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post #1 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 7:34 pm Thread Starter
 
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BMW Blues

Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.

Last edited by Coot; Apr 6th, 2008 at 7:44 pm.
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post #2 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 9:21 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coot
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
How about this:

Take the bike to Lone Star BMW in Austin, have them install the latest style bearings and you should be good to go for quite a while. I, or one of the other Houston folks here might even volunteer a ride back. Or, you are welcome to use my trailer. Also, would not mess around with any of the miracle lubricants but use the BMW or a similar brand gear oil and just go and ride...

Wolfgang

K1200LT 1999 Champaign SOLD
R1100RS 1994 Teal SOLD
R1150RT 2003 Blue (Sold)
R1100RT 1997 Blue


Pest, Budapest Hungary

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."
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post #3 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 10:05 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

It sounds to me like you just worry too much about the final drive problem. I don't worry about it all. Neither on my '96 RT or my '06 LT. If it happens, then I will take care of it. But until it happens, or until there is any definitive evidice of it happening (like metal flakes in the FD fluid), it's not a concern.

Most of the failure issues I see on this board are blown way out of proportion. I understand that a small group of people have had problems. And in some instances they have not been taken care of the way they feel the problem should have been. So I understand their animosity and fear of potential future failures.

My view on that is simple. If you worry that much about it, then sell it and buy what makes you happy.

2006 Magnesium Black Metallic K1200LT (sold - sigh)
1996 Sinus (aka Cirrus) Blue Metallic R1100RT
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post #4 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 10:09 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Sounds to me like it really doesn't matter what is done to it for you. Maybe you should just get rid of it now if you feel that bad about it and buy a wing or something else..

It doesn't seem to me like you have anything to complain about. You have received good service from your bike and have had no problems.. If you are worried about it to the point that you won't ride it the way it was intended to be ridden, don't keep it.

One thing though, please don't come to the forum and wine about something you have nothing to wine about... I don't quite understand what you hope to accomplish by doing this. Maybe you can convince us all to sell ours also... Nahhh.. Don't think so. I love mine and I will keep it.

I have never had a problem with the final drive, will continue to check the fluid and replace it at 3K intervals and address it if it becomes a problem.
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post #5 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 10:41 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Some of us worry about the final drive failing and some don't. Hey Coot, I won't beat up on you. The final drive has failed twice on my 1999, leaving me stranded on long trips that I waited and planned for a couple years in advance. And I too changed the oil every 3K religiously. My 1984 Yamaha Venture still has it's original FD after 24 years and over 120K miles. I don't think discussion on it here is overblown in my opinion. Many owners are frustrated with this problem. They love the bikes (I love mine), but it's a shame that BMW ignores the problem and more importantly, the owners. I do like just about everything else about the bike and I do enjoy riding it, but I also do worry about it failing again. My dad who is 68 yrs old and still riding wants to take a cross country trip this season with my brother and I. It will likely be his last. In all honesty, I don't want to take the chance of riding the BMW and spoiling the trip. My local dealer even says that everything looks great with the drive, but it could still fail. The dealer has little confidence in it either. So ease up on Coot I think.
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post #6 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 11:34 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I certainly cannot argue against fear of the unknown, but this statement bothers me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy
My local dealer even says that everything looks great with the drive, but it could still fail. The dealer has little confidence in it either.
I think it would be irrational to look at a rear drive and state unequivocally that it will not fail, but I am very surprised that your dealer "has little confidence in it either". If they really feel that way, perhaps the bearing should be replaced. Dealers know the reality of the failure rate and know that in all reality it is if and not when for rear drive failures. The dealer I use has a fairly good frame of reference within the bikes they have sold. While there have been some failures, it has been a fairly small number. The last time we spoke about it, they have never seen a second failure in any bearing they have replaced.

I have ridden for 100,000 miles on three LTs, with only one roadside failure - a delaminated tire leaving me stuck in eastern Colorado. Sitting at a picnic table for 8 hours, waiting for one of my employees to run a tire out to us, gave Michelle and me a chance to just sit and talk, without any distraction. We worked out some plans for change in our household and in my business that have made a real difference in our lives. It was a really great afternoon.

