Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question - BMW Luxury Touring Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 64 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 8:42 pm Thread Starter
lad
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 158
Unhappy Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

Hey Gang,

I have a question for all of you rear drive failure brothers???

Here's my story:
On Monday I was riding from Houston toward Oklahoma City on my trusty silver Frau, when I started noticing a kind of buzzy, un-natural vibration. At first I thought it was the road surface, but it slowly got worse and worse. At this point, I was almost to Bowie, TX, just south of the Red River. I pulled over, because I though it might be a bad tire. They were new, with about a thousand miles on them, and thought maybe one had started to shed a skin. Wrong, they looked perfect. I put the bike on the center stand, and spun the rear wheel, and it felt like there was gravel in the final drive (or gear box). Got back on the bike and limped into Bowie. Finally made arrangements with AAA to haul her over to the BMW shop in Ft. Worth, (thank you AAA), where she is resting, waiting for someone to check her out and determine the source of the problem.

The bike is a 2002, with 27500 miles. I got her used in Dec. 02 with 2000 miles. I changed the gear and final drive lube, when I got her at 2000 miles, with BMW gear lube. Then I changed them again at 12000 miles with Amsoil full synthetic, and again at 24000 miles, again with Amsoil full synthetic. The build date of the bike is 11/2001.

At the end of the week, I picked her up from the Ft. Worth Dealer on Friday morning (dealer hadn't touched her, much less test driven her to determine whether the rear drive was bad). I rode the bike from the shop to the trailer (about 50 yards), I had borrowed to carry her home. When I got her on the trailer, she started dripping gear grease out of the rear drive. That pretty much confirmed to me that the rear drive had passed on to better riding grounds. Now, once I got her on the trailer, I had to take black tape and cover over the license plate holder, which said 'if this motorcycle is on a trailer or truck, it is being STOLEN'. Talk about humiliation...

Now, on Monday, I have to go to work and face the crap from all of the Harley riders, including the Aggie in the next cube. Damn, this shouldn't have happened. I took good care of my baby, and she failed me. I just can't believe it. I just have to take solice, that in my 40 years of motorcycling I've never had a mechanical failure... well, that is if you don't count the Harley that I owned - it was ALWAYS broken...but that was a long time ago. In the past 4 years, I put over 100,000 miles on BMW's, without a problem. It just shouldn't have happened with my big Beemer bike. How humiliatin'.

I am thankful that she gave me about 100 miles of warning. Of course, had I not read all of the other stories of rear drive failure, I might not have noticed until much later, when she was protesting loudly, and roughly.

Anyway, my question is, can I replace the bearings/races in the rear drive, after this failure, or does it take a total rebuild/ or replacement (trash the old rear drive???)? In other words, after a failure, with all the CCC (Crud, Crap and Corruption) floating around in the gear grease, does it require replacing seals, and possibly even ring and pinon gears, or can I just replace the failed bearings/ races?

So, what say ye Bros?
lad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 64 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 8:47 pm
Senior Member
 
CharlieVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Deep South of Vermont
Posts: 4,395
Thorough inspection

is required. Since you drove it some distance after intial signs of failure I think it extremely prudent to throroughly check all components.
I would not just install a new crown wheel beaing and seal (although this might be all that is needed.
Sorry this happened to you, glad no one was hurt.
CharlieVT is offline  
post #3 of 64 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 9:39 pm
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 575
Lad - make sure to keep all parts and the used AMSOIL. I'd file a claim with BMW and AMSOIL to determine the cause of the problem and who is responsible. Go to the AMSOIL site to get a copy of their warranty to see how to file a claim. Hopefully, one company will blame the other and reimburse you for repairs. Which AMSOIL did you use? I've used the Severe Gear Lube 75W90 for the past 70,000 miles changing at 36,000 mile intervals.
TimVipond is offline  
 
post #4 of 64 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 9:51 pm
Senior Member
 
SilverBuffalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: St. Petersburg, FL, USA
Posts: 3,208
How humiliating

Sorry you have to go through what way too many of us have also had to do.
I can relate to your shame After riding HD for 20 years I got into the beemers, 15 years and some 275,000 miles on 5 absolutely reliable BMW's later, I couldn't believe that my LT let me down with a rear end failure, had to haul it home.
It hurt, it's been 10,000 miles since she did this dirty deed and its like loving a wicked woman, I know she could do it again but I just can't get enough of her.


Hans
St. Petersburg FL

2002 K1200LTE
"Silver Buffalo" Totaled 5/06
2005 LT
"Esperanza"
BushtecGenesisTrailer
"Our preferred long distance carrier"



SilverBuffalo is offline  
post #5 of 64 Old Jan 28th, 2006, 9:56 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Black Hills, SD, USA
Posts: 467
What CharlieVT says

A thorough inspection isn't that difficult because there isn't that many parts in a rear drive unit. By your description, I'd be willing to bet that you will only need a crown gear bearing and an output seal. The fact that your drive didn't try to lock up while moving is a big plus in your favor. (Means that things stayed in line and didn't try to feed big pieces through the gear teeth, but you will find out.)

Once you get it opened up, you'll know what to do. There is no magic here.
The bearing and seal were the only casualties on my buddies bike and his symptoms were the same as yours. (And after living through his, the rear drive on mine is now in "exploded view" for an inspection. Turns out the inner race has one tiny little spot starting to deteriorate, sooooooooo, it gets a new bearing and seal. 25k miles.)

