So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 48 Old Oct 16th, 2008, 10:53 pm Thread Starter
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So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

GET OVER IT! ... Find a parking lot and practice.

How does one keep a beast like the LT upright during low speed tight maneuvers? Brake, gas, clutch, and steering. Simple as that.

After a couple months and 5000 miles with my LT.. I can finally do lock-to-lock figure 8's on my bike without my putting my feet down or tipping.

Of course, I'm not advocating slipping the clutch for any length of time, but by keeping a balance of power, rear brake applied and forward momentum thru slipping the clutch I can easily go lock-to-lock making tight turns on my LT.... When I feel like I'm going to lose it...I goose it a little and regain control.

If nothing else.. I have more confidence in low speed maneuvering in traffic and intersections one and 2 up.

Asleepless
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post #2 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 2:16 am
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asleeplessknight
... Find a parking lot and practice.
That's all that you really needed to say. Every day when I would come home with my LT, I would intentially pass by my driveway so I could practice a U-Turn on my road. 18' to 20' U-Turns with the LT are easily doable if one is in good riding shape and/or form. And that only comes with practice.
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post #3 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 6:35 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asleeplessknight
GET OVER IT! ... Find a parking lot and practice.

How does one keep a beast like the LT upright during low speed tight maneuvers? Brake, gas, clutch, and steering. Simple as that.

After a couple months and 5000 miles with my LT.. I can finally do lock-to-lock figure 8's on my bike without my putting my feet down or tipping.

Of course, I'm not advocating slipping the clutch for any length of time, but by keeping a balance of power, rear brake applied and forward momentum thru slipping the clutch I can easily go lock-to-lock making tight turns on my LT.... When I feel like I'm going to lose it...I goose it a little and regain control.

If nothing else.. I have more confidence in low speed maneuvering in traffic and intersections one and 2 up.
Impressive. I need to work on that more.

Greg
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post #4 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 6:43 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asleeplessknight
GET OVER IT! ... Find a parking lot and practice.

How does one keep a beast like the LT upright during low speed tight maneuvers? Brake, gas, clutch, and steering. Simple as that.

After a couple months and 5000 miles with my LT.. I can finally do lock-to-lock figure 8's on my bike without my putting my feet down or tipping.

Of course, I'm not advocating slipping the clutch for any length of time, but by keeping a balance of power, rear brake applied and forward momentum thru slipping the clutch I can easily go lock-to-lock making tight turns on my LT.... When I feel like I'm going to lose it...I goose it a little and regain control.

If nothing else.. I have more confidence in low speed maneuvering in traffic and intersections one and 2 up.
Stupid question and I have lots of them.....

Did BMW remove the "Linked" brakes on the 05 and newer model? On my 02 there is no way to apply "Rear Only" brakes. I believe I have read some posts about below xxx MPH the linked feature was less active. On mine fron dead the linked feature is full active and will give you impressive pucker power when applied at slow speeds in turns.

Roy

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post #5 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 7:40 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Don't look down.
Keep your head up.
Look at where you're going, even if it's back over your shoulder (like when doing a U-turn).
Keep the RPM's above 3000.
Light pressure on the rear brake (Glad my '01's not linked)
Feather the clutch.

Doing that, the LT can do a 360 degree turn within a 20 foot diameter circle.
It does take practice.

Find a large empty parking lot with light poles.
Practice doing circles around the light poles.
It gives you a point to reference.
Practice making the circles smaller and smaller.
Speed isn't important; it's control.
Practice circles in both directions, not just your strong side.

Use the parking spaces and practice your U-turns.
Start with what you're comfortable with (3 spaces?)
Then start decreasing the width of the turn.
The lines will give you a reference point to see how you're doing.
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post #6 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 7:54 am
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear
Stupid question and I have lots of them.....

Did BMW remove the "Linked" brakes on the 05 and newer model? On my 02 there is no way to apply "Rear Only" brakes. I believe I have read some posts about below xxx MPH the linked feature was less active. On mine fron dead the linked feature is full active and will give you impressive pucker power when applied at slow speeds in turns.

