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post #1 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 6:15 am Thread Starter
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Lightbulb Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Hi all,

I posted some time ago that my engine is making a lot of noise.
I do have a ticking related to rpm (edit : in any gear). Seems that disengaging the clutch cancels the noise (edit : bike riding). Other than that, bike runs fine and does not consumes oil nor excessive fuel.

Some of you proposed a lick at exhaust brackets but seems not to be that.

I did the clearance valve inspection and everything about the timing chain seems ok. ("seems" as I removed only the cover to check the clearances).

Some proposed a noise from the injectors but I'm not sure I can verify that. Plus would it be rpm related then ?

I found the spark plugs were a little "oily" when I changed them.

The point now is to disassemble the engine and check the inside of it. There is not so much things that can make noise after all... (I guess).
I understand it is a hell of a job but I wanted to do something like that for years. Bike is for sale but I do not want to sell a lemon.

Does it seems realistic, guys ? Or is this just a too big job ?

Note : My dad is a former mechanic, and a good one.

PS : I can't let her to the shop as I can't afford those.

Thanks


BMW K1200LT '06 - SUZUKI V-STROM 650 '07
BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1150GS '02 (sold) - YAMAHA Roadliner '06 (sold) - BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1100RT (sold) - HONDA Shadow Aero (sold) - HONDA Shadow 125 (sold)

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post #2 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 7:55 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

My new bike made noise until I disengaged the clutch. Still kinda does. If you are not blowing blue smoke on startup after taking bike off CENTERSTAND, don't worry about it.

Good move to not sell a lemon....

As for the noise... You might make sure you are using the correct OIL. Also, the "timing chain" has some "tensioning" pads that rub against it. If they are worn, noise will increase.... It's not hard to replace them.. just be careful you don't lose engine timing.

finally, the Alternator drive has some rubber vibration isolators that can wear... and that seems to be able to make noise, too.

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post #3 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
If you are not blowing blue smoke on startup after taking bike off CENTERSTAND, don't worry about it.
There often is some blue smoke at startup, with the sidestand

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
As for the noise... You might make sure you are using the correct OIL
OIL is correct at 10w40

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
the "timing chain" has some "tensioning" pads that rub against it. If they are worn, noise will increase...
An invoice from last owner said the kit is new + everything looked fine as I checked the clearances

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
finally, the Alternator drive has some rubber vibration isolators that can wear... and that seems to be able to make noise, too.
I will check that

Thanks

BMW K1200LT '06 - SUZUKI V-STROM 650 '07
BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1150GS '02 (sold) - YAMAHA Roadliner '06 (sold) - BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1100RT (sold) - HONDA Shadow Aero (sold) - HONDA Shadow 125 (sold)
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post #4 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:38 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Blue smoke,from what I'm told is normal coming off of the sidestand. Mine makes some noise too but I do think it is the injectors. I really did bother me until I discovered the volume control on the radio.
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post #5 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:41 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

OOPs,

As for yanking the motor...I have a manual, it really doesn't look all that difficult. I think preparation; plenty of room to lay parts out as well as the proper tools and no adult beverages during the process, you should be good to go. Good luck if you do decide to go for it.
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post #6 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:43 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Salut Frenchy,
Has your bike always made the same type of noise or did you notice a change in the noise? When compared to Japanese bikes (I had 5 Honda's before getting my LT) the LT sure makes a lot of mechanical noises (gear noises, rattling, etc...). It concerned me at the beginning but once I found out that other LTs, even the brand new ones, were noisy too I stopped being concerned and started appreciating the riding quality of my LT. As we say if it is not broken don't fix it.
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post #7 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:57 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Compared to the other bikes I have owned, my LT is one NOISY bike. Over the years of ownership even fellow riders (non LT owners) would remark on how noisy the engine is.

Howard Dusenbery 2000 K1200LTC
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post #8 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 9:53 am Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpac
Has your bike always made the same type of noise or did you notice a change in the noise?
Salut

I only have the bike since beginning of this year. It's a 99' with 44k miles on it. I beg I did not noticed the noisy engine as I test rode the bike. Surely too excited I was

It's my 2nd LT and it is definitely not the same sound as the first one. (ok ok I should have noticed that during the test...)