Good Luck

Duane

Check the obvious first!
01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
73 Z1 Kawi
and 7 long gone
Dman is offline  
post #6 of 64 Old Jan 29th, 2006, 1:00 pm
Senior Member
 
avonfloater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ridgefield, WA, USA
Posts: 925
Cool Avonfloater

I just did some "winter" maintenance work - engine oil and filter and other misc stuff. I had been advised to change my final drive gear lube every time I did an engine oil replacement since it takes a very small amount of gear lube and a minimal of work because everything is handy to get at. The rational was to keep the final drive lube clean and free of foreign materials. I found NO signs of metal parts or any other foreign materials in the drained lube or on the drain plug - is that probably a good sign or do the final drives fail with little or no sign or warning? I'm running BMW full sysnthetic lube in my final drive and have 18K on the bike. I heard that BMW made some changes to the bearing after a certain time in 2002 or 2003 - any advise on how to check to see if my 2002 has the new bearing? Is the new bearing worth replacing the old one in terms of avoiding a breakdown on the road - in other words, is it that much better than the old one?

Appreciate any advise.
avonfloater is offline  
post #7 of 64 Old Jan 29th, 2006, 6:30 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Warrington, Pa., USA
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVipond
Lad - make sure to keep all parts and the used AMSOIL. I'd file a claim with BMW and AMSOIL to determine the cause of the problem and who is responsible. Go to the AMSOIL site to get a copy of their warranty to see how to file a claim. Hopefully, one company will blame the other and reimburse you for repairs. Which AMSOIL did you use? I've used the Severe Gear Lube 75W90 for the past 70,000 miles changing at 36,000 mile intervals.
If you have a good dealer working for you you might get some good faith $$ from BMW. As for AMSOIL good luck........I was one of their "dealers" a few years back. We were having problems wiping out camshafts on Porsche race motors. We got absolutely 0 help from them. One of a few reasons I will not carry their products today.
nplenzick is offline  
post #8 of 64 Old Jan 29th, 2006, 9:02 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Black Hills, SD, USA
Posts: 467
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by avonfloater
I had been advised to change my final drive gear lube every time I did an engine oil replacement since it takes a very small amount of gear lube and a minimal of work because everything is handy to get at .
It isn't bad advice and certainly won't hurt anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by avonfloater
I heard that BMW made some changes to the bearing after a certain time in 2002 or 2003 - any advise on how to check to see if my 2002 has the new bearing?
About the only way you will know for sure is to open it up and look.


Quote:
Originally Posted by avonfloater
Is the new bearing worth replacing the old one in terms of avoiding a breakdown on the road - in other words, is it that much better than the old one?
Is it worth replacing? That's a good question. There are many with high miles that haven't failed so maybe disassemble and inspect on some mileage basis? Anybody's guess.

Is it that much better? (By the looks of a post from old1951, we could start a debate here.) IMHO, not much. Marginal, or possibly a little better. The specs on the "old" and "new" bearings are virtually identical. Physical differences are two less balls and a slightly heavier built ball spacer assembly in the "new" one. (Pictures posted: left is "old", right is "new".)

I'm not totally sold on the idea that the bearing is the problem. I'm thinking that the heavier spacer assembly is only treating a symptom and the problem still exists. (Housing flex?? Who knows? The jury is still out.) Even if treating a symptom I think Dave Sheeley has the right idea using a bearing with a machined bronze ball spacer. That might just work.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LeftOldRightNew.JPG
Views:	594
Size:	77.2 KB
ID:	1726  

Duane

Check the obvious first!
01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
73 Z1 Kawi
and 7 long gone
Dman is offline  
post #9 of 64 Old Jan 29th, 2006, 10:48 pm
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by nplenzick
If you have a good dealer working for you you might get some good faith $$ from BMW. As for AMSOIL good luck........I was one of their "dealers" a few years back. We were having problems wiping out camshafts on Porsche race motors. We got absolutely 0 help from them. One of a few reasons I will not carry their products today.
I can understand your frustration if you felt AMSOIL should help you. But as it was a race motor, it is probably outside of their interest and warranty to do much. If it was a stock motor, I would think they would have been more helpful. I'm not sure that any other oil company would have done more for a race motor. Race motors push all limits mechanically and many fail without anything to do with the lubricant. Just my opinion.
TimVipond is offline  
post #10 of 64 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 7:33 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Warrington, Pa., USA
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVipond
I can understand your frustration if you felt AMSOIL should help you. But as it was a race motor, it is probably outside of their interest and warranty to do much. If it was a stock motor, I would think they would have been more helpful. I'm not sure that any other oil company would have done more for a race motor. Race motors push all limits mechanically and many fail without anything to do with the lubricant. Just my opinion.
We were not expecting $$ from them but some technical advise as to what was causing the problem. We were not only selling their products but promoting them on the race car. We switched to Mobil 1 and presto problem want away. Grant you this was about 16 years ago but it left a sour taste in me. I see their pyramid sales technic hasn't change in all these years......another thing I don't like.
nplenzick is offline  
post #11 of 64 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 9:48 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Melbourne, FL, USA
Posts: 564
Does anyone have the part number for the crown wheel bearing? The numbers from Max BMW and A&S do not come up at Chicago BMW. They give a part nuber of 33121242210. I suspect this is the number for the old bearing.

