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post #1 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 11:22 am Thread Starter
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Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Hey All,

I took the '05 LT last weekend through some nice twisties to Blairsville and Dahlonega GA.

Not sure if anyone has been there.

On some of the twisties, especially on the left side, when bike is leaning, I ocassionally drag the side stand.

Not sure if anyone has experienced this, but I am always hesitant to leaning sharp.

Any ideas on how to address this?
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post #2 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 11:31 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

where is your rear shock ajuster? cranking it in will raise the rear of the bike,also stiffin it up
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post #3 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 11:38 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

I get it a bit on aggressive left turns and as mentioned above, notsomuch after tweaking the load a bit.

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post #4 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 11:38 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehaughn
Hey All,

I took the '05 LT last weekend through some nice twisties to Blairsville and Dahlonega GA.

Not sure if anyone has been there.

On some of the twisties, especially on the left side, when bike is leaning, I ocassionally drag the side stand.

Not sure if anyone has experienced this, but I am always hesitant to leaning sharp.

Any ideas on how to address this?
Yep I drag mine all the time.
First question is do you have the "Stock" shocks on the bike?
If so ,How many miles on the bike?
If over 30,000 , Time for new shocks.
I did refill the "Preload" adjuster that's under the seat and was able to stiffen the ride so that it will not drag as much.
CLICKY CLICK here to see how to do it

Stevie Shreeve
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post #5 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 11:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

I have to check the damper setting, but I think it is at the lowest as I probably forget to set it back.

Bike has 22k on it.

It has the stock shocks.
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post #6 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 12:01 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Are you sure it is the side stand dragging? My centerstand is what scrapes in turns on my '07 when loaded for long trips.

Jim S.
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post #7 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 12:13 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

You think that's fun, wait till you jack the rear end off the ground with the centerstand while in a corner.

It is not you side stand, but your centerstand dragging. All the above about shocks is good and you can also cut the rubber bumpers off where they keep the stand from hitting the frame. Take a bit more than half. You'll eventually grind the centerstand foot down to where it looks like a triangle.



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post #8 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 12:43 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDragon
You can create a little more clearance by trimming down the rubber bumpers the stands rest against when in the up position.
Or, slow down, for cry-eye! You boys keep screaming by my place on them dern motosicles and keep scaring my pigs and almost running over my chickens.



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post #9 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 12:48 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots

It is not your side stand, but your centerstand dragging.

Dang....I was gonna tell him to lean to the RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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post #10 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 1:28 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Ride at night. Your riding buddies will enjoy the light show.

Life happens...you control your reaction.

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post #11 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 1:32 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Dang....I was gonna tell him to lean to the RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack ... Maybe he's a Nascar fan. You know floor it in the straights then turn left. Repeat ,Repeat, Repeat, Repeat

Stevie Shreeve
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post #12 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 1:39 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Altough I like sparks and fireworks, but I can wait until July 4th to see them.

It is definitely the side stand. It is the part the touches that ground when side stand is down.

I see a where the paint was removed.

I will try to the shock thing.
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post #13 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 1:44 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

You'll want to practice this in light traffic & lower speeds at first. Posture is important. Balls of feet on pegs, body relaxed, slight forward lean (pretend you're a shortstop and the pitcher is winding up).
For a left hand curve, glide left so your right butt cheek is on the left half of the saddle, let your left knee ease away from the side of the bike. For a right turn, glide right so your left butt cheek is on the right half of the saddle, let your right knee ease away from the side of the bike.
This allows you to get more turn with less bike lean. Make no sudden or jerky moves. Glide by using your thigh muscles to lift you slightly (not off the seat), with virtually no weight on the seat. Foot positioning and leg strength are critical. Over a long stretch your quads will feel it, but it is how racers keep speed through curves and prevent low siding. Unless you have knee pucks, don't allow your knee to drag, it'll ruin a pair of riding pants real quick. (Not sure you can drag a knee on an LT, I've never done it but I've only had it for 2 years.)

If you don't do ATGATT, don't employ this technique.

Benny C. (Central Texas)
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post #14 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 7:49 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
You think that's fun, wait till you jack the rear end off the ground with the centerstand while in a corner.

