Mirror teather vs. Screw - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 5:32 pm Thread Starter
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Mirror teather vs. Screw

Upon buying my baby a year ago, thanks to the wisdom of this forum, one of the first things I did was to tether my mirrors. A couple months ago when I was in the middle lane of the X bronx distress way on a beautiful, traffic packed Sunday, I hit a crater which rattled my teeth and knocked both mirrors off the supports. As they dangled from the tethers I was thinking how lucky I was that I had read the posts and saved my mirrors. I first thought about slamming them back into place - not a good idea while traveling at 65 on a busy highway. Next I figured I'd just pull over and put them back - great idea except I had NO rearview exposure and the breakdown lane was 4' wide and as Josey Wales said "dying ain't much of a livin'". Hit the next crater and the left side tether broke (shame on me) and I still couldn't see behind me. Well, finally got over, attached the right side and headed home. Reflecting on that episode it hit me - wow that took some time, that saving a few hundred dollars and the anxiety of the people behind me as the mirror bounced down the road paled in comparison to the fact I had lost all rear visibility. Yipes I thought, I could have been killed. So I ask you, what is the down side of putting a screw through the air intake of the mirror into the cowl to keep the damn thing on the bike? Won't see it so the asthetics will be fine, won't pop off when hitting a bump, might break when the baby goes to sleep instead of coming off.
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post #2 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 7:38 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

I can't really comment on whether to permanently attach the mirrors to your bike, but I would think that might cause even more damage (mirrors and body work?). I would offer one thought, though. I had my mirrors detach (tethered, fortunatly) a couple of times when hitting potholes until reading on this forum about greasing the studs so the mirrors seat more completely (not exactly an intuitive procedure ). I did that and haven't lost one since. If you haven't done this, you might want to try it before the permanent attachment solution.

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post #3 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 7:46 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Along with the grease the mirrows need a slight gap between the body and the mirrows. The flexing of the plastic pannels can dislodge them.

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post #4 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 8:18 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

The only downside I could see to attaching the mirrors with a screw is if someone working on the bike wasn't expecting them. Could a well-intentioned technician cause some damage when trying to remove the mirrors, thinking they needed some additional effort to be removed?

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post #5 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 8:27 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

A leetle off-topic, butt not by much.

Wonder what model year will they introduce the remote controlled, hinged rear-view mirrors on the LT, similar to the system on many cages?? AND, incorporate the Muth Mirror turn-signal system??
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post #6 of 41 Old Nov 7th, 2009, 9:17 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGeo
Upon buying my baby a year ago, thanks to the wisdom of this forum, one of the first things I did was to tether my mirrors. A couple months ago when I was in the middle lane of the X bronx distress way on a beautiful, traffic packed Sunday, I hit a crater which rattled my teeth and knocked both mirrors off the supports. As they dangled from the tethers I was thinking how lucky I was that I had read the posts and saved my mirrors. I first thought about slamming them back into place - not a good idea while traveling at 65 on a busy highway. Next I figured I'd just pull over and put them back - great idea except I had NO rearview exposure and the breakdown lane was 4' wide and as Josey Wales said "dying ain't much of a livin'". Hit the next crater and the left side tether broke (shame on me) and I still couldn't see behind me. Well, finally got over, attached the right side and headed home. Reflecting on that episode it hit me - wow that took some time, that saving a few hundred dollars and the anxiety of the people behind me as the mirror bounced down the road paled in comparison to the fact I had lost all rear visibility. Yipes I thought, I could have been killed. So I ask you, what is the down side of putting a screw through the air intake of the mirror into the cowl to keep the damn thing on the bike? Won't see it so the asthetics will be fine, won't pop off when hitting a bump, might break when the baby goes to sleep instead of coming off.
There is a thread from several years ago of someone doing that with pictures of how he did it. I think he used a heavy plastic screw that would possible sheer off upon impact.

