It looks like San Jose BMW will have my sidecar rig finally ready this weekend. It has been there since the beginning of October. They faxed me the bill to review today and I about fell out of my seat. They replaced the motor and clutch, replaced the left fan motor, and put a new rotor and pads on the sidecar that I supplied. The total came to $6700. They had 38 hrs of labor on it. There was a charge of $1600 to diagnose that it needed a new motor and fan. They are telling me they have more hours into it then they are charging me for ($85/hr). There was about $3200 in parts. I was a little shocked by the labor charges. Especially the diagnosis charges. I spoke with the owner and he feels totally justified in the charges and that is how much time his mechanic spent on it. BMW national has denied any warranty work because of the sidecar. National will not even cover the fan saying the sidecar causes the bike to run hotter and causes the fan to run more often causing it to fail. I guess I have no choice but to pay the bill . I was just wondering what you guys thought of these charges and are they out of line considering they had to work on it with a sidecar frame.

Sounds very high. We don't know enough about the details of your agreement with the dealer, but a stop limit should have been negotiated in advance, I'd guess, and it would have been a courtesy for them to keep you advised as to how many hours they thought it would take, and how many they were piling up as the project went alone.

Here is one lesson learned by me from your expensive ordeal: If you want a sidecar on your LT, (which I have considered) consider the LT a throw-away, or parts bike once you commit to the sidecar.

Therefore, one might consider using an older LT for this project, as one can be had for nearly the same as your repair costs. It looks like if you use a new one, this manufacturer does a warranty walkaway. I wonder if that is true with Honda and others? Sure haven't heard of it.

As for your bill, I'd pitch a bitch for their lack of communication. Good luck and thanks for the lesson.

A $1600 diagnostic charge is a bit too much for them to conclude that you need to replace the motor anyway. Plus ... how hard is it to diagnose a failed cooling fan motor assuming the bike came in due to overheating. They should at least apply a major part of the diagnostic expense into the the R&R labor.

BTW, If the dealer hasn't done this, the consumer needs to be given an estimate of the diagnostic and repair costs and duly approved by him prior to start of work. Any additional cost MUST FIRST BE APPROVED BY THE CUSTOMER AND DOCUMENTED ACCORDINGLY. That is the law here in California. After 20 some years being in the auto repair business DAMHIK.

M2CW

That seems very high to diagnose it. That works out to more than 2 days to figure out the motor and such is shot. The install is probably pretty fair.

I had the motor replaced in an RX7 a few years ago and the install was $2,900. There was no charge to diagnose it.

I can only tell you that you are not the 1st person to be shocked by an enormous repair or maintainance bill from a BMW dealer. ANY work perfrmed by BMW dealers will cost you an arm and a leg.

you gotta remember that it says B-M-W on the bike.

Did you receive an estimate for the work before they started?

Did they notify you of the costs to install the parts after diagnosis?

If they did and they over shot the estimate, that is your only recourse.

I've got 4 BMWs: a 528i, 325i, k1200lte and an 1150gs. I've had BMW automobiles over the last 20 years. I've never had a repair bill that high. The highest I've ever experienced is about $2,500.

I'm getting more and more to the point of doing as much of my own work as possible. I've been very disappointed with the quality of service at one dealer I've been to. This type of experience confirms that its best to stay out of the dealership except for warranty claims and those things that are impossible for the individual person to perform.

Tom

I think you were raped...(rant on) 16 hours to diagnose a bad cooling fan?
I'd be so ashamed if I were the tech I'd have not charged you a dime..
Technician's are supposed to be professionals. Troubleshooting is a very methodical thing. You start at one end and work your way to the other.. Anything more than an hour for troubleshooting and the technician must have been an idiot... I'm sorry to be so harsh but I am a professional troubleshooter and it shouldn't take more than an hour to troubleshoot almost anything found in the consumer world...Yeah, if it was the Space Shuttle or something like that. But a bad cooling fan.......No Way !!

If the world continues to revolve around this kind of greed things are going to go very bad very soon...Maybe I should open a bike shop and work on BMW's .. I could charge twice as much as the dealer and the final bill would still be half of what the dealer charges....