It is not you side stand, but your centerstand dragging. All the above about shocks is good and you can also cut the rubber bumpers off where they keep the stand from hitting the frame. Take a bit more than half. You'll eventually grind the centerstand foot down to where it looks like a triangle.
I did that a year ago with 46K on the stock shocks, low-sided, took the bike to the shop for some tupperware replacement and new Ohlins! Man are those shocks SWEEEEET

REPLACE YOUR SHOCKS, you'll be glad you did!

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post #15 of 44 Old May 15th, 2009, 8:25 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
You'll want to practice this in light traffic & lower speeds at first. Posture is important. Balls of feet on pegs, body relaxed, slight forward lean (pretend you're a shortstop and the pitcher is winding up).
For a left hand curve, glide left so your right butt cheek is on the left half of the saddle, let your left knee ease away from the side of the bike. For a right turn, glide right so your left butt cheek is on the right half of the saddle, let your right knee ease away from the side of the bike.
This allows you to get more turn with less bike lean. Make no sudden or jerky moves. Glide by using your thigh muscles to lift you slightly (not off the seat), with virtually no weight on the seat. Foot positioning and leg strength are critical. Over a long stretch your quads will feel it, but it is how racers keep speed through curves and prevent low siding. Unless you have knee pucks, don't allow your knee to drag, it'll ruin a pair of riding pants real quick. (Not sure you can drag a knee on an LT, I've never done it but I've only had it for 2 years.)

If you don't do ATGATT, don't employ this technique.
A good example of what Benny is describing is shown in a video in Mike's blog here. Click on the ride titled "Cheoah River Mother's Day - TL1000". And btw, sure shows how smooth Mike is (assuming that's him on the LT!!).
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post #16 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 8:18 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

No one mentioned this but there are a few mechanical reasons for sparking:

1. What gear were / are you in when you start to spark?
2. How much do you weigh and was the bike loaded?
3. What tires and pressures are you running?
4. Conditions of springs, then shocks and your settings?

It may come down to the gear you are in! If you are in first gear thats a good thing as you appear to be riding the bike at its limits . . . you are fearless and you have the skills and desire to push the bike harder than I care to do. Recommendations to provide extra clearances, shocks and tires should be in order.

If however you are in a higher gear the reason for the big lean angle is you are in too high of a gear and need to comensate with lean in order to complete the curve.

Was riding in North Carolina a few weeks ago at the STC and once again was reminded that the bike will run 60 to 65 mph in first gear. Whenever I go into a corner too hot I just downshifted and reduced the need to lean!!

At the 2009 STC (Spring Training Camp) there was about 20 of us that listened to Susan Galpin give instructions on how to quick ride and one of the main components is RPM's. Susan gave lessons on Saturday is was very revealing on how the bike RPM's have everything to do with lean angle and speed thru a corner . . . one other benefit is not requring brakes - unless you "come to a stop sign" that is a quote from Susan!!

Just my 2 cents . . .

Dan Finazzo
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post #17 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 9:10 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Ain't no sportbike.
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post #18 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 9:50 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

You're only dragging on one side? I get'em both when I'm riding two up. Ohlin shocks in full press and quite the spark show on the Dragon. Ain't that right Pastor Jack?

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post #19 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 10:20 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
You're only dragging on one side? I get'em both when I'm riding two up. Ohlin shocks in full press and quite the spark show on the Dragon. Ain't that right Pastor Jack?
Wimp! You should be dragging both sides one up, well, let's forget that gravel thang, though. WHO loves you?



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post #20 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 11:27 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

In hard corners with two up I can drag the side stand on the left side. Not really a problem, because it doesn't straigten you up it just scrapes. However, on hard right turns with two up I can and do scrape the center stand and that is a lot less fun because it seems to dig in more. I have Ohlin shocks and now that i"ve tweaked the rear for both stiffness and compression it happens a lot less and the bike is much less likely to wobble in high speed sweeping turns, too.

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post #21 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 11:47 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
Wimp! You should be dragging both sides one up, well, let's forget that gravel thang, though. WHO loves you?
I know I should have had the balls of my feet on the pegs instead of heel hooked, but I was using the toe of my boots for feelers.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orde...6060737&po=737

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post #22 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 12:39 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Good pics, Steve! Interesting Paralever torque arm. Still looking forward to riding with you one day. Need vacation to free up. The kids are getting older, so a CCR may not be too far off. So many things to do and not enough vacation days to do them in.