Roy
None of the BMW models since '99 have had truly "Linked" brakes. They are actually "Integral Brakes" which is a whole different ballgame. In short, what that means is that the computer decides where to apply the brakes and how much. In low-speed conditions (under 10mph), the LT's braking system applies VERY little, if any, front brakes when the rear brake pedal is used alone. Many have argued this point. I have proved it with LT's up on their centerstand. Don't make me come over to IL and prove it to you!

Learning to apply just the rear brakes, meanwhile mastering the combination of throttle-control and clutch-slippage is the key to nearly effortless low-speed handling of the 850+ pound K1200LT.
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post #7 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 8:54 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

After having my bike for a few days, I went to my local Home Depot and found a vacant area of the parking lot and did all sorts of low speed maneuvers.

Just the right amount of clutch slipping/brake pressure/throttle rotation can get you through just about anything!

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Thinking logically, we see professional athletes playing their sport every day and still EVERY DAY they attend practice. Why??? They're already good at what they do! They've already received their contracts worth millions!

If they don't practice, they lose their skills and do not get better and soon they'll be out of a job... This should be no different for us MC riders!!!

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post #8 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 9:06 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
None of the BMW models since '99 have had truly "Linked" brakes. They are actually "Integral Brakes" which is a whole different ballgame. In short, what that means is that the computer decides where to apply the brakes and how much. In low-speed conditions (under 10mph), the LT's braking system applies VERY little, if any, front brakes when the rear brake pedal is used alone. Many have argued this point. I have proved it with LT's up on their centerstand. Don't make me come over to IL and prove it to you!
Joe, what is the method for "proving" this with the bike on the center stand. Please enlighten me so I can "prove" it to myself.

Jamie
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post #9 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 9:21 am
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

The LT is heavy but its not that hard to move her around took the riders course with it and did all maneuvers just fine.

Vano
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post #10 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 10:07 am Thread Starter
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

+1 LT_Pilot says it very succinctly.
Quote:
Keep the RPM's above 3000.
Good point here. Keeping the rpms up helps keep the beast more stable at low speeds (gyro affect).

Asleepless
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post #11 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 10:08 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LT_Pilot
Find a large empty parking lot with light poles.
Practice doing circles around the light poles.
It gives you a point to reference.
Practice making the circles smaller and smaller.
Speed isn't important; it's control.
Well, not crazy about that idea. If something does go wrong, you now fall into a light pole. (OUCH!)

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post #12 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 10:27 am
 
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Testing the LT's "Integral Braking System"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikebum
Joe, what is the method for "proving" this with the bike on the center stand. Please enlighten me so I can "prove" it to myself.
Here's what I did:
  • Take the LT for a short ride, as to fully engage the ABS/Integral Braking system.
  • Pull the LT into your garage, do NOT shut off the bike and put it up on it's centerstand.
  • With the LT running, put the LT in gear and get the rear tire spinning. Pull in the clutch. With the slightest pressure to either the front level or rear lever, the rear brake will stop instantly. This test displays that, at any speed, the rear brake is engaged at some level per the LT's computer.
  • Now, with the bike still running ... you need to get the front tire up off the floor. (My handy assistant helped me ... aka 'the wife'. She just pushed down on the top trunk rack and held the rear tire to the floor with the front tire up in the air.)
  • Spin the front tire as hard as you can. With the slightest pressure to the front brake lever, the front tire will stop instantly. Now spin the front tire again, but this time apply pressure to the rear brake lever. You will notice that it requires quite a bit of pressure to get the front tire stopped. It is this calculation that aids in low-speed maneuvers by the LT's computer.
Try it, and report back. I did this test on 3 different LTs (pre'05, and post'04 models), all yielding the same results.

HTH
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post #13 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 10:29 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
None of the BMW models since '99 have had truly "Linked" brakes. They are actually "Integral Brakes" which is a whole different ballgame. In short, what that means is that the computer decides where to apply the brakes and how much. In low-speed conditions (under 10mph), the LT's braking system applies VERY little, if any, front brakes when the rear brake pedal is used alone. Many have argued this point. I have proved it with LT's up on their centerstand. Don't make me come over to IL and prove it to you!
Come on over, I have tried using rear only on my bike at very slow speeds and the "FRONT" pads activate with a clunk. From reading other posts I suspect that the brain on the bike is as messed up as mine. My rear brakes have "NEVER" been smooth and predictable unless I apply the front brakes lightly first. Then I can modulate with the rear pedal but it is still operating the front also.