(Rant off)

John

I am looking at a 02 LTE rig with a hannigan 2+2, can you give any info on ride, comfort of the car, any safety issues.

Agree 100%, That's what I do.

It boggles my mind they can't test a cooling fan in just a few minutes. I am no master mechanic but it wouldn't take but a few minutes to check that puppy out. If I were the tech I would be embarrassed it took me that long to figure out the fan was bad. And how "freakin" long does it take to determine that you need a new clutch and Engine. Did they take it apart and check all tolerances on every bolt, shaft, screw, etc.etc......... That's just plain robbery.......
My unskilled 2 cents.

Ouch. - now, if they included new hoses, belts, vacuum lines for the rat's nest, install kit. etc. - you did OK. Those parts are worth their weight in gold these days.

BTW, did you know there are BRAND NEW OEM motors available for the 93 to 95 FD3S? A dealer in the east has a stash of about 30 of 'em

Mine name is literally on one of them.

Sam,

When I put my Hannigan Astro Sport on my '00 in late 02 (I bought the bike used), I pretty much presumed that any remaining warranty (and there was some) would be null and void. But I was lucky and my favorite dealer supported a couple warranty claims (replaced the CD changer, motronic (took 10 months) a few other minor things). BUT, I had no reasonable expectation that any drivetrain issues would be handled under warranty (Thankfully, I've not had any problems). Note that I took the sidecar off the bike so that it wouldn't take up so much room in their small shop for the CD changer work, and the shop manager asked me to take the hack off when he called to say that the motronic replacement was in.

There are a very small handfull of bike manufacturers (Harley, Ural, Cheng Shing (SP?)) that will support mounting a sidecar. No others, to my knowledge.

Having said all that.....

The dealer should have communicated with you about on-going escalation of the repairs. BUT, why weren't you calling him???

I've not noticed a difference in the heat management when pulling the hack versus riding with the hack off. Of course, you did not provide much info about the problem for which you took the bike in to the shop.

J.

Hi Sam - I thought that was your rig at SJ BMW. While the bill is steep, Chris and crew aren't in the habit of gouging people, if anything they tend to undercharge or eat a few hours of labor when things get expensive. Is it possible the larger labor charges are due to having to remove and reinstall the sidecar?

I have two BMW cars now, a 525i and a 740iL, purchased them used. I REALLY like the way they drive, and the way they hold up over a LOT of miles, body, interior, etc.

BUT: If I could not do the work on them I would probably not own them very long. On my '94 525i I do have one recurring itermittent "Trans Program" error when decelerating, did everything I could to diagonse the problem myself, finally took it to a dealer to see what their diagnosis was. Well, they pulled the codes, and said they never repair transmissions, so I would need a new one, at over $4,000. I only paid $6,500 for the car a couple years ago. That was two visits in one, my first, and last time to take a BMW car to a dealer for anything! If I ever need something I cannot do myself, I will find a good independent BMW shop.

I put a pushbutton in the DME power line to the trans controller, and now if I get the error I just hit the button and reset it. The tranny never gives me any indication of anything wrong, shifts just fine and is always smooth. I will drive it until it decides there is really something wrong, and rebuild it myself.

I have the code reader, so can do most of the diagnosis work myself.

Hi Sam -

Just curious - when you brought them your bike - did you leave in your turbo-carrera or your M5 - perhaps they saw you coming!

I agree w/ the consenus - the diagnostic charges seem a tad high - hope you can persuade them into some form of credit.

David,
Do you remmember were did you buy the code reader?
I have a 1992 525i and also would like to have it.
Thank you

I have the Peake Research R5/FCX (II) unit for the engine codes, http://www.peakeresearch.com/code_tool.htm

Got it here:
http://www.bimmerzone.com/resettool.htm#1

It works on both the 525 and 740

I also have a different reader that is supposed to read all codes on the cars, got it on eBay, but it does not read some of the modules that it is supposed to. Not recommending that one.

Thank you
Order one

Ah, were it always so easy! If the engine had to be replaced, it was obviously more than just a bad cooling fan.

