last road trip with only about 1000 miles on the bike and my wife on back. Felt like a complete idiot and to boot forgot to turn the engine off as she fell on its left side. I just coulodn't hold it. She still runs so I hope I didn't ruin the mains and rod bearings.

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post #48 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 5:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
They could do it, sure, but it really doesn't make engineering sense. Plus it simply doesn't fit BMW's culture of making large touring bikes that can still be ridden like sport bikes.

Have you ever run the LT well up above 7,000 RPMs? It's a whole different animal up there. Get the redline shifts right and few bikes can keep up with the big beast.

The LT's crank is pretty much all the way at the far right outside of the Brick motor already. So simply doubling it would make the bike not just wide, but trike wide. Even the Boss Hoss pictured has a V8 to minimize width and it's still a huge, heavy, and long bike (meaning it's fast, but handles like a dump truck).

Or they could reduce the flat-8's width by going with a shorter stroke, but that would reduce torque so you'd have to stay with a huge displacement to make up for that, like the 'Wing. Remember that the 'Wing needs 50% more displacement to barely beat an LT off the line, and even then the LT pulls ahead as soon as you get the RPMs up far enough to hit the Brick's power band.

You gotta let go of that V-twin stuff. They're great motors for their intended purpose, but they're simply not high performance motors (no matter how much you spend on go-fast parts).

Besides, the current Slant/4 motors already make more torque and much more horsepower than the LT's Brick, and that's before being tuned for a full-on touring bike. Moving to a Slant/6 will give gobs of torque way down low, but keep a high redline for top-end horsepower. And it will be silky smooth, eliminating the need for balance shafts that the fours require (and that the V-twins simply don't bother with). Plus BMW is using a dry-sump to eliminate bulky oil pans which means the engine can be placed lower in the frame for better slow-speed balance.

So the Slant/6 will be extremely smooth, relatively skinny, lightweight, with a low CoG, and with tons of torque on tap and the ability to rev high for peak power. Trust me folks, this one's a game changer.
No I have never taken this bike to 7000 RPM but I have heard many people say that while I am on a winedy road with 180 degrees turns and uphill afterwards I should have had the bike in 3rd gear between 4000-7000 RPM instead of driving it like I would a V-Twin between 2000- 5200 RPM. Got some transtioning to do here. I just can't imagine reving this bike to 7000 RPM without imagining scattering my low end along side the higway. Oh well, I guess we'll get use to the high rev's one of these days. This forum seems to provides a lot of good information to newbee's to the BMW world. Thanks for all the advise.

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post #49 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 5:41 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Coming from a Twin myself I can say it takes some getting used to keep the rev's up instead of down low where the Twins like to run. She's a whole different lady in 3rd at 5 to 6.4 K and she makes the most ungodly sound when you really twit her tail. LOL its so much fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
No I have never taken this bike to 7000 RPM but I have heard many people say that while I am on a winedy road with 180 degrees turns and uphill afterwards I should have had the bike in 3rd gear between 4000-7000 RPM instead of driving it like I would a V-Twin between 2000- 5200 RPM. Got some transtioning to do here. I just can't imagine reving this bike to 7000 RPM without imagining scattering my low end along side the higway. Oh well, I guess we'll get use to the high rev's one of these days. This forum seems to provides a lot of good information to newbee's to the BMW world. Thanks for all the advise.

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post #50 of 70 Old Nov 30th, 2009, 5:48 pm
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Re: Contacting BMW Chief Engineer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWK1200LT
No I have never taken this bike to 7000 RPM but I have heard many people say that while I am on a winedy road with 180 degrees turns and uphill afterwards I should have had the bike in 3rd gear between 4000-7000 RPM instead of driving it like I would a V-Twin between 2000- 5200 RPM.
Yeah, that's a common theme from those transitioning off a V-twin.

These bikes are made to be run hard, so don't be afraid of the throttle. Two huge, long-stroke pistons will give torque, but prefer to be run slower. Four smaller, shorter-stroke pistons just love to sing at higher rpms. It's just the nature of the engine design.

Don't bog the Brick down and she'll reward you, big time.

Fortunately, BMW has also given us the suspension and handling to go with the higher-performance motor, and a bit of luxury to boot.

Ken
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'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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