Back to the subject, looking at my underside, seems only my center stand has been making contact with pavement. I am still a beginner on the LT with only 2 years on her. Preload fill & adjust is all I've done so far. There's new shocks in my future. Bones is still running stock too and we're about the same mileage.

Farkles becon me....

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post #23 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 12:55 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyBob
Bones is still running stock too and we're about the same mileage.
When Bones got off his bike giggling about a personal best after we ran the Observatory Loop, I wonder what he meant? BTW, him and Wolfgang were chasing a GT and an FJR.



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post #24 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 1:04 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by mljmd7
Ain't no sportbike.
It's not????
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post #25 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 5:10 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
When Bones got off his bike giggling about a personal best after we ran the Observatory Loop, I wonder what he meant? BTW, him and Wolfgang were chasing a GT and an FJR.
Now that GT, would it might just could maybe be the Grifmobile?

The stock suspension on the LT is just a tad soft. Been noodling about the Hyperpro spring combi kit or totally new (Ohlins, Wilbers, Hyperpro, or Works). Will have to decide soon, right after I replace the front tire.

The LT ain't a GT but I have loved mine from the first ride. Not as flickable as a lighter bike, but two up, I've never been on a sweeter ride.

Benny C. (Central Texas)
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post #26 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 7:28 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinazzo
No one mentioned this but there are a few mechanical reasons for sparking:

1. What gear were / are you in when you start to spark?
2. How much do you weigh and was the bike loaded?
3. What tires and pressures are you running?
4. Conditions of springs, then shocks and your settings?

It may come down to the gear you are in! If you are in first gear thats a good thing as you appear to be riding the bike at its limits . . . you are fearless and you have the skills and desire to push the bike harder than I care to do. Recommendations to provide extra clearances, shocks and tires should be in order.

If however you are in a higher gear the reason for the big lean angle is you are in too high of a gear and need to comensate with lean in order to complete the curve.

Was riding in North Carolina a few weeks ago at the STC and once again was reminded that the bike will run 60 to 65 mph in first gear. Whenever I go into a corner too hot I just downshifted and reduced the need to lean!!

At the 2009 STC (Spring Training Camp) there was about 20 of us that listened to Susan Galpin give instructions on how to quick ride and one of the main components is RPM's. Susan gave lessons on Saturday is was very revealing on how the bike RPM's have everything to do with lean angle and speed thru a corner . . . one other benefit is not requring brakes - unless you "come to a stop sign" that is a quote from Susan!!

Just my 2 cents . . .
What? Lean angle while cornering isn't a function of RPM. It is a function of speed and center of gravity of the bike/rider combination. I can go through a given curve at the same speed an lean angle and do so in at least three different gears at three different RPMs.

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post #27 of 44 Old May 16th, 2009, 8:37 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

I prefer to keep my toes on the pegs in twisties, makes it easier to control reaction to the sudden bump and lift when the peg scrapes... which you'll get to after you've worn off the sidestand... the bike can handle it easily, particularly if you keep the revs up. enjoy it...

btw, watched that vid (Mike) that Dick linked to... looks like a nice place to ride, but scary sitting behind that other rider... too many bad lines, and winding up on the wrong side.... not good.

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post #28 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 6:27 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjordans2000
It's not????
GET OUT!

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2014 CCR-Chattanooga
2015 CCR-Coeur d 'Alene


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post #29 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 6:54 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
Wimp! You should be dragging both sides one up, well, let's forget that gravel thang, though. WHO loves you?
Yea and about that gravel thang .... Steve has been memorialized (is that even a word?)


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post #30 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 7:57 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

I tend to keep the balls of the feet (not the arch) on the pegs and the toes pointed in; the foot pegs drag before the foot and I wouldn't want to catch the foot on something.

Many during the ERC will drag a peg and the reaction is remarkable; some will suddenly jerk their foot up at the sensation and then look down to see what it was! It's best to practice (well, at least once, anyway) dragging the pegs; with the wife/SO on the back, it's not so . . . unexpected.

