I'm stumped; it won't start! - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 9:56 pm Thread Starter
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Unhappy I'm stumped; it won't start!

'06 LT, all accessories.

It was running fine this morning. I came home after a 50 mile ride to run some errands and found that the bulkhead fitting I ordered from McMaster-Carr had arrived, so I took the tail trunk, black cover, tail light assembly and rear painted piece off. I drilled the hole in the painted piece and installed the bulkhead fitting and hose.

I needed to move the bracket holding the alarm horn and motion detector out of the way to route the fuel line, but I did not disconnect any connectors.

I re-attached the bracket, rear painted piece and tail light and was going to go to the gas station to fill the fuel cell. I left the black cover and trunk off so I could inspect the fuel line fittings for leaks.

I rolled the bike off the centerstand, turned the key on and pressed the starter button; NOTHING! I checked the kill switch, reverse knob and tried it in neutral and in first with the clutch pulled in. When I turn the key on I DO NOT hear the fuel pump pressurize as usual.

I'm pretty sure the problem is in the alarm system. I disabled the side-stand switch already and that had no affect. I programmed the alarm system and got the chirps indicating it programmed correctly, but nothing I do will get the fuel pump to run or the engine to start. I even disconnected the positive lead of the battery for about 5 minutes, to no avail.

Any thoughts?

TIA

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #2 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 10:03 pm
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Lightbulb Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

check the fuses


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Bought used K1200LT number 3. This one is green/teal with 31,369(now 7/29/2018 54,143) miles and is an '02. The first 2 bikes made it to near 150,000 miles.
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Due to heart health, the Dr says not to ride under 40 degree air temp. Ugh! Now it is harder to get my 18000 miles a year in just in the summer. Guess that stopped my 20 degree rides now.
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78 years young!
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Converted HD rider.
Love this LT bike and still waiting for my first speeding ticket. LOL
Vern
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post #3 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 10:27 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Silly question
Did you try pushing the left alarm fob button?

Just Go
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post #4 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 11:15 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

What effect does the "motion detector" have on the operation of the bike?
Is it just to set off the alarm, or does it do more?

Its gotta be something simple...

James Brown
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post #5 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 11:17 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

I'm embarrassed to say that just last week, while running errands, I tried to start my bike by pushing the BC button. I knew I have plenty of voltage as the meter read over 12 volts and for about 30 seconds I kept pushing the BC button instead of the starter! I'm probably the only one to ever do this.....

I know this isn't why your bike won't start, but you jogged my memory.

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post #6 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 11:41 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown
What effect does the "motion detector" have on the operation of the bike?
Is it just to set off the alarm, or does it do more?

Its gotta be something simple...
When the alarm is set the immobilizer is on, disabling the fuel pump and starter.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
Meet Riley

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post #7 of 55 Old Aug 5th, 2009, 11:55 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
'06 LT, all accessories....

I'm pretty sure the problem is in the alarm system. I disabled the side-stand switch already and that had no affect. I programmed the alarm system and got the chirps indicating it programmed correctly, but nothing I do will get the fuel pump to run or the engine to start. I even disconnected the positive lead of the battery for about 5 minutes, to no avail.

Any thoughts?

TIA
It sounds like you have tried everything. I have seen a microswitch on the reverse control mechanism fail and a couple of alarms fail giving the same symptoms you describe. I think the fuel pump would run when the microswitch failed but did not when the alarm modules failed. I never tried to program the defective alarms, so I don't know if your being able to program yours proves anything. I guess it would be prudent to check the battery voltage - since '01 there has been an under voltage cutout on the starter relay. I don't have an LT to check, but if the bike is in neutral, only the kill switch and alarm (immobilizer) will cause the fuel pump not to run.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
Meet Riley

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post #8 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 1:08 am
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
'06 LT, all accessories.

I needed to move the bracket holding the alarm horn and motion detector out of the way to route the fuel line, but I did not disconnect any connectors.