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post #7 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 2:16 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGeo
paled in comparison to the fact I had lost all rear visibility. Yipes I thought, I could have been killed.
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? Over here it is known as the "Lifesaver" for good reason and does not rely on mirrors. Not doing it will be an instant fail in a UK motorcycle driving test. In fact a great many motorcycles do not even have mirrors to start with. I agree that mirrors are useful, but only as a backup, due to blind spots.

I particular, changing lanes relying on mirrors alone is a collision waiting to happen.

Just pussin' through.
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post #8 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 4:40 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

As my mirros are heavier (and more expensive) than stock mirrors due to the Muth signal mirrors and additional LED turn signals I decided to make 100 % sure that I will not loose them.

At first I tethered them with a small steel line that fishermen use for their lures or trolls. (Of curse I had also elecric cables for the turn signals that would act as tetheres.)

But still I disliked the idea of having my mirros dangling on the side of the bike in case they would come loose so I used the screws.

My original idea was to use 5 mm plastic screws but as I could not find them without some efforts I decided to use regular allen screws. However, I used a hacksaw to make the neck of the screw head real thin in order to make sure it breaks from there in case something unexpected happens...
And this happened. In fact this unexpected happened in Tennesee just the previous night we arrived to CCR 06 in Braselton. I was making a real tight U-turn on a slight uphill and I dropped the bike. The left side mirror hit the ground, and the back of the mirror broke since my trimmed allen screw did not break. Conclusion: It is really hard to estimate how thin the steel screw should actually be in order to make it work like a safety plug.
Luckily I was able to glue the mirror frame with some epoxy and when I got home I finally searched for the plastic screws.

So, you can use screws in addition to the tetheres to secure the mirros but ONLY USE PLASTIC SCREWS.

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

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post #9 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 6:21 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Agree, mirrors are no substitute for looking over the shoulder. However, maybe you've never experienced the Cross Bronx Expressway, crappy road and drivers to match. I've ridden in England and I don't believe you have anything that bad. Only place I've found worse was Lagos (Nigeria). A rider needs every possible resource/advantage to stay upright on the X-Bronx. I don't know if there is anything that will keep the mirrors on if you hit one of the craters on the X-Bronx. I've had mine come off plenty of times and fortunately, the tethers kept them from joining the other litter on the roadway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? Over here it is known as the "Lifesaver" for good reason and does not rely on mirrors. Not doing it will be an instant fail in a UK motorcycle driving test. In fact a great many motorcycles do not even have mirrors to start with. I agree that mirrors are useful, but only as a backup, due to blind spots.

I particular, changing lanes relying on mirrors alone is a collision waiting to happen.

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post #10 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 8:22 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? Over here it is known as the "Lifesaver" for good reason and does not rely on mirrors. Not doing it will be an instant fail in a UK motorcycle driving test. In fact a great many motorcycles do not even have mirrors to start with. I agree that mirrors are useful, but only as a backup, due to blind spots.

I particular, changing lanes relying on mirrors alone is a collision waiting to happen.
MUST HAVE MIRRORS!!!

Here in the Colonies they also teach you to use those wonderfully reflective mirrors. Nice to see what's coming up behind you as you ride down the highway in case you need to get out of the way. Same thing sitting at an intersection. Good to know if the guy coming up behind you is going to stop or just blow right through you. You might at least have a chance getting out of the way if you can see 'em coming!

Changing lanes? Check your mirrors, turn your head far enough to check the blind spot, signal, and make your move.

Riding down the road use your rear views to gather information about what is going on behind you. The 'behind you' stuff can kill you just as dead as the 'beside you' and 'in front of you' stuff once it catches up to you.

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post #11 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 7:47 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

I always look over my shoulder when changing lanes or turning. I want to know they'll see me when I flip them off.
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post #12 of 41 Old Nov 8th, 2009, 8:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? Over here it is known as the "Lifesaver" for good reason and does not rely on mirrors. Not doing it will be an instant fail in a UK motorcycle driving test. In fact a great many motorcycles do not even have mirrors to start with. I agree that mirrors are useful, but only as a backup, due to blind spots.

