What to do with a "used" FD - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 1:20 pm Thread Starter
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What to do with a "used" FD

I had a request for the old FD that failed on my '99LT at the end of last summer. The requestor never came around to actually sending out a FedEx shipping label, so it still sits in the garage.
Does anyone else want this massive amount of hardware? It also includes the brake rotor and fried Brembo. I have a picture of it all. If anyone just wants a few of the parts, let me know. I was told with all the metal shavings, the gear teeth are suspect problems for the long haul.
I really don't want to toss it in the landfill, but it all must go.

Have fun,
Jer

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post #2 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 3:22 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Jer.. should have some 'recycle' value down at your local recycle joint.. aluminum and other metals pulling high $$ ....

Or, make a clock and install it so the hands run backward ...

...............
J.M.J...
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post #3 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 4:26 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

If you are "throwing it away" I'll buy it for cost of shipping and a few bucks for your trouble. I'll rebuild it in my leisure and have it as a spare for the group. I have always thought the group should have a spare drive ready for express shipment in case someone gets stranded in the boondocks far from a BMW dealership.
I sent you a PM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt
I had a request for the old FD that failed on my '99LT at the end of last summer. The requestor never came around to actually sending out a FedEx shipping label, so it still sits in the garage.
Does anyone else want this massive amount of hardware? It also includes the brake rotor and fried Brembo. I have a picture of it all. If anyone just wants a few of the parts, let me know. I was told with all the metal shavings, the gear teeth are suspect problems for the long haul.
I really don't want to toss it in the landfill, but it all must go.

Have fun,
Jer

Last edited by CharlieVT; Apr 14th, 2008 at 4:44 pm.
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post #4 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 5:42 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

I would be interested in seeing some pics, if you care to post. Feel free to e-mail directly if you like. Thanks!

[email protected]
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post #5 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 5:52 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
If you are "throwing it away" I'll buy it for cost of shipping and a few bucks for your trouble. I'll rebuild it in my leisure and have it as a spare for the group. I have always thought the group should have a spare drive ready for express shipment in case someone gets stranded in the boondocks far from a BMW dealership.
I sent you a PM.
That is an excellent idea. Maybe there should be a spare rebuilt one in every country/state for emergency purposes.

I have one that I am planning to rebuild and have packed up (with all required tools for fitting) as an emergency if my new one fails.
There is no reason why someone else can not benefit from this as well.

Sounds like the start of a plan

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post #6 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 5:58 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
That is an excellent idea. Maybe there should be a spare rebuilt one in every country/state for emergency purposes.

I have one that I am planning to rebuild and have packed up (with all required tools for fitting) as an emergency if my new one fails.
There is no reason why someone else can not benefit from this as well.

Sounds like the start of a plan
Having the drive ready to ship with tools for change out is a great idea! I have David S's cut-out socket to put in the box. A new set of pivot bearings would be good too (they would add nothing to cost of shipping).
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post #7 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 6:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by yechave
I would be interested in seeing some pics, if you care to post. Feel free to e-mail directly if you like. Thanks!

[email protected]
Here's what I have:

There is a request pending. If they don't want it, it goes to CharlieVT.
It looks like the box weighs ~20 lbs. That's using the bath room scale with (me + box) - me.

Jer

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post #8 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 6:49 pm
 
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

CharlieVT

Very good idea.

and as cookie said, maybe one in every country/continent and I`d also like a current list with posible contact information if one is going to be in the "neightbourhood".

This could also be good for a trailer to houl the bike on in case something happens.
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post #9 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 8:02 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

I had first dibs on this one. I told Jers99lt to let it go to CharlieVT if he is going to try to rebuild it. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it,maybe wall art,maybe paperweight. I already have 2 spares. 1 is '99-01,1 is '02 on. These are available to members that need them.

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post #10 of 24 Old Apr 14th, 2008, 8:13 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMartin
I had first dibs on this one. I told Jers99lt to let it go to CharlieVT if he is going to try to rebuild it. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it,maybe wall art,maybe paperweight. I already have 2 spares. 1 is '99-01,1 is '02 on. These are available to members that need them.

dan
You guys are quite awesome. I'm really glad I put the FD out here. The effort from you guys is much more than I ever expected.

