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post #1 of 13 Old Aug 17th, 2008, 6:54 pm Thread Starter
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Question final drive

Great site I just bought a 99 k1200lt with 30000 miles, I have noticed a grinding sound when I lean the bike into a turn, of course I think it may be the beginning of the end for the final drive. I would like to know what you guys think. THANK YOU ERNEST
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post #2 of 13 Old Aug 17th, 2008, 7:00 pm
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Re: final drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERNEST
Great site I just bought a 99 k1200lt with 30000 miles, I have noticed a grinding sound when I lean the bike into a turn, of course I think it may be the beginning of the end for the final drive. I would like to know what you guys think. THANK YOU ERNEST
Put the bike on the centerstand. Push the brake pads away from the rear rotor with a long thin screwdriver, or just remove the brake pads.

Spin the wheel. Is it smooth?
Grab the wheel at the 3 oclock and 9 oclock positions and try to wiggle the wheel. Any lateral play?

If the answer is no to the above your final drive is okay.

How old is the rear tire? Change the tire and the problem goes away? Your final drive is okay.

HTH
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post #3 of 13 Old Aug 17th, 2008, 7:01 pm
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Re: final drive

Sounds like tire "howl" to me. Final Drives tend to "grind" continuously (or, at least mine did)...not just in turns.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
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post #4 of 13 Old Aug 17th, 2008, 7:55 pm
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Re: final drive

Ernest,

I bought mine in april and started hearing the same thing. I did the checks that they just mentioned, and I changed my fluid twice with Mobile 1 synthetic oil. First time the fluid was dirty. Second time it was clean. It is cheap and easy. My tires have 6 k on them and they are cupping. This is causing a distinctive howling noise. I can also feel it in the pegs. Hope this helps.

Dale
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post #5 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 9:21 am
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Re: final drive

I'm an oil change behind you there, Dale. Felt a similar rumble, as Ernest described. Drained FD 3000 miles ago, and oil was quite clean. New Mobile 1 synthetic in. Yesterday, drained FD and oil was quite dark. Hoping it will come out cleaner next time.

And what about 'play' on the rear wheel? OEM maintenance book does not say what to do if you do find play there. And if you do find a little play, how much is acceptable?

...Bob
2001 K1200LT der LadungsTräger
1978 GL1000
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post #6 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 11:05 am
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Re: final drive

If you've had a rear drive failure, please participate in our rear drive survey at: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/survey.php?do=take&sid=28


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post #7 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 11:25 am
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Re: final drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Put the bike on the centerstand. Push the brake pads away from the rear rotor with a long thin screwdriver, or just remove the brake pads.

Spin the wheel. Is it smooth?
Grab the wheel at the 3 oclock and 9 oclock positions and try to wiggle the wheel. Any lateral play?

If the answer is no to the above your final drive is okay.

How old is the rear tire? Change the tire and the problem goes away? Your final drive is okay.

HTH
Hey, Curtis - question for ya, since you've rebuilt a gazillion final drive hiccups.

When ole Toad spit out two final drive bearings (~60K and 110K), I never felt any play/wobble using the 3 and 9 shake-it routine. I did have the click-a-click-a-click sound while rotating the wheel on the 60K failure, and the grinding sound on the 110K failure. In both cases, the ball bearing retainer/keeper strips had broken at one or more spot weld places, and let a couple of the bearing/s have free roll in the race. Soooo - my question is, what happens that allows the wheel rim to have some wiggle play?

That's it - just tryin' to git my head around the scenario that goes on before the seal is fractured and lets the oil out!! Thanks in advance, Curtis. And best regards on your final drive rebuild gig at CCR. Hope you git it video'd for archival reference. Safe trip out there and back, Curtis - enjoy the camaraderie and the 'vacation'!!!
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post #8 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 8:55 pm
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Re: final drive

Hi Dick,
That is a really good question. Replying here from Wolf Point, Montana... enroute to CCR.

Honestly, I don't know when or if axial play shows up during an impending fnal drive failure. I suspect that roughness during wheel rotation is a more likey early indicator. But, in some of the failed bearings I have inspected, there is a wallowing out of the bearing races which would allow for some lateral play resulting in a "wiggle" in the wheel. Whether or not this actually can be detected is speculative on my part. All of the failed bearing I have seen have severe spalling of the balls which would result in a roughness that could be felt during wheel rotation. This is why I suggest getting the brake pads out of the way of the rotor to allow for sensing of wheel rotation smoothness.

Based on the reports of those who have had drive failures, there are very few indications of impending failure. I think you'd have to be checking very frequently to detect a failure before it occurs.

You referred to "spot welds" on the retainer. I haven't seen any bearing with a welded retainer, they all have had rivets. The failed bearings I have seen have had retainers that were broken with pieces of retainer "floating" in the lube or at the drain plug magnet.

