High idle, lower mpg after HID install - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 16 Old Oct 30th, 2008, 1:09 pm Thread Starter
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High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Hi guys and gals, hoping you can straighten me out.
Performed a hi and lowbeam HID install (will post about details separately). Had to remove the battery, ran into many problems (many self-caused), took me over two weeks and forty hours...oh well, HID works perfectly but...

Bike would not start easily at first. Idle is also high, still between 1,000 and 1500. I then read about the Motronic reset, have done that several times. Now the idle is down a bit, to about 1100 to 1200 with random bursts up to 1500. Gas mileage is also lower, used to get 42 riding mostly highway at about 75mph, now getting below 40mpg. Plenty of miles since HID project.

During the HID project I had both upper fairings off, the nose cone, and also some of the side panels around the battery area (ask me why). Bike was on the centerstand. Had to run wires from the HID relay to the battery, used zipties to secure the power wires along the right side of the bike. Dont remember zipping anything very tightly, but you never know.

Oh, did I forget to mention that I am an idiot, and that when I was "taking the battery out" (a euphimism) I did manage to get sparks around the positive terminal...(then I got smarter and removed the ground wire first)

This is a 2002 LTE with 12,500 miles. Oil level is good. Using premium fuel. Prior to the HID project bike would start on 2nd push of starter button, but then would lock into idle just below 1000 rpm with mileage at 42mpg. (OK I did take a long trip over the summer, fully loaded got about 40mpg over about 4000 miles, will post about the trip separately also).

Just reading a previous post from Grifscoot, he said this"If it's not the canister, which I don't suspect at this time, I'll bet you pinched the vacuum hoses on the right side leading to the vent and the canister when installing said panel."

So I am wondering if I pinched this hose (does it run along the frame past the battery?), or if I managed to short something out when getting sparks at the positive battery terminal. I managed to get the security system to howl at me, but I am getting no warning lights at the dashboard. Performance of the bike seems good, there may be a slight change in the pitch of the engine, but that may also be my imagination.

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that for the first time ever I got some black soot collecting at the tailpipe (since the HID project). I cleaned the tailpipe off and am checking to see if it comes back, so far doesn't look bad after about 150 miles since cleaning it. No real smoke issues at startup, and the exhaust doesn't smell bad.

I know the Motronic can take time to get things back to perfect, and I know that a weak battery can wreak havoc. I have no reason to suspect the battery (BMW exide, don't know if it is original)-having said that, after the HID project I did have to jumpstart the LT. I have not noticed any other potentially battery-related issues, and have not had to jumpstart since.

I tend to ride relatively long distances, usually 35+ miles per trip, mostly highway commuting.

Let me know if I forgot anything.

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #2 of 16 Old Oct 30th, 2008, 2:29 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Did you reconnect the temperature sensor? If you removed the nose fairing you would have needed to disconnect the temperature sensor and remove the "parking light".


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post #3 of 16 Old Oct 30th, 2008, 3:24 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwd98056
Did you reconnect the temperature sensor? If you removed the nose fairing you would have needed to disconnect the temperature sensor and remove the "parking light".
That one does not feed the motronic, just BC.

I would undo the negative leads and let it sit for several hours. Then re-connect and perform the TPS rest drill - key on - no start open /close / open /close throttle, key off then key on and start. Also to eliminate a pinched vent hose just loosen the gas cap to see if that makes a difference.

Black soot will always form as the mixture is full rich during initial start up. If you are collecting more than normal you could have an O2 sensor on it's way out.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
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post #4 of 16 Old Oct 30th, 2008, 3:43 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

The motronic should reset after a while but I noticed that you did not mention that before starting that you did the following:
1. Turn the key on but do not start the bike.
2. Fully twist the throttle open and closed two times.
3. Then start the bike.

This may or may not be your problem but is a step that should have been completed.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT - Sold December 2019
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #5 of 16 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 9:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Update: I did the Motronic reset, twice over a two day period. Bike still does not start the same way, will stall unless I turn ignition on, twist throttle all the way, then press the starter button. Then the bike will idle at about 1100-1200, but always creeps up to about 1500 when coming to a stop (at a stop light, for example, after bike is warm).

