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post #1 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 5:02 am Thread Starter
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Question Final Drive Failure Pics

I'm gonna say to begin with that the subject may be wrong. From what I see the metal pieces I found when I drained the oil could come from foreign object I found. At least I think it is foreign. Not quit sure what it is or where it came from. The first two pics are of the object where I found it. The next two pics are of both sides of the object with the FD cover as the background. The next pic is really hard to see but it seems to be an outline of the object. The problem is that this is where the two halves of the FD bolt together???? Was the object stuck between two halves of the FD??? The last two pics are of defects in the two halves of the FD where they touch and bolt together. Looks like corrosion to me but not sure. So I'm hoping someone can tell me what I'm looking at. Right now I'm confused.

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post #2 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 6:00 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

There are no pics with your message. Try again........

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post #3 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 8:28 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler50
There are no pics with your message. Try again........

Well he did state he was confused...............

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post #4 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 9:53 am Thread Starter
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Ok, we will try it again. (It was the computers fault!!) The computer is confused too!!
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Michael L. Lempenau
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Last edited by mlempenau; Nov 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am.
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post #5 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 10:22 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Michael..
That doesn't look good. I'm having difficulty visualizing what area you are taking picture of... and is this the only "damage" you found?

Remember, "too much " data/pictures are always good.

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post #6 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 4:53 pm
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlempenau
Ok, we will try it again. (It was the computers fault!!) The computer is confused too!!
Michael,
Can you post some pics of the crown wheel assembly? Pics from both ends, the big round ball bearing (crown wheel bearing) and the smaller tapered roller bearing?

What year is the bike this final drive is off?

From the pics you have posted: there is pitting on the mating surface of the final drive housing. I have not seen this before but this I don't consider critical; I do wonder how it got there.

The foreign object you show I don't recognise. It doesn't look like any part of a FD I am familiar with. It may really be a foreign object.

There is corrosion or something around the seat for the tapered roller bearing outer race in the FD housing. Not sure what is going on there. Can you clean it up a little more and take a couple more pics?

Trying to be helpful. You have something that is different that the classic crown wheel bearing failure. Some later bikes have had the tapered roller bearing spin on its shaft, so I wonder what that bearing and shaft look like.

From what I am seeing on the current pics I wouldn't dare comment on whether I thought the drive was worth rebuilding or not. But I think not.

Also, take a pic that shows the whole FD, I am having trouble getting oriented. I think I am looking at the drive upside down.

I am starting to think that the input shaft that the pinion gear rides on has invaded the space occupied by the tapered roller bearing.

What I have circled on your pic isn't right. It looks like the input shaft has busted through the housing and dumped a thrust bushing or something into the tapered roller bearing space.

Edit added: Yeah, that's it. Your input shaft has come loose somehow and punched its way through into the recess of the tapered roller bearing. The loose piece you found has the marks on one side from where the end of the input shaft was spinning on it. The other side was part of the wall of the tapered roller bearing recess. The input shaft has punched loose that piece of metal which subsequently got chewed up in the bearing or gears.
I don't know of anyone who has reported this kind of failure before.
You need a new drive.
Sorry.
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Last edited by CharlieVT; Nov 4th, 2008 at 5:22 pm.
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post #7 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 5:16 pm
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Question Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

That appears as though the pinion has moved, apparently the nut holding the pinion in place has come loose and allowed the pinion to move toward the rear and has actually worn enough to where it actually cut through the case. Hence the little circle with a wear pattern caused by the end of the pinion. Does not appear to by the typical large ball bearing failure. IMHO

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post #8 of 18 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 6:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

I ran out of time yesterday and did not get the bearing removed. I will work on this some more today. I agree this does not look like the normal FD failure. I will remove the bearing and clean up the FD and post a new set of pics. Thanks, Mike

Michael L. Lempenau
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post #9 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 5:57 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

I'm with CharlieVT on this one. It looks like the input shaft cratered and barfed into the FD housing. It looks like that unit might not be fit for repair. Or else it might take more to fix it than buy a new one. Yikes!..........

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post #10 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 6:14 am Thread Starter
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

If as is noted above the input shaft has come loose somehow and punched its way through into the recess of the tapered roller bearing, how???? Everything else looks to be in place like it should be. Could I have hit a very bad pot hole and made this happen? It looks to me like there is a metal sleve that has slipped into the tapered roller bearing cavity. I have been looking for some pics of a normal FD in this area and have not found one yet. Does some one have one so I can see what it should look like? I have looked at the bearings and don't believe anything has been damaged. Mike
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Michael L. Lempenau
85/41 Moo7, T.Nongjom, A.Sunsai
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post #11 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 7:30 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

I am making a guess here since I have never seen the inside of these drives with my own eyes. It looks to me that the component that is sticking into the taper roller bearing cavity is a steel (?) guide bushing that supports the end of the input shaft. The foreign object that got chewed up may have been an aluminum cap that was pressed in the end of this bushing to "hide" it?

BTW, the porosity on top of the machined flange is probably casting defects that were not cleaned up or machined off in manufacturing. Whoever accepted this in production probably did so because that surface is not a sealing surface, and therefore not important. I find it a little strange (but quite irrelevant to the subject of discussion) that in looking at the outside finish of the housing, I would say that it was die-cast aluminum, but from the pictures I am seeing textures that tells me that it is sand-cast aluminum!