I rolled the bike off the centerstand, turned the key on and pressed the starter button; NOTHING! I checked the kill switch, reverse knob and tried it in neutral and in first with the clutch pulled in. When I turn the key on I DO NOT hear the fuel pump pressurize as usual.

but nothing I do will get the fuel pump to run or the engine to start. I even disconnected the positive lead of the battery for about 5 minutes, to no avail.
First, easy question: Have you tried lightly moving the alarm unit harness around *while* with the key on to see whether the fuel pump operates and/or start works? It may be an intermittant connection.

Moving on, assuming that you have accurately programmed the alarm unit AND have operated the fob to the "unlock" state, I'm guessing that you may have damaged one of the wires that are "permissions" to the engine when you were moving the alarm unit around.

There are three such lines --

a Brown/Grey/Yellow wire (alarm terminal #10) which provides fuel injection enable permission (operates the K9415 "Emergency Shutoff Relay")

a Blue/Grey wire (alarm terminal #6) which provides ignition enable permission (operates the K9110 "Engine Electronics Relay" (the ignition circuit power supply))

a Black/Yellow wire (alarm terminal #3) which provides starter motor permission (operates the A9600 Starter Module).

Note: these are the wire colors at the alarm unit connector -- downstream of an intermediate harness connector they change colors.

Given the fact that the fuel pump is not running, the first wire/connector I'd check is the fuel injection permission wire. I'd use my ohmmeter with a needle to penetrate the wire insulation -- one meter probe at the connector, and another with a needle a few inches downstream of the alarm unit, to see whether there is a break in the wire close to the connector.

Looking forward to getting more data from your testing

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #9 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 2:12 am Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Guys,
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I did check the fuses and they are all good. I tried to disarm the alarm with both fobs, but that doesn't help. Also, when using the fob, I don't get the turn signal blinks that I think I should.

Another anomaly is that the power centerstand won't operate; the little sidestand light blinks as if I had the sidestand down or the brake on.

I did "lightly" pinch one of the smaller wire looms under the alarm bracket when I first started to put it back on. I don't think I tightened the bracket down before realizing it. I'll inspect the wires in that loom in the morning.

Thanks again,
GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #10 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 10:36 am
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
Guys,
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I did check the fuses and they are all good. I tried to disarm the alarm with both fobs, but that doesn't help. Also, when using the fob, I don't get the turn signal blinks that I think I should.

Thanks again,
GB
That is a big flag on the play. The alarm is not responding properly. Some times you have to operate the FOB many many (20 or more set - reset trys) times to get it to sync back up to where the alarm responds correctly.

John
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post #11 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 12:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Okay. I traced everything I touched yesterday and everything is good; no breaks in the wires, all connectors tight, (although, like I said, I never un-did any of them in the first place). The alarm seems to be working fine; I can arm it and hear the locks lock and I get the chirps from the horn and, when I turn the key with it armed, the siren goes off

I'm going to do a continuity test on all of the fuses; I have had cases where the fuse looked good, but was actually bad.

However, the three sysmptoms: no centerstand, no fuel pump and no starter operation, are all indicative of the sidestand being down, (although it should start in neutral even if the stand is down, right?), makes me suspect the sidestand connector or wires.

Back at it.

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #12 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 12:43 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Check your battery voltage or put it on the charger overnight.


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post #13 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 1:18 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
Okay. I traced everything I touched yesterday and everything is good; no breaks in the wires, all connectors tight, (although, like I said, I never un-did any of them in the first place). The alarm seems to be working fine; I can arm it and hear the locks lock and I get the chirps from the horn and, when I turn the key with it armed, the siren goes off

I'm going to do a continuity test on all of the fuses; I have had cases where the fuse looked good, but was actually bad.

However, the three sysmptoms: no centerstand, no fuel pump and no starter operation, are all indicative of the sidestand being down, (although it should start in neutral even if the stand is down, right?), makes me suspect the sidestand connector or wires.

Back at it.

