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post #1 of 32 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 12:11 pm Thread Starter
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Mystery Starting Problem

It has only happened 2 or 3 times, but a concern. Kill switch check, side stand up, clutch in, turn key and nothing. Scratch head. Turn key off, turn key back on and she starts fine.

AKA "Speedbump"
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post #2 of 32 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 12:24 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Next time scratch head first.
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post #3 of 32 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 12:43 pm
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Question Re: Mystery Starting Problem

At this point I would suspect the key switch...

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post #4 of 32 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 5:20 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMartin
Next time scratch head first.
Brilliant! I was going to say something like "it doesn't start when you turn the key, you have to push the button", but this is much better.

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post #5 of 32 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 8:06 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

On a looooong shot, check connection to + battery terminal?
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post #6 of 32 Old Nov 1st, 2008, 8:40 am Thread Starter
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Thanks for the replies, I guess the first thing I will do is make sure the battery connections are tight and then just wait and see if it happens again. I probably won't worry a lot about it until it leaves me stranded somewhere.

AKA "Speedbump"
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post #7 of 32 Old Nov 1st, 2008, 10:28 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

I agree on the battery connections. Wire brush the terminals and connectors first with a brass "tooth brush" to bare metal before re-tightening. Before the final snug wiggle them back and forth on the terminals to kind of "grind" them together.


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post #8 of 32 Old Nov 1st, 2008, 10:33 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Thought I'd add something useful.

Did you know that by simply moving the words around, this thread would sound right in any number of combinations?

Mystery Starting Problem (original)
Mystery Problem Starting
Problem Starting Mystery
Starting Problem Mystery
Starting Mystery Problem

I find that fascinating.

Sorry

I can't help with the problem. OK. Time to go do something useful.
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post #9 of 32 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 10:49 am
 
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Unhappy Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Agent86,
I had very similar problem with my 07 LT. It only got worse with time, finally stranding me twice far from home. The bike has been in the shop for a total of THREE months over four occasions. The problem is intermittent, the dealer can reproduce but not diagnose the problem. Relays for the starter, fuel pump and reverse switch have been replaced but problem still exists.
When the key is turned on, everything works but no response when the starter button is pushed. If you are in a quiet place you can hear the fuel pump come to life. In my case, if the fuel pump responded the bike would start....if I didn't hear the fuel pump switch on...no start. Sometimes if the key was switched on and off multiple times it would work, sometimes if the key was just left on, you could hear the pump respond after anywhere from 30 sec to 5 minutes, and then it would start. Sometimes it just didn't start.
In my case, I was saved by our states lemon law.
Good luck.
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post #10 of 32 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 10:57 am
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Smile Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKMiller
I agree on the battery connections. Wire brush the terminals and connectors first with a brass "tooth brush" to bare metal before re-tightening. Before the final snug wiggle them back and forth on the terminals to kind of "grind" them together.
jm2cw
Also helps to coat the terminal with vaseline or dielectric just to prevent corrosion and hence bad electrical connection over time.

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post #11 of 32 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 11:22 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

My experience when the battery gets weak it may not turn the first time.
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post #12 of 32 Old Nov 4th, 2008, 12:53 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCrider
Thought I'd add something useful.

Did you know that by simply moving the words around, this thread would sound right in any number of combinations?

Mystery Starting Problem (original)
Mystery Problem Starting
Problem Starting Mystery
Starting Problem Mystery
Starting Mystery Problem

I find that fascinating.

Sorry
Problem Mystery Starting

Gilles & Kathy
BMWMOA# 154719
IBA# 71594
2011 Ostra Gray RT
06 Mercedes-Benz E350 Estate (parts and people hauler)
2012 BMW X3 (parts and people hauler)
86 Porsche 911 Cabriolet (my "new" baby)



For her I climbed the highest mountain!
For her I swam across the deepest ocean!
For her I walked through the largest desert!
And then she left me... She said I was never home!!!


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post #13 of 32 Old Dec 19th, 2012, 8:03 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Wondering if there was ever any resolution to this. My 2002 with 37k miles is doing something very similar, occasionally.
Battery is kept on a trickle charger

Turn key on
Turn kill switch to on
Hit starter button
When this does happen, I get nothing
I usually flip the kill switch back and forth, and/or put it in and back out of gear, then try again. It usually never takes more than 3-4 tries before it cranks, and it never happens again the same day. Only happens on the first start of the day
Happens randomly maybe once every 10 starts or so

So guys, any ideas?
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post #14 of 32 Old Dec 20th, 2012, 11:42 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

I would try turning the key on last if you use the kill switch to shut her off. I never use the kill switch unless I drop the old girl. Either side stand or key to kill her.