My GS suffered ring antenna failure last summer in the Yukon Territory, leaving me bikeless for 7 days. I knew before I left that there were a fair number of failures of these devices on GS models recently, but I really couldn't come up with any proactive course of action that would mitigate that risk. While I was initially disappointed that I experienced that failure, there were so many positive things that I experienced due to the change in my plans, I am actually glad it happened. Every ride we go out on is an adventure into the unknown and my goal is to turn everything that we encounter on the adventure into a new opportunity. For Michelle and me, 'the journey is the destination' rings very true.

I will say that if worrying about a failure that might happen dominated my thoughts, I would probably change rides.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
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post #7 of 31 Old Apr 6th, 2008, 11:40 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I'm not trying to bash on Coot, but I think that worring about something you can't control is not the right thing to do. Worry about the things you can change and forget about what you can't. Stress kills. Beleive me ... I know. I'm only 47 and have had a minor (thankfully) heart attack, quad heart bypass, kidney failure, kidny transplant, and a lens replacement. Stress is not a good idea. Worring about stuff liek this is not a good idea either.

If Coot truthfully lacks confidence in his motorcycle then he should sell it and move on to something that inspires him. Plain and simple. It's better to stop worring about it and move on to something that will give him hours/days/weeks/months/years of enjoyment.

I personally do not worry about any of these types of things. If it happens, I deal with it and move on. But I am also a happy person. Every day. It takes a lot to really bring me down.

2006 Magnesium Black Metallic K1200LT (sold - sigh)
1996 Sinus (aka Cirrus) Blue Metallic R1100RT
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post #8 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 12:12 am
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles
I'm not trying to bash on Coot, but I think that worring about something you can't control is not the right thing to do. Worry about the things you can change and forget about what you can't. Stress kills. Beleive me ... I know. I'm only 47 and have had a minor (thankfully) heart attack, quad heart bypass, kidney failure, kidny transplant, and a lens replacement. Stress is not a good idea. Worring about stuff liek this is not a good idea either.

If Coot truthfully lacks confidence in his motorcycle then he should sell it and move on to something that inspires him. Plain and simple. It's better to stop worring about it and move on to something that will give him hours/days/weeks/months/years of enjoyment.

I personally do not worry about any of these types of things. If it happens, I deal with it and move on. But I am also a happy person. Every day. It takes a lot to really bring me down.
Exactly! Life's too short. The only reason to change bikes is simply 'cuz you want something different. I bought my LT for "practical" reasons (two-up riding) but I can't think of anything more impractical than touring on a motorcycle. But that's what makes it fun and an adventure, you think more about your destinations and the roads you want to take. MC road trips are by far the most memorable (Although I did drive from Denver to Galveston in a 1974 VW Thing once. I won't soon forget that!). Mechanical failure is just one more adventurous aspect. As long as it doesn't leave you in a dangerous situation, take it in stride.

If you want reliability, buy a Toyota or Honda car.

-----------------------------------------

The word motorcycle is a verb.

2005 K1200LT "Rolf"
2007 Moto Guzzi Norge
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post #9 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 1:02 am
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I certainly cannot argue against fear of the unknown, but this statement bothers me:I think it would be irrational to look at a rear drive and state unequivocally that it will not fail, but I am very surprised that your dealer "has little confidence in it either". If they really feel that way, perhaps the bearing should be replaced. Dealers know the reality of the failure rate and know that in all reality it is if and not when for rear drive failures. The dealer I use has a fairly good frame of reference within the bikes they have sold. While there have been some failures, it has been a fairly small number. The last time we spoke about it, they have never seen a second failure in any bearing they have replaced.

I have ridden for 100,000 miles on three LTs, with only one roadside failure - a delaminated tire leaving me stuck in eastern Colorado. Sitting at a picnic table for 8 hours, waiting for one of my employees to run a tire out to us, gave Michelle and me a chance to just sit and talk, without any distraction. We worked out some plans for change in our household and in my business that have made a real difference in our lives. It was a really great afternoon.