I presume bike on center stand test is: With bike in gear and below 10 MPH application of the front does "NOT" operate the rear. Is this correct?

Roy the Illinoyance

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post #14 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 10:31 am Thread Starter
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Re: Testing the LT's "Integral Braking System"

Damn! That Joe is a real fart smeller... I mean.. smart feller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Here's what I did:
  • Take the LT for a short ride, as to fully engage the ABS/Integral Braking system.
  • Pull the LT into your garage, do NOT shut off the bike and put it up on it's centerstand.
  • With the LT running, put the LT in gear and get the rear tire spinning. Pull in the clutch. With the slightest pressure to either the front level or rear lever, the rear brake will stop instantly. This test displays that, at any speed, the rear brake is engaged at some level per the LT's computer.
  • Now, with the bike still running ... you need to get the front tire up off the floor. (My handy assistant helped me ... aka 'the wife'. She just pushed down on the top trunk rack and held the rear tire to the floor with the front tire up in the air.)
  • Spin the front tire as hard as you can. With the slightest pressure to the front brake lever, the front tire will stop instantly. Now spin the front tire again, but this time apply pressure to the rear brake lever. You will notice that it requires quite a bit of pressure to get the front tire stopped. It is this calculation that aids in low-speed maneuvers by the LT's computer.
Try it, and report back. I did this test on 3 different LTs (pre'05, and post'04 models), all yielding the same results.

HTH

Asleepless
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post #15 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 11:56 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asleeplessknight
+1 LT_Pilot says it very succinctly.

Good point here. Keeping the rpms up helps keep the beast more stable at low speeds (gyro affect).
There really is no gyro effect with a brick engine. Keeping the RPM's up some help by having the power there instantly if you need it.... as in "falling down".



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post #16 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 12:34 pm
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Re: Testing the LT's "Integral Braking System"

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Here's what I did:
  • Take the LT for a short ride, as to fully engage the ABS/Integral Braking system.
  • Pull the LT into your garage, do NOT shut off the bike and put it up on it's centerstand.
  • With the LT running, put the LT in gear and get the rear tire spinning. Pull in the clutch. With the slightest pressure to either the front level or rear lever, the rear brake will stop instantly. This test displays that, at any speed, the rear brake is engaged at some level per the LT's computer.
  • Now, with the bike still running ... you need to get the front tire up off the floor. (My handy assistant helped me ... aka 'the wife'. She just pushed down on the top trunk rack and held the rear tire to the floor with the front tire up in the air.)
  • Spin the front tire as hard as you can. With the slightest pressure to the front brake lever, the front tire will stop instantly. Now spin the front tire again, but this time apply pressure to the rear brake lever. You will notice that it requires quite a bit of pressure to get the front tire stopped. It is this calculation that aids in low-speed maneuvers by the LT's computer.
Try it, and report back. I did this test on 3 different LTs (pre'05, and post'04 models), all yielding the same results.

HTH
Joe,
What happens if you have both tires off of the ground and spinning? Since the speedo sensor is on the rear wheel when does it engage / disengage the "Integrated" feature?

Roy

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post #17 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 1:58 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razman10
Practice, practice, practice!!!

Thinking logically, we see professional athletes playing their sport every day and still EVERY DAY they attend practice. Why??? They're already good at what they do! They've already received their contracts worth millions!

If they don't practice, they lose their skills and do not get better and soon they'll be out of a job... This should be no different for us MC riders!!!
I don't really need "convincing"
but if I did that's about the best "reasoning"
to go for a ride that I've ever heard.


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post #18 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 3:41 pm
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear
I presume bike on center stand test is: With bike in gear and below 10 MPH application of the front does "NOT" operate the rear. Is this correct?
From my tests and observations, that is NOT correct. The front lever always activates the rear brake at some level.
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post #19 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 3:44 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asleeplessknight
+1 LT_Pilot says it very succinctly.

Good point here. Keeping the rpms up helps keep the beast more stable at low speeds (gyro affect).
Errrrr......I don't think so! The flywheel is oriented in the wrong direction to give the machine the stability from gyroscopic effect! OTOH, the gyro effect of the two wheels increases with the speed of the bike, which gives you better stability with higher speeds.