The noise makes me ride 5th gear at very low speed just to lower the noise a little due to less revving.

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BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1150GS '02 (sold) - YAMAHA Roadliner '06 (sold) - BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1100RT (sold) - HONDA Shadow Aero (sold) - HONDA Shadow 125 (sold)
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post #9 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 10:04 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

The valves on an LT make a lot of noise. When it gets really loud, it usually means your exhaust header is loose (or possibly cracked). Snug the nuts up to 22Nm and the noise should die down. The turn up the stereo and ride it like you stole it.

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post #10 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 10:22 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Some of you proposed a lick at exhaust brackets but seems not to be that.


The only way to rule this out is to remove the exhaust and replace all the gaskets. Then and only then can you rule this out. The bikes do differ in that the cut gears are matched up at the factory that transfer the crank to the main input to the tranny. These can vary considerably from build to build on noise.

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post #11 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 11:11 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

I too have noticed a "ticking" sound while crusing expecially near a wall, guard rail, or something to have the noise echo back. To me it sounds as if there were a rock or something on the tire that "ticks" each time the wheel rotates. But now I don't remember for sure but I think the noise goes away when I disengage the clutch. I will check that again on my way home. Been doing that for about 10K but it may have been doing it for longer and I just didn't notice it. All else seems fine.

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post #12 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 11:48 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDusenbery
Compared to the other bikes I have owned, my LT is one NOISY bike. Over the years of ownership even fellow riders (non LT owners) would remark on how noisy the engine is.


I have a 2000 LT with 104,000 miles on it, and it makes noises too. Tinkles, clicks, even some clunking or thunking at times. Yes, it worried me a bit when I rode with others who's LTs, Wings, or RT's didn't sound the same, but the whole time I was thinking about how well the bike rides, with no other issues or stutters or smoke, and I kept thinking about what others on this forum have said, if it aint broke, don't fix it.
So I ride a noisy LT, but the only way you'd hear it is to catch me, and that aint gonna happen! Zoom Zoom!

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post #13 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 11:56 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

I was advised by my dealer to use 20/50 oil. API SH I believe.

Heavier weight oil might quiet things down a bit.

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post #14 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 11:56 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

C'moon guys. If there is an engine there is bound to be moving parts. If there are moving parts there is bound to be tolerance. If there is tolerance there is bound to be some noise.

People have gone crazy in trying to find the source of some "tick & clank & clunk". Useless if bike runs fine and doesn't burn oil. Turn the stereo ON, LOUD and forget the noise.

/Seppo

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post #15 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 12:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-A-D
C'moon guys. If there is an engine there is bound to be moving parts. If there are moving parts there is bound to be tolerance. If there is tolerance there is bound to be some noise.

People have gone crazy in trying to find the source of some "tick & clank & clunk".
I understand that.

Of course I believe in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" BUT I do believe the bike does not run the way it should.

I'm going to dig the exhaust thing and I will change the gaskets and check the weldings.

Keep suggesting pals

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post #16 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 4:47 pm
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Question Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Dis-moi Frenchy, what is your plan once you have the engine apart? What will you be checking for? Any thoughts?

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post #17 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 6:12 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Taking the LT engine apart is EASY! You do not have to remove it from the bike to take EVERYTHING off of and out of it. The only thing you cannot work on with the engine in the bike is the starter and alternator drive gear train.

It is one of the easiest bike engines I know of to work on.

Here is a picture of mine apart.
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post #18 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 6:34 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

stupid?

Unless you you have a reason to do it. For the fun of it? Okay, not stupid.
But if you are taking it apart to explore for a rattle you don't like, I'd suggest diagnosing the problem before you do the disassembly. It may be an exercise in futility.

Have you read the service manual completely and learned what all the tolerances are, and are you prepared to measure all of them to make sure they are in "spec"?