Thanks, Dan. I'm sure you've heard that before.

I'll be PMing CharlieVT for shipping location.

What a forum!

Jer

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post #11 of 24 Old Apr 15th, 2008, 5:58 am
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Having the drive ready to ship with tools for change out is a great idea! I have David S's cut-out socket to put in the box. A new set of pivot bearings would be good too (they would add nothing to cost of shipping).
Pivots yep.
So the FD 'back on the road' kits contents so far;

Rebuild FD
Torq wrench
Pivots
Cut out tool

What size wrenches for the job?

(this is giving me incentive to get on with researching rebuilding my spare now)

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post #12 of 24 Old Apr 15th, 2008, 6:40 am
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Pivots yep.
So the FD 'back on the road' kits contents so far;

Rebuild FD
Torq wrench
Pivots
Cut out tool

What size wrenches for the job?.

(this is giving me incentive to get on with researching rebuilding my spare now)
12mm Hex/allen key
15 mil and 16 mil spanners to undo lower trailing arm
8 mm Hex/Allen key to remove brake caliper
cable tie to hang up caliper

Allen or Torx to undo the 2 screws that hold the disc on (should be heated as they have Loctite)

Loctite, tin of brake cleaner



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post #13 of 24 Old Apr 15th, 2008, 10:15 am
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Oh dear - and a breaker bar. That's ganna make the parcel a bit bigger!

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post #14 of 24 Old Apr 15th, 2008, 6:03 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

You could always clean it up and mount it on a 2x4 so you can use it (baseball bat-style) as an attention getter if you ever meet the doofus who designed it, or the BMW doofi who maintain that there is no problem with the final drives on BMW motorcycles.

Inside my 60 year old body is a 35 year old brain wondering what the hell happened.
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post #15 of 24 Old Apr 21st, 2008, 6:45 pm
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Question Final Drive arrived

Thanks Jerry, the final drive arrived today and I just finished removing the bearing and shims.
Interesting, there were two shims behind the crown wheel bearing.

It was a 19 ball bearing with severe spalling of the balls and both races.

Jerry, what do you know of the history of this final drive? Did you buy the bike new off the showroom floor, or is there a prior owner and unkown history?

The interesting thing is that the pre-load shims show signs of damage. At first I thought that the outer race of the crown wheel bearing might have spun in the housing cover, but there is no indication of a spun bearing on either the bearing itself or on the bearing seat in the housing cover.

?? I have a couple of theories as to how the shims got damaged, but I wonder what ideas you folks might have. ??

Bevel gear, taper roller bearing, etc. all look fine. Lots of metal particles, metal "mud", and obviously blown out crown wheel bearing with fractured cage, spalled bearings and races were expected. Two pre-load shims with indentations and scoring were a suprise.

Replacement bearing and seal are on their way from Chicago BMW. I have a couple of spare shims from previous rebuild, but I may need to order another depending on measurements when the new bearing gets here. I would not reuse the damaged shims from this drive; in addition to the obvious damage to them they don't "mic" as having uniform thickness.
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post #16 of 24 Old Apr 21st, 2008, 7:04 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Charlie - how badly busted up was the cage? Do you think it failed first, or after the races spalled out?
THX NRP
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post #17 of 24 Old Apr 21st, 2008, 7:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Final Drive arrived

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieVT
Jerry, what do you know of the history of this final drive? Did you buy the bike new off the showroom floor, or is there a prior owner and unkown history?
Unfortunately, it's the later case. I am most likely the second owner. I believe it sat for at least a year before I got it. But, that's about all the history I know. First a cylindrical sound came out of the rear like the brakes were rubbing. The sound turned to loud banging that increased with speed. Then she blew out all her fluid on the road. Rode 25mi. after the banging started. Got me home.