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post #31 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 9:25 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
What? Lean angle while cornering isn't a function of RPM. It is a function of speed and center of gravity of the bike/rider combination. I can go through a given curve at the same speed an lean angle and do so in at least three different gears at three different RPMs.
I thought the same thing until a 60 year old woman taught me a thing or two about riding motorcycles. I also spent some time with Susan Galpin at STC last month and I now take the turns faster, have more control over the bike and stopped dragging parts. Having the bike in the powerband between 6,000 and 8,000 rpm makes a huge difference in how the bike performs and handles. Most bikes Susan recommends to use the first digit on the yellow road signs to pick the gear to use ie: 25 mph sign use second gear, 35 use third gear. With the LT she recommends dropping it one gear lower than that. If you are doing it right you shouldn't be on the brakes hard before getting into a turn and smooth acceleration through the turn. I know that running such a high RPM seems uncomfortable but it does make a difference and the bike can handle it. Having power to the rear wheel through out the turn stands the bike up. The tires have a bigger contact patch and much more control.

Two other important factors are balls of feet on pegs and get your head up and look into the turn. This will get your body into the proper position.

While riding with Susan we stopped by the Deal's Gap resort and the guy who runs the place stopped what he was doing when he saw Susan to come out and say hi and backed up what Susan was teaching. I think almost all the guys that went to STC this year feel the same way and I know the guys that rode with her there know first hand that this technique works.

Dave Fuchs
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1985 KLR 250
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post #32 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 5:53 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

The lean angle simply displaces the CG to the inside in order to offset centrifugal force. Speed, CG, and curve radius are principal factors involved in that dance. That's why counterweighting to the inside of a turn allows a lesser lean angle for a given speed and curve radius, as someone noted earlier: the placement of the CG to the inside of the curve is all that's required and it doesn't matter if that's done by leaning the bike or moving your body (although most people aren't heavy enough to do the job alone.) That's true for all two wheeled vehicles, as bicycle riders realize.

I don't know what she's attributing to RPM, other than the ability to use engine braking and to have better response by staying well into the torque band, but there's no direct relationship between RPM or gear ratios, and lean angle except as they relate to speed. You can demonstrate that to yourself pretty easily two ways. Were it the case that lean angle was dependent on RPM and decreased with higher RPM for a given speed, it must also increase as the RPM drops. The most obvious demonstration of that is a bicycle which, having a typical pedal cadence of around 60 to 100 RPM would require extreme lean angles for a given speed and curve it RPM effected lean angle. Obviously they don't. Or, of course, the next time you're in a stable constant radius curve reduce your RPM. I guarantee you won't see an increased lean angle for the speed.

It may be a motorcycle, but it's all physics and nothing more. The ONLY thing other than responsiveness in changing power setting that engine RPM contributes to the discussion is gyroscopic effects from the rotating mass, and as it happens when the axis of rotation is the same as the axis of lean -as in an LT with a longitudinally mounted engine- there is no effect on leaning whatever. (An axis of rotation perpendicular to the axis of lean -such as found in engines with a transverse crankshaft- would cause leaning to create a yawing force 90 degrees to the axis of lean, and that force is likely near impossible to notice.)
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post #33 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 7:43 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

The LT can hang with MOST sportbikes...
Even the squidly ones.

I have never noticed, does the LT drag?

http://www.ridewnc.com/video/Cheoah.wmv

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post #34 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 9:18 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeERideWNC
The LT can hang with MOST sportbikes...
Even the squidly ones.

I have never noticed, does the LT drag?

http://www.ridewnc.com/video/Cheoah.wmv
Nice video, but whose the guy you're filming? Why's he moving around in the seat, trying to hang off at speeds not requiring such riding. These antics appear to cause him to change lines mid-corner and weave all over. A smoother, faster rider would make for some great films out where you live.


BTW, on the side stand question, I bent mine, and the attach bolt when I temporarily lost the front end on Wayah Road during STC. But it was okay since I straightened it back up and drove away. My left knee and thigh are still a little sore though.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
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post #35 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 9:50 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeERideWNC
The LT can hang with MOST sportbikes...
Even the squidly ones.

I have never noticed, does the LT drag?

http://www.ridewnc.com/video/Cheoah.wmv
Yeah, that was a squidly rider alright. Is he on an Aprilia or TL1000? He crossed that center line but his pace seemed very slow. Yes, the LT was very smooth, held it's line very well. I just got nervous watching this person struggle through the corners. At least he had full leathers on.
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post #36 of 44 Old May 17th, 2009, 10:28 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

We were running about 80mph...