And if something is within spec, but on the loose side of specification, are you going to tighten if up because it might be the cause of engine noise?

Not all models of these bikes make the same amount of noise, but that doesn't mean that the noisy ones are "bad".

Have you listened around with a mechanic's stethoscope to try to localize the noise?

Common source for "K bike rattle" from a previous post: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...13926#poststop
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post #19 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 7:34 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Taking the LT engine apart is EASY! You do not have to remove it from the bike to take EVERYTHING off of and out of it. The only thing you cannot work on with the engine in the bike is the starter and alternator drive gear train.

It is one of the easiest bike engines I know of to work on.

Here is a picture of mine apart.
What was wrong with it?

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post #20 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:39 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

I would suggest trying a 20w50 weight oil. That is what is used in most LT's. I bet it would make a difference. I'd sure do that before a disassembly.

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post #21 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:47 pm
 
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Probably clutch noise . The LT has a dry clutch no, If you pull the clutch leaver in & the noise goes away . it could be the culprit . I only say this because mine makes what I call a rattle at idle in neutral . But as soon as I engage & ride away the noise goes away . Also I'm pretty sure that the manual recommends 20W-50 oil . I questioned my dealer about that especially since I ride all year long if there is no snow or ice on the ground . I was told that grade of oil is what is required
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post #22 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 8:53 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
What was wrong with it?
Old news for most here. This was in 2004. I was on a cross country trip, and in Memphis I lost idle speed control. Rode it to Little Rock, the very new dealer there worked on it for a couple of hours, diagnosed it as a bad throttle positioner, but they did not have one. I rode it home to San Diego, took it to my dealer there, who rapidly correctly diagnosed it as a bad vacuum leak. Replaced all the throttle body and crankcase ventilation seals and hoses.

After that, my oil usage started going up until eventually I was using about a quart every 3-4,000 miles.

I pulled the engine down and found the compression ring land on all four pistons was broken, in the same place. A couple of experts diagnosed it as detonation damage, caused in the couple thousand miles I rode with the bad vacuum leak.

I put new pistons in it, and it was running better than ever for the 10,000 miles I put on it before unfortunately totaling it Nov. '04.

A picture of the pistons was posted fairly recently in another thread.

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post #23 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 9:33 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
stupid?

But if you are taking it apart to explore for a rattle you don't like, I'd suggest diagnosing the problem before you do the disassembly. It may be an exercise in futility.
All great advise here. But this was the best. Spend lots of time to pinpoint what you are looking for. Do not take it apart until you are reasonably sure what you are going to find. Nothing is as frustrating as taking a major component apart and find nothing. And if you don't know what you are looking for, you may still miss it in the disassembled state.

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post #24 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 9:33 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Some proposed a noise from the injectors but I'm not sure I can verify that. Plus would it be rpm related then ?
Bosch injectors are known to be noisy (but also the best injectors around). Injector noise will get louder and faster as RPM increases, since they will need to actuate faster and more often as the engine turns faster.
To check them, get a mechanic's stethoscope and use it on each injector, you should hear them clicking even at idle then.
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post #25 of 36 Old Sep 11th, 2008, 10:02 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

I agree that more diagnosis, checking for suspected difficulties, is in order before such a drastic step as dis-assembling the motor.

However, once a solid diagnosis based upon solid research & testing, disassembly is, as told to me by my "Saint Mechanicus", a wrench with over 60 years of working experience, now long departed from this world, who said:

..."the machine is nothing but metal bits in various shapes and sizes, with a bit of copper & rubber here and there, held together by various fasteners. It cannot think, cannot choose to frustrate you. It's difficulty is only in the number of, and access to, the fasteners, and a matter of having the proper tools, applied in the proper manner and in the proper order. Big jobs are nothing but a sequence of smaller jobs. The trick is gaining access, and remembering how to put the tricky puzzle back together"

I've reminded myself of his sage remarks, many times when confronted with an intimidating repair, and found him to be always correct...it really is just a sequence of undoing metal (or tupperware) parts from one another by first gaining access, and following the proper sequence, then reversing same for re-assembly. Hardly rocket science. Just time consuming.