John
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post #15 of 32 Old Dec 20th, 2012, 12:00 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

I had the same problem with my 03, first start of the day would be hit and miss whether it started or not. I started checking my battery voltage before attempting to start it each day and found that when the battery had 12.3 volts she would start right up and when the battery is at 12.1 it wouldn’t. A new battery solved the problem.
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post #16 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 7:09 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Hi All,

I have EXACTLY the same problem - difference being that this has progressed from an occassional 'blip' to a regular occurence and yesterday left me stranded at the roadside for 4 hrs!!! Rather annoyingly (or not!) five mins before the recovery truck arrived, the bike started!!!!

So - what happens with my bike is that the fuel pump does NOT fire up with the ignition... much wiggling of key in ignition, on and off with kill switch, side stand in and out a million times, into gear rock back and forth, out of gear, spraying water dispersant (WD40) everywhere I can and for no apparent reason... the fuel pump primes up - bike starts.... This has been a problem with growing regularity ever since I had the clutch replaced in the Spring...

Yesterday after doing all that and even taking the side stand switch off to inspect and spray with WD40 the bike would NOT start... nearly two hours of tinkering to try to get it to fire up and I gave up and called recovery - nearly another 2 hrs of standing there swearing and cursing at it - and I tried just one more time... and it started... nothing had been touched - just turn the key and it started....

What on Earth is 'isolating' my fuel pump and immobilising the bike???? (by the way - new fuel pump and load relief relay fitted in the Spring too after the bike stranded my nearly 1000 miles away from home with the same issue)

Please - guys - your infinite wisdom in all things LT is desperately required... my unshakeable faith in BMW as a brand and in my LT has taken a serious knock... to the point where I just want to take my LT down a quiet lane and torch it right now!!!!
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post #17 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 9:48 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Andy,

Given your description the one thing I would suspect is the "Engine-electronics" relay (motronics relay #7 in the picture). If that relay is getting flakey it would cause just that problem. It is activated by the key so it makes and breaks with a key turn and if the contacts are corroded or pitted then it may not provide the juice to the motronic. It is the motronic that, in turn, drives the fuel pump and the starter signal. That could explain the works/ doesn't work issue without touching anything but the key.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #18 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:01 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler
Andy,

Given your description the one thing I would suspect is the "Engine-electronics" relay (motronics relay #7 in the picture). If that relay is getting flakey it would cause just that problem. It is activated by the key so it makes and breaks with a key turn and if the contacts are corroded or pitted then it may not provide the juice to the motronic. It is the motronic that, in turn, drives the fuel pump and the starter signal. That could explain the works/ doesn't work issue without touching anything but the key.
Doesn't the LT, at last later years, have a voltage sensing relay that won't let the starter engage if the voltage is too low? Seems like a battery on the edge might cause intermittent starts if the battery voltage is right at the sense threshold.

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post #19 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:12 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

John, as ever your knowledge on the bike astounds me!!! Your diagnosis sounds spot on so will give that a try... The relay is cheap enough to replace just a bit of a pain to get at. For info, battery is a new gel battery, I have monitored charging input when the bike is running and all is correct, there is plenty of voltage for cranking. With the ignition on, everything fires up as it should EXCEPT you can't hear the fuel pump priming... So I reckon John has sussed it! Will change the relay and let you know!! Thanks again!
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post #20 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:38 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

John, just to be clear... The bike still cranks over and all electrics (except the ongoing clock and gear indicator problem!!!!) work fine... Does that still point to the motronic relay??
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post #21 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 3:47 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

If that is the case then I would suspect the fuel pump relay #4. This relay provides switched power to feed the fuel pump and the injectors (the motronic grounds the injectors to fire them).

The motronic relay would prevent cranking.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 32 Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 4:44 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Hmmm ok... Replaced fuel pump relay with a new one a few months ago... What would cause it to fail so quickly???
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post #23 of 32 Old Dec 23rd, 2012, 1:38 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

...as a thought - would any of the issue I am having come up on the GS-911 diagnostic computer???

The bike is currently off road - I dont trust it not to dump me in the middle of nowhere so until I work out what is going on I won't ride it...

I will strip off the bodywork and fuel tank to expose the relay box etc - John - I have pictures of the wiring on my bike behind the relays - as I mentioned in earlier PM's with you about the gear indicator and clock problem I have, there is some 'rogue' wiring in there where an alarm system has been removed... I am more and more convinced something is not right there... would it help if I sent you the pictures?? Or post them up here???
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post #24 of 32 Old Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:17 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

If you have a meter I would check the power feed to the fuel pump. Your relay could be good but the commutator on the pump motor could be going. May just be the pump. Don't think the GS-911 would help here unless one of the real time values would give a clue.


On the pics you can just post here in a new post and I'll take a look.

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2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #25 of 32 Old Jan 14th, 2013, 8:45 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

I revived this thread last month.........
Finally got time to spend tracking down the problem. First place I checked was the battery terminals and connections. Had some corrosion and loose connections. Removed all connections , wire brushed the terminals, installed new screws and nuts into the terminals, reconnected everything and haven't had the starting issue since.