Case file #1: vehicle gets towed into the shop with a no-start condition. Battery has exploded under the hood. Fairly simple diagnosis, right? Replace the battery, car now cranks but won't start. More diagnosis - no "Check Engine" light with the key on. Bulb is burned out in dash. Light comes on now, but still no start. More diagnosis - no fuel pressure, pump is not running. Now what? Fuel pump relay contacts are burned. New relay. Now we have pressure, but still won't start. More diagnosis - shorted injector windings have taken out the driver circuits in the ECU. New injectors and ECU installed. Car now starts, but ... alternator is going full field due to a bad regulator. That explains the exploded battery, shorted injectors and burned bulb. New alternator. Test drive - trans won't shift. More diagnosis. Shorted shift solenoids in transmission, and (you guessed it) the TCU is fried, too. Get that fixed and find out the ABS isn't working. It went on and on, eventually replacing multiple bulbs, control units, relays, even parts of the wiring harness. The problem was, it was impossible to know what didn't work until you fixed one problem, and fixing that would lead you to the next thing that didn't work. By the time the car was repaired, there were well over 20 hours of legitimate diagnostic time involved.

Case file #2: owner complains of a vibration in the vehicle, only in the morning after driving about 10 miles. Vibration only lasts a few seconds, but is so bad you can feel it in the steering wheel and up through the seats. Test drive the vehicle and find nothing. Inspect the front end, steering, brakes, suspension, tires, drive axles - all good. Return it to the customer and he calls the next day. It did it again. Ask him to leave car with us overnight to check it cold in the morning. Next morning, drive it again for about 30 miles without duplication. Return it to the customer. Get a call the next morning, it's still there. Agreed to meet the customer at his house in the morning and ride with him while he drives to work. 10 miles into the drive, he runs over the "rumble strips" in the road. Hours of diagnostic time wasted.

(BTW, I'm a regional troubleshooter for one of the auto manufacturers.)

Way2fast,, I'm in agreement with most here. The bill is not that far out of line except for the trouble shooting charge. Tat_n_Telle has made some very good points also.. Try going to the dealer and see if he can walk you through $1600. worth of trouble shooting. I did 20 years of aviation maintenance in the Marines and if one of my troops would have taken 2 days to troubleshoot a bad engine I'd have beat him to death...Well gave him guard duty anyway......Regards Pete

Yep, the diagnostic cost was and is ridiculous; an untrained eye could have taken that long to diagnose the bad parts but a trained BMW tech should have cracked the code much quicker. They need to credit you some hours.

I have never tried a Hannigan rig. The Armec is different due to the leading link suspension. I know Ron who goes by Batbyke had a Hannigan but it was on a goldwing I think. Go to sidecar.com and I am sure you will get all your questions answered.

I did speak with Chris the owner yesterday about all the charges. I don't think he is trying to rip me off and he seemed honest in the fact that have put in more hours then they charged me for. I just cannot figure out how some of these things took so long. Here is a list of their charges.

Diagnose engine noise:
R&R cylinder head 5hrs
R&R sidecar mounts 3hrs
addl labor needed 8hrs

total $1344

Labor to renew brake pad/rotor 2 hrs

total $168

Diagnose overheating: 1.5 hrs
total $128

fan part $125

Renew Engine Parts including clutch $3271

Labor to renew engine 15hrs $1260

Diagnose and bleed brakes $189

They did keep me informed in that it would take extra hours to remove sidecar and diagnose problem but I didn't not think it would take 5hrs just to remove the head and tell me one cylinder ring was busted and scored the wall requiring a new motor.
I was told the motor was around $3K and I expected a bill of around $5k and not $6700.
Again they always kept me informed about what was going on but I never asked for a total. Like I could of done anything about it anyway.

Sam,
Sorry to hear of the problem and the outrageous charges. Some of these dealers seem to like to charge extra for "sidecar interference", that's why I started doing as much of my own work as possible. This summer I had overheating problem while at Niagra Falls. Was lucky I didn't burn-up engine. I had to have both radiators replaced. Work was done at Leo's BMW south of Minneapolis. They didn,t charge extra for having the sidecar.