GB
George, have you tried pulling the sidestand switch connector and jumpered the terminals to bypass the switch?

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #14 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 1:30 pm Thread Starter
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Smile Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwoolsey
Check your battery voltage or put it on the charger overnight.
Battery is brand new. However, since I'm willing to try anything at this point, I just went out and checked the voltage. It was at 11.5 with the key off. Just for the heck of it, and to see what the drop would be with the key on, I turned the key on and, low and behold, I heard the fuel pump pressurize! I pushed the starter button and it tried to turn over, but slowly, so I let the button off and put it on my trickle charger. I'll give it some time to get over 12 volts and try it again.

The only other thing I did between this attempt and the last ones was to jumper the sidestand switch at the connector under the seat. When I was trying to get the wires loose down under the transmission, the wire ties ver VERY tight. I'm wondering if I have a broken wire down there somehwere. The will be easy to check.

Thanks again,

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #15 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 2:13 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

11.5 V is essentially a dead battery, so it must have drained somehow. Fully charged should be in the vicinity of 13.2 V. I'd keep charging it until it has a full charge, as further discharging a battery that isn't fully charged is very hard on it - especially gel batteries.

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post #16 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 6:33 pm Thread Starter
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Unhappy Same issue; it won't start, (again)!

OK, just when I thought all was well. I put it back together and got ready to go fill up the aux fuel tank to test it and, just like yesterday, nothing! No fuel pump pressure, no centerstand and no starter. Someone I know says maybe the load shed relay, but I don't see how.

I put the old battery back in and, although it showed 12.5 volts, (with the key off), it didn't result in any improvement.

This is getting frustrating.

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #17 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 6:45 pm
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Re: Same issue; it won't start, (again)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
OK, just when I thought all was well. I put it back together and got ready to go fill up the aux fuel tank to test it and, just like yesterday, nothing! No fuel pump pressure, no centerstand and no starter. Someone I know says maybe the load shed relay, but I don't see how.

I put the old battery back in and, although it showed 12.5 volts, (with the key off), it didn't result in any improvement.

This is getting frustrating.

GB
You have probably already checked this, but did you verify that all of the wires and the bolts on the starter are tight. I have seen several intermittent problems caused by the starter as it act as a ground for the load shead relay. You might also try tapping on the starter. You might also try a set of jumper cables to a car battery, without the car running.

Jim

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post #18 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 6:52 pm
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Re: Same issue; it won't start, (again)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
OK, just when I thought all was well. I put it back together and got ready to go fill up the aux fuel tank to test it and, just like yesterday, nothing! No fuel pump pressure, no centerstand and no starter. Someone I know says maybe the load shed relay, but I don't see how.

I put the old battery back in and, although it showed 12.5 volts, (with the key off), it didn't result in any improvement.

This is getting frustrating.

GB
The thing that makes me think it's not the load shed relay is the fuel pump -- it is not tied into any of the circuits dumped by the load shed relay (which makes sense -- you want the fuel pump running when cranking to maintain pressure un the fuel rail).

I'm still stuck back at the sidestand switch or the alarm module -- maybe a short in one of the alarm harness wires that roasted the alarm module?? Grasping at straws at the moment, but from what you've posted, the only disturbance was back in the rear -- that is where I would be concentrating my efforts.

I'll take another look at the schematics tonight to see if any other possibilities jump out at me.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #19 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 8:14 pm
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Re: Same issue; it won't start, (again)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
OK, just when I thought all was well. I put it back together and got ready to go fill up the aux fuel tank to test it and, just like yesterday, nothing! No fuel pump pressure, no centerstand and no starter. Someone I know says maybe the load shed relay, but I don't see how.

I put the old battery back in and, although it showed 12.5 volts, (with the key off), it didn't result in any improvement.

This is getting frustrating.

GB
This really sounds like a problem with the DWA (alarm) module. I will confess that it still doesn't all add up. I need an excuse for a Saturday ride - do you want me to see if I can borrow an alarm module from someone, grab schematics and a meter and head your way?