Lesson is, Don't overlook the most simple explanation.

Thanks guys
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post #26 of 32 Old Jan 15th, 2013, 9:09 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmehal
I revived this thread last month.........
Finally got time to spend tracking down the problem. First place I checked was the battery terminals and connections. Had some corrosion and loose connections. Removed all connections , wire brushed the terminals, installed new screws and nuts into the terminals, reconnected everything and haven't had the starting issue since.

Lesson is, Don't overlook the most simple explanation.

Thanks guys
Well then, you can thank Bob (BecketMa) since he figured it out first. He's a pretty darned smart fella.

Whenever I have problems like this I always remember that saying "If you hear hoof beats don't start looking for zebras."

As Hilton mentioned be sure to put on a very light coating of grease. Use it on the sides of the posts and interior of the terminals to prevent this from happening again. No need to slather it on top since all it will do is attract dirt. For what it's worth I would not use vaseline or regular grease since they are petroleum based and can attack rubber and plastic over time. Di-electric grease is silicone based and inert. One small tube will last a lifetime.

You may also want to inspect the positive cable for internal corrosion. I would especially suspect this on andyfb's bike since he lives in a high humidity climate.

The copper strands will often be eroded to the point where they have sporadic conductivity. If you see any green corrosion where the cable joins the terminal you most likely have an issue. Splicing fresh cable 6 inches back from the terminal with a soldered crimp on lug connector and new terminal will do the trick without having to replace the entire cable. "Marine" quality heat shrink tubing - the kind with glue on the inside - makes for a very neat and non-conductive jacket over the new splice to prevent shorts.

The best repair - of course - would be to replace the entire cable.


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Last edited by RonKMiller; Jan 15th, 2013 at 9:25 am.
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post #27 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 12:03 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Hi guys,

Need a a little help please. I have an 07 LT. Bought this year, last ride three weeks ago. Bike on maintainer all the time in garage. So I went to start her and the starter would engage and turn bike over maybe twice and stop. Try again same thing keep trying until she cranks a little more and she fires up and off I go. Ride two hours stop for coffee, EHCS won't go up just a flashing light on dash. Have coffee go through same starting routine. Almost feels like engine trying to stop its self by wrong timing. Get her going, ride back two hours back into garage and EHCS works fine. Today went to take her outside to wash down for winter storage. Same problem starting get her going take outside wash and clean went to bring it back in won't start at all push it in garage EHCS won't work just flashing dash light. Put it on maintainer again. Had supper, Try again four attempts she fires up but EHCS won't work. Got SO to help pull it up on Center stand manually. Where do I start to look ??? Dealer told me he replaced the battery in May when I picked it up. Until now no problems. Thank you

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post #28 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 1:54 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

EHCS operation can be affected by faulty brake light globes.. make sure they are working OK.

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post #29 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 5:08 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chayside
Hi guys,

Need a a little help please. I have an 07 LT. Bought this year, last ride three weeks ago. Bike on maintainer all the time in garage. So I went to start her and the starter would engage and turn bike over maybe twice and stop. Try again same thing keep trying until she cranks a little more and she fires up and off I go. Ride two hours stop for coffee, EHCS won't go up just a flashing light on dash. Have coffee go through same starting routine. Almost feels like engine trying to stop its self by wrong timing. Get her going, ride back two hours back into garage and EHCS works fine. Today went to take her outside to wash down for winter storage. Same problem starting get her going take outside wash and clean went to bring it back in won't start at all push it in garage EHCS won't work just flashing dash light. Put it on maintainer again. Had supper, Try again four attempts she fires up but EHCS won't work. Got SO to help pull it up on Center stand manually. Where do I start to look ??? Dealer told me he replaced the battery in May when I picked it up. Until now no problems. Thank you
Dealer story notwithstanding, I would replace the battery.

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1976 Kawasaki KH400
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post #30 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 10:15 am
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Pull the battery and have a local auto parts house load test it. Do you only deploy the EHCS with the engine running? It does draw a good load, also if there was a lightening bolt symbol on the LCD dash when it would not deploy that indicates a low battery.

John
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #31 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 1:16 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Checked bulbs all OK, I deploy EHCS normally with engine running. no lightning bolt symbol displayed. Left bike on side stand today. Will pull battery and have it checked. Thank you all for your help. Will let you know what I find.

Richard

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post #32 of 32 Old Oct 14th, 2013, 1:47 pm
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Re: Mystery Starting Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cws
EHCS operation can be affected by faulty brake light globes.. make sure they are working OK.
I experienced that when I installed a TailBlazer, which I had used successfully in my '01 and '04 LT's. Was surprised when the '05 EHCS failed to deploy and I confirmed it was the TailBlazer. The odd part is that it is not ALL '05's that are affected.

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