Alex H Lindsay
Melbourne, FL
Champagne 2001 LT
Space Coast BMW Riders
alindsay is offline  
post #12 of 64 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 12:04 pm
Senior Member
 
JATownsend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Bloomfield Hills, MI, USA
Posts: 1,134
BMW Part #33121468899

My rear bearing was replaced in 2004 after an accident. The WO from Chicago BMW shows BMW Part#33121468899 - Bearing - $124.00.

I just checked at the MAX BMW site in their microfiche section and got the same number.

J. Averill Townsend
Bloomfield Hills, MI


IBA# 24374

2002 K1200LTC - Silver
1978 R100/7 - Very, very Black
2004 Bushtec Quantum - Silver, of course...(SOLD)

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JATownsend is offline  
post #13 of 64 Old Jan 30th, 2006, 1:24 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Melbourne, FL, USA
Posts: 564
Thanks but interesting. I just went back to the MAX BMW website and checked again and I still get 33121242210 for the bearing (grooved ball bearing). I am looking under both the K1200LT and K1200LT/m fiches.

I went ahead and called Chicago BMW and got the part number from them. It is, the number you provided with the old number I gave as being supreseded by the new number.

Alex H Lindsay
Melbourne, FL
Champagne 2001 LT
Space Coast BMW Riders
alindsay is offline  
post #14 of 64 Old Feb 11th, 2006, 7:41 pm
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: , ,
Posts: 51
Red face Rear drive bites the Dust

You can just replace the parts but change parts may also change your clearances. The clearances can determine how long the final drive lasts. Check everything. Any gear scoring, breakage, and bearing problems rebuild it completely. Bearing need close inspection. But from reading your discription of events, the bearings should be replaced. For my peace of mine, a total rebuild or new final drive. I had to do that on my '85 K100rt after a bad rebuild. You might concider another gear oil that I have used for many years. This is Spirax by Shell. Heavy equipment users and farmers use this stuff. It does not collect water like other gear oils, and it sticks to the parts even when very very hot. I had a final drive failure on my '85 K towing a trailer.(never again), it began in Missouri and got me home plus two months before bearings got so bad it began to leak. It never completely failed. I was using Spirax. It comes in regular and synthetic and price is affordable. It also exceeds BMW specs.
davek100rt is offline  
post #15 of 64 Old Feb 12th, 2006, 11:08 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Brooksville, FL USA
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman
Is it that much better? (By the looks of a post from old1951, we could start a debate here.) IMHO, not much. Marginal, or possibly a little better. The specs on the "old" and "new" bearings are virtually identical. Physical differences are two less balls and a slightly heavier built ball spacer assembly in the "new" one. (Pictures posted: left is "old", right is "new".)

I'm not totally sold on the idea that the bearing is the problem.
Just another data point. My 2000 just turned 100K on the original bearing. I asked my dealer (Bentonville) to put the new bearing in at 65K and again at 95K. He pulled it, inspected it, and cleaned it - then put the same one back in both times. He said it "looked like new" and that he has had failures with the new bearing. He doesn't know why they fail but his rationale is why change a known good bearing for an unknown performer that is also known to fail.

100K, original bearing, pulled a Bushtec for at least 30K, been to Alaska and back ......... we'll see.

Tom
TPadden is offline  
post #16 of 64 Old Feb 12th, 2006, 3:58 pm
Senior Member
 
bmwrider79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ingleside, IL, USA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by nplenzick
If you have a good dealer working for you you might get some good faith $$ from BMW. As for AMSOIL good luck........I was one of their "dealers" a few years back. We were having problems wiping out camshafts on Porsche race motors. We got absolutely 0 help from them. One of a few reasons I will not carry their products today.

Concerning the Porsche race car. Did you consult Amsoil as to what product to use in you application? If so can you 100% rule out it was oil failure? If so how. Keep in mind I am not bashing you here I am really curious about what Amsoil product you used.

Did Porsche stand behind their product?. My guess is they did not and will not since you are racing it.

And yes they both promote racing in the sale of their products. Porsche subliminally and Amsoil overtly promote it.



I am not saying this to diminish you situation. We did some entry level racing 2 years ago and we were surpised in a big way what a beating cars take when raced. It is one thing to go fast lite to lite on the street but another to go 10 min straight wide open or close to it. Found out what racing oil really meant. use the wrong one and oops there goes the engine.

Ironically the no-name racing oil sold at pepboys or autozone worked well in the beaters we were racing. Hard to believe those little 4 cyl rice burners could pump that 50 wt syrup thru the motor but it did.

Mike G
Northen Illinois Packer Fan
K1200lt 2002
LT Trunk Latch Maker
bmwrider79 is offline  
post #17 of 64 Old Feb 12th, 2006, 7:04 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 189
I've repaired quite a few final drives that had the big bearing fail. I like to take the pinion gear and bearing out (complete disassembly) to inspect them and do a thorough cleanout. I then assemble the drive without the pinion gear installed and the big oil seal not in the cover. This allows me to accurately feel the preload on the big ring gear bearing and the tapered bearing inside. In every drive that I have worked on, I have had to remove at least .10mm of shimming. Assuming that the manufacturing tolerances of quality ball bearings are pretty damn close to one another, it suggests that these drives were originally shimmed way too tightly. Just my 2 cents.