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

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post #20 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 9:31 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Same issue; it won't start, (again)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
This really sounds like a problem with the DWA (alarm) module. I will confess that it still doesn't all add up.
I agree, on both counts.


Quote:
I need an excuse for a Saturday ride - do you want me to see if I can borrow an alarm module from someone, grab schematics and a meter and head your way?
Ha,ha. That's the first laugh I've had all day, thanks! Sure, come on over Randy. The only thing is, I need to tell you that I moved to Issaquah, Washington, last month. What do you drink? It's the least I could do for you, right?

I did try jumping the battery to a car; volt meter on the Garmin showed 14.4 volts, still no fuel pump, power centerstand or starter, so that rules out a low-voltage problem.

The alarm works in all other functions. It arms and disarms, locks and unlocks the bag latches, and goes off if you move the bike when it's armend, (the wife and the dog wish I had warned them about that one before I did it )

Still thinking. I may tear her down and check the fuel pump relay, but I'm 995 certain it's not getting a signal to close.

Thanks again,

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #21 of 55 Old Aug 6th, 2009, 11:46 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Another thought, from reading the schematics --

The fuel pump relay K9100 is controlled by the Emergency Shutoff Relay K9415. The ESR is in turn controlled by the kill switch.

If the kill switch is failing, the symptoms would include no fuel pump and no starter -- matches your symptoms so far.

What I cannot recall is whether the kill switch must be in the run position for the centerstand to operate. If yes, then its lack of function would be also consistent with a kill switch problem. A failing, but still intermittent, kill switch would also explain why the bike was working for that one, brief shining moment, but is now dead again.

I currently have a kill switch open on the workbench -- it is nothing more than two contacts - one entering one side of the switch at 4 o'clock and one at 8 o'clock, with a short arc of metal attached to the underside of the movable part of the switch. Obviously, the arc of metal is sized to span the two contacts when in the run position.

Because the end of the harness is inside the electrical box under the tank, jumpering the kill switch for a test is out of the question. Maybe a bit of downward pressure on the ring part of the switch (the red part under the starter switch) can be applied to test whether the contacts are being contacted when in the run position.

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post #22 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 6:06 am
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Thumbs up Re: KEY Switch

Good grief George !

How about the KEY switch ?
Pete Langford had a key switch failure on his LT in the Cape Fear 1 K this year.
Good Luck

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post #23 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 11:06 am Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
What I cannot recall is whether the kill switch must be in the run position for the centerstand to operate. If yes, then its lack of function would be also consistent with a kill switch problem.
Mark,
Thanks. I don't think that the kill switch needs to be on for the center stand to operate. I'll have my son check that out in a few minutes, (he's a BMW tech at BMW of North County in Escondidon, CA).

I'll try pushing on the kill switch ring.

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #24 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 12:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

I confirmed that the kill switch does not have to be on to use the cs. Pushing on the ring of the switch while operating it did nothing.

Going to check for voltage at the wires Mark mentioned coming from the alarm unit.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #25 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 12:39 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
First, easy question: Have you tried lightly moving the alarm unit harness around *while* with the key on to see whether the fuel pump operates and/or start works? It may be an intermittant connection.
Yes, no result.


Quote:
There are three such lines --

a Brown/Grey/Yellow wire (alarm terminal #10) which provides fuel injection enable permission (operates the K9415 "Emergency Shutoff Relay")
The color of my wire at pin #10 is green/purple and there is 12 volts present with key on.


Quote:
a Blue/Grey wire (alarm terminal #6) which provides ignition enable permission (operates the K9110 "Engine Electronics Relay" (the ignition circuit power supply))
The color of my wires at pin #6 is blue/purple and yes, 12 volts with key on.

Quote:
a Black/Yellow wire (alarm terminal #3) which provides starter motor permission (operates the A9600 Starter Module)
Color at pin 3 is black with white stripe and yellow bands and NO, only 1.5 volts are present with key on.