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post #20 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 3:48 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
There really is no gyro effect with a brick engine. Keeping the RPM's up some help by having the power there instantly if you need it.... as in "falling down".
.....aslo makes it easier to feather the clutch without stalling!

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post #21 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 6:25 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Now we'll have half of the members of this site dropping their bikes............
Learn to control the bike at low speeds but don't push your luck just trying "lock to lock" turns. Once at full lock, the likely next place is fully on the ground.

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post #22 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 6:57 pm
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Thumbs up Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Hard lesson learned during recent rider course www.motomark1.com is that the bike will go where you look. even during slow speed riding. I had, have trouble finding the sweet feather spot on the clutch. may just be me but could not find it. ended up riding most of the day at idle about 1100 rpm. Dropped the bike three times in the first hour and half. Had it drummed into my head to not look down, because that is where the bike will go. 3K rpms seems a little high for me. during the Iron Cross section of the course where we practiced 8's, U's and O's I was able to avoid several "near drops" by getting my eyes up off from the ground where I was looking, and looking where I wanted to go next. If I hadn't seen it myself by experience I would not believe it could be that easy. Now I have to do what has been said here several times. Practice hard and often.

The course was very much worth it.

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post #23 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 7:32 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Been riding my 2001 LT since AUG 2000.
Took the ERC, early.
Didn't have any problems putting the LT through the paces, especially the emergency braking (ABS works).

Later, like Tobiwan, took the
MotoMark1 Precision Maneuvering Course (Durham, NC)
and the Strategic Rider courses (Pope AFB, NC).
Both demanding course focused on low speed, tight maneuvering.
Mark Brown and his staff were excellent trainers,
willing to work one-on-one when needed.
My skills and confidence in my ability to control the LT went up immensely.

In the Strategic Rider Course, all the other bikes were crotch rockets.
You had to weave your way though a series of cone (laid out in a straight line), then a series of 180-degree turns, then a 360-degree circle (20-foot diameter), then a series of tight alternating curves, ending in straight line acceleration to an evasive maneuver and emergency braking.
The LT went through all that with relative ease.

When Mark came back to Pope to run another course, the students had made only a few runs through the course and were still having trouble negotiating the cones.

Mark had demonstrated the maneuvers and negotiated the course with an R1200GS.
He had me go through with the LT to show them that if a big bike could do it, they should be able to do it with the sport bikes.
I ran the LT through the course, with my Bushtec trailer attached.
Knocked down two cones.

It's a great bike.

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Can't emphasize enough: Practice, practice, practice, often.

Have fun and safe riding.
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post #24 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 7:49 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

I suck in tight, low-speed turns. I've put 65k miles on the LT in 3 years and I still -- to this day -- have myself convinced that I have to continue down the road to The World's Largest Parking Lot to sedately turn around, rather than do a u-turn. I've never done a u-turn on the beast. (well, I've done u-turns but they were nowhere near 20' diameter turns)

I lack the confidence to look over my shoulder and trust that what I'm not seeing (right in front of me, and in the path of the turn) isn't going to be gravel or some other obstacle that I won't know about until I run over it. I've seen the photos of how it's done and read the descriptions... but I won't bring myself to do it. Maybe I'll get out to a parking lot and give it a go. Or, if I could use someone else's bike I'd be less concerned about dropping it...

Howard Schisler
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post #25 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 7:58 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

I have an 03. I can hear the break servos, one servo goes on when I apply the front break slightly, but squeez it harder and I hear the second one kick in. I can also hear that when using the rear break one kicks in then the other when you apply more pressure. When I use the rear break in low speed I know my rear break engages first. I have a hard time with balance if I use the front, the front wheel wants to turn in but its easy if I use the just rear break, nice and staight stable. That would support what Joe is saying.

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post #26 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 8:41 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Practice low speed maneuvering.

First thing to remember.
Get the bike back upright before you stop.