My GS suffered ring antenna failure last summer in the Yukon Territory, leaving me bikeless for 7 days. I knew before I left that there were a fair number of failures of these devices on GS models recently, but I really couldn't come up with any proactive course of action that would mitigate that risk. While I was initially disappointed that I experienced that failure, there were so many positive things that I experienced due to the change in my plans, I am actually glad it happened. Every ride we go out on is an adventure into the unknown and my goal is to turn everything that we encounter on the adventure into a new opportunity. For Michelle and me, 'the journey is the destination' rings very true.

I will say that if worrying about a failure that might happen dominated my thoughts, I would probably change rides.
I'm with Randy, after owning BMW's for over 36 years I've had very few roadside issues that couldn't be dealt with on the spot. If my drive fails, it fails. I'm not too concerned. Now I have to admit, if that stupid antenna ring on my RT goes bad and the EWS security system leaves me stranded, I will be pissed that a security device I can't bypass messed up my ride plans but I'm not going to lose sleep worrying about it. As Randy said, the failure may lead to an adventure you would have otherwise missed. When my charging system failed on my R100 GSPD I ended up having a great day in Regina, Canada. I had no idea what a great city Regina is and how much history is there. Had the bike not had issues I would have flown past without so much as a fuel stop. I actually am glad it happened.

Last edited by mjordans2000; Apr 7th, 2008 at 1:08 am.
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post #10 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 8:10 am
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Re: BMW Blues

I just moved from a Goldwing. I loved the 'Wings and never had a problem. But, if you read the forums, the frames crack, they overheat, the rear drives wear out, the front end wobbles, the forks sag, the anti-dive circuit in the left fork siezes and the fork gets rigid, the rear shock sucks, the seat sucks, the tires cup, the cruise control needs fixing, the speedometer is wrong, the alternator vibrates, the wheels are uncoated and corrode, etc. etc. etc.

We drive cars all the time and risk flat tires, brakes failing, cracked windshields, etc.

We get up in the morning and risk heart attacks, car accidents, storms, violence, etc.

Life is dangerous!

After owning three of them, I would never say don't get a 'wing, but, If you like your LT, do preventative repairs to the rear drive, and it will cost you thousands less than moving to a 'Wing.

Joe Van Orsdol
Zimmerman Mn
'02 K1200LT
'94 K75S for sale
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post #11 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 5:59 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the LT. I owned 3 GW's previously myself and I totally prefer the LT over them all. Yet I was told by a dealer tech that the bearing races he's seen on many failed final drives fell apart for reasons they could not determine. Personally speaking, I feel that two failures in my 68k miles is too many. It's super that many owners have not had to experience these failures on the road. But some of us have and I, for one, would appreciate knowing what goes awry with the bearing so that I can ride and enjoy the LT even more. Now, wouldn't anyone here want to know more if this had been your experience? Be honest, of course you would. But unless there is discussion on the failures, how else can we learn about them? And maybe it seems like a dead horse to most. But to others it's not. I signed on to the BMW community a year ago and before that I didn't even know there were other failures. Sure, things break all the time. Bikes break down. But more times than not you can relate the cause to something. In the case of the final drive, this doesn't seem to be the case. For many this may seem like whining. To me I'm just trying to figure out why the drive breaks like it does when I don't think that it should. I've been riding nearly 30 years and have owned 50 or more bikes and the only bike that has ever left me on the side of the road with a mechanical problem I couldn't fix is the LT. If yours had failed twice, wouldn't you want to know more? If I didn't like the bike, I wouldn't put up with it and would just get another. But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.
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post #12 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 7:50 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy
But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.
There is the vexing problem. There have been many theories as to why the bearings are failing, but we are not sure which ones to embrace. I'm not even certain BMW knows why they are failing. From all the information shared within this community as well as on and off the record conversations with several employees in various positions within BMW Motorrad USA, I really think it boils down to one of two issues 1) inferior bearings, manufactured below the standards BMW dictated to their suppliers -or- 2) improper assembly techniques at the factory.
While I am inclined to believe it is the bearing itself, there has been some evidence presented by analysis of the bearings after the failure that would indicate some damage to the races during assembly or shipping. David Shealy had a bearing analyzed and found evidence of spalling which could come as a result of damage to the races. Many of the failed bearings, caught in the early stages have had the ball cages disintegrate. This, as I understand it, can be another result of spalling.