I don't know that the last reading of only 1.5 volts is, necessarily, the culprit; with power to the other two I would think I would still hear the fueal pump run if everything "down stream" were working correctly.

My son verified that the alarm DOES NOT lock out the centerstand. Therefore, in light of the above information, I am concluding that the problem is not the alarm unit.

So, I have ruled out:
Alarm
Sidestand switch
Reverse micro-switch, (the fuel pump will still run with reverse knob in reverse)
Kill switch, (would not disable cs)


Is there another sensor that sends a signal to the cs? I though I heard that if the bike is leaning too much the cs won't engage. I don't know if it would disable any other functions, but I'd like to rule that out.

TIA

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #26 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 1:01 pm Thread Starter
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New possibility, was:Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Hey all,
My son asked me if the headlight goes out when I hit the starter button, and it DOESN'T!.
So, I'm going out to strip it down and check/change the load shed relay. I'll check the fuel pump & starter relays while I'm in there.

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #27 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 1:08 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Might want to try replacing the battery first or testing with some other battery.

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.

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post #28 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 1:14 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kra961
Might want to try replacing the battery first or testing with some other battery.
Did that, but thanks.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #29 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 2:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

All relays are good; suspecting the multi-switch at this point, but I can't get the back of the switch off. I'm going to check continuity in the kill switch wires next, (I disconnected it from the connector up under the nose fairing).

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #30 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 2:56 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

I am no wrench head, but I still think the alarm as something to do with it. I remember I had low battery and attempted to start the bike. It turned over once or twice and got the click, click, click low battery.

Attempt to jump it off. Hooked a jump pack on the bike and nothing. Just hit the starter and nothing. All the lights where on etc...........

Put it on the charger over the weekend. Charged the battery and still nothing. So the following day as I was about to load it up on the trailer, dumbie me remember that the alarm had maybe reset itself. Remembered to hit the key FOB. Blinkers blinked and she fired up. Due...................

Check the FOB..........

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post #31 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 3:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman587
I am no wrench head, but I still think the alarm as something to do with it. I remember I had low battery and attempted to start the bike. It turned over once or twice and got the click, click, click low battery.

Attempt to jump it off. Hooked a jump pack on the bike and nothing. Just hit the starter and nothing. All the lights where on etc...........

Put it on the charger over the weekend. Charged the battery and still nothing. So the following day as I was about to load it up on the trailer, dumbie me remember that the alarm had maybe reset itself. Remembered to hit the key FOB. Blinkers blinked and she fired up. Due...................

Check the FOB..........
Yes, tried all of that. Even re-programmed the alarm. All alarm functions work as normal.

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #32 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 3:04 pm
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Re: New possibility, was:Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
Hey all,
My son asked me if the headlight goes out when I hit the starter button, and it DOESN'T!.
So, I'm going out to strip it down and check/change the load shed relay. I'll check the fuel pump & starter relays while I'm in there.

GB
Geroge, I don't have my schematics with me, but as I remember, if the alarm unit is kaput, it won't put out the signal authorizing the starter motor -- in other words, no signal that would activate the load shed relay, so the lack of headlight turn off is *not* a definitive pointer to the load shed relay.

If anything, the lack of headlight turn-off to me is just as much a further sign that the problem more likely lies with the alarm box -- particularly where the only work on the bike was around the alarm unit, and there has been no work anywhere near the load shed relay nor anything else to suggest that it is faulty.

Before I went to the effort of stripping the bike far enough to get to the eletrical box, I'd check with your son to see what further diagnostics you could do to either rule the alarm unit out or confirm it as the problem.

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #33 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 4:03 pm
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Re: New possibility, was:Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
Hey all,
My son asked me if the headlight goes out when I hit the starter button, and it DOESN'T!.
So, I'm going out to strip it down and check/change the load shed relay. I'll check the fuel pump & starter relays while I'm in there.

