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post #1 of 29 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 9:29 pm Thread Starter
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Valve Adjustment Question

I just got done checking my valves and most of them are in spec except couple of exhaust valves that are about .001" too sloppy and a couple of the intakes which are a little bit tight. First off, how would valves end up too tight unless they came that way from the factory? If anything they should become looser as they wear I would think. On the exhaust valves, do I really need to replace anything because the different size buckets come in .002" increments, so if I replace the ones on the exhaust side, I might end up a little too tight. I have about 57K on the bike.
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post #2 of 29 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 9:44 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

The LT is a bit different than some other vehicles/bikes. The valves wear tight on the LT. So, the gap gets smaller when they wear. So I guess I am wondering how you ended up with sloppy valve clearances. I would double check the loose ones and adjust the tight ones.

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post #3 of 29 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 10:32 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
I just got done checking my valves and most of them are in spec except couple of exhaust valves that are about .001" too sloppy and a couple of the intakes which are a little bit tight. First off, how would valves end up too tight unless they came that way from the factory? If anything they should become looser as they wear I would think. On the exhaust valves, do I really need to replace anything because the different size buckets come in .002" increments, so if I replace the ones on the exhaust side, I might end up a little too tight. I have about 57K on the bike.
The valves go tight as the valve material wears. I would certainly adjust the exhaust as they are more prone to burning than the intake.

Get used to using metric, the buckets come in .05 increments. Trust me on this one, I accidentally used American measurements in my first valve adjustment and it took me three days to figure out what I did wrong.

I think I've adjusted 14, or so, LT's now. I don't even use the formula anymore. If a valve is tight, I just go down a bucket (a .90 bucket gets replaced by a .85 bucket). I keep a collection of 28 buckets in the gearage. Of course, after a few swaps I have to head to the dealer to trade them out as you end up with a collection of large buckets.



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post #4 of 29 Old Mar 31st, 2008, 10:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

If that's the case, I should probably be OK on the exhaust ones as they are a bit sloppy and should wear down in time. If I go a size smaller, they might end up too tight.
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post #5 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 8:22 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

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Originally Posted by tonyn1
If that's the case, I should probably be OK on the exhaust ones as they are a bit sloppy and should wear down in time. If I go a size smaller, they might end up too tight.
If you go a size smaller, they get looser. If you go a size larger, they tighten.

I was worried like crazy the first time I did mine, especially when I screwed the formula by plugging in American measurements instead of metric. I adjusted them three times till I figured out what happened. Then, when I fired it up, my heart stopped as there was a slapping sound. They'll do that sometimes, till the tensioner gets pumped up.

Now, adjusting them is simple Muns and I did his complete, with two DeWalt electric screwdrivers in less than 2 hours. You'll get used to it in time.

Now, if I could just grow some balls and do the GT.



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post #6 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 8:48 am Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

So what do you think about the exhaust valves? Being that they are about .001" too loose, if I installed a new, larger bucket, which come in increments of .00197" or close to two thousands, I might make them a little too tight. Sorry for not using the metrics, but I'm still used to the old english system still and my feeler gauges are english also, but I do need to get some. Speaking of metrics, I wish everybody would just go to that exclusively. It is so annoying working on certain vehicles where they mix and match english & metric. The only people happy about that are people like Sears, who get to sell you two sets of wrenches, sockets, etc.
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post #7 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 10:44 am
 
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Very few countries still use non metrics, Canada changed 20 years ago and I think mexico had it for even longer.

USA use the metric system today in their corrency so it should not be that hard to explain and learn it.

And it make sence that 0 degrees C is the change between cold and warm.

Russia had the metric system all along, even in aviation terms.

Metric is easy as it can be with 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 etc.
Same for fluids, 1 cl 1dl, 2 dl, 3 dl 4, dl - 10 dl = 1 litre

and in tools, much easier with 10mm 11mm 12mm etc

Good luck for the change guys
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post #8 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 1:10 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Grif has it right. If a valve is out of spec, just go to the next size bucket.

Intake................0.15 - 0.20 mm (0.006 - 0.008 in)
Exhaust..............0.25 - 0.30 mm (0.010 - 0.012 in)

You say your exhaust valves are 0.001 too loose, which makes them 0.013. Going to the next smaller bucket will drop the clearance by 0.002 giving you a final reading of 0.011" which is in the middle of the accepted range.