What I've learned on my own is that a thorough de-greasing and cleaning before disassembly is more than worth the time and effort it takes, and photos, drawings, and labeling of parts, along with organized storage of same as they are removed, is also more than worth the time and effort it takes.

Finally as an earlier post mentioned, having sufficient space for the work to be done, and parts to be stored in orderly manner, until project is completed is very important for me.

But, if it isn't really, really broke, Don't fix it!

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post #26 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 3:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

It pleases me to see that this thread interests some people

I can't answer all of you as you all pointed out really interesting points

Is my "to-do" list correct ?

* Check for leaking exhaust with a soap solution. Check the exhaust thing by disassembling it and changing the seals. Check the weldings.

* Get a stethoscope or similar to find the exact location of the noise
- check the injectors (is there a way to disassemble and clean ?)
- check the timing assembly


@ David : I just love this picture. Awesome


Any more ideas are welcome

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BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1150GS '02 (sold) - YAMAHA Roadliner '06 (sold) - BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1100RT (sold) - HONDA Shadow Aero (sold) - HONDA Shadow 125 (sold)
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post #27 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 7:10 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

CHANGE THE OIL TO A 20W-50 10w 40 is too thin for this bike.

Jack Homesley
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post #28 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 7:29 am Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
CHANGE THE OIL TO A 20W-50 10w 40 is too thin for this bike.
Please don't get mad at me

I may be wrong but in my mind, the greater the number, the thinner the oil, am I wrong ?

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post #29 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 8:36 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Please don't get mad at me

I may be wrong but in my mind, the greater the number, the thinner the oil, am I wrong ?
I don't think that Jack was mad at you!! He was just stressing the point.

No, you are not correct. The larger the number the "thicker" the oil is!

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post #30 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 10:34 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy
- check the injectors (is there a way to disassemble and clean ?)
Yes, but not by a mechanic, this is a speciality.
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post #31 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 10:44 am
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

There are mechanics and there are mechanics.
My neighbor has a 2007 LT with zero issues. He also has a PHD in mechanical engineering. He took the bike apart down to the nut and put the whole thing back for fun last winter.. Feels BMW mechanics are overpaid technicians. Granted Dave is an Egg head but looks at all mechanical things that way.. A good source for issues with my bike provided I catch him on a good day, i.e., walking up my driveway to chat. I would never take an engine apart. But if you are comfortable with rebuilding, go for it.


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post #32 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 4:29 pm
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Talking Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Engine noise hmmm . . . just recently helped Wayne Edkin eliminate some engine noises on a 2005 with 80,000 miles. Please note these noises appeared to come from the rear of the engine and front of the transmission. These noises were very loud at idle speed and many people and several dealers provided their opinion. BMW Bentonville, BMW Salt Lake City, Max BMW and a host of BMW Iron Butt Riders at the Iron Butt meeting in Tulsa, OK three weeks ago. Thought they were valves, rods and then transmission.

From a performance perspective there was also a poor idle condition and the need to slip the clutch a little during take offs. So here is the story.

The dealer during a 12,000 mile checkup sprayed some starter fluid in the area of the throttle bodies and the RPM picked up?? They believe air was getting in to the system around the air throttle bodies. They could not get it into the shop before CCR. Wayne bought the parts and came to my home in Cincinnati and we replaced the rubber boots above the throttle bodies and between the air box.

Upon removal of the boots we found the factory installed two of the four boots improperly - they were folded up on the back side and the possiblity of a good seal was compromised. Poor idle issue went away. Noise altered slightly but still there.

6000 miles later and after CCR Wayne took the bike to Country Rode BMW in New York. They again went into the same area and replaced the o rings on the bottom of the air throttle bodies along with the crank case manifold hose that goes to each of the air throttle bodies on the back side. Problem solved - NOISE GONE, performance up.

It has been deduced that the rubber parts deteriorated to the point of leaking air which produced a noise to the point that we were thinking engine repair. This leaking air on the intakes caused noises to reverberate to the point we thought this was a mechanical problem!!!!