Practice
* feathering the clutch,
* light pressure on the rear brake,
* and maintaining the RPMs at 3000-3500.
Get used to going straight, adjusting all three inputs.
Then start making left curves, right curves, and circles.
With practice, start decreasing the radius of the curves and circles.
Keep your head up and looking at where you want to go.
Not where you're afraid you're going to go (down).
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post #27 of 48 Old Oct 17th, 2008, 11:10 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I lack the confidence to look over my shoulder and trust that what I'm not seeing (right in front of me, and in the path of the turn) isn't going to be gravel or some other obstacle that I won't know about until I run over it.
You're supposed to check out the area before starting your u-turn. It's not likely that gravel or a light pole will suddenly appear within the next minute or two.

Again, go to a parking lot, find a large, clean, dry area, then just keep doing it over and over and over again . . .

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post #28 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 2:51 pm
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I suck in tight, low-speed turns. I've put 65k miles on the LT in 3 years and I still -- to this day -- have myself convinced that I have to continue down the road to The World's Largest Parking Lot to sedately turn around, rather than do a u-turn. I've never done a u-turn on the beast. (well, I've done u-turns but they were nowhere near 20' diameter turns)

I lack the confidence to look over my shoulder and trust that what I'm not seeing (right in front of me, and in the path of the turn) isn't going to be gravel or some other obstacle that I won't know about until I run over it. I've seen the photos of how it's done and read the descriptions... but I won't bring myself to do it. Maybe I'll get out to a parking lot and give it a go. Or, if I could use someone else's bike I'd be less concerned about dropping it...



There is nothing wrong with you riding within your skill level....If you never learn how to do a figure 8 or a u-turn on the road, big deal.... your bike has reverse on it so you can get turned around.. Honest if you never do a u-turn you haven't missed a thing......

Drive within your comfort zone not anyone else's,,,, we don't all posse the same skill set,,, use yours the best you can...........Pete
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post #29 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 2:59 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I suck in tight, low-speed turns. I've put 65k miles on the LT in 3 years and I still -- to this day -- have myself convinced that I have to continue down the road to The World's Largest Parking Lot to sedately turn around, rather than do a u-turn. I've never done a u-turn on the beast. (well, I've done u-turns but they were nowhere near 20' diameter turns)

I lack the confidence to look over my shoulder and trust that what I'm not seeing (right in front of me, and in the path of the turn) isn't going to be gravel or some other obstacle that I won't know about until I run over it. I've seen the photos of how it's done and read the descriptions... but I won't bring myself to do it. Maybe I'll get out to a parking lot and give it a go. Or, if I could use someone else's bike I'd be less concerned about dropping it...
It is a skill that is worth learning. And you don't need to start out doing full lock turns from the get-go. Start out in a large parking lot and do U-turns and figures of a large enough size so that you are comfortable. Then gradually tighten the turns a little at a time. When you start to feel too nervous, knock off and come back another day. I'll bet that after a few sessions you will be doing fairly tight turns and maybe even some that are full-lock or very close!

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post #30 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 3:01 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
There is nothing wrong with you riding within your skill level....If you never learn how to do a figure 8 or a u-turn on the road, big deal.... your bike has reverse on it so you can get turned around.. Honest if you never do a u-turn you haven't missed a thing......

Drive within your comfort zone not anyone else's,,,, we don't all posse the same skill set,,, use yours the best you can...........Pete
Yes, by all means drive within your current comfort zone, but never accept this attitude that you are what you are and can't improve. That is a deadly attitude for a motorcyclist. All of us can get better even if we don't have the skills of a road racer. It just takes the desire to improve and some time spent in a parking lot practicing.

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post #31 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 4:39 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

I never use the brakes while doing figure eights its all head and eyes clutch throttle control. No need to do any braking.

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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper
I never use the brakes while doing figure eights its all head and eyes clutch throttle control. No need to do any braking.
On your LT, too? Bow to your sensa! Bow to your sensa!

Asleepless
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post #33 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:05 pm
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper
I never use the brakes while doing figure eights its all head and eyes clutch throttle control. No need to do any braking.
That's OK. I never use the brakes when I see flashing lights behind me! I guess that makes us even.
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post #34 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 7:41 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
There is nothing wrong with you riding within your skill level....If you never learn how to do a figure 8 or a u-turn on the road, big deal.... your bike has reverse on it so you can get turned around.. Honest if you never do a u-turn you haven't missed a thing......