Also, I can confirm that the mileage (MPG) is down to about 37 after being at or around 42-44 for the first 8000 miles I have owned the bike. No changes to temperature gauge, no changes in fuel type used, riding conditions, distances, road type etc.

I am going to remove the right side upper fairing to see if I pinched a hose while installing the HID power wires to the battery. Other than that, I am at a loss as to what to even look for. As I said above, not getting any warning lights at the dash, everything electrical seems to work ok, so I don't suspect any blown fuses. Also, power is ok, but the engine sounds "tinny" compared to prior to the HID project. Could I have accidentally blocked the air intake, causing the fuel mixture to be rich?

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #6 of 16 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 9:40 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

I'd be impressed if you blocked the intake. It would take a good sized bird to do that.

Sounds like you might have moved the throttle cable enough to pull it slightly open at idle.

Tim Barstow

2004 GSA Silver
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post #7 of 16 Old Oct 31st, 2008, 10:28 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Check the 4 vacuum hoses at the throttle body. You most likely knocked one loose. If one or more is lose or off it could cause all the problems you described.
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post #8 of 16 Old Nov 1st, 2008, 7:51 am
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

I forgot to mention in my original reply, but a weak battery will cause the idle to rise. I think that once the voltage goes below a certain voltage, the idle will increase to charge the battery. You should notice this a lot if you use the reverse function. I could be wrong, but when you use reverse the engine speed increases. I do not know if this is because the battery voltage is low, or something built into the system when the reverse is activated. Someone help me on this one.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT - Sold December 2019
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #9 of 16 Old Nov 1st, 2008, 8:13 am
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino
I forgot to mention in my original reply, but a weak battery will cause the idle to rise. I think that once the voltage goes below a certain voltage, the idle will increase to charge the battery. You should notice this a lot if you use the reverse function. I could be wrong, but when you use reverse the engine speed increases. I do not know if this is because the battery voltage is low, or something built into the system when the reverse is activated. Someone help me on this one.

I remember reading somewhere that if the bike senses a low battery, it will raise the idle rpm to 1200. During reverse operation, the idle speed should raise to 1500 rpm.

My LT is acting similarly in the idle department. I'm not having any issues with it starting, it does that just fine. But what I'm having issues with is it running/running smoothly after I fill it up with fuel. My issues stemmed from a possible screw up when I had the vent lines off during a tank removal. All that was posted earlier, so I won't go back into that. Suffice to say, I straightened out the fuel vent situation, but I'm still having a crap load of trouble out of the bike. For the first 50 miles after filling up (and NOT packing the tank, either) the bike will stall even when pulling the clutch in to downshift. At a stop sign or light, I have to keep the throttle twisted open just to keep it running, and it won't do so until it's up around 2500 rpm. It is a real pain! But, through the advice and encouragement from this board, I'm off to the garage to do a cannisterectomy on it and see if that fixed my problem. I'll also see if I can find the problem with the cruise while I'm in there.

I know how frustrating this is for you. It's hard when you have a bike that has always run great (72K when I dorked mine up) and then some "minor" work on my part has farged it all up. But, with the help of the good people on this board, and a little patience (I'm in short supply on that; hence the reason for MOST of my mechanical problems), I know that you'll find the problem too.

FWIW, I think you and I both are suffering from vacuum hose maladies. It sure would explain the erratic idle and hard starting. Good luck to us both!
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post #10 of 16 Old Nov 3rd, 2008, 8:38 pm Thread Starter
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Update:

I have removed the right side upper fairing in order to look at the work I did, and specifically where I put the zipties. I was concerned that I may have pinched one of the vacuum or vent hoses. On the right side are two tubes which are, I believe, 1)the overflow/spill drain tube (from the spill cup around the gas cap) and 2)the vent tube which goes to the cannister. Is the cannister in the rear of the cycle? Because this tube is the one that goes past the battery.

As it turns out, I had not pinched either of those tubes, I checked my zipties and they were not even "snug" just tight enough to keep the HID wires going to the battery from flapping around. I have not removed the left side upper fairing, where the throttle body is (I believe) as I did not do any work on that side. (I had only removed the left side upper fairing in preparation for removing the nose cone, all wiring was routed along the right side).