GB
The load shed relay will only come into play when the starter is powered as it finds its ground path through the starter. The starter is the ground path for the load relief relay, so when 12-volts is applied to the starter the load relief coil has the same potential on both sides and is "off" disconnecting the lights and other items in the load relief group.

Anything that prevents the starter relay from being energized will necessarily leave the load relief relay on as long as the ignition is on.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
Meet Riley

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post #34 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 4:59 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

"Color at pin 3 is black with white stripe and yellow bands and NO, only 1.5 volts are present with key on."

Ok now what does it read when you hit the starter? If it does not change then the alarm is bad (even though the rest of it is working OK.)

Another option is to try out the procedure I wrote in the "Files" "Technical" area on bypassing the 05+ alarm. Title is "So my 05+ Alarm is Toast". Might be worth a shot. At least if you follow that and all works again you will know it was the alarm.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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post #35 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 5:52 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

My son and I were on the same track as you were posting this. No, no voltage on the starter trigger wire from the alarm module when the starter is pushed.

I'll try the procedure you mentioned. Stay tuned!

GB

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
"Color at pin 3 is black with white stripe and yellow bands and NO, only 1.5 volts are present with key on."

Ok now what does it read when you hit the starter? If it does not change then the alarm is bad (even though the rest of it is working OK.)

Another option is to try out the procedure I wrote in the "Files" "Technical" area on bypassing the 05+ alarm. Title is "So my 05+ Alarm is Toast". Might be worth a shot. At least if you follow that and all works again you will know it was the alarm.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
IBA#146


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post #36 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 7:01 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

As mentioned before, the other thing that this problem has in common is that starter switch, not just the alarm box. Is there any way you can jump the push button to see if you get voltage either at the starter or those pins on the alarm box? I don't have an LT any more to look at, but can you at least see the two wires exiting the switch. Maybe with the bike switched off, stick a pin in each wire and check for continuity with your meter when you push the button?

Good Luck,

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post #37 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 7:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
As mentioned before, the other thing that this problem has in common is that starter switch, not just the alarm box. Is there any way you can jump the push button to see if you get voltage either at the starter or those pins on the alarm box? I don't have an LT any more to look at, but can you at least see the two wires exiting the switch. Maybe with the bike switched off, stick a pin in each wire and check for continuity with your meter when you push the button?

Good Luck,
I put a continuity tester on the wires at the connector under the nose and had no continuity until I pushed the button, then I had continuity.

But thanks for trying to help.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #38 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 7:24 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
As mentioned before, the other thing that this problem has in common is that starter switch, not just the alarm box. Is there any way you can jump the push button to see if you get voltage either at the starter or those pins on the alarm box? I don't have an LT any more to look at, but can you at least see the two wires exiting the switch. Maybe with the bike switched off, stick a pin in each wire and check for continuity with your meter when you push the button?

Good Luck,
Just for the sake of a correct truth table, the starter switch would not affect the initial pressurization of the fuel pump. Since the fuel pump is not running, it almost has to be the alarm. The sidestand switch and the emergency stop switch will also stop the fuel pump, but I am fairly certain it would still run in neutral even with a defective sidestand switch. The emergency stop switch has already been checked.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

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post #39 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 11:08 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

OK, at 7:30 PDT, here is where it stands. With John Zeiler's help on a long phone conversation, we by passed the alarm module. We then did various tests and used jumpers and got all of the necessary signals to the starter module, (fancy relay), but still no start. I'll go to the dealer in the morning and get a new realy and another member will bring his GS911 over so we can clear any ECM faults that might be present.

We'll see.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #40 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 11:17 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

George...
The tool will do many of the tests we could do manually.. but much faster... Hope it's something silly.
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post #41 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 11:18 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

I had a friend come over a couple of years ago to do some work on the his new LT. We did the canister and a couple of other minor things and when we were done the bike would not start almost the same as you describe. We tried things for hours checked everything, even the battery was good. He called for a tow to the dealer. Just on a whim I said lets try to push start it, so we pushed (I did) and he poped the clutch in second and started right away. We ran it for a few mins and we decided to shut it off and see if it would restart, it did and everything was normal after this. He cancelled the tow and rode it to the dealer and they checked it and found nothing and could not explain why this happened. It has never occured since this. What can it hurt?