Drive within your comfort zone not anyone else's,,,, we don't all posse the same skill set,,, use yours the best you can...........Pete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Yes, by all means drive within your current comfort zone, but never accept this attitude that you are what you are and can't improve. That is a deadly attitude for a motorcyclist. All of us can get better even if we don't have the skills of a road racer. It just takes the desire to improve and some time spent in a parking lot practicing.
I think that describes my approach. I've made progress, I know I need to make more, and I want to. I'll work on it.

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2012 BMW F650GS (sold)
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post #35 of 48 Old Oct 18th, 2008, 8:30 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Roy - Had an 02 for 6 wonderful years. Was able to do slow speed manuvers dragging rear brake with no trouble. Ok, once - hit the pedal too hard and engaged the front brake. Gentle pressure should not create an issue. Even easier on my 07 (which has the latest version of the integrals).

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post #36 of 48 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 6:02 pm
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Yes, by all means drive within your current comfort zone, but never accept this attitude that you are what you are and can't improve. That is a deadly attitude for a motorcyclist. All of us can get better even if we don't have the skills of a road racer. It just takes the desire to improve and some time spent in a parking lot practicing.
Now where did I say he could NOT improve????????????
I didn't think so Did it ever cross your brain that he just may not be coordinated enough to to maneuver the bike that tight... Like you trying to beat Minnesota Fats in pool,, you can practice your whole life and you will never be good enough to beat him.......

Same with bike riding, ride for a year or ride for a lifetime you ain't never going to be Kenny Roberts.... So watch that 1st step off your high horse.............Pete
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post #37 of 48 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 7:52 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Hey Pete,

Lighten up.

Gary
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post #38 of 48 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 8:16 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
Now where did I say he could NOT improve????????????
I didn't think so Did it ever cross your brain that he just may not be coordinated enough to to maneuver the bike that tight... Like you trying to beat Minnesota Fats in pool,, you can practice your whole life and you will never be good enough to beat him.......

Same with bike riding, ride for a year or ride for a lifetime you ain't never going to be Kenny Roberts.... So watch that 1st step off your high horse.............Pete
Whoa there, cowboy. I read nothing negative from (or into) his remarks. In fact, it was a little bit of encouragement. It's all good.

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post #39 of 48 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 8:25 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
Now where did I say he could NOT improve????????????
I didn't think so Did it ever cross your brain that he just may not be coordinated enough to to maneuver the bike that tight... Like you trying to beat Minnesota Fats in pool,, you can practice your whole life and you will never be good enough to beat him.......

Same with bike riding, ride for a year or ride for a lifetime you ain't never going to be Kenny Roberts.... So watch that 1st step off your high horse.............Pete
You said,

"There is nothing wrong with you riding within your skill level....If you never learn how to do a figure 8 or a u-turn on the road, big deal.... your bike has reverse on it so you can get turned around.. Honest if you never do a u-turn you haven't missed a thing......

Drive within your comfort zone not anyone else's,,,, we don't all posse the same skill set,,, use yours the best you can...........Pete"

That sure sounds to me like you were suggesting that he did not need to improve and should be content with his current skill level. And your reply above continues the same theme.

I stand by what I wrote and I believe that your advice is very ill-advised, is incorrect and is borderline dangerous. Anyone who can't make a u-turn on their motorcycle is missing a lot. They are missing a lot of capability; capability that IS within the capability of almost anyone who can keep a motorcycle upright for more than 100 feet.

So, no, it never crossed my mind that he couldn't learn to do this as I have every expectation that he can. Sorry, I simply won't accept mediocrity in anything I do and needing to use reverse to make a 180 on an LT is mediocrity plain and simple.

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post #40 of 48 Old Oct 19th, 2008, 8:37 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I've made progress, I know I need to make more, and I want to. I'll work on it.
That's easy, Howard. Just follow Caitlin around for a while, and pay attention.

Ken
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post #41 of 48 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 6:09 pm
 
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Well,, I'm Glad your standing by what you said,, it really goes with your attire.....

But the way I read your post is that he WILL learn to do a figure 8 or a u-turn... I'm saying not everyone has the physical talent to get there and if they don't it's not the end of the world.....Maybe if he doesn't get there someone should just put a bullet in his head and put him out of his misery..........