I particular, changing lanes relying on mirrors alone is a collision waiting to happen.
Apparently, the roads and drivers in Jolly Old England are quite a bit different than in the colonies. First, we drive on the proper side of the road. Second, I use my mirrors to maintain primary rear/side view knowledge. Perhaps in England you have enough time to look over your shoulder and back with absolutely no prior knowledge of what is around you, we don't normally have that privilege. So brother, if you feel safe riding with no mirrors, I tip my hat to you. With the Chinese coming up with a $150 replacement for a broken mirror I believe I'll try the screw solution. My girl has taken a nap 3 times on me and never popped a mirror.
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post #13 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 7:09 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

I've seen RT mirrors installed on the handle bars (already have the holes in place) of LTs for those that don't like to look down for their mirrors. Not a bad looking mod either and solves the problem with the loss of a mirror.
BTW: I ALWAYS "look to live" before a lane change. Just a long time habit I have.

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post #14 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 9:54 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Cable Ties, they're the answer . . . . there are two lugs, one inside the mirror body, one inside the housing it attaches on the fairing . . . cable tie loosely, and you'll never loose a mirror again . . . works for me!
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post #15 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 11:56 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGeo
Apparently, the roads and drivers in Jolly Old England are quite a bit different than in the colonies. First, we drive on the proper side of the road.
No, you drive on the right.
And it's not "Jolly Old England" anymore, we have Golden Brown laying it all to waste his scorched earth policy, before he is out on his ear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGeo
Second, I use my mirrors to maintain primary rear/side view knowledge.
Not possible. A mirror view is incomplete and does not give you spatial awareness. A quick look over your shoulder will complete the picture, especially when overtaking or changing lanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGeo
Perhaps in England you have enough time to look over your shoulder and back with absolutely no prior knowledge of what is around you,
Perhaps in America, if you don't have time to look behind to save your life, you may be driving too fast and too close?

Mirrors are useful I agree, but if you are incapable of riding without them, then it's time for a little brush up training. It's you that will come off worst when you pull into the path of someone trying to overtake. I did that just once, to make me realise how stupid it is not to use the lifesaver.
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post #16 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 1:20 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? Over here it is known as the "Lifesaver" for good reason and does not rely on mirrors. Not doing it will be an instant fail in a UK motorcycle driving test. In fact a great many motorcycles do not even have mirrors to start with. I agree that mirrors are useful, but only as a backup, due to blind spots.

I particular, changing lanes relying on mirrors alone is a collision waiting to happen.
You need to depend on your mirrors when driving. The need to turn your head is not the sign of a good driver/rider. When you turn your head, you take your eyes off of what's in front of you which is dangerous.

It's a mirror, they don't fail and they don't lie, there is no problem depending on them.

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post #17 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 1:29 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveno
You need to depend on your mirrors when driving. The need to turn your head is not the sign of a good driver/rider. When you turn your head, you take your eyes off of what's in front of you which is dangerous.

What a load of (dangerous) rubbish. Thank heaven I am unlikely to encounter you on my travels. Mirrors are SECONDARY.

Once again, if you do not have the time for PROPER observation, you are DRIVING TOO CLOSE and TOO FAST.

Just pussin' through.
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post #18 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 1:45 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

AJ, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that one needs to turn ones head and look before changing lanes. I personally, as do others, use the mirrors extensively in order to know what's happening behind and beside me as I tool down the road. I do not turn my head 180 degrees to look behind me in order to identify potential sources of peril coming up behind me in the same lane. I use my mirrors for this purpose. Mirrors are also useful to see what's coming up beside you.

To change lanes? Check the mirrors for what's coming up behind and to the side, signal, TURN YOUR HEAD AND LOOK, and if all's clear make your lane change and get on with life.