Same thing on the other end. If an intake is "a little bit tight" then it is reading 0.005. Going to the next larger bucket will add 0.002 giving you a final reading of 0.007" which again is in the middle of the accepted range.

The same calculations work in metric, of course.

Ken
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post #9 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 4:00 pm
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Wink Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Good info Ken, except you have the buckets reversed: If you're loose and need to make it tighter (can't really see the reason for this myself?) you would go to the next LARGER Bucket; If you're tight and wish to make it looser (this is the normal desire!) you would go to the next SMALLER Bucket.

Otherwise, do just what Ken and Grif said, and don't sweat the math!

John
Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Grif has it right. If a valve is out of spec, just go to the next size bucket.

Intake................0.15 - 0.20 mm (0.006 - 0.008 in)
Exhaust..............0.25 - 0.30 mm (0.010 - 0.012 in)

You say your exhaust valves are 0.001 too loose, which makes them 0.013. Going to the next smaller bucket will drop the clearance by 0.002 giving you a final reading of 0.011" which is in the middle of the accepted range.

Same thing on the other end. If an intake is "a little bit tight" then it is reading 0.005. Going to the next larger bucket will add 0.002 giving you a final reading of 0.007" which again is in the middle of the accepted range.

The same calculations work in metric, of course.

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post #10 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 6:05 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
So what do you think about the exhaust valves? Being that they are about .001" too loose, if I installed a new, larger bucket, which come in increments of .00197" or close to two thousands, I might make them a little too tight. Sorry for not using the metrics, but I'm still used to the old english system still and my feeler gauges are english also, but I do need to get some. Speaking of metrics, I wish everybody would just go to that exclusively. It is so annoying working on certain vehicles where they mix and match english & metric. The only people happy about that are people like Sears, who get to sell you two sets of wrenches, sockets, etc.
I would do absolutely NOTHING to the loose exhausts. 0.001 loose is nothing to worry about, but 0.001 tight is. They will tighten up normally anyway, so next time you check they should be in range. I would certainly remember which ones appear loose and check them carefully next time. If any valve ever loosens up, be afraid.

The only way valves can loosen on the LT (or any cam over valve head for that matter), is for the cam lobes or cam bearings to wear abnormally, which is an expensive proposition to repair. Normal is for the valve head/seat interface to wear, seating the valve deeper into the head, tightening the clearance between the follower and cam.

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post #11 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 6:08 pm
 
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

I sthere a special tool for messuring and retraction of the valves ?
In case how od I get hold of such and where do I get to buy these buckets?

Our BMW dealers would certantly not give away stuff that will loose them money!

Same goes for that bleeding tool for the brake fluids ?

Is there an available set of most important tools needed for a certain task?
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post #12 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 6:15 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
Very few countries still use non metrics, Canada changed 20 years ago and I think mexico had it for even longer.

USA use the metric system today in their corrency so it should not be that hard to explain and learn it.

And it make sence that 0 degrees C is the change between cold and warm.

Russia had the metric system all along, even in aviation terms.

Metric is easy as it can be with 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 etc.
Same for fluids, 1 cl 1dl, 2 dl, 3 dl 4, dl - 10 dl = 1 litre

and in tools, much easier with 10mm 11mm 12mm etc

Good luck for the change guys
One of the absolute DUMBEST things the USA ever has done is to drop the Metrication Board under President Reagan's lead. We were well on the way, teaching it in schools, starting the change in our Auto industry, and dual labeling packages in stores. In the mid to late 1980s for some unknown reason this was dropped. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!!

The last I heard, a few years ago, the ONLY countries still on this lame "Imperial" based system were the US, Brunei, Burma, and Yemen. Great company, yes?

At least Britain, who gave us this system in the first place, had enough sense to abandon it.

Oh yea, we smart!

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post #13 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 7:45 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

"I disagree on some of this. Canada may have 'technically' changed, but they didn't "really" change, now we get everything expressed in both metric and imperial. Grocery stores still quote: "price per pound", and metric in small print. We get temperatures in celcius and farenheit, and we get all kinds of weird measurements because we made metric fit imperial measurements instead of the other way around. We get a container of orange juice which is 1.89 Litres which equates to 1/2 U.S. Gallon, and only .416 Imperial gallon, so we are messed up between metric, U.S., and Imperial and nothing in the grocery store makes sense. If they went truly metric they would sell things in even sizes like a 2 Liter jug of juice, instead they made size that would fit into the American measurement format. North America should either have changed completely or stayed the same. It is fine for Europe to say very few countries use non-metric, but they should see what a mess it is here in Canada, especially for people brought up on Imperial. I never know what wrench to use, what the temperature is, how fast I am going, or how far I have gone. The statement "metric is easy" is only true if we were truely metric, Canada tried to change to metric but forgot that we are so closely linked to the U.S, that they didn't really make measurements metric, they convereted things the wrong way. Enough of my ranting on this, just wanted to say unless the U.S. go metric, we will never be truly that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
Very few countries still use non metrics, Canada changed 20 years ago and I think mexico had it for even longer.