I have watched three dealers repair final drive assemblies, two of them simply pressed new bearings into place and reassembled the drives. I think these repairs are doomed to fail again. The third dealer used temperature differentials to allow the bearings to simply slide into place, both on the hub and into the housings. They also checked for and adjusted as needed - proper pinion gear contact, backlash and taper roller bearing preload during assembly. These bearings will probably last.

The long and the short of it is that there are a lot of factors that could contribute to the failure of these bearings as well as the subsequent failure of a replacement. My 2002 LT got the new 17-ball bearing (new at the time, but some replacements are now 19-ball and from a different vendor), in late 2003 or early 2004 as a preemptive measure. I was not concerned about the bearing in mine, but wanted it replaced for anecdotal reasons - I was urged to do that by my dealer. I put an additional 20,000 miles on that bike before trading it. The guy that purchased it from my dealer now has put an additional 70,000 miles on it without a bearing failure. My 20,000 were mostly 2-up with a trailer - his have been mostly 2-up. While that single case means nothing by itself, it does prove to me that the proper installation technique on a replacement bearing might be a factor in how long it lasts.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

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post #13 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 8:03 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's.



It amazes me that people expect a manufacturer with a US market share under 2% to have a dealer network of one that has over 45% of the US market.

Matt
95 Honda Magna (sold)
97 R1100RT (sold)
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01 Ducati S4 Monster "LittleOne"
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post #14 of 31 Old Apr 7th, 2008, 8:34 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I picked a BMW motorcycle to be different from the rest of "The Sheep". If I wanted to be "Just Like All The Rest" I would have chosen differently. I've had Honda, Suzuki, & Yamaha's in the past they were all good bikes but..... The LT Is the best of all of them. Yes It has it's flaws, but what machine does not? I am also blessed with having one of the best dealers in the USA less then 10 miles from my home. When I'm on the road I don't think about breakdowns. If they happen I'll deal with them.In my opinion I have all I need to handle anything that happens on the road right here on this forum. I've heard of people loosing a read drive and have one brought to them and given help to install it . they where back on the road in no time with a great story to tell. The people here will bend over backwards to help you. I my self always have an open door and a garage to park in and or work in. So just ride what you like .....

Stevie Shreeve
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post #15 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 12:47 am
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
-------------------------------------------- My 2002 LT got the new 17-ball bearing (new at the time, but some replacements are now 19-ball and from a different vendor), in late 2003 or early 2004 as a preemptive measure. I------------------------------------.
Who is the vendor?

All I have ever seen here led me to believe that they went from the original SKF 19 ball, to FAG 17 ball, then back to the exact same SKF 19 ball bearing as previously used, same part number, C3 fit and all.

IS there actually a "new" 19 ball bearing that no one has actually dentified here?

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #16 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 9:19 am
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Re: BMW Blues

...... and with such a sparse dealer network, they never will have much of a market share.

Alex H Lindsay
Melbourne, FL
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post #17 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 9:54 am
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the LT. I owned 3 GW's previously myself and I totally prefer the LT over them all. Yet I was told by a dealer tech that the bearing races he's seen on many failed final drives fell apart for reasons they could not determine. Personally speaking, I feel that two failures in my 68k miles is too many. It's super that many owners have not had to experience these failures on the road. But some of us have and I, for one, would appreciate knowing what goes awry with the bearing so that I can ride and enjoy the LT even more. Now, wouldn't anyone here want to know more if this had been your experience? Be honest, of course you would. But unless there is discussion on the failures, how else can we learn about them? And maybe it seems like a dead horse to most. But to others it's not. I signed on to the BMW community a year ago and before that I didn't even know there were other failures. Sure, things break all the time. Bikes break down. But more times than not you can relate the cause to something. In the case of the final drive, this doesn't seem to be the case. For many this may seem like whining. To me I'm just trying to figure out why the drive breaks like it does when I don't think that it should. I've been riding nearly 30 years and have owned 50 or more bikes and the only bike that has ever left me on the side of the road with a mechanical problem I couldn't fix is the LT. If yours had failed twice, wouldn't you want to know more? If I didn't like the bike, I wouldn't put up with it and would just get another. But I do like the bike and I really want to know more about why it breaks. That's just me, though.