So put this information into your memory banks in the event you may need it now or in the future.

Dan Finazzo
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post #33 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 9:42 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinazzo
Engine noise hmmm . . . just recently helped Wayne Edkin eliminate some engine noises on a 2005 with 80,000 miles. Please note these noises appeared to come from the rear of the engine and front of the transmission. These noises were very loud at idle speed and many people and several dealers provided their opinion. BMW Bentonville, BMW Salt Lake City, Max BMW and a host of BMW Iron Butt Riders at the Iron Butt meeting in Tulsa, OK three weeks ago. Thought they were valves, rods and then transmission.

From a performance perspective there was also a poor idle condition and the need to slip the clutch a little during take offs. So here is the story.

The dealer during a 12,000 mile checkup sprayed some starter fluid in the area of the throttle bodies and the RPM picked up?? They believe air was getting in to the system around the air throttle bodies. They could not get it into the shop before CCR. Wayne bought the parts and came to my home in Cincinnati and we replaced the rubber boots above the throttle bodies and between the air box.

Upon removal of the boots we found the factory installed two of the four boots improperly - they were folded up on the back side and the possiblity of a good seal was compromised. Poor idle issue went away. Noise altered slightly but still there.

6000 miles later and after CCR Wayne took the bike to Country Rode BMW in New York. They again went into the same area and replaced the o rings on the bottom of the air throttle bodies along with the crank case manifold hose that goes to each of the air throttle bodies on the back side. Problem solved - NOISE GONE, performance up.

It has been deduced that the rubber parts deteriorated to the point of leaking air which produced a noise to the point that we were thinking engine repair. This leaking air on the intakes caused noises to reverberate to the point we thought this was a mechanical problem!!!!

So put this information into your memory banks in the event you may need it now or in the future.
The boots above the throttle bodies will not cause engine problems to any extent beyond letting unfiltered air in, but can certainly cause noise.

The O-rings on the bottom of the throttle bodies and possibly the crankcase ventilation hose can certainly cause engine noise, and damage! Ask me how I know! -----------------

That is what caused detonation damage to all four of my pistons. Now you don't have to ask.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #34 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 9:58 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Frenchy - before you take your engine completely apart, ask yourself which statement is more reassuring to a prospective buyer.

A. You'll hear a ticking noise. It's common on this engine.

B. I heard a ticking noise, so me and my Dad took the engine completely apart, even though neither one of us is a BMW mechanic. It runs pretty good now.

Inside my 60 year old body is a 35 year old brain wondering what the hell happened.
2005 K1200LT
2005 Suzuki Burgman
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post #35 of 36 Old Sep 12th, 2008, 9:59 pm
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

My read of all this is this is that you have no business taking your engine apart. You might be better served if you save the money up and have someone who knows more than you have a look at your bike and attempt a diagnosis. Money well spent. Then you can decide what to do.

But that's just me...you decide.

Laurence Hendrick

2008 K1200GT, Dark Graphite (Oh my, so fast!)
2005 LT Ocean Blue (Sold and comfort will be missed, but not the weight)
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post #36 of 36 Old Sep 17th, 2008, 4:50 am Thread Starter
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Re: Disassembling engine = realistic or stupid ?

Thanks to everyone for all the advices

I took the decision not to open the engine right now. I guess all is said and done by : "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

As stated earlier, the bike runs just fine, it doesn't consumes oil nor excessive fuel... so what ?

I used the screwdriver technic to mimic the use of a stethoscope. Nothing to point out in the engine itself I guess. I may seek for some kind of rattling/cliking on plastic parts or maybe rust axes or something like that...
Also I will check the injectors and change the oil to 20w50 as some of you adviced.


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BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1150GS '02 (sold) - YAMAHA Roadliner '06 (sold) - BMW K1200LT '99 (sold) - BMW R1100RT (sold) - HONDA Shadow Aero (sold) - HONDA Shadow 125 (sold)
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