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post #19 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 3:22 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by wa1200lt
AJ, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that one needs to turn ones head and look before changing lanes. I personally, as do others, use the mirrors extensively in order to know what's happening behind and beside me as I tool down the road. I do not turn my head 180 degrees to look behind me in order to identify potential sources of peril coming up behind me in the same lane. I use my mirrors for this purpose. Mirrors are also useful to see what's coming up beside you.

To change lanes? Check the mirrors for what's coming up behind and to the side, signal, TURN YOUR HEAD AND LOOK, and if all's clear make your lane change and get on with life.
That's exactly the point I was making.

I was just horrified that someone could b e so traumatised by the loss of mirror vision that "he could have been killed". :-)

Just pussin' through.
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post #20 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 4:12 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

I can only say if you have every driven anything long, you will drive ONLY with mirrors. I trust my mirrors explicitly. On the bike I will glance but I never fully turn my head. You ever driven a RV, Tractor Trailer, Deuce and a Half with a 1/2 ton generator trailer on the rear?

Yes granted on a bike you are able to see by turning your head, but why would you, a quick glance if you even do that. If you are not scanning your mirrors you are not driving the way I was taught. I can see both in my side view and my convex mirrors all I need to see.

Each to their own, but I will live or die with my mirrors. 35 years of driving with a license and my mirrors have never lied to me yet.

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post #21 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 4:23 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
Each to their own, but I will live or die with my mirrors. 35 years of driving with a license and my mirrors have never lied to me yet.
Of course not, but mirrors only give you part of the story. That was brought home to me when I started an overtake manouvre after checking my mirrors. I was about to ride into a car that had been in my blind spot. So now even in the car, van or whatever, my last action before moving off or changing lanes, is the Lifesaver. You can't have too much information.

Just pussin' through.
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post #22 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 4:56 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAF
I can only say if you have every driven anything long, you will drive ONLY with mirrors. I trust my mirrors explicitly. On the bike I will glance but I never fully turn my head. You ever driven a RV, Tractor Trailer, Deuce and a Half with a 1/2 ton generator trailer on the rear?

Yes granted on a bike you are able to see by turning your head, but why would you, a quick glance if you even do that. If you are not scanning your mirrors you are not driving the way I was taught. I can see both in my side view and my convex mirrors all I need to see.

Each to their own, but I will live or die with my mirrors. 35 years of driving with a license and my mirrors have never lied to me yet.
I have to agree you Lee. Mirrors & spot mirrors are what I count on. When you drive a big rig that's all you have. I'm blind in my left eye & have limited neck movement. Another thing I have noticed as I get older when I do turn my head I seem to drift in that direction. That never happened when I was younger.

My biggest problem is in the rain when the mirrors are wet I have to do the straight ahead then left mirror straight ahead then right mirror look much more often.

The way I was taught is straight ahead left mirror straight ahead right mirror straight ahead gauges straight ahead & back to left mirror & keep the rhythm while you drive or ride.

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post #23 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 7:54 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

I would like to add to this post the mirrors are only as good as the person setting them. Unfortunately, the range of motion with the mirrors on an LT is not adequate to get an expanded view of the blind spot beside you. On vehicles, I've noticed many people set the mirror so they see the side of their vehicle. This is incorrect, as you already know where the side of your vehicle is. The mirror should be set so the side of your vehicle is just out of view of the mirror. This sets the mirror at an angle to more accurately see what is beside you. THIS DOES NOT ELIMINATE THE NEED TO ALSO MAKE A QUICK CHECK WITH A TURN OF YOUR HEAD. However, it will expose more of the blind spot danger area to your vision.

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post #24 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 9:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

First, I NEVER turn my head where my chin passes my shoulder, a quick glance is all that is necessary as I already am aware of my environment BECAUSE OF THE MIRRORS. To do so would be certainly unsafe at best and suicide at worst. If you are riding and aren't aware of what's in your mirrors at ALL times I certainly wouldn't want to be sharing the road. If they drive without mirrors in England it might explain the drop in population. I find it unbelievable that an instructor would think that it is safer to ride with no mirrors and turn your head than to ride with mirrors and not turn your head. Just incredible.