I hear you... If I were in your position, I would want to know as well. But, the fact of the matter is, as a consumer, the best thing that I have found that I can do is take it a day at a time, indemnify myself against potential loss through an extended warranty and enjoy the machine.

I haven't had the final drive problem, but I have had other serious problems such as a rear main seal and other seals going bad which were costly repairs. I had an extended warranty that paid for it.

If you like the bike as you say, you must develop an ownership strategy that protects you from a negative outcome and then enjoy the bike. Since we don't know for sure the cause, BMW hasn't indicated that they have either, all we can do is just that.

Moving forward, here is my strategy with my '03:

1) I purchased the bike with very low mileage in early '05 with warranty left on it.

2) Purchased an all inclusive extended warranty to address potential problems. This was a 6 year policy that will expire 1/09 ..

3) I will renegotiate for the continuation of the policy. If I can not do that for an acceptable cost, I will trade in or sell the machine. At that time, I will either purchase another one and repeat the same strategy, or purchase another bike and follow that same protocol of ownership.

So far, the bike has had 2500.00 worth of repair work done in 33K miles in 1 minor repair and 2 more major repairs. My exposure has been 150.00 in deductables and 700.00 in the initial outlay of the warranty.

I have only been stranded for a short time once on a long trip due to my own stupidity. That was battery related. But I was able to resolve the problem since I had a battery tender with me.

I understand your longterm history of riding, but in reality, it really comes down to risk and the economics of owning the machine. If you can accept that risk, knowing what to expect from the manufacturer and the joy outways that risk to you, then go with it. If not, get rid of it and find another.

I wouldn't expect that much more from BMW on this issue for the following reasons:

1) They are loosing money in the US due to the horrible exchange rate with the Euro. This I believe accounts for the trouble that the US dealers are having dealing with them and profitiing.

2) We are a small market for them compared to just about everywhere else. And as Americans as a whole, we really have come to expect far better treatment from our vendors then many other cultures.

3) R&D is working on another LT -- Replacment for the existing model. This is where they are concentrating thier resources moving forward.

4) They are selling many more other models that they are concentrating their efforts on such as the GT, RT, GS (their best selling model), now the F800 series is a push changing focus of the public away from the current LT.

It all sums up to BMW not concentrating on the LT issue unless they are forced to.. It is a loosing proposition for them. That sucks for us, but, they are motiviated by what has the best bottom line for them.

Just my humble opinion.
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post #18 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 10:02 am
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by alindsay
...... and with such a sparse dealer network, they never will have much of a market share.
It's hard to argue that BMW has a small dealer network, but I think you may have the relationship backwards. No manufacturer had a large network before they sold enough motorcycles to create one, and no one ever will.
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post #19 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 1:16 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coot
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
I have just riden my new to me 2003 LT from Florida to Arizona with no problems at all. (2300 miles)

Matt Kas

13 Triumph Trophy SE Lunar Silver
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post #20 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 2:50 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Who is the vendor?

All I have ever seen here led me to believe that they went from the original SKF 19 ball, to FAG 17 ball, then back to the exact same SKF 19 ball bearing as previously used, same part number, C3 fit and all.

IS there actually a "new" 19 ball bearing that no one has actually dentified here?
I will check into it. I am only repeating what I was told by one of the Motorrad technical reps last year. Shame on me for not verifying. I will do so as soon as possible.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

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post #21 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 7:39 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I checked a new bearing I received a few weeks ago. 19 ball FAG 61917c3 Germany 129Z.B

dan
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post #22 of 31 Old Apr 8th, 2008, 9:20 pm
 
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Re: BMW Blues

Okay Coot,, what exactly is it you want someone to say??? That no your bike won't break, or yes its going to break the first time you go for a long ride....

ALL bikes break,,ALL the new tourers, sports tourers, have broken FD's overheating problems or what ever.....

IF you don't want your bike to not brake ,,DON'T ride it,simple really....

You picked a different truck than your neighbor,,different bread than your neighbor,, so now you have picked the bike you wanted.....