HTH,
Jer

(Thanks for your diagnosis)

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post #18 of 24 Old Apr 21st, 2008, 7:14 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen
Charlie - how badly busted up was the cage? Do you think it failed first, or after the races spalled out?
THX NRP
Cage was severely broken. Spalling on balls and races was severe. I am not prepared to speculate which came first.
You can see the broken cage and unequal distribution of balls in this photo taken by Jerry before he shipped it to me:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...84098#poststop
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post #19 of 24 Old Apr 21st, 2008, 7:22 pm
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Re: Final Drive arrived

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt
Unfortunately, it's the later case. I am most likely the second owner. I believe it sat for at least a year before I got it. But, that's about all the history I know. First a cylindrical sound came out of the rear like the brakes were rubbing. The sound turned to loud banging that increased with speed. Then she blew out all her fluid on the road. Rode 25mi. after the banging started. Got me home.
HTH,
Jer
(Thanks for your diagnosis)
Thanks for the info Jer. The fact that you rode 25mi after it puked oil helps me make sense of it. That helps me explain the shim condition. I think the outer race moved in its seat and spun slowly, ground up metal parts from the failed bearing got in between the shims, and the shims spun a little like a couple of old grindstones in a gristmill, but trying to grind up material made of pulverized ball bearings.
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post #20 of 24 Old Apr 22nd, 2008, 6:32 pm
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Rebuilding Final Drive

Crown wheel bearing arrived from Chicago BMW in just a few days, they must have had one in stock.

Credits to Dman who developed the technique I am using.

To avoid any pressure on the bearing balls and races during assembly, I heated the bearing in the oven (I used 350 degrees F) and chilled the crown wheel in the freezer. The bearing dropped onto the crown wheel without any pressure at all, gravity does it. I just made sure the bearing was fully seated on the crown wheel before the temps started to equalize. (Improper assembly technique where excess pressure is applied to the balls and races causing galling is one theory as to why these bearings are failing, so treating the bearing kindly during assembly was important to me.)

(Note: I am doing nothing to check crown wheel gear to pinion gear backlash. I inspected the gear teeth, taper roller bearing, checked the input pinion shaft for smooth rotation and decided all was okay. My procedure described here is only about installing a replacement crown wheel bearing and measuring for proper pre-load shimming.)

Another theory of final drive failure causation is improper preload, so I wanted to be very careful in measuring for preload shim thickness.

With the crown wheel/crown wheel bearing assembly placed into the drive housing, I heated the housing cover in the oven to about 170F. (BMW manual says 140F but my wife's oven doesn't set that low ). The heated cover was quickly bolted in place on the drive housing. A dial micrometer set up. Two bolts placed into the holes in the crown wheel where the brake rotor normally bolts on. These are used to pull the crown wheel assembly up. The amount of movement is the amount of shim distance without pre-load added. NOTE: If the drive cover is too hot the crown wheel assembly moves easily and the shim distance measured will be GREATER than measured after the drive cover is cooler. POINT BEING: TEMP DIFFERENTIAL OF THE COVER DOES ALTER THE MEASURED SHIM DISTANCE. If you use a heat gun to heat the cover and have no ability to measure the temp you could make it too hot, the assembly will move up and down easily and the shim distance measured will be inaccurately large.

I experimented with a very hot cover (350F) and as the cover cooled, it became necessary to use increased force to pull the crown wheel assembly up (I used a couple of tire irons) and firm pressure was required to push the assembly back down. On this particular final drive, as the temp cooled the shim distance became a very repeatable 0.011 inch (0.28mm).

I used a heat gun to reheat the drive cover for easy removal and repeated the process several times. I removed and reinstalled the cover three times and made multiple measurements each time. As the cover cools, moving the crown wheel assembly up and down becomes increasingly difficult, but as it does, the measurements stabilize and become very consistent.

BMW Service manual states pre-load is 0.05-0.10mm. My observed shim space without preload was 0.28mm. Adding preload gives a shim range of 0.33-0.38mm.