LT_Pilot if I get any more relaxed,,,,, well anyway... If Voyager's post didn't seem a little arrogant and condescending I probably would have moved on....Proably should have cause this ain't worth all the typing ................Pete
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post #42 of 48 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 6:53 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson
Well,, I'm Glad your standing by what you said,, it really goes with your attire.....

But the way I read your post is that he WILL learn to do a figure 8 or a u-turn... I'm saying not everyone has the physical talent to get there and if they don't it's not the end of the world.....Maybe if he doesn't get there someone should just put a bullet in his head and put him out of his misery..........

LT_Pilot if I get any more relaxed,,,,, well anyway... If Voyager's post didn't seem a little arrogant and condescending I probably would have moved on....Proably should have cause this ain't worth all the typing ................Pete
My post was not nearly as condescending as yours. YOU are the one who suggested he was too uncoordinated to learn how to do a simple maneuver like a U-turn without needing to use reverse. In my home state you can't get your motorcycle license if you can't do a u-turn in a street without touching your feet. This is an advanced maneuver. This is riding 101.

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post #43 of 48 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 7:51 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Thank you Tobiwan !

It's great to get real, positive feedback on any of our classes. Slow speed work, figure 8s, off set cone weave, and the dreaded iron cross all have the same basic skills, head, eyes, clutch, throttle. You notice I didn't mention brakes.. We have found the method of not using any brake is much smoother.

Tobiwan is a rider. He road his LT from NY to Charlotte NC (some 800 miles), a days ride for him, to take our one day, precision maneuvering class. Yes he dropped his precious LT 3 times and just got right back on. To his defense, the LT is without question, the hardest motorcycle to ride in motor officer courses. You'll also notice he said that he learned to turn his head and look where you want to go. That is crucial for low speed work.

When I teach a class, I use my LT for all the demos. It did take additional practice to get it right. I learned on Road Kings and then onto BMW RT-Ps. I can't stress enough how important slow speed skills are to your overall riding skills.

I tell everyone that I thought I knew how to ride until I took a motor officer class. That's where I really learned how to control my motorcycle, low speed work really increased my confidence and made me a better, safer rider.

I invite you all to come take one of our classes. www.motomark1.com

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post #44 of 48 Old Oct 20th, 2008, 8:05 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-NC
Thank you Tobiwan !

It's great to get real, positive feedback on any of our classes. Slow speed work, figure 8s, off set cone weave, and the dreaded iron cross all have the same basic skills, head, eyes, clutch, throttle. You notice I didn't mention brakes.. We have found the method of not using any brake is much smoother.

Tobiwan is a rider. He road his LT from NY to Charlotte NC (some 800 miles), a days ride for him, to take our one day, precision maneuvering class. Yes he dropped his precious LT 3 times and just got right back on. To his defense, the LT is without question, the hardest motorcycle to ride in motor officer courses. You'll also notice he said that he learned to turn his head and look where you want to go. That is crucial for low speed work.

When I teach a class, I use my LT for all the demos. It did take additional practice to get it right. I learned on Road Kings and then onto BMW RT-Ps. I can't stress enough how important slow speed skills are to your overall riding skills.

I tell everyone that I thought I knew how to ride until I took a motor officer class. That's where I really learned how to control my motorcycle, low speed work really increased my confidence and made me a better, safer rider.

I invite you all to come take one of our classes. www.motomark1.com

Brian


I agree with you 100% Brian. Thats how things are instructed here in Ca. with the slow cone patterns here. The only exception is while doing incline work braking is allowed.

Bill (aka Chipper)
Elk Grove Ca.
2014 K1600GTL-E
2009 K1200LT (BLACK)-Traded In
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post #45 of 48 Old Oct 21st, 2008, 12:18 am
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Sort of related.

Anyone temporarily "rigged" their LT to be more protected when falling over? Extra padding on the wings and saddlebags? What did you use? How did you attach? Any good ideas?

I have the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD's that I practiced with early on. I quickly found the limits of my riding ability in some of those maneuvers and it would be a whole lot easier to not be so worried about scratching up the bike or bending the brake or shift lever when testing my limits.