Then I had another thought: was the power drain from the HID units causing this idle/mpg issue? So I disconnected the fuses feeding the HID lights and started the engine. No change.

Currently, I have disconnected the ground to the battery, will try again tomorrow to reset the Moronic unit. If it is the Moronic unit "resetting" will I see my mpg's rise gradually back to the level I have come to expect? And will the idle also gradually decrease back to its normal level? Or will these changes occur suddenly as the Moronic unit snaps back into shape?

Is it actually possible that a weak battery could cause both the idle variation (which again, is typically 1200-1500, although it will go up to 1800 on occasion, and it will stay at 1100 for 30 seconds or so before escalating again)?

Also, what are the consequences of "'overfilling" the tank? Does the cannister get "full" causing pressure in the fuel system? (I am getting no "vacuum" or pressure release when I open the gas cap).

Thanks again, I am running out of options to try to resolve this!

Pictures attached showing right side behing upper fairing where I routed the HID wires to the battery. Shows the two tubes described above as well as the routing of the HID battery wires along the tip over frame.
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Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #11 of 16 Old Nov 3rd, 2008, 9:18 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Looks like you have things laid out fine. The HID pulls higher amperage than the Halogen only during "startup" of the bulb. After that it drops way off.

On a wild guess you may have induced some kind of "noise" depending upon where you routed the Kit wires... if those are properly secured, shouldn't be the problem.

On the other hand... if the battery is weak or some corrosion is there blocking a good power feed, it could appear to be a "battery" problem...

So, when the bike is running, check the voltage at the battery terminals... is it fluctuating? you may see some due to the RPM shift.. but should be around 12.8 VDC or higher. If you see significant drop you have a marginal battery, poor grounding or power connections.

Hope this helps... One quick check is to take the battery out of a "good" bike and install in yours for a test..

If you've had a couple years on the battery, I'd recommend changing as the winter may nab it anyway.

...............
J.M.J...
Dcn Channing

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post #12 of 16 Old Nov 5th, 2008, 9:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Udate:

Removed negative cable to battery, left overnight. Reconnected negative cable, performed Motronic reset procedure. At first, I thought the idle had corrected itself, started right up and settled in at about 1050rpms. However, after rideing approx 40 miles at highway speeds, idle was back to 1200 with occasional surges to 1500-1800!

Also, the use of reverse does increase the idle speed while I am holding down the starter button, I gather this is normal.

Also performed an oil and filter change while I had the battery disconnected. She likes fresh oil! Performance is still fine, there does seem to be some benefit to having let the Motronic discharge overnight, but the damned idle is still high. Too soon to know if the mpg's are back to where they were before I did the HID project, but at this point I do not suspect that work (the HID install) since my last troubleshooting procedure (removing fuses to the HID relay/starting bike with no lights) did not solve the idle issue.

At this point I am going to see if the mpg's are any better than after the last tank and see if the Motronic will bring the idle back down over time.

Any last suggestions?

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #13 of 16 Old Nov 10th, 2008, 3:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Update:

I took off the left side upper fairing to look at the throttle bodies. They seem to be well hidden underneath the gas tank. I cannot even see the tubes on the top of the throttle bodies.

Since I only took off the left side fairing to get the nose cone off to perform the HID install, I do not suspect that I knocked one of the small tubes off of a throttle body.

Is there any chance that I may have pinched a throttle cable, and that is keeping the idle high? Unfortunately, I don't really suspect that either since the idle still surges from about 1200 to about 1800rpms. Also the feel of the throttle grip has not changed.

Does anyone think I may have blown a fuse that I don't know about? I don't really suspect that either, since I have not noticed any other electrical type failures.

I now have hundreds of miles on the clock since the HID upgrade, plenty of time for the Motronic to have reset the idle, yet it still runs high.

Now the bike starts fine, settles in at about 1200rpms. But after I have ridden any distance and come to a stop, the idle will vary in the range stated above.

Peter

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #14 of 16 Old Nov 10th, 2008, 4:27 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

With my very limited experience in this matter and a great deal of stress and sweat equity....our new to us 99LT purchased last Nov. had a problem with the RPM's going anywhere from 1200 to as high as nearly 4k at stop lights when we got it out this Spring.