Yesterday, at 104,000 miles my clutch decided that it had had enough abuse and started slipping. Unfortunatly this is more that I can handle. Got a quote of $1577 today for replacement plus any additional seals and of course "sidecar interference". (BTW that's at A&S).

Good luck on renegotiating the charges.

Marv Lewis
Loomis, CA
'99 K1200LTC/ARMEC/EZS

Mine fell over in the garage and hit my wifes car, $2500.00

Are you saying they charged you 1600 dollars to diagnose a cooling fan motor?

I must be missing something right?
or are you saying they replaced your Engine, clutch and cooling fan motor?

Tom

No IMHO your 2 cents is correct - Now I will say,
if the engine needed replaced and the owner approved tear down and diagnoses then the diagnoses labor could get high real quick,

but IMHO as a tech for many years they should have been able to recomend whether or not the engine actually needed replaced or repair without charging 1600 for diagnoses. Sheesh! Sorry but unless I am completly missing something going on and/or we are not getting the full story that price is absurd!

Tom

Check the list of charges I posted. The $1600 was to diagnois the problem. There is no changing of this bill. I have spoken with the owner and he is not changing anything. What really worries me is that if anything is wrong with the new motor there is still no warranty on it. When I talked to the service manager last he said they could not get the ABS lights to stop blinking (they were find when I brought it in) and he wants to charge more hrs to solve the problem.

1600 for diagnoses is absurd, and I've worked Tech for about 20 years and about 7 with FoMoCo, 1600 diagnoses!

<snip> What really worries me is that if anything is wrong with the new motor there is still no warranty on it

BMW replacement parts come with a warranty. I believe it should be a minimum of 12 M 12000Mi. The deal is smelling very Fishy if they are not telling you about the warranty.Good Luck
Pete aka murray

ok this is a mluti reply post let me start with

no warranty on the new motor? was it a used engine? we are talking about the NEW ENGINE right? ya know 4 pistons crankshaft <g> you approved that? you approved for them to put in a new engine with no warranty? if they did not tell you there was no warranty It's time for a attorney then, I'm telling ya my thoughts are they scalped you every chance, maybe not directly ripped you off,IMHO

read on for the why I think this

ok here goes my thoughts

>Diagnose engine noise:
>R&R cylinder head 5hrs

Ok that is reasonable, poor tech diagnoses IMHO but reasonable and might have really been needed for proper diagnoses,

but should not IMO been part of the final bill, since they more than likely did not REPLACE the head, it should have knocked off the labor charges for engine replace as well since they had to take most of it off - plastic and half the DAMN bike! anyway, sure there might have been a hour or so overlap but that is about it.


>R&R sidecar mounts 3hrs

Sounds more than fair fair!

>addl labor needed 8hrs
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
additional labor for what?


>Labor to renew brake pad/rotor 2 hrs $168

Sounds fair


> Diagnose overheating: 1.5 hrs

a hour and half for overheating diagnoses sounds a little high to me but might have been something silly (it took me about 5 minutes to find my left cooling fan was not coming on and check for voltage to it, had voltage. but the plastic was off,

>Renew Engine Parts including clutch $3271

prolly corrrect or close


> Labor to renew engine 15hrs $1260

See this is where I have a BIG problem, they charged you 5 hours for taking off the head because the tech couldn;t tell where the engine noise is, then they charge you 15 hours to R&R the engine for something they already had all the plastic off of and the Head removed and they chraged you 8hrs addl labor for what?

> Diagnose and bleed brakes $189

diagnose your brakes? why? was there something wrong with them?

sorry but I don;t buy it, poor diagnoses IMO, unreasonable double labor charges By double I mean they are doiuble dipping the labor time

charged for R&R head
Charged for R&R engine
Charged additional 8 hrs

sorry but to take th ehead off you have knocked a good chuck of engine swap crap out of the way

Talk to a lawyer about the No Warranty !

other wise if you approved all this you are screwed and you screwed up in doing so.



if the later think of it this way you only through away about
500-800 bucks, unless of course your engine blows up next week, then you just through away the whole bill.

lit a match to what 6500 bucks?