Stay the hell off these forums if reading is going to make you worry!!!!!!!!!!!
Come i n here and ask a question only when you think you broke something,,other than that stay away and you will be so much happier....

Fifteen odd years ago when you bought the bride a new car, did you run home very nite and ask if it broke???? Leave the LT alone and just ride it!!!!!!!!!!!..................Pete
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post #23 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 2:11 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Who is the vendor?

All I have ever seen here led me to believe that they went from the original SKF 19 ball, to FAG 17 ball, then back to the exact same SKF 19 ball bearing as previously used, same part number, C3 fit and all.

IS there actually a "new" 19 ball bearing that no one has actually identified here?
I edited my original post on April 10, 2008 as I was given some incorrect information.

The original bearing was part number 33 12 1 242 210 and was a 19-ball unit sourced from FAG . Sometime during the 2002 model run the bearing used on the assembly line was changed to a 17-ball unit sourced from SKF. Shortly after that the original part number was superseded to 33 12 1 468 899 for field replacement. This was the 17-ball sourced from SKF that was used in the new assemblies. The 33 12 1 242 210 was made to be a valid replacement number again late in 2006 or early last year and again is sourced from FAG and is a 19-ball unit. Currently either number is a valid replacement number but there are 162 of the 33 12 1 242 210 in US inventory and 4 of the 33 12 1 468 899.

Yesterday I was told that the new 19-ball units seen in production were from a different source than the original 19-ball. This is not the case. The original 19-ball units used on the 1999-2002 K1200LT were sourced from FAG, the 17-ball units were sourced from SKF. The 19-ball units now in inventory are again sourced from FAG.

Apparently Honda did the same back and forth numbering when they encountered the same kind of failures on the GL-1200. They came up with a superseded number, went to a new source and re-engineered the originally specified bearing and subsequently went back to the original part number with this re-engineered bearing from a new supplier.

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
Meet Riley

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post #24 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 2:48 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coot
Love my 2000 K1200 Lt, but BMW has no dealer network to come close to Honda's. Sorry to say but my next new bike will be a Wing. Mainly due to dealer network and reliability issues, and besides after a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, a 76 Electra Glide, an old 750 water buffalo suzuki and two Beemers it;s time for one. But that will be down the road, wife just go an 08 Toyota Prius. It's to the point I don't entertain the thought of extended long distance trips anymore due to the possibility of the rear end failing. Honda stepped up to the plate admitted they had a frame problem fixed the ones that cracked and engineered a fix in there production, BMW wont even acknowledge there is a problem. Ever notice how they take care of there automobile customers. It seems to me that if you buy one of there bikes, you deal with the bastard side of the company. I feel with the rear end issue I am riding a hand Grenade with the pin loose or already pulled. Just waiting on it to fail, after all I have been told over and over by people who I have met in person and reading it in here, it's not a matter of if it's going to fail but when it fails. I bought it new in 2000 and it has been pretty trouble free, sure the radio head and the ECM or brain was replaced while still under warranty and it looks great to be almost 8 years old. I ride it daily back and forth to work, but thats only 18 miles round trip so with the exception of two long trips, one to New Mexico and one to Memphis so the wife could see Elvis's house and a couple of trips to Corpus and back from Houston it only has about 24000 miles on it. I guess if I didn't hear so much about the rear end issue I would take more long trips, but I don't have the funds for a drive failure to far from home.
Not that it probably matters, but I use Royal Purple synthetics in the engine, transmission and rear end.
I know if it's mechanical it will break sooner or later and nobody builds a perfect motorcycle or there would be only one brand, but with the shrinking dealer network and beemers head in the sand stand on problems that they should step up to the plate and at least address and fix.
Hell put a wing rear end on it and I'd be a happy camper. Hell my 95 K1100 RS
Had 40,000 miles on it when I traded it in for my 2000 LT and my Moto Guzzi had 70,000 on it when I got rid of it and neither ever had any rear drive issues. I am just curious at what point or year all the rear end issues started to happen.
How much is a Wing? How much is a new final drive? Sounds like you really like your LT the way it is and don't "need" to replace. If the final drive fails it will probably be between 45-55K miles on the odometer. I have a 2002 with a serial number for the first half of the model year.(contains the evil bearing) The final drive failed at 48K miles while on weekend trip with the wife but within 150 miles of home. It was inconvenient but happened early on a Sunday and turned into a great experience. A fellow rider let us borrow a bike. We met some great Harley guys that offered their pick-up and ramps.(Just handed us the keys!) It was an adventure we hadn't planned on. Got a whole new final drive unit since the original innards were ground into little Bavarian meatballs. While it was off the bike I had them replace the clutch and rear main seal(one of the other "three" main LT issues). I figure we're good to go for another 100K miles or until the new LT model comes out for 2010. Our bike is accessoried and customized to our needs and we like it. It was worth the repair investment and yes, future peace of mind since we ride far and wide together all the time. We've had two Goldwings. Won't go back. I also discovered once I had started driving German cars I won't go back either. What's wrong with me?