I had to make a parking lot U-Turn at work today. Totally blew it. Got too nervous to really go for it with cars parked on all sides and couple of fellow riders watching. Didn't dump it or hit anything but my foot went down (just can't stop that yet) and the throttle raced. Had to pull up and walk it back for a three pointer.

Another question. How do you know when it's just too tight to make the turn? Once you're committed to the turn there is no slamming on the brakes or inching up to the limiting object (like a parked car.) The decision to pull up and stop has to be made early, otherwise you are either going down or hitting something.

Thanks for reading all that!

Dan
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post #46 of 48 Old Oct 22nd, 2008, 10:22 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Wow! There's a lot going on in this thread.

One question, one comment. Question first.

No one has mentioned. When doing a tight turn (U, O, etc.) do you keep your body leaned past the centerline into the turn, leaned right on the centerline, or leaned against the turn - so your body stays upright while the bike is leaned over? I've heard all three when I've asked for advice.

Comment:

I just took a week off work and rode around northern California. 3,000 miles in a week. I took every motorcycle road I had time for. Seven days, about 8 hours a day.

While doing some amazing twisties, I got the feeling (on some roads) that my skills of 30 years sucked. Then I got back, read some forums about those roads (at pashnit.com) and discovered that you should never take a Wing, a Harley, or an LT down those roads (straight up and down with ultra-tight hairpins in a single lane and rough pavement). Now they tell me

One thing I figured out about myself - I could make the LT go down some big, wide roads with lovely sweepers a lot faster than the speed I took them. I could probably drive 20 MPH faster - but I couldn't bring myself to do it. WHY? Because they were blind sweepers. It was all forrest where I was and I was really uncomfortable driving fast and not being able to see around the bend - even on wide, nice roads. So what it comes down to is this:

I drove at speeds that were comfortable for me. I've gotten a lot faster and my skills are way up since I got the LT because I practice so much. But if I'm uncomfortable, it's no fun. My survival instincts say I cannot drive 20 MPH faster if I can't see around the bend, because what if there's a truck over the centerline, or a broken down vehicle, or an animal crossing the road?

Lastly, I dropped the LT twice in the first two weeks, until I consulted a swami (OK - it was this forum) and discovered that you can't use your front brake going slow and turning hard.

Since then, I've never come close to dropping her because I take my time, don't do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable, constantly practice what you've all taught me, stay in the moment and NEVER let my mind wander, and most importantly, don't care what anyone thinks (who might be watching) if I decide to make a three point turn or put it in reverse to get the big girl turned around. I'm well aware that I'm 50, 5'10", and 155 lbs, and smart enough to realize I will lose any argument I have with this bike (or with any woman, for that matter )

Now that I've got a year on the LT commuting in L.A., driving long distance (50% two up with camping gear) and through hours of twisties with absolutely no incidents, I've come to realize my skills don't suck.

My $0.02

mike p
2005 BMW K1200LT (got it in July 2007)
2002 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R (parked next to the LT)
1982 Suzuki GS-750EZ (paid $500
for it in 1985, sold it for $450 in 2000)
1978 Honda CB-500F (sold in 1980)
1976 Honda CB-400F (drowned to
death in the blizzard of 1978 in Boston)
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post #47 of 48 Old Oct 22nd, 2008, 10:31 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dglenn1
Anyone temporarily "rigged" their LT to be more protected when falling over? Extra padding on the wings and saddlebags? What did you use? How did you attach? Any good ideas?
I presume you're talking about low speed practice, not high speed sliding. Get some hard foam padding (maybe an old camp mattress, or carpet pieces) and some duct tape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dglenn1
Another question. How do you know when it's just too tight to make the turn?
Practice, practice, practice.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #48 of 48 Old Oct 22nd, 2008, 10:33 pm
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Re: So... You're Afraid to Do Lock-To-Lock Figure 8's with your LT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbiker
I just took a week off work and rode around northern California. 3,000 miles in a week. I took every motorcycle road I had time for. Seven days, about 8 hours a day.

<snip>

I drove at speeds that were comfortable for me. I've gotten a lot faster and my skills are way up since I got the LT because I practice so much. But if I'm uncomfortable, it's no fun.
Sounds to me like you're doing it right.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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