Damn I think they took advantage of you here.

JMHO
Tom

and I think they have changed that to two years now. I think he said there will be no warranty because of the hack.

your right though something smells fishy unless of course it is like 20 hours labor to R&R a engine in one of the K1200LT's
then it could be correct or darn close.

got to run See ya!
Tom

Sam -

F...ing A - Bring your dental drill and a bottle of clove oil and ask "Is it fixed?"

Seriously - this whole thing is too loosey-goosey. Isn't it funny how they are telling you we didn't charge for this and that - and yet you are getting a bill that is much higher than you expected.

Sounds like it is time to read the fineprint in your paperwork. Your position should be that you want to pay for the work that they do. They are not going to want to regenerate paperwork for the work they "didn't charge you for" because then you will have 2 sets of paperwork and it will look like they are making it up as they go along (which is what they are doing!) Make them provide more detail for the time spent and tasks performed for the $1,600 diagnostics.

Tell them you are willing to pay what is fair, and if you can not come to an agreement then you will be contacting BMW 1st, and if necessary, your lawyer 2nd.

And, if they are reading these posts along with the rest of us then hopefully they will realize that in the long run they will lose more business than the $1,600 currently in dispute.

Good luck!

I’ve worked in the auto industry for man years both as a mechanic and as a service manager. To charge someone that king of diagnostic time is crazy. There are times when you just have to eat excessive diagnostic time plain and simple. That’s why you pay $85 for a technician. If they recovered enough to cover the tech’s time that’s plenty for the OTJ On the job training.

If these guys stick to their guns I’d be seeing them in court. The law is there for victims to you know.

After reading the more detailed breakdown of the charges, I have to question the "additional 8 hours" diagnostic as well. Bad ring and scored cylinder wall, requiring a leakdown test and removal of the cylinder head for inspection (did they charge to reinstall it? No need to, unless only the engine block was being replaced) I can buy. 1.5 for the overheat? Maybe, but not if the only thing wrong was a fan that wasn't running. Where do they get the extra 8 hours from? They are already charging for the sidecar mounts, so that's not it.
No warranty on the engine? Not if it's a new one, unless they are saying the sidecar voids the warranty.
They did brake work, and now the ABS lights are flashing, and they want time to diagnose THAT??? Wow, I'd love to work flat rate in that shop!

Some of these Birds don't think that people have any common sense. Some service managers try to duplicate time in a flat rate shop, charging over and over for the same repair that is covered in another operation.That why insurance companies have claim adjusters review and go over estimates for body shop repairs. Oh yea and in some case the shops are just plain crooked.

Sorry Sam! This stinks. Sounds like they're double dipping on "book" labor.

Hope your Poker game is up to snuff. One good night at the table could cover this!

Pretty typical rip off. And I can feel the arrogance of the dealer.

You don't think it had anything to do with the letters after your name, do you? It shouldn't make any difference, but real life says sometimes it does. It would seem that the diagnosis part of the bill might be out of line as others have said.

Too bad about this situation. Leaves a bad taste after an otherwise great meal.

Be sure to ask the dealer if he needs a good dentist.

jim

Thanks for everyones input. Like I say I have talked with the owner and he feels they have more hours into in it then they are charging me for. I called about picking it up last Saturday but the ABS lights were still blinking. I asked the service manager if they had fixed that and he said no because I had told them I didn't want to spend any more hours on it. I told him they were not blinking when I brought the bike in and that they should not be blinking when I pick it up. He just said OK so I persume they will fix it and not charge me but we will see what happens when I call them on Tuesday. The engine is not warrantied for the same reason it was not covered in the first place and that is because of the sidecar. So if it blows up right away I have to eat it again.
What really pissed me off with BMW National is that the West Coast Regional tech who denied the warranty will not talk to me on the phone. I told the National Customer Rep that after buying since 2001 an M3, 745i, M5, and the K1200LT that I at least deserve a phone call. I told them if the service tech will not call me I would like his supervisor or someone with the authority to overrule him to at least give me a call. I told him otherwise BMW could care less about my business I have given them and you are putting me in the position of never buying a BMW product again. He said he would see what he could do so we will see what happens next week.