PS: Michael - how long have you lived in Chiangmai? I have a piece of property there and may go back to live there sometimes in the future. Perhaps another 10 years or so. It is very unusual to see big bikes in Thailand isn't it!

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post #12 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 9:21 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler50
I'm with CharlieVT on this one. It looks like the input shaft cratered and barfed into the FD housing. It looks like that unit might not be fit for repair. Or else it might take more to fix it than buy a new one. Yikes!..........
Agree on the rebuild costs being prohibitive. You'd need to remove the input shaft and figure out what happened in there. Probably need new input shaft bearings, maybe shaft itself. The housing clearly needs to be replaced. Tapered roller bearing is now very suspect considering what it has been grinding on and should be replaced. That means you'll need to reshim for pinion gear to crown gear backlash, etc.....

I'd personally take the drive apart because I am a curious fellow, but I wouldn't consider rebuilding that drive. You need to get a new one or a decent used one. Sorry.
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post #13 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 11:00 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Charlie,

Is that the end of the shaft in the photo? I thought that it was a steel bushing at the first look.

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post #14 of 18 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 11:53 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlempenau
If as is noted above the input shaft has come loose somehow and punched its way through into the recess of the tapered roller bearing, how???? Everything else looks to be in place like it should be. Could I have hit a very bad pot hole and made this happen? It looks to me like there is a metal sleve that has slipped into the tapered roller bearing cavity. I have been looking for some pics of a normal FD in this area and have not found one yet. Does some one have one so I can see what it should look like? I have looked at the bearings and don't believe anything has been damaged. Mike
For the several FD I have opened, I have never removed the pinion gear (input shaft). Go to Max BMW online parts fische or similiar diagram to see what's in there.

There is a "needle sleeve", presumably a needle bearing that carries the aft end of the pinion gear shaft. That maybe what we are looking at.... or we are looking at the end of the pinion gear shaft itself. I think it is probably the "needle sleeve". YOU SHOULD not be seeing this. That end of the shaft is normally behind a cast part of the FD housing and the shaft has punched through it. Why did this happen? My bet is that the nut on the other end of the shaft (someone posted above this idea and I think they are correct) allowing the end of the shaft to bear on the housing. Riding did not cause this..... something came apart. That nut on the front of the pinion gear shaft should be fixed with locktite. If the nut came off, the shaft could bear on the blind end of its housing where the needle sleeve is and eventually wear through into the inside of the housing, which it did apparently.

Yes, the crown bearing looks okay but I'd really check it closely if you're thinking of using it again. I personally wouldn't use it again except in an emergency spare drive.

Very interesting failure, thanks for posting the pics.

Edit added: I don't have any still pic of drive internals but you can see FD innards in my video:
http://www.bmwlt.com/uploads/lt_final_drive_rebuild.wmv

Last edited by CharlieVT; Nov 5th, 2008 at 12:49 pm.
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post #15 of 18 Old Nov 24th, 2008, 9:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

I got a used RD from Dan Martin and installed it yesterday. Everything seems to be working ok. As I was cleaning up the work area I found what I believe is a needle from one of the needle bearings that hold the u-joints in place. My gut tells me I need to find the affected bearing and replace before too long. Is this a good assumption?

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post #16 of 18 Old Nov 24th, 2008, 10:41 pm
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlempenau
I got a used RD from Dan Martin and installed it yesterday. Everything seems to be working ok. As I was cleaning up the work area I found what I believe is a needle from one of the needle bearings that hold the u-joints in place. My gut tells me I need to find the affected bearing and replace before too long. Is this a good assumption?


Do you think there is any chance it came from the needle sleeve that was in the ruined drive? If so, no concern...if not...find the damaged one and replace.

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post #17 of 18 Old Nov 25th, 2008, 7:36 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlempenau
I got a used RD from Dan Martin and installed it yesterday. Everything seems to be working ok. As I was cleaning up the work area I found what I believe is a needle from one of the needle bearings that hold the u-joints in place. My gut tells me I need to find the affected bearing and replace before too long. Is this a good assumption?
Very likely a needle from the pivot bearings. There are a couple of different versions of these bearing, but in one type the needles are held in place with a plastic retainer and the needles are sort of held in place with the grease. Very easy to displace one of these.

IMO you can ride it, but expect the bearings to loosen up resulting in a loose final drive. So yeah, replace the bearings. Those needle bearings have a history of early wear anyway. Flattened needles and notching on the races seems to be a common finding. Some folks have noticed the final drive loose at these bearings and have just re-torqued the pivots. I would consider that a temporary fix only and would replace the bearings.

I think it is unlikely that you are looking at bearing parts from the imput shaft/pinion gear of your failed final drive unless you have disassembled that and spilled the parts, and I think you'd know you had done that.

HTH
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post #18 of 18 Old Nov 25th, 2008, 8:03 am
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Re: Final Drive Failure Pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlempenau
I got a used RD from Dan Martin and installed it yesterday. Everything seems to be working ok. As I was cleaning up the work area I found what I believe is a needle from one of the needle bearings that hold the u-joints in place. My gut tells me I need to find the affected bearing and replace before too long. Is this a good assumption?
Look at the size of the needle, and hopefully you will have some ideas as to where it came from! That might be from the needle bearing at the end of your old failed drive? If that is so, then you have nothing to worry about, but if it is from something that is on your bike right now, I would suggest that you find it and replace the bearing.

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Last edited by PadG; Nov 25th, 2008 at 8:16 am.
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