Well, back to the screw vs tether. I believe I'll screw them in this weekend. AJ and the X Bronx have convinced me that mirrors are absolutely essential to survival. Now that the Chinese have come up with a $150 replacement, of which I have one, the cost factor on breaking a mirror is a non-issue.
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post #25 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 9:36 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Anyone who thinks riding with mirrors is dangerous, you shouldn't be driving, let alone riding a motorcycle. New and inexperienced drivers tend to turn there heads because they don't know how to use there mirrors. If you think they're unsafe, then you simply don't know how to use them.

Yeah, there's a blind spot, and u need to learn how to check it using the mirrors, it's that simple. Besides using them when you switch lanes, you use them to know what's around you. I'm always looking at them and always know what cars are around me, and when it comes time to switch lanes, I'm 100% confident that I'm not going to be hitting anyone.

Ajlelectronics - i think i'm a very aware and cautious driver, it's silly that you'd be afraid to be by me on the road cause I don't look back. How many accidents have you got into?

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post #26 of 41 Old Nov 9th, 2009, 11:16 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
Do they not teach you to turn your head and look behind you in America? ...
AJ, you are missing the point. They do not teach us anything.

Let me explain how it works in the US:

"Here is a little booklet. Read it to pass a test of some irrelevant, leightweight questions.

"Now, get on the little scooter, make a feeble turn in a parking lot - we call it test range - and try not to fall over.

"OK, here is your license. Congratulations."


And, with due respect to all who posted in this thread - before you all jump up and flame me - I did take driver's and moto tests in Europe and again in the States. I know what I am talking about. I am even up to date: I taught (yes, you can do that here!) a relative's daughter to drive last year: I thought she was not ready, but she passed in flying colors. Apparently: good enough.

To say that I am dismayed by the lack of knowledge and of real-life testing, would be an understatement of the century.

In case you did not notice, the low level of skill required to get either a car or a motorcycle license stateside is a personal pet peeve of mine. Don't you just get me started!

And to those who write that relying only on mirrors is fine and doing the head-check is suicidal: good for you! You must be much better riders than I am. My hat's off to you. I just returned from a little 1100-mile weekend loop to West Virginia, running about 500 miles today on my return trip - out of which, after playing on some mountain back roads and gravel trails, some 300 miles were on the freeway. I'd say, I had someone sneak into my blind spot at least 2 or 3 times today. Would not see them without the sideways glance.

Robert in Northern NJ

'09 R12GS, '08 R12RT, '03 R1150RT, '01 F650GS - time to thin the herd?


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post #27 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 9:54 am
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt
I've seen RT mirrors installed on the handle bars (already have the holes in place) of LTs for those that don't like to look down for their mirrors. Not a bad looking mod either and solves the problem with the loss of a mirror.
BTW: I ALWAYS "look to live" before a lane change. Just a long time habit I have.

Jer
I have the RT mirrors on my LT and don't even use the stock ones any more. They look like they belong there and have much better visibility. If someone made a cover that replaced the stock mirrors I would do it in a second.

The clip on my right mirror is broken for the second time. I did the epoxy fix once already but after the thing popped off again it broke again.

On another note, I have benefitted greatly from this forum and truly appreciate the wisdom and selflessness of those who are here to help.

But lately I have noticed I have had to be extra carful not to get flamed on this forum for the slightest perceived difference of opinion from some of the other users. It has made me visit & post much less and perhaps that is the intent. I belong to two Harley forums and a Suzuki forum and I have never seen this type of ill will among fellow riders. Who does it benefit taking a thread so far off course due to this type of nonsensical banter? I know I’ll probably get flamed just for saying this, but “Can’t we all just get along”?
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post #28 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 10:55 am
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

The drive tests are different in every state of the union. In Wisconsin, you get a microphone in your helmet and the tester is driving behind you--telling you what to do and where to go. He will take you through heavy traffic, ordering you through manuvers of all kinds and will watch for every move you make--or don't make.
I think our tests are as good as any out there-anywhere.





Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker
AJ, you are missing the point. They do not teach us anything.

Let me explain how it works in the US:

"Here is a little booklet. Read it to pass a test of some irrelevant, leightweight questions.

"Now, get on the little scooter, make a feeble turn in a parking lot - we call it test range - and try not to fall over.

"OK, here is your license. Congratulations."


And, with due respect to all who posted in this thread - before you all jump up and flame me - I did take driver's and moto tests in Europe and again in the States. I know what I am talking about. I am even up to date: I taught (yes, you can do that here!) a relative's daughter to drive last year: I thought she was not ready, but she passed in flying colors. Apparently: good enough.

To say that I am dismayed by the lack of knowledge and of real-life testing, would be an understatement of the century.

In case you did not notice, the low level of skill required to get either a car or a motorcycle license stateside is a personal pet peeve of mine. Don't you just get me started!

And to those who write that relying only on mirrors is fine and doing the head-check is suicidal: good for you! You must be much better riders than I am. My hat's off to you. I just returned from a little 1100-mile weekend loop to West Virginia, running about 500 miles today on my return trip - out of which, after playing on some mountain back roads and gravel trails, some 300 miles were on the freeway. I'd say, I had someone sneak into my blind spot at least 2 or 3 times today. Would not see them without the sideways glance.
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post #29 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 3:02 pm
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesn
...In Wisconsin, you get a microphone in your helmet and the tester is driving behind you--telling you what to do and where to go. He will take you through heavy traffic...
Now, that's much better. Looks like you guys do it right.

Robert in Northern NJ

'09 R12GS, '08 R12RT, '03 R1150RT, '01 F650GS - time to thin the herd?


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post #30 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 6:26 pm
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker
AJ, you are missing the point. They do not teach us anything.

Let me explain how it works in the US:

[I]"Here is a little booklet. Read it to pass a test of some irrelevant, leightweight questions.

"Now, get on the little scooter, make a feeble turn in a parking lot - we call it test range - and try not to fall over.

"OK, here is your license. Congratulations."

....
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesn
The drive tests are different in every state of the union. In Wisconsin, you get a microphone in your helmet and the tester is driving behind you--telling you what to do and where to go. He will take you through heavy traffic, ordering you through manuvers of all kinds and will watch for every move you make--or don't make.
I think our tests are as good as any out there-anywhere.
I was living in Mississippi in 2007. My son came over on holiday at Easter and while he was there, he decided to get a driving licence. (He has a UK motorcycle licence, but he'd never driven a car.)

We got him a 'learner's permit' and he had 3 20 minute sessions driving my Ford Ranger truck and another 3 driving his mother's car. Then he went back to take the test. There was (apparently) a minimum period which was supposed to elapse between getting the learner permit and taking the test, but that only applied to 16-yr olds.

The examiner called his name and he went outside to where the car was parked (in the lot; nose-in to the wall.)

5 minutes later, he was back. How did you do? I asked. "I passed." he said.

"What did you do?" I asked.

"I reversed out of the parking place, drove to the parking lot exit, stopped, turned right onto the road, turned right at the next intersection (about 75 yards away) turned right again 100 yards later, right again a 100 yards after that, right at the next intersection then 25 yards later I turned right again into the parking lot and parked in the same place I'd been in 5 minutes earlier."

"Fine! " said I. "But just remember this when you're driving down the roads of Mississippi: All the other drivers have been tested to those same rigorous standards."

More worrying, perhaps: That driving licence was valid in the UK. (I got him to promise that not only would he take a UK driving test, but he would also take IAM training.

Standards of tests (and driving/riding standards) vary considerably from state to state and from country to country.

In Germany, if you want to learn to drive or to ride, you don't go and get a learner's permit, go and practice, then take a test. - You go to a driving school, where you will study (and be examined on) the theory. Your 'practical' sessions - taught by a qualified instructor - will include day, night, bad weather, freeway and town driving/riding. Getting a licence is a long and expensive process, but by the time a student gets a licence, he has some idea of what she's going to encounter on the roads.