"I told him otherwise BMW could care less about my business I have given them and you are putting me in the position of never buying a BMW product again. He said he would see what he could do so we will see what happens next week."

If/When you reach impasse with BMW, I would like to suggest that you outline the case as fully and accurately as you can...if there is more to add. It would then be good to get as many members of this forum as we can to notify BMW that we find the above case "disturbing, disconcerting, giving us pause, wondering why we are dealing with a company with such a lack of communication and cooperation with a loyal customer, and so on." One customer is an issue for BMW...hundreds of customers is a disaster.

The survey I would like to see is how many bikes have had a fan replaced. BMW denied the warranty for the fan. The reasoning was that the sidecar caused the bike to run hotter causing the fan to run more causing it to fail. I would like to know how many fans have failed on bikes without sidecars.

I just tried to get my bike serviced at San Jose BMW and they said they will no longer see me there because of the above post. I paid them in full and never questioned their charges after this post. I needed to get my oil changed and check a small oil drip and decided to use them since they put in the new motor and figured they should do the first service and check the leak.
Let this be a lesson to anyone who questions their charges on the internet.

Gee, do you think providing the actual facts is a problem? I suppose they are the facts, right? hmmm...

Sounds like a serious ethical concern is involved here. The dealer is expecting way too much from you without letting you know in advance that it would cost that much.

I would have a major dispute with them. It sounds as if they are trying to punish you for putting a side car on your bike. I have never seen someone take so long to diagnose a problem. If the motor is shot, the motor is shot.

Sounds like that their tech is not competent.. If anything, they are burning their bridges and it probably isn't the first time they have tried to do this.

I would contact the attorney general and/or your lawyer and not deal with them directly anymore. Even a lawyer helping you out doesn't cost that kind of money.

So they are refusing to honor a warranty leak then, well Now I'm glad that this post has been made as I will make sure i never stop there while I'm traveling, and if need of repair I will know to tow thebike elsewhere as they will not honor a warranty if thier repair fails

all good information for all of us

I am soo glad I have a good dealer to deal with now!

Are you shitting me? A retarded monkey eating onion rings with his good hand could tell you needed a new motor in less than 18+hrs thats what they are charging you Thats why you took the bike in there to start with.
I think you are getting ripped off, period, that 18 hours sounds more like the real total time to swap out the motor, even with a hack frame, (Including your paying them for lunch time)
I agree that you should see a lawyer, and if they don't step up and fix it real quick every BMW rider on the net should pass the word to:
BOYCOTT SAN JOSE BMW
This is why dealerships have to close their doors.
Your money will spend at any dealership.
Rock

One of my first huge arguments on this site was when I asked what was the "normal charge" for a 12K service. I ended up paying $324...and that included something extra; can't remember at the moment. A west-coaster told me that he and his wife took both of their BMWs into a shop for their 12K service and paid $1,100 per bike! I told him that he had more money than brains, and I was quickly and harshly criticized for that statement. Many people stated that I didn't understand the cost of living out on the west coast. I can't argue with you there.

So is $6,700 too high of a repair bill? No sir. Not at all. That's the price you pay for all that sunshine . . . I guess.

Ah Joe glad to see the GT hasn't softened you up.
$1600 @ $85 per hour comes to over 18 hrs. Maybe were in the wrong business.
The BMW Tech tool kits now come with a Big Gouge, with attatchment to hold the walet open. The Geman made model retails for, who cares just add it to the customers bill!
Rock

Once upon a time I built a beautiful Guzzi Ural rig. It was about the time Guzzi was starting to have problems with hydraulic lifters. I built the rig when the bike was within warranty and still young at heart. All was well until the lifters started cackling. Fortunately, my dealer was a good friend and told me to dismantle the rig and restore the bike to stock before the Guzzi rep could see it.
To make a long story short, Guzzi Company got screwy and I ended up trading the bike. It would have cost me almost $4k to repair the bike with the sidecar even though the sidecar had ZERO to do with the problems. Guzzi would have made me eat that one.