Paul Ford
01 R1150GS
90 K1200
73 R75/2
mobygrape is offline  
post #18 of 64 Old Feb 12th, 2006, 10:00 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Black Hills, SD, USA
Posts: 467
Thumbs up You just made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobygrape
I've repaired quite a few final drives that had the big bearing fail. I like to take the pinion gear and bearing out (complete disassembly) to inspect them and do a thorough cleanout. I then assemble the drive without the pinion gear installed and the big oil seal not in the cover. This allows me to accurately feel the preload on the big ring gear bearing and the tapered bearing inside. In every drive that I have worked on, I have had to remove at least .10mm of shimming. Assuming that the manufacturing tolerances of quality ball bearings are pretty damn close to one another, it suggests that these drives were originally shimmed way too tightly. Just my 2 cents.
You just made my day Paul,
I just finished doing the drive in mine today. Thought I was nuts because the preload had changed significantly from the original bearing. Racking my brain trying to figure if my "measurements" were valid or a fluke. (Did my measurement with the case assembled w/o seal and shims using a dial indicator and two screwdrivers / prybars.) The change was .10mm too tight. Bearings are usually darn close, even between manufacturers and .10mm seemed like a lot. Assembeled the unit minus the seal and "felt" the preload. Everything felt fine so final assembeled and installed "wondering" if everything was going to be alright. Yep, you just made my day!
Thanks!!

Duane

Check the obvious first!
01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
73 Z1 Kawi
and 7 long gone
Dman is offline  
post #19 of 64 Old Feb 13th, 2006, 12:46 am
Senior Member
 
Moonshine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbus, NE, USA
Posts: 261
Question Temperature of rear drive housing

When you are measuring the preload of the bearings you must take into consideration of the temperature of the aluminum rear drive housing. This aluminum housing expands at a higher rate than the steel of the ring gear shaft. When we set up the quick change center sections of our sprint cars we always heated the center section then we would measure the side plate bearing preload. When the center section was cold / room temperature the preload was always tighter. So be careful when measuring bearing preload.
Moonshine is offline  
post #20 of 64 Old Feb 13th, 2006, 10:15 pm
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 137
Amazing My Triumph Rockett III had a bad rear end. what did they do They ethically recalled all of them and replaced them Would BMW do that NO WAY they enjoy pissing people off.
patrickreyn is offline  
post #21 of 64 Old Feb 16th, 2006, 7:35 am Thread Starter
lad
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 158
Thumbs up Spirax

Thanks for the tips Dave.

I think I'll look up some Spirax for my new drive. I liked the Amsoil gear grease. It is a true synthetic. It didn't keep my bearings from failing though. Might have failed sooner with something else, then again, it might not have failed with something else.

Now, to see if BMW will help me out with this 'situation'.

You should fill out your profile, so we know where you are and a little about you.

Thanks,
Larry D.



Quote:
Originally Posted by davek100rt
You can just replace the parts but change parts may also change your clearances. The clearances can determine how long the final drive lasts. Check everything. Any gear scoring, breakage, and bearing problems rebuild it completely. Bearing need close inspection. But from reading your discription of events, the bearings should be replaced. For my peace of mine, a total rebuild or new final drive. I had to do that on my '85 K100rt after a bad rebuild. You might concider another gear oil that I have used for many years. This is Spirax by Shell. Heavy equipment users and farmers use this stuff. It does not collect water like other gear oils, and it sticks to the parts even when very very hot. I had a final drive failure on my '85 K towing a trailer.(never again), it began in Missouri and got me home plus two months before bearings got so bad it began to leak. It never completely failed. I was using Spirax. It comes in regular and synthetic and price is affordable. It also exceeds BMW specs.
lad is offline  
post #22 of 64 Old Feb 16th, 2006, 10:15 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Brooksville, FL USA
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickreyn
Amazing My Triumph Rockett III had a bad rear end. what did they do They ethically recalled all of them and replaced them Would BMW do that NO WAY they enjoy pissing people off.
Been a "loyal" BMW owner for over 20 years purchasing 5 new BMW's during that time. The way they treat problems has always been the same:

1. Blame the customer
2. Say: This is the first they have heard of the problem
3. Say: They all do that and it isn't a problem
4. Blame the customer again

I've just lived with it in the past but their treatment of the rear drive problem and the clutch spline problem with oilheads has about put me over the fence. The reliability of other manufacturers doesn't help BMW's case either.

Their is only one reason I might buy another BMW and that is the wonderful dealer that I ride 3.5 hours each way to visit. He's currently trying to talk me into a new GT ....... hard to justify it at almost twice the price of a FJR.

We'll see ..........

Tom
TPadden is offline  
post #23 of 64 Old Jul 17th, 2006, 10:20 pm
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , ,
Posts: 11
rear drive failure

Just today I got my rear drive back from the dealership and put it back on my 2000 LT. It failed at 30,000 and I experienced the same symptoms you mention. I took the rear drive to my local dealer and asked them to rebuild the entire unit using the 17 ball "improved" bearing. They were back ordered and I ended up waiting 4 weeks until the unit was finished (just this morning). I paid $800.00 for the total rebuild. The other option would have been to buy a new unit which, with Chicago BMW's 20% discount, would have been slightly cheaper than this rebuild. In my case, I have the updated bearing but, as has been mentioned by many others, I'm not sure this new bearing really solves the problem.
If you install the repaired/new unit yourself, be very careful when inserting the steel stop nut into the aluminum sling arm threats. The aluminum is very easy to cross thread and I almost ruined mine!
Are there others out there who have replaced the original with the 17 ball unit and have put significant miles on since the replacement? Lou
louatlvc is offline  
post #24 of 64 Old Jul 18th, 2006, 2:00 am
Senior Member
 
JCarver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Greensboro, GA, USA
Posts: 398
Smile Rear drive

I had my rear drive to go out a little more than a year ago. The warning came quickly, thank goodness I was close to home. Once I got a chance to look at things, I knew it was the rear drive that had gone bad. One dealer could not give me a timeline on how long it would take, so I tried another. They had a bit more info on the total scenario. If I chose to just replace the bearing, no warranty would accompany that work. If I were to choose to replace the rear drive, it would have a one year warranty. With those words, no problem, decision ground in cement, replace the drive.