Shims (spacer rings) are available from 0.10mm to 1.70mm thickness at 0.10 intervals, except there is one shim that is 0.15mm thick. That explains why two shims were in this drive! Rather than having twice as many shims available, BMW expects you to use a combination of shims if you want multiple of 0.05mm. So if you want a 0.35mm shim, you need to use a 0.20mm + a 0.15mm shim.

My plan is to complete the rebuild of this drive and then put it in a shipping box with tools ready to go. At some point when I am putting on a new rear tire, I'll change out my final drive and put a few thousand on this one just to "break it in". (BTW the final drive on my bike was rebuilt by me about 30K miles ago as a preemptive measure and it is going strong.)

Hope this helps someone else who is interested in rebuilding their drive.

Also: I'd like to compare this technique with that used by BMW using their special tool. I think I could make such a tool from trashed final drive cover. Anyone have a really trashed final drive cover they want to part with?
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Last edited by CharlieVT; Apr 22nd, 2008 at 6:39 pm.
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post #21 of 24 Old Apr 22nd, 2008, 6:38 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by c00k1e
Pivots yep.
So the FD 'back on the road' kits contents so far;

Rebuild FD
Torq wrench
Pivots
Cut out tool

What size wrenches for the job?

(this is giving me incentive to get on with researching rebuilding my spare now)
I'm getting ready to swap mine out this weekend. What is a "cut out tool"?

I'll be going over my manual later this evening. Is there anything special that I'll need? Any gaskets/stuff to buy from the dealer? any special words of wisdom or things to look out for?

Sorry, stuck at work and haven't pulled the manual yet - just got the FD, a new windshield, ordered the rear disc, and new pads all around. and tires.

On top of this...got to finish remodelling the bathroom before leaving in a couple of weeks for a tour of the Seattle/Vancouver/Victoria area.

at least I'm not bored. Thank you in advance.
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post #22 of 24 Old Apr 22nd, 2008, 6:53 pm
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckelew
I'm getting ready to swap mine out this weekend. What is a "cut out tool"?
There is a special tool that allows torquing the locknut of the pivot bolt while holding the pivot bolt with a hex wrench to keep it from turning.
It is a BMW special tool but there have been other sources.
It is basically a deep well socket with the wall partly cut out to allow the hex wrench to get at the pivot bolt.
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post #23 of 24 Old Dec 9th, 2011, 7:46 am
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Hello People, I just joined this site. I also just picked up "new to me" 2005 K1200LT. The ride home was great. I live about 135miles from where I bought it.

I have read this entire post about the final drive. I see a lot of information on how to change it and an out pouring of assistance if any one has a failure on the road. My questions are why does it fail? What would a person do to repair it if it does fail so you can extend the service factor of the unit?. The thought idea of shaft drive was to increase reliability/reduce maintenance.


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post #24 of 24 Old Dec 9th, 2011, 10:31 am
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Re: What to do with a "used" FD

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsx1300r
Hello People, I just joined this site. I also just picked up "new to me" 2005 K1200LT. The ride home was great. I live about 135miles from where I bought it.

I have read this entire post about the final drive. I see a lot of information on how to change it and an out pouring of assistance if any one has a failure on the road. My questions are why does it fail? What would a person do to repair it if it does fail so you can extend the service factor of the unit?. The thought idea of shaft drive was to increase reliability/reduce maintenance.
Congrats on your "new" 05 KLT. Great bike, you'll be happy. It is a great bike.

You've resurected an old message thread here. Lot's of info has come to us since this thread.

Your 05 is past the "plume" crownwheel bearing failures known to earlier models but can still occur with the 05. Also, the 05 production period also has a known problem with the tapered roller bearing which when caught early can be repaired.
Reasons for failure of the crown wheel bearing is most likely improper (excessive) preload shimming. Reason for failure of the tapered roller bearing is improper machining (inadequate press fit of the tapered roller bearing on its seat).

Little can be done to increase the reliability short of preemptive rebuild. Early signs of a problem can be read about here:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63109

The drive shaft does reduce maintenace wrt a chain drive bike but unfortuately the final drive has proven to be an Achilles Heel for many BMW models including the K1200LT.

HTH
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