It had nothing to do with much of anything that I can relate the problem being caused by, nor did it do it when we got it. We were told it might be the Idle Actuator for $425. Not really having more money to play with this, we were given the suggestion by a well informed gent to try and use Sea Foam.

I took most of the bike apart, installed an HID kit, an Autoswitch and some other items, changed a fuel line, filters, moved some wires, and installed a new battery, the last one having been used for just over a year.

After having this tested on the BMW computer system more than a few times showing nothing, taken the bike apart and changed filters etc., I ran six cans of this through the bike, ran at highway speeds for five or so hours, and thankfully have not had any problems with the idle since.

We did have a stalling issue that started once the temps dropped. I did the Motronic reset, didn't help. That was about six weeks ago I would guess, and fortunately, it has been running really well since. I hope that is the end of it.

I also found after my second oil, trans and FD fluid changes, the bike is running much smoother as well.

Not sure if that will solve your problem, but after a few thousand miles, lots of time and effort, it seems to have solved our problem.
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post #15 of 16 Old Nov 21st, 2008, 11:25 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

RESOLUTION:

Living in New England, with winter coming on, I decided to bring it to the dealer to get this problem resolved. Since I am at just over 12k miles (on a 2002, of which I put on about 8k this year!) I decided to spring for the Motronic test (which I think is called the GS-911). My local dealer (Second Wind BMW, Merrimack NH ) quoted me a price of about $50 to perform the test.

So, despite the sub 40 degree weather, I rode it in on Tuesday for the test. Well, to my surprise, it did report a fault, with the throttle potentiometer (I still have no idea what that actually does!). The dealer said they could resolve it with another hour of labor, so I said what the hell. Anyway, we are back to perfection with this "simple" adjustment (I peeked in and saw that the gas tank was off, both upper fairings, and God know what else).

Although it took well over 2.5 hours, the dealer charged me only for 1.5 hours and gave me a 20% "winter discount" for a total dent to my wallet of just over $100. They didn't even "razz" me when I told them I do most of the work myself (including the HID upgrade). They also told me that it was unlikely that I had caused the failure with my HID effort. I am still skeptical, since my mileage dropped from about 44mpg to 39mpg (actual, not BC) and the idle started acting up exactly at the time of the HID upgrade.

So, I still think I probably caused it (presumably by not being careful with the battery as I removed it, causing sparks at the positive terminal). However, as the master tech explained it to me, the throttle potentiometer seems to be a mechanical device, not an electronic one.

The other thing I learned is that I am very perceptive about the performance of my beauty aka "Dragonfly". I knew instantly that something was amiss, even though the performance did not seem to suffer. I was sure that the tone of the engine had changed, and now that it is back to perfect, I know I was right!

Can anyone explain this component (throttle potentiometer) to me?
And I still have yet to learn the hazards of overfilling the tank, and presumably fouling the "cannister".

Peter
2002 K1200LTE (July 4, 2008)-"Dragonfly"
1984 Goldwing Aspencade-"The Mighty Pickle" (think of Arlo Guthrie)
1982 Yamaha Maxim 750-"Little Pickle" (sometimes "Gherkin")
1980 Honda 750 Four-utilitarian, classic
1978 Honda 450 Four-took it apart, couldn't put it back together...
1976 Suzuki GT 250-2 stroke screamer
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post #16 of 16 Old Nov 22nd, 2008, 1:30 pm
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Re: High idle, lower mpg after HID install

Quote:
Originally Posted by pburhoe
Can anyone explain this component (throttle potentiometer) to me?
And I still have yet to learn the hazards of overfilling the tank, and presumably fouling the "cannister".
Throttle Potentiometer: A potentiometer is similar to a rheostat. Think 'twist to make louder' volume control on a radio--that is a potentiometer. On an engine, it can send signal to computer/motronic to tell how much you have twisted the throttle on/off. Computer can then make adjustments to other systems as it thinks is needed.

Overfilling tank: I did once, only slightly over filled....bike was *very* hard to start, as if you had no fuel at all. I guess I got lucky that it eventually started after 5-10 tries.

...Bob
2001 K1200LT der LadungsTräger
1978 GL1000
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