Manuel
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post #31 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 7:03 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygret
... I know I’ll probably get flamed just for saying this, but “Can’t we all just get along”?
Hear, hear!

And now, for my two cents' worth on part of this discussion: I rarely have to do the shoulder check because I have 4" convex mirrors mounted on the outboard edge of both mirrors on my LT. They show everything up to the midpoint of the bike. If there is nothing at my side and nothing in my mirror it's safe to change lanes. I have had these mirrors on every vehicle I've owned for many years and don't know why everyone doesn't take a look at them. $2.00 at any truck stop or auto parts store. The ones I use look like this but they are not mounted on a tilted base.

Howard Schisler
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post #32 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 7:19 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Hear, hear!

And now, for my two cents' worth on part of this discussion: I rarely have to do the shoulder check because I have 4" convex mirrors mounted on the outboard edge of both mirrors on my LT. They show everything up to the midpoint of the bike. If there is nothing at my side and nothing in my mirror it's safe to change lanes. I have had these mirrors on every vehicle I've owned for many years and don't know why everyone doesn't take a look at them. $2.00 at any truck stop or auto parts store. The ones I use look like this but they are not mounted on a tilted base.
That's a great description of what you're comfortable with when changing lanes. I understand completely. I don't own the $2.00 convex mirrors, but I can see how they would aid in visibility. I'll probably pick some up tomorrow when I make the run for Mobile 1 and other items I need to put her away for the winter.
I will still, extra mirrors and all, look a bit to the lane I'm entering just to make sure. I'm 55 and been doing that for 41 of them. Works for me, but I do like the idea of putting something useful on the LT and even the cages, if the obstruction of the current mirror doesn't trump it.

Thanks,
|Jer

Jerry Palma
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post #33 of 41 Old Nov 10th, 2009, 9:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel_de_Vol
and

In Germany, if you want to learn to drive or to ride, you don't go and get a learner's permit, go and practice, then take a test. - You go to a driving school, where you will study (and be examined on) the theory. Your 'practical' sessions - taught by a qualified instructor - will include day, night, bad weather, freeway and town driving/riding. Getting a licence is a long and expensive process, but by the time a student gets a licence, he has some idea of what she's going to encounter on the roads.
My wife's long time friend, a German citizen, came to visit us last summer. We had a spare Corolla at the time which we allowed her to use so she and her 85 year old mother could enjoy their holiday. I had occasion to observe her driving skills and I can honestly state that the German system isn't all that successful either. I really didn't want to say this - - - BUT - - - perhaps its a gender issue.
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post #34 of 41 Old Nov 11th, 2009, 4:27 am
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel_de_Vol
In Germany, if you want to learn to drive or to ride, you don't go and get a learner's permit, go and practice, then take a test. - You go to a driving school, where you will study (and be examined on) the theory. Your 'practical' sessions - taught by a qualified instructor - will include day, night, bad weather, freeway and town driving/riding. Getting a licence is a long and expensive process, but by the time a student gets a licence, he has some idea of what she's going to encounter on the roads.
Similar to the UK.

Before you can go on the road at all, you have to do CBT - Compulsory Basic Training). This gives you the basics in staying alive and you have a proficiency test out on the road before being signed off by the instructor. You then have 2 years on a maximum 125cc motorcycle to take and pass the theory and practical tests. If you don't then you are off the road until you do another CBT.

Both the CBT and the main practical test requires radio contact and an instructor or examiner in pursuit.

Once you pass the main test, with some exceptions, you have a probation period of two years on a maximum 400cc. There is a Direct Access route to go straight to 400cc on your test, to receive an unrestricted licence. (Note the correct spelling) :-)

The test proper is quite involved and includes a "swerve" test that the motorcycle press deem too dangerous and had resulted in some broken limbs.

You WILL fail for inadequate observation, quite rightly.