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post #42 of 55 Old Aug 7th, 2009, 11:23 pm Thread Starter
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatson
I had a friend come over a couple of years ago to do some work on the his new LT. We did the canister and a couple of other minor things and when we were done the bike would not start almost the same as you describe. We tried things for hours checked everything, even the battery was good. He called for a tow to the dealer. Just on a whim I said lets try to push start it, so we pushed (I did) and he poped the clutch in second and started right away. We ran it for a few mins and we decided to shut it off and see if it would restart, it did and everything was normal after this. He cancelled the tow and rode it to the dealer and they checked it and found nothing and could not explain why this happened. It has never occured since this. What can it hurt?
Do you recall if the fuel pump pressurized? It seems to me that, if it doesn't, then it wouldn't start no mater what.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #43 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 12:21 am
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

From what I remember it acted like yours. The alarm seemed to work and the battery was up, it just did everything except start, untill we bump started it. When I did that I was amazed how easy it started, just pushed it a few feet. Good luck.

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post #44 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 5:48 pm Thread Starter
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Got it fixed! was: I'm stumped; it won't start!

It was stupid operator error, (as we figured, right?).

Going for lunch, more details to follow.

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #45 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 6:03 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Oh, come on, tell us. We've been hanging on this story for 3 days now.

Eat later....

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Seabrook, Texas

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post #46 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 6:47 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!


Life happens...you control your reaction.

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post #47 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 7:11 pm Thread Starter
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Smile Re: Got it fixed! was: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBarnes
It was stupid operator error, (as we figured, right?).

Going for lunch, more details to follow.

OK, wjen this all started I was going to get gas in the tail-dragger fuel cell so that I could test all of my plumbing and the transfer system. Well, the trunk, and black plate under it, were off the bike, (so I could inspect the fittings for leaks). When I removed the trunk I undid the connectors to the speakers so I could remove it. Well, I undid another connector, that lookd just like the audio connector, which happens to be the wires to the reverser module. The ignition control relay and starter realy get their ground connection through the reverser module. So, with the reverser module disconnected, a number of relays and citcuits did not have proper connections and nothing would work.

I just need to put it all back together now and move on, laughing at myself all the way!

I need to thank John Zeiler and the other people on the list that offered assistance and ideas. But, I REALLY need to thank Jim Daniels! He came over with his GS911, (which would not show any information because it wasn't able to connect to the ECU). Since Jim had a complete wiring diagram, and, with his knowledge of how to read the damn thing, we figured out that we weren't getting the ground connections to the relays and, as we traced the wires back to the reverser module we found the disconnected connector. So, Jim's help was invaluable in finding my stupid mistake and I can't thank him enough.

Now I need to go back out and clean everything up and put it together, then I'll go get that gas!

GB

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #48 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 7:35 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Wow Goerge, I didn't know one of the barrel connectors was for the reverser controller. Never would have guessed it. Sounds like Jim's diagrams were much better than the ones on the CD. Glad you solved it finally. Some times we let our selves be caught up in the chase and forget the "simple" stuff, which is usually the cause.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #49 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 8:11 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
<snip> Some times we let our selves be caught up in the chase and forget the "simple" stuff, which is usually the cause.
Boy, isn't that the truth?

George Barnes
'06 K1200LT
'01 K1200LT, totaled with 180,000 miles, 10/18/07,

'97, '99, '01, '05, '07 & '09 Iron Butt Rallies, (won the '99)
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post #50 of 55 Old Aug 8th, 2009, 8:22 pm
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Re: I'm stumped; it won't start!

George, you need to thank ALL of us on the forum whether we offered assistance or in my case did not offer assistance. We have been hangin' on this thread since day 1 rooting for you day and night!!!

Glad you found the cause!

Loren

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