Been over a year now, and the LTC just keep on going and going. :-)

John Carver
K1200LTC, AMA, BMWMOA
Greensboro, GA

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JCarver is offline  
post #25 of 64 Old Sep 19th, 2006, 11:29 pm
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1
Been through the same thing myself

I was riding up to see one of my girl friends, when I felt a slight vibration when slowing down on an exit ramp. I thought maybe it was the road. I had rode at approximately 90-100 mph for 25 miles straight. She lived a short distance from the exit. I made it there with no problem, had dinner, and she wanted to go for a ride. I forgot about what I thought I had felt. We rode about five miles. When I went to slow down for a stop sign, I felt rumbling while slowing down. There was a convienent store at the corner so I pulled in. When I got stopped I could smell 90wt oil. I got off the bike and the gearbox side of the wheel was completely covered with oil. I couldn't believe it. I pounded the crap out of a Yamaha 650 for 25 years and no problems. I babied this 2000 K1200LT as much as I could handle and it let me down. To think I was considering a trip to Alaska with it. The outer bearing was in pieces, the inner bearing was also showing excessive wear for 32,000 miles. I replaced both inner and outer bearings and seal, put new gear synthetic gear oil in and felt I was good to go. I kept an eye on the rear-end real close after that. After two weeks I noticed that after I rode, the front of the gear-box was warmer than I thought it should be. Sure enough, the front bearing was also worn that centers the drive shaft. The gear oil had been changed three times before any of this happened. After reading all these threads, I believe it is a BMW problem. I spent nearly $800 to get this taken care of. My bike still looks great, and is running beautiful now. I am beginning to think maybe I ought to unload it before this happens again. The new outer bearing they put in did have less bearings than the original set. Maybe that is enough to take care of this problem. Anyone taking an extended trip, I would suggest taking a set of bearings with you. Also the Tool kit does not have the right size Allen wrench to remove the gearbox cover. You might want to add that to your tool kit.
Summerbikerbmw is offline  
post #26 of 64 Old Sep 20th, 2006, 12:25 am
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
Posts: 46
Hi Larry,

Sorry to hear about your LT but I would be surprised if BMW does anything honorable to fix it. I lost the ABS modulator last year (2400 miles) on my LT and George wouldn't touch it. The part alone was $1700 bucks from BMW before one piece of tupperware is even removed. And you know George, he recommended ripping the whole "friggin" system out and throwing it away to save weight. I contacted BMW to see if they would even consider giving me a break on the part considering the very low miles. I was told pretty much to go pound sand so I'm keeping LT for now but this will be my last BMW. I can go another 100,000 miles on the 90/6 and never worry about the final drive. I'm keeping that one!
iceberg is offline  
post #27 of 64 Old Sep 20th, 2006, 10:30 am
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceberg
Hi Larry,

Sorry to hear about your LT but I would be surprised if BMW does anything honorable to fix it. I lost the ABS modulator last year (2400 miles) on my LT and George wouldn't touch it.
2400 miles? Even if you had meant to type 24,000 it should have been in warranty, unless it was over 36 months old. What year LT is it?

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #28 of 64 Old Sep 20th, 2006, 4:36 pm
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
Posts: 46
Good catch Dave, it's a 2001 model currently with about 4,000 miles. I bought it in Fairbanks AK in late 2001. Of course, we have limited riding weather up here for about eight months. I have a 90/6 that is actually better running errands around town IMHO. I do ride the LT every summer but it was purchased to tour outside of Alaska. I just haven't gotten around to shipping it out yet but when I retire in two years, I intend to run it hard (until final drive fails) but it probably won't have ABS. Thanks for asking and sorry, don't know how to do the quote thing.

Randy
iceberg is offline  
post #29 of 64 Old Sep 20th, 2006, 5:05 pm
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceberg
Good catch Dave, it's a 2001 model currently with about 4,000 miles. I bought it in Fairbanks AK in late 2001. Of course, we have limited riding weather up here for about eight months. I have a 90/6 that is actually better running errands around town IMHO. I do ride the LT every summer but it was purchased to tour outside of Alaska. I just haven't gotten around to shipping it out yet but when I retire in two years, I intend to run it hard (until final drive fails) but it probably won't have ABS. Thanks for asking and sorry, don't know how to do the quote thing.

Randy
That explains it.