Not sure if the same applies over there, but in the UK there is some strange myth that to get a licence requires the jumping of some irrelevant hoops. After that, you can drop into all sorts of "pseudo-macho" bad habits, like crossing hands on the wheel in a car, lack of observation and psychic signalling, then we have some motorcyclists who see nothing wrong in riding "hands free".

The standard of driving in the UK is generally terrible, so you HAVE to keeps your wits about you and be observant. I ride with headlights, fork lights and full flourescents, but still car drivers fail to notice me. :-(
Major problems are tailgating and cutting you up, especially on the motorways. I always put that down to lack of observation.

Just pussin' through.
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post #35 of 41 Old Nov 11th, 2009, 10:46 am
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Motorcycles in Germany and Switzerland have also probationary restrictions (at least, until recently): 25kW - about 34HP - for new riders. The rental places I've used even offered specific 34HP bikes for people with such restrictions.

Having grown up with an idea of 175cc bike being the utilitarian, everyday machine, and the "big" Czechoslovak CZ's having 350cc motors, I see no problem with the graduated license system. Makes sense to me. Especially, seeing fresh drivers in my area jumping straight onto liter-plus machines, after having an "introductory lesson" on an 80cc scooter (apparently, standard fare in NJ motorcycle schools).


For the trivia hounds:

Above is is the 125cc-175cc machine I still saw in my youth in popular use in rural areas as a family vehicle, even with sidecars. This example in racing livery is linked from speedtracktales.co.uk

Below, the cat's meow those days, a CZ. Pic linked from jawa-cz.com.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
...and psychic signalling...
Now, wait a minute - that's a neat description. Can you elaborate?

Robert in Northern NJ

'09 R12GS, '08 R12RT, '03 R1150RT, '01 F650GS - time to thin the herd?


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post #36 of 41 Old Nov 11th, 2009, 12:18 pm
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwalker

[Psychic signalling]

Now, wait a minute - that's a neat description. Can you elaborate?
This is a phenomenon where another driver believes that when he wants to change lanes or otherwise manouvre, the information is somehow transferred telepathically to those around him, making it unnecessary to utilise the indicators normally provided for the purpose.

Either that or they are inconsiderate morons.

Just pussin' through.
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post #37 of 41 Old Nov 11th, 2009, 1:09 pm
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
... or they are inconsiderate morons.
No, could not be. Could it?

Robert in Northern NJ

'09 R12GS, '08 R12RT, '03 R1150RT, '01 F650GS - time to thin the herd?


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post #38 of 41 Old Nov 11th, 2009, 3:56 pm
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Re: Sir, can you sign your name? Here's your license.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajlelectronics
This is a phenomenon where another driver believes that when he wants to change lanes or otherwise manouvre, the information is somehow transferred telepathically to those around him, making it unnecessary to utilise the indicators normally provided for the purpose.

Either that or they are inconsiderate morons.
Sounds like you guys have been riding in Memphis. They remove the turn signal controls here so as to not distract people with flashy lights and stuff

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post #39 of 41 Old Nov 16th, 2009, 1:25 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Hmmm, I'm working on the mirrors now and after reading this I'm thinking about a 'spring loaded' tether of some sorts. I guess I have project to play with for a while.

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post #40 of 41 Old Nov 16th, 2009, 9:27 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Get the right springs and the right length maybe you could knock 'em off and have them bounce right back onto the ball mounts. I would take a two pack of those!

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post #41 of 41 Old Nov 16th, 2009, 9:29 pm
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Re: Mirror teather vs. Screw

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG
Cable Ties, they're the answer . . . . there are two lugs, one inside the mirror body, one inside the housing it attaches on the fairing . . . cable tie loosely, and you'll never loose a mirror again . . . works for me!
Same in Here, been using Cable ties since starting and have got slightly hit to mirrors even in bike shows where 2 bikes are parked too close to each other and people just wanna squeeze in between them and give a damm abt bikes and mirrors...
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