I don't know who he was...
Just a usual Florida rider vacationing in the mountains.

Yesterday, I had some Florida guy on a VFR shorten a right hander in front of me.
Yep... He went right past the white line onto the shoulder for about 100 feet then back on.
He was very lucky.
If any of you have ever noticed the shoulder here in NC, The locals can't drive between the lines, so there is a six inch drop from the road surface to a trench then back up to the shoulder.
This guy was flying right through it.
I was surprised to see him actually correct and safely get back on the road without crashing.
Unfortunately, I haven't mounted the camera on my VFR, yet.

I have been running a camera on every ride lately.
Most people never seem to believe the stories that I tell of the inexperienced riders that visit here.
The videos prove it...

EVERYONE crosses the yellow line up here! EVERYONE!

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post #37 of 44 Old May 18th, 2009, 8:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
What? Lean angle while cornering isn't a function of RPM. It is a function of speed and center of gravity of the bike/rider combination. I can go through a given curve at the same speed an lean angle and do so in at least three different gears at three different RPMs.
Tires are new, only 1k or so on them.

I have the Metzler's tires. I am running 42 psi in front and 48 psi in rear.

I also have the "fat foot" on the side stand, which is scraping in the turns.

I weigh 215 lbs

Shocks have 24k miles on them.

The shocks are in the softest position.

I also ride 2 up.
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post #38 of 44 Old May 18th, 2009, 9:00 am Thread Starter
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

I agree. I read this in a book, need to practice this.
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post #39 of 44 Old May 18th, 2009, 9:01 am Thread Starter
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailwheel
I thought the same thing until a 60 year old woman taught me a thing or two about riding motorcycles. I also spent some time with Susan Galpin at STC last month and I now take the turns faster, have more control over the bike and stopped dragging parts. Having the bike in the powerband between 6,000 and 8,000 rpm makes a huge difference in how the bike performs and handles. Most bikes Susan recommends to use the first digit on the yellow road signs to pick the gear to use ie: 25 mph sign use second gear, 35 use third gear. With the LT she recommends dropping it one gear lower than that. If you are doing it right you shouldn't be on the brakes hard before getting into a turn and smooth acceleration through the turn. I know that running such a high RPM seems uncomfortable but it does make a difference and the bike can handle it. Having power to the rear wheel through out the turn stands the bike up. The tires have a bigger contact patch and much more control.

Two other important factors are balls of feet on pegs and get your head up and look into the turn. This will get your body into the proper position.

While riding with Susan we stopped by the Deal's Gap resort and the guy who runs the place stopped what he was doing when he saw Susan to come out and say hi and backed up what Susan was teaching. I think almost all the guys that went to STC this year feel the same way and I know the guys that rode with her there know first hand that this technique works.
I agree.
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post #40 of 44 Old May 18th, 2009, 3:59 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehaughn
I also have the "fat foot" on the side stand, which is scraping in the turns.
There ya go and that's why you're scraping it. Don't worry, you'll knock that booger smoothe off before you know it and that annoying dragging will stop...... until you start dragging the center stand.



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post #41 of 44 Old May 19th, 2009, 5:10 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjordans2000
It's not????

Well.......................ok
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post #42 of 44 Old May 19th, 2009, 7:54 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

It finally happened today...

I ground throgh my second side stand...
I went to put the stand down and the little arm bent off.
Thank God I have a spare. I think I will wait until the side stand is no longer functional this time.
I actually got 10,000 miles out of this side stand.


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post #43 of 44 Old May 20th, 2009, 9:51 am
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeERideWNC
It finally happened today...

I ground throgh my second side stand...
I went to put the stand down and the little arm bent off.
Thank God I have a spare. I think I will wait until the side stand is no longer functional this time.
I actually got 10,000 miles out of this side stand.


Mike,

With your riding style, you may want to get your next stand hard faced. Maybe Cobalt or similar. There has to be a shop nearby that works on Dozers.

I would love to see a titanium insert. Imagine the shower of sparks coming off that puppy.

Joe

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post #44 of 44 Old May 20th, 2009, 8:47 pm
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Re: Side Stand Drag on Twisties

You see... That would cost money. I can get a side stand for 20.00 on eBay.

The sparks would look cool...
But think of the poor bastards behind me.

I can't wait for my Duc to be out of the shop... It doesn't drag.

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