The quote system works like this:

Hit the "quote" button at the bottom of the message. If you type a response after the [/Quote] you will see at the bottom of the orginal message, it will come up as a reply. You insert a response anywhere in the message by typing [/quote], (the / turns off quoting). You can then type [quote] to turn quoting back on, and do this over and over as necessary to insert multiple answers within a quoted post if you wish.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #30 of 64 Old Sep 20th, 2006, 5:31 pm
Member
 
pwmac2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 71
Lad,

When my final drive failed at 89K miles, I had already had my local North Houston Dealer look at the symptom (oil leak). They replaced the inner seal and gave it back to me so that I could discover that the crown gear bearing was failing.

Be that as it may..... now that yours has failed (and I've read too many milage scenarios to think you could have predicted it) if your dealer wants more than say $1100 to replace the bearing and seal, I suggest you replace the entire final drive. You can do it yourself very easily if you have the whole new drive to install. No extracting bearings and hoping nothing else is damaged.

Remove wheel, brake rotor & caliper and then final drive. (Drive shaft spline pops off with a couple of screwdrivers). Re-install in reverse order.

That's symplified of course but it's really easy. (You should have one of the manuals to refer to in any case). My point is that it may be just a cost effective to replace the whole thing yourself than to have the dealers wrench replace only the one bearing.

If you decide to do it that way, be sure to order the correct model year and gear ratio drive.

Regards,

Paul McClure - Houston, Tx.
pwmac2005 is offline  
post #31 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 6:14 am
Lifetime Supporter
 
Bigfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: pasadena, TX, USA
Posts: 52
final drive woes

two things about final drives Ive found to be true.1)its the weakest part of the bike I had mutiple failures on new and repaired bmw final drives its just one of its Quirks.
2)there is always a good unit for sale on the net,right now on ebay you can buy one that has a hundred miles on it for 350.00 bucks pluss 30.00 dollars shipping,it fits 2002 and up,they pulled it off a bike for trike conversion.
Its always best to take a spare everyware you go.
good luck with your pain I hope this helps you some
Bigfoot is offline  
post #32 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 11:04 am
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: , ,
Posts: 96
Fyi

For what it's worth:

In 2004 (1 year out of warranty) with 24,000 miles on the bike, BMW replaced the whole final drive on my 2000 K1200 at no charge to me.

I accomplished this with the help of my local BMW service manager and a polite, diplomatic letter outlining the absurdity of a lot of BMW drive unit self-destructing at 24,000 miles.

The worst case is that they will just say "no". Might as well give it your best shot requesting they do it on their dime.

Mark

BSA 650 about 1969 Used, Denver, CO
Harley 350 (yes they made a 350) New, about 1971 Denver, CO

BMWs owned in sucession since 1975
R65 Used, Denver, CO
R90RT New, Denver, CO
R100R New Spokane, WA
K1100LT New Spokane, WA
2000 K1200LT Used, in 2001 then another
2000 K1200LTC Used, Canyon Red Metallic in 2003 then another
2000 K1200 LT Icon Used, Canyon Red Metallic in 2011 and still rolling.
mabden is offline  
post #33 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 11:20 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Custer, SD, USA
Posts: 426
Spare Final Drive!!

Bigfoot;
I normally won't post on the list anymore but this one I have to respond to; Are you saying we should keep a spare final drive around just in case?
Kenny is offline  
post #34 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 11:56 am
Senior Member
 
pdrstraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Boulder, CO, USA
Posts: 704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Bigfoot;
I normally won't post on the list anymore but this one I have to respond to; Are you saying we should keep a spare final drive around just in case?

If you're hours from the closest dealer, and you're committed to keeping the LT, it makes good sense to have an extra rear drive around. I keep an extra drive boxed up and leave it with a friend when I travel. Should I break down on the road, I at least know I can have the box overnighted to me. How many dealers (even if I were to break down near one!) would have a drive or bearings needed to fix an '01 LT in stock? I don't want to have to wait several days for a fix. The extra drive in my possession will insure that I'd only lose a day if I break down on the road.

If your LT is an 02 or newer, the complete drives found on Ebay for $300 are a real bargain! Rear drives for the 99-01 LT's are harder to come by...that's even more reason to find a spare!

Regards,

Paul Rakestraw
Boulder, CO

09 R1200RT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01 K1200LTI
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wrecked at 91k miles


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pdrstraw is offline  
post #35 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 12:12 pm
Senior Member
 
pieceofficer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Peoria , Illinois, USA
Posts: 464
Um.... Did you READ IT??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot
two things about final drives Ive found to be true.1)its the weakest part of the bike I had mutiple failures on new and repaired bmw final drives its just one of its Quirks.
2)there is always a good unit for sale on the net,right now on ebay you can buy one that has a hundred miles on it for 350.00 bucks pluss 30.00 dollars shipping,it fits 2002 and up,they pulled it off a bike for trike conversion.
Its always best to take a spare everyware you go.
good luck with your pain I hope this helps you some
GO look at the auction again.... YES it said 100miles...but it also says "GOT RAN WITH NO OIL AND WILL NOT TURN"

You send your Benjamins and Grant to em...I am not!!

Bill

Colorado Springs, CO
2003 K1200LTE "Infinite"
2002 HD FXDL "Kristi"
2002 K1200RS "Monique"
1996 R1100RT "Kami"
1988 K75s no name
pieceofficer is offline  
post #36 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 2:45 pm
Senior Member
 
pdrstraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Boulder, CO, USA
Posts: 704
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieceofficer
GO look at the auction again.... YES it said 100miles...but it also says "GOT RAN WITH NO OIL AND WILL NOT TURN"

You send your Benjamins and Grant to em...I am not!!
You're right about that one, Bill...wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. But there are frequently units for sale from Hannigan that are low mileage rear drives taken off for trike conversions. They're generally in the $300 range and indeed, would be a bargain.