Bob Morrow #4204
2014 K1600GTLE "Firefly" GTL 4 Two
2002 K1200LTE "Green Hornet" LT 4 Two (history)
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post #25 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 3:09 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by rglassma
4) They are selling many more other models that they are concentrating their efforts on such as the GT, RT, GS (their best selling model), now the F800 series is a push changing focus of the public away from the current LT.
Here in Germany, BMW sells more GS bikes than all other bikes by all other manufacturers combined. Where else do you think they're going to put their resources?

Heracleitus

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post #26 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 4:12 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I've accepted the fact that the dealer network is not as strong, I've accepted the fact that there is a problem with the rear drive. I've accepted the fact that the repair costs are astronomical and as a result choose to do as much of the preventative maintainance as I possibly can. What I can not accept is BMW's attitude about this documented problem. I've seen Honda step up to the Wings issues, but have yet to see BMW recognize or admit a problem. It's like traveling by air, if you don't get the service that you've paid for...........tough, that's as good as it gets. I'm on my second LT and I absolutely love it. Will I do it again.........we'll see when the time comes.

Diehly

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post #27 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 5:18 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

I guess I will had my .02$ worth. I had two wings 1500 and 1800, loved both. I always wanted a BMW, but did not have a dealer. So in 02, got a dealer, sold the wing. I loved the wing, a great motorcycle. It had it's issues too, heat and the frame. I never had an issue with either wings I owned.

I have had two LTs, a 02 and my current a 99. Had to sell the 02 to build a house and then bought the 99. The 99 has been the longest motorcycle I have ever owned. I bought it used with 15K and it has now 52K. I had one major issue and that was the shaft. Not knowing the history of the bike when I got it I do not blame the motorcycle. I took it to Alaska and back with an issue. I will continue to own BMWs. All motorcycle had some sort of an issue.

BTW with the fleet of about 18 RTPs in the last 7 years, department bikes, plus the BMW I have owned, none have ever had a FD problem

John
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post #28 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 6:01 pm Thread Starter
 
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Re: BMW Blues

Well Thanks for all the feed back, My main concern is that everywhere you seem to look you see the I am a 4%. I am on my second Beemer, the first being a K1150 RS and I just get tired of the constant reminder of a few that have had failures to remind me oh it's going to happen sooner or later. I have seen post of LT owners with over 100,000 miles and no problems. Most people who I have had the pleasure of meeting or talking to by phone are really nice people.
Heck Messenger13 or Joe even gave me his phone number and I called and talked to him before I did my HID low beam upgrade Did he have to take time out of his day to help me, no but thats just Joe and it was greatly appreciated. As for your comment or opinion rglassma "One thing though, please don't come to the forum and wine about something you have nothing to wine about... I don't quite understand what you hope to accomplish by doing this. Maybe you can convince us all to sell ours also". That was never my intent. No where do I see this as being your forum, and all comments good or bad are welcome. It is just a concern of mine and I consider myself lucky to be a 96%. Sure I have had a couple of problems like a bad radio head and a bad ECM brain box, both were taken care of under warranty.
I will hopefully have the wife's 08 Toyota Prius option package 4 paid down enough to buy the second year new LT when it comes out. The new car purchase has really put a damper on disposable income, but it gets 50 mpg in town and with 4 dollar a gallon gas around the corner it was time to get rid of the 27 mpg Hyundai in town 36 on the highway.
I have always wanted a Beemer since my dad told me of having his dead Buick pulled by a German Cop with a rope back in the early 50's with a Beemer when he was stationed there, I was born in Munich.
If I have my info right, thanks David Shealy or who ever was responsible for starting this forum and as soon as I check with the CFO or wife I'll join as a paying member.
And thanks Wolfgang for the offer!
If it's built by man it will fail, if somebody built the perfect bike, there would only be one brand.
Be safe all, time to go battle Houston traffic on my 96% er.