There have been lots of posts about efforts to detect impending crown wheel bearing failure. I doubt that detecting impending failure is going to be fruitful. The suggestions regarding detection mechanisms using drive temp or metal particles in the oil are interesting but I suspect are likely to result in false postives to the point of distraction.

Preemptive rebuilding of the final drive or being prepared for failure are the approaches that make the most sense to me. Not what most folks want to hear I suppose, but that's my take on it.

Thanks,
Best Regards,







Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
Hey, Curtis - question for ya, since you've rebuilt a gazillion final drive hiccups.

When ole Toad spit out two final drive bearings (~60K and 110K), I never felt any play/wobble using the 3 and 9 shake-it routine. I did have the click-a-click-a-click sound while rotating the wheel on the 60K failure, and the grinding sound on the 110K failure. In both cases, the ball bearing retainer/keeper strips had broken at one or more spot weld places, and let a couple of the bearing/s have free roll in the race. Soooo - my question is, what happens that allows the wheel rim to have some wiggle play?

That's it - just tryin' to git my head around the scenario that goes on before the seal is fractured and lets the oil out!! Thanks in advance, Curtis. And best regards on your final drive rebuild gig at CCR. Hope you git it video'd for archival reference. Safe trip out there and back, Curtis - enjoy the camaraderie and the 'vacation'!!!
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post #9 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 10:13 pm
 
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Re: final drive

I have been racking my brain to figure out a way to monitor those final drives...I think I have found the answer!!

A remote temperature probe with a digital display would work great....

What do you think boys??

http://www.buyzillion.com/B00004SZ10...ermometer.html
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post #10 of 13 Old Aug 18th, 2008, 11:04 pm
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Re: final drive

Which rear end is that supposed to monitor? The bike's or the rider's? Just noticed it has 2 probes, so I guess it would be for both. Some would argue that it would be as comfortable as the LT's stock seat.

Does excessive heat build-up always accompany a failure? And how would that heat from an impending failure differ from the heat from a hard day's riding?

...Bob
2001 K1200LT der LadungsTräger
1978 GL1000
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post #11 of 13 Old Aug 19th, 2008, 9:07 am
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Re: final drive

I don't think a failing ball bearing (one that is spalling and seriously eating the debris) will generate much extra heat until things have really shelled out.

If it did however, a common peak reading inside-outside digital thermometer for under $10 would do the trick. Too bad though it won't work.

It is much more likely for a spalled bearing to make a grinding or thumping noise that could be detected on a smooth road at moderate speed. This would indicate that spalling has happened. Maybe it would even make detectable noise free running on the center stand. That way the noise of an irregular tire tread could be eliminated.
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post #12 of 13 Old Aug 19th, 2008, 9:22 am
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Re: final drive

Thanks for the reply, Curtis. Appreciate an *insider's* insight!!

I goofed on the 'spot weld' thang - they are using rivets, as you said, for the ball retainer ring. They must believe that rivets are better for that application than spot welds?

Thanks again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Hi Dick,
That is a really good question. Replying here from Wolf Point, Montana... enroute to CCR.

Honestly, I don't know when or if axial play shows up during an impending fnal drive failure. I suspect that roughness during wheel rotation is a more likey early indicator. But, in some of the failed bearings I have inspected, there is a wallowing out of the bearing races which would allow for some lateral play resulting in a "wiggle" in the wheel. Whether or not this actually can be detected is speculative on my part. All of the failed bearing I have seen have severe spalling of the balls which would result in a roughness that could be felt during wheel rotation. This is why I suggest getting the brake pads out of the way of the rotor to allow for sensing of wheel rotation smoothness.

Based on the reports of those who have had drive failures, there are very few indications of impending failure. I think you'd have to be checking very frequently to detect a failure before it occurs.

You referred to "spot welds" on the retainer. I haven't seen any bearing with a welded retainer, they all have had rivets. The failed bearings I have seen have had retainers that were broken with pieces of retainer "floating" in the lube or at the drain plug magnet.

There have been lots of posts about efforts to detect impending crown wheel bearing failure. I doubt that detecting impending failure is going to be fruitful. The suggestions regarding detection mechanisms using drive temp or metal particles in the oil are interesting but I suspect are likely to result in false postives to the point of distraction.

Preemptive rebuilding of the final drive or being prepared for failure are the approaches that make the most sense to me. Not what most folks want to hear I suppose, but that's my take on it.

Thanks,
Best Regards,
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post #13 of 13 Old Aug 19th, 2008, 9:11 pm
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Re: final drive

It is the tires.
Has happened to me several times.
As the tires wear, they "Cup" on the outside and when the bike leans left or right you get that noise.
CHange the tires and it will go away.
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