Just food for thought...

Paul Rakestraw
Boulder, CO

09 R1200RT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01 K1200LTI
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wrecked at 91k miles


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pdrstraw is offline  
post #37 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm
Senior Member
 
pieceofficer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Peoria , Illinois, USA
Posts: 464
If the history is known

I agree with you Paul....but I am just saying...I would NEVER try and direct a fellow LTer to a disaster such as a seized final drive.. unintentional I am sure..

Ebay is a Great resource as there are currently 2 final drives there that I could locate....the one as mentioned above, and then more that I believe was off of a 99 model and looks well used. About 350 with shipping as well.

Regardless...I am not carrying an extra around with me.....would be nice to have on the windy nights when my stakes to my tent start to come out...I could just lay all the miscellaneous bike parts I am toting with me on there...


Ride it like you want to....fix it when you have to.... carry a cell phone and a Credit Card.

Bill

Colorado Springs, CO
2003 K1200LTE "Infinite"
2002 HD FXDL "Kristi"
2002 K1200RS "Monique"
1996 R1100RT "Kami"
1988 K75s no name
pieceofficer is offline  
post #38 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 4:14 pm
Senior Member
 
gr8fulfred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Galt CA
Posts: 482
I would like to know who among us has a final drive that has not failed, especially some that have high mileage and many years on them. BMW tells us that the failure rate is running around 4 percent, yet if some one were to read some of the threads on this subject in this forum it would appear to be much higher than that. I have a '99 with 60,000 miles with the original final drive, original clutch and slave cylinder, and I occasionally feel as if I am borrowed time, even though I perform all maintenance duties regularly. I fully expected this bike to take me past 150,000 miles with no more than a clutch replacement somewhere along the way, but sometimes I'm not so sure. It would be a little reassuring to hear of others without these issues. Sorry if I highjacked the thread, but it seemed like an appropriate time and place to ask.

Fred Jewell
No longer president, River City Beemers
2009 R1200RT - Silver


BMWMOA #123779
BMWRA #38714
IBA #24559

"Shadowboxing the apocalypse, wandering the land"
gr8fulfred is offline  
post #39 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 4:58 pm
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 348
Cool Rear Drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by avonfloater
I just did some "winter" maintenance work - engine oil and filter and other misc stuff. I had been advised to change my final drive gear lube every time I did an engine oil replacement since it takes a very small amount of gear lube and a minimal of work because everything is handy to get at. The rational was to keep the final drive lube clean and free of foreign materials. I found NO signs of metal parts or any other foreign materials in the drained lube or on the drain plug - is that probably a good sign or do the final drives fail with little or no sign or warning? I'm running BMW full sysnthetic lube in my final drive and have 18K on the bike. I heard that BMW made some changes to the bearing after a certain time in 2002 or 2003 - any advise on how to check to see if my 2002 has the new bearing? Is the new bearing worth replacing the old one in terms of avoiding a breakdown on the road - in other words, is it that much better than the old one?

Appreciate any advise.
My '99 did give me at least 600 miles of warning, but the dealer's mechanic I showed it to (lots of splooge on the drain magnet) refused to agree that that was not normal. 600 miles later it started screaming (literaly). So this time (on my 2000) I'm changing the rear drive oil with each motor oil change, just so I can inspect the magnet. For the first 26k it has stayed absolutely clean.
HarvRead is offline  
post #40 of 64 Old Apr 4th, 2007, 7:13 pm
Senior Member
 
pieceofficer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Peoria , Illinois, USA
Posts: 464
2003

Fred,
2003 K12LT Only routine maintenance and 42K miles.. (KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK)

Bill

Colorado Springs, CO
2003 K1200LTE "Infinite"
2002 HD FXDL "Kristi"
2002 K1200RS "Monique"
1996 R1100RT "Kami"
1988 K75s no name
pieceofficer is offline  
post #41 of 64 Old Apr 5th, 2007, 10:23 am
was
Senior Member
 
was's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Guilford, CT, USA
Posts: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8fulfred
I would like to know who among us has a final drive that has not failed, especially some that have high mileage and many years on them. BMW tells us that the failure rate is running around 4 percent, yet if some one were to read some of the threads on this subject in this forum it would appear to be much higher than that. I have a '99 with 60,000 miles with the original final drive, original clutch and slave cylinder, and I occasionally feel as if I am borrowed time, even though I perform all maintenance duties regularly. I fully expected this bike to take me past 150,000 miles with no more than a clutch replacement somewhere along the way, but sometimes I'm not so sure. It would be a little reassuring to hear of others without these issues. Sorry if I highjacked the thread, but it seemed like an appropriate time and place to ask.
You can take a look at this poll to get some sense of the experience of the people who responded http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18429 Remember that the results of this kind of poll inherently are skewed toward the positive, i.e., the percentage of "yes" responses (I have had this problem) is higher than it would be in a random sample. In my case, early '99 with 52k, original clutch and final drive, just swapped out the slave cylinder because I was in there to drill the drain hole, original slave showed no signs of leakage, no leakage from the tranny output seal. Will be inspecting the final drive crown bearing today, will not replace unless I can see galling, flat spots, or other signs of danger. However, I will pull the final drive and inspect at each 24k maintenace from here on in.