Last edited by Coot; Apr 9th, 2008 at 6:46 pm.
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post #29 of 31 Old Apr 9th, 2008, 9:22 pm
 
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Re: BMW Blues

Coot,, The 4% thing is from the number of FD's that failed going to a CCR 2 or 3 years ago....... As far as BMW's go it means nothing... Think about it,, BMW made 100k bikes last year, that would mean at least 4 thousand FD failures.... I'm a 96% too..........Pete
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post #30 of 31 Old Apr 10th, 2008, 3:27 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
I edited my original post on April 10, 2008 as I was given some incorrect information.

The original bearing was part number 33 12 1 242 210 and was a 19-ball unit sourced from FAG . Sometime during the 2002 model run the bearing used on the assembly line was changed to a 17-ball unit sourced from SKF. Shortly after that the original part number was superseded to 33 12 1 468 899 for field replacement. This was the 17-ball sourced from SKF that was used in the new assemblies. The 33 12 1 242 210 was made to be a valid replacement number again late in 2006 or early last year and again is sourced from FAG and is a 19-ball unit. Currently either number is a valid replacement number but there are 162 of the 33 12 1 242 210 in US inventory and 4 of the 33 12 1 468 899.

Yesterday I was told that the new 19-ball units seen in production were from a different source than the original 19-ball. This is not the case. The original 19-ball units used on the 1999-2002 K1200LT were sourced from FAG, the 17-ball units were sourced from SKF. The 19-ball units now in inventory are again sourced from FAG.

Apparently Honda did the same back and forth numbering when they encountered the same kind of failures on the GL-1200. They came up with a superseded number, went to a new source and re-engineered the originally specified bearing and subsequently went back to the original part number with this re-engineered bearing from a new supplier.
I was told today that BMW originally began to investigate the rear drive failures in 2001. After the production break in 2002 they changed vendors for the crown bearing. Sometime around that time they asked dealers to return failed drives replaced under warranty. These drives were subsequently sent to Germany for analysis. BMW is no longer asking for the return of failed drives and bearings and apparently ended this request after about 6 months.

I was also told today that all of the FAG 19-ball units bearing the part number 33 12 1 242 210 were purged from inventory in 2003-2004. That number again became available late in 2006.

The person I spoke with said there have been ‘very few’ failures of either the SKF 17-ball or the ‘new’ FAG 19-ball bearings since a production change was made in mid 2002. He also said that the rate has been even lower since the switch back to FAG, presumably during the 2005 or 2006 summer break. Our survey results would seem to bear this out, since we have very few reports of failures in 2003 and later models and have not had a report of a single failure in a 2006 or 2007 LT.

If any of you have had a post 2002 model failure - please enter your data in our survey!

Randy Prade
Aurora, CO

Just ride it!
Meet Riley

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post #31 of 31 Old Apr 10th, 2008, 6:11 pm
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Re: BMW Blues

Hey -

Sorry you are limited in travel. We had a FD fail on our 02. BMW fixed it, and covered the inconvenience beyond expectations. We went back to get the bike, and the service guy said to 'ride it like I stole it' as the new part was warrantied for 12 months. Did so. Happily. Put many more miles (and several more l-o-n-g trips) on it before a SUV attacked it. The current one gets ridden. We just needed to confirm we still liked distance riding. First trip we were chatting while still on the road "so, when you wanna do The Maritimes?" As some wise member put it - Just Ride It!

Jim Taylor
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07 Black LT "Dancing Heart", 03 Quantum "Ice"
02 Black LTC "Raven" (RIP 8/26/06)
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