USA use the metric system today in their corrency so it should not be that hard to explain and learn it.

And it make sence that 0 degrees C is the change between cold and warm.

Russia had the metric system all along, even in aviation terms.

Metric is easy as it can be with 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 etc.
Same for fluids, 1 cl 1dl, 2 dl, 3 dl 4, dl - 10 dl = 1 litre

and in tools, much easier with 10mm 11mm 12mm etc

Good luck for the change guys


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post #14 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 7:58 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
I sthere a special tool for messuring and retraction of the valves ?
In case how od I get hold of such and where do I get to buy these buckets?

Our BMW dealers would certantly not give away stuff that will loose them money!

Same goes for that bleeding tool for the brake fluids ?

Is there an available set of most important tools needed for a certain task?
It says RS, but it's what we use for the LT http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling...ves/index.html



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post #15 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 11:24 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

I just tried the "Gunsmoke" procedure and it wasn't too clear about was meant about pushing the tensioner down, having never seen the thing. I tried pushing down on the lower cam chain guide as he recommended, but it did not seem to move any. I was able however to stick a drill bit in that hole and it went in aways with no problem. Not being sure what was going on there and having a leak, though not a major one coming from the bottom of the timing cover, I decided to take it off and fix that while I had the thing apart. What a major freakin job to get that off, however!! I had to pull the radiators, the hall effect assembly and the crankcase cover among other things and had to pull the wires for the coolant temperature and oil pressure through the cover to get it off, plus take out about 20 screws. And then there was not even a gasket. Is there supposed to be one? I don't see one in the parts fiche. What does one use on that. Whatever they had used before, it wasn't working real well. Getting back to the cam chain tensioner, I wonder if it was working at all as I was able to get a drill bit in there without pushing down on the lower cam chain guide at all. I should have checked to see if it was stuck in there. Do they get stuck?
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post #16 of 29 Old Apr 1st, 2008, 11:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
I sthere a special tool for messuring and retraction of the valves ?
In case how od I get hold of such and where do I get to buy these buckets?

Our BMW dealers would certantly not give away stuff that will loose them money!

Same goes for that bleeding tool for the brake fluids ?

Is there an available set of most important tools needed for a certain task?
I assume you are talking about the valve "buckets", which you do not have to measure unless they don't have the number stamped inside them. As far as a tool, you do not need one as they come out fairly easily by hand, especially the exhaust ones which I was afraid were going to drop out and I wouldn't know which hole they came from and had to put something accross there to keep them from doing so. The Gunsmoke procedure says to use a magnet to remove them, but I didn't think that would be a good idea as it may leave them magnetized and they would attract any minute metal fragments that may be present in the oil. BMW dealers sell the buckets. As far as brake bleeding tools, I would go with Mityvac, if you are able to purchase that where you live, or you could get one online.
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post #17 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 1:33 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFish
Good info Ken, except you have the buckets reversed: If you're loose and need to make it tighter (can't really see the reason for this myself?) you would go to the next LARGER Bucket; If you're tight and wish to make it looser (this is the normal desire!) you would go to the next SMALLER Bucket.
Doh! Thanks, John. Shows what I get for proofreading.

Ken
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'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #18 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 1:40 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
Is there a special tool for measuring and retraction of the valves?
In case how do I get hold of such and where do I get to buy these buckets
If you go to the RealOEM.com parts list, then look up your bike (or enter your VIN), then go to Engine, then Valve Train, you'll see a diagram and a listing for all the parts. For example the part number for a 2.80mm Cam Follower is 11327666048, and the estimated price is $15.62.

You can also look things up using the parts fiche at Max BMW which shows the same part number at $14.00, or at A&S BMW which gives part numbers but no prices.

For prices on any BMW parts by part number, check Chicago BMW who shows the Cam Follower at $14.00 retail, and $11.20 with their 20% discount.

I just bookmark these links, and I can find part numbers and prices in minutes.

Ken
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #19 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 2:25 am
 
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Thanks guys I have also now bookmarked these links.

Our dealer takes 2000 dollars for a 12k service!
For that I could go to the USA with return tickets $ 800
then visit a member who is to do that service and be with him buing stuff needed and have a vacation at the same time and still come hoome with all parts and some other stuff with same money.
Ofocurse I would have to do the labour but that is merely a hobby if you know what to do.



Imagine 50 bucks for a quart of oil!! damn! That is only 20 dollars less a botle of vodka! or would buy me 20 litres of milk or gasoline, but only two drinks out on town or 4 beers or 4 20 packs of siagrettes (for those who smoke)

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post #20 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 2:36 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

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Originally Posted by paalao
For that I could go to the USA with return tickets $ 800
then visit a member who is to do that service and be with him buing stuff needed and have a vacation at the same time and still come hoome with all parts and some other stuff with same money.
Or you could just fly me out there and we'll get it all taken care of.

I'd suggest Ari as he's closer, but he'd end up costing you a lot more money in suddenly necessary farkles . . .

Ken
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'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #21 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 2:59 am
 
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

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Originally Posted by meese
Or you could just fly me out there and we'll get it all taken care of.

I'd suggest Ari as he's closer, but he'd end up costing you a lot more money in suddenly necessary farkles . . .

hehe right!!

I am meeting Ari in august when I am attending his Finnish rally and I will be sure to ask him then. Heck maybe a tech session where he did a 12k miles service would be a great programe post and he could do my bike for the example

Heck I will have to ask him that hehe and I can stay a few more days if there is such an opertunity!

Fly you over is also an option
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post #22 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 4:39 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
I just tried the "Gunsmoke" procedure and it wasn't too clear about was meant about pushing the tensioner down, having never seen the thing. I tried pushing down on the lower cam chain guide as he recommended, but it did not seem to move any. I was able however to stick a drill bit in that hole and it went in aways with no problem.
I just stick the bit in the hole and don't worry about it. Works every time. Even if the tensioner hasn't bled down, you can always get the cam sprockets back on by moving the cams with the wrench. I start with the bottom cam, turn it up and then slip the top cam sprocket on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
Is there supposed to be one? I don't see one in the parts fiche. What does one use on that. Whatever they had used before, it wasn't working real well.
No gasket. All done with with an ATV type sealant. Let it set up about and hour and put the part on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
Getting back to the cam chain tensioner, I wonder if it was working at all as I was able to get a drill bit in there without pushing down on the lower cam chain guide at all. I should have checked to see if it was stuck in there. Do they get stuck?
If it wasn't working, you'd have cam chain slap.



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post #23 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 7:09 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
Thanks guys I have also now bookmarked these links.

---------------------
There is one glaring error in the Gunsmoke prodedure. DO NOT remove the spark plugs before taking all the clearance readings! Be sure you have all the clearances measured before removing any spark plug.

This is stated emphatically in the BMW service manual, and there is a very good reason for it.

Any carbon flecks dislodged by taking out plugs have a great opportunity to drop onto the seating area of any open exhaust valve, which would cause the clearance measurement to be too large. If one adjusted for this, then when the engine is started and the debris blown off the seat that valve would now be too tight, a sure way to burn an exhaust valve.

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post #24 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 8:39 am Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by grifscoots
If it wasn't working, you'd have cam chain slap.
What would be the effects of that? Would you hear it?
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post #25 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 10:08 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

You'd hear it.



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post #26 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 10:17 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

I wish all bikes had hydraulic lifters. Best thing they ever put in some bikes.

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post #27 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 10:31 am Thread Starter
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

That begs the question. Why don't they have hydraulic lifters?
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post #28 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 2:38 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

From what I have seen posted, hydraulic lifters can't keep up with the high RPMs of most modern motorcycles.

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post #29 of 29 Old Apr 2nd, 2008, 6:18 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyn1
That begs the question. Why don't they have hydraulic lifters?
Two reasons:

1- Higher reving engines with rather fast opening ramps really perform better with mechanicaly lifted valves.

2- Hydraulic lifters require additional height in the head to accomodate the space needed for the hydraulic piston in the lifter. The LT engine, as in many small high performance engines, try to keep the overall engine height (or width in the LT) as low as possible. Mechanical shim or bucket designs accomplish as low as practical head height.

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