Bill
Guilford, CT
'99 Canyon Red K1200 LT - Buddah Bike
was is offline  
post #42 of 64 Old Apr 5th, 2007, 10:48 am
Senior Member
 
Moonshine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbus, NE, USA
Posts: 261
Exclamation Clean it before imspection

Will be inspecting the final drive crown bearing today, will not replace unless I can see galling, flat spots, or other signs of danger. However, I will pull the final drive and inspect at each 24k maintenace from here on in.

Bill,

Be sure that you clean the bearing very good, like use some carburetor cleaner before you do the bearing inspection and use a magnifying glass when you do inspect the bearing. When I had my bearing replaced at 30,000 miles (preventive maintenance) the dealer checked the bearing & said it was OK, well after a really good cleaning and with the use of a magnifying glass you could see that the spalling had started in the outer race and the bearing was due to fail. A quick look will not tell you the true condition of the bearing.
Moonshine is offline  
post #43 of 64 Old Apr 5th, 2007, 2:54 pm
Member
 
Lumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Northglenn, CO, USA
Posts: 86
I replaced the rear wheel bearings on my '99 LT at 41,200 miles. I have 65,000 miles on the bike now and all is well so far.
Lumpy is offline  
post #44 of 64 Old Apr 5th, 2007, 3:31 pm
Senior Member
 
gisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX, USA
Posts: 105
56,000 still OK but my clutch is getting weak. Maybe I should start planning for an entire drive replacement????
gisman is offline  
post #45 of 64 Old Apr 5th, 2007, 5:59 pm
was
Senior Member
 
was's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Guilford, CT, USA
Posts: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
Will be inspecting the final drive crown bearing today, will not replace unless I can see galling, flat spots, or other signs of danger. However, I will pull the final drive and inspect at each 24k maintenace from here on in.

Bill,

Be sure that you clean the bearing very good, like use some carburetor cleaner before you do the bearing inspection and use a magnifying glass when you do inspect the bearing. When I had my bearing replaced at 30,000 miles (preventive maintenance) the dealer checked the bearing & said it was OK, well after a really good cleaning and with the use of a magnifying glass you could see that the spalling had started in the outer race and the bearing was due to fail. A quick look will not tell you the true condition of the bearing.
Thanks, James. I think that I don't even need to pull the bearing to inspect. Don't want to hijack this thread, see the new Dr. Kildare post.

Bill
Guilford, CT
'99 Canyon Red K1200 LT - Buddah Bike
was is offline  
post #46 of 64 Old Aug 6th, 2011, 4:54 pm
Senior Member
 
tomandmelanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Manteca, CA, USA
Posts: 117
Re: Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

After two failures I have determined the bike is a POS and I will never own a BMW again. The best way to prevent final drive failure is to tip the bike over and BURN IT.
tomandmelanie is offline  
post #47 of 64 Old Aug 6th, 2011, 5:22 pm
Wrencher Extraordinaire
 
jzeiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hazel Green, AL, USA
Posts: 13,307
Re: Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

Actually the best way to prevent final drive failures is to re-build the drive with the correct pre-load the first time. Even as a preventative measure if you have a 2002 or older bike.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jzeiler is offline  
post #48 of 64 Old Aug 6th, 2011, 7:40 pm
Senior Member
 
wa1200lt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Posts: 2,745
Re: Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

Don't burn it! I'll give you $50 cash for the POS and come get it as soon as I get 4 days off in a row. Should be toward the end of this next week.

I have to disagree with John Zeillor on this one. The best thing to do is sell it to me!

PM me so I know where to send the $50.

Loren

WAK1200LT
Loren

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui
wa1200lt is offline  
post #49 of 64 Old Aug 6th, 2011, 8:39 pm
Senior Member
 
zippy_gg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kennesaw, GA, USA
Posts: 8,125
Re: Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomandmelanie
After two failures I have determined the bike is a POS and I will never own a BMW again. The best way to prevent final drive failure is to tip the bike over and BURN IT.
So you are going to find every thread related to a FD failure and even revive a 4 and half year old thread just to rant and vent? You need a hobby... or listen to the wisdom of those who suggest you get the final drive rebuilt the proper way and never worry about it again!!!

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zippy_gg is offline  
post #50 of 64 Old Oct 9th, 2011, 7:38 am
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Little Rock, AR, USA
Posts: 12
Re: Another Rear Drive Bites the Dust - Question

Ok, I've read all these threads and I see that most of them apply to pre-2003 LTs. I own a 2007. Taking a ride from Arkansas to the FL Keys pretty soon. Should I be worried or has the problem been for the most part resolved in later year models?

Last edited by dragon22h60; Oct 9th, 2011 at 7:40 am. Reason: Clarification
dragon22h60 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rear Wheel Drive Good Arthur K1200LT 7 Nov 1st, 2013 12:44 pm
Rear or Final Drive Failure fitzy79 Australia, New Zealand, and AsiaPac 33 Jan 3rd, 2012 8:25 pm
Final Drive bites the dust/ FtWorth BMW Dealer lad South Central 19 Oct 10th, 2011 4:22 pm
'05 Rear Drive failure? McRuss K1200LT 46 Jun 17th, 2007 8:42 am
rear drive interchangeability question slmorley K1200LT 3 Oct 5th, 2005 8:06 pm

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome