BMW's fix for the final drive catastrophy!!! - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 8:08 am Thread Starter
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BMW's fix for the final drive catastrophy!!!

We may think this is an old subject but as long as newer and low mileage bikes are failing there is going to be some noise regarding the subject. As for the fix. MANY manufactures use this successfully. You can call it industrial espionage if you want but if it fixes the problem and you stop losing customers it is a win. BMW could buy a new Goldwing final drive and let the engineers take it apart and figure out why they DON'T fail. Make a replica and waaalaaa problem is fixed. I am looking at buying a goldwing and spent a fair amount of time on some sites similar to this. The only final drive problems I could find were seal leaks on models from 1982 to about 1985 in that era. You can't throw the,it's a heavy bike they are going to fail. The lighter models fail too and the Wing is not any lighter without failures. Clearly a design issue and as much as I want a new GS I am looking elswhere as cross contry travel is my preference. An LT and a GS would be ideal for me but it will likely be a Goldwing or an HD and a KTM 990. The engineers came out with the new FD and everybody said FINALLY its fixed. Turns out the engineers are drinking too much beer. NO drain plug on the rear drive? What were they thinking? And the new failing at same numbers. It is clear they don't have a clue how to fix it. So I say COPY HONDA and be done with it!!!
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post #2 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 8:28 am
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If buying a wing is your solution to a potential FD issue then I do not believe you have taken all characteristics of these bikes to heart. I am sure that there maybe a mechanical failure on any machine. I understand that BMW FD's have a negative history and would be a PITA if one failed on me, but I would not be willing to give up all the other characteristics that fit my pride of ownership.

M
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post #3 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:22 am
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I will take my chances witht he crappy FD to get a more nimble bike that gets over 50 mpg compared to my friend's wing that is lucky to get in the mid-30s. No bike is perfect, except of course a 1966 Honda 305 Dream.
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post #4 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:25 am
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Pride of Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr1150gs
If buying a wing is your solution to a potential FD issue then I do not believe you have taken all characteristics of these bikes to heart. I am sure that there maybe a mechanical failure on any machine. I understand that BMW FD's have a negative history and would be a PITA if one failed on me, but I would not be willing to give up all the other characteristics that fit my pride of ownership.

M
I do not understand your meaning of characteristics of the bike and pride of ownership. I have owned 27 motorcycles in my life time. Four of them BMW’s, which two of them were LT’s. I really liked the LT’s but I took all the characteristics of the 2005 LT I owned and after fork seal leaks, transmission seal leaking, drilling a weep hole for the slave cylinder, fuel quick connects leaking, rear drive replaced, complete instrument panel replaced and all the service that was required I loss the pride of ownership. I purchased a 2008 Gold Wing with navigation and comfort package and now know the pride of ownership.

Jerry Mathison
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post #5 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:40 am
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Gas Mileage

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkimmel2
I will take my chances witht he crappy FD to get a more nimble bike that gets over 50 mpg compared to my friend's wing that is lucky to get in the mid-30s. No bike is perfect, except of course a 1966 Honda 305 Dream.

I do not understand people paying 25,000 dollars for a motorcycle and then complain about 10 miles to gallon less on gas milage. The power is will worth it. If you each ride 20,000 miles a year at 3.00 dollars a gallon your friend will spend 300 dollars more for gas than you. If you do the service like recommend by BMW you will spend double that for the service plus if you have a rear drive go that will be 1500 dollars.

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post #6 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:53 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkimmel2
I will take my chances witht he crappy FD to get a more nimble bike that gets over 50 mpg compared to my friend's wing that is lucky to get in the mid-30s. No bike is perfect, except of course a 1966 Honda 305 Dream.
I have ridden an 06' Goldwing, and I think it feels a lot heavier in the corners then the LT. I ride my LT very hard in the corners, as I rub the kickstands often. I will pay the price for owning the LT, but I will enjoy the ride 10X more.


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post #7 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:54 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrym
... I purchased a 2008 Gold Wing with navigation and comfort package and now know the pride of ownership.
and may it ever be so! Chances are you felt that same pride of ownership with most of your other bikes when they were new. I hope you feel the same way with the Wing after a few years. (honestly, not being sarcastic) We all should feel that way about our purchase decisions... or change them. You have, and you're happy. That's a good thing.

I have not seen the definitive failure rate of BMW FD failures published. I'm guessing only BMW has those numbers and they don't seem to be sharing them. (If any readers have them, please share them).

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post #8 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 10:01 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrym
I do not understand people paying 25,000 dollars for a motorcycle and then complain about 10 miles to gallon less on gas milage. The power is will worth it. If you each ride 20,000 miles a year at 3.00 dollars a gallon your friend will spend 300 dollars more for gas than you. If you do the service like recommend by BMW you will spend double that for the service plus if you have a rear drive go that will be 1500 dollars.

I have never paid 25,000 for a bike. Bought my 1999 used in 2004 when it had 14000 miles on the clock for about 8 grand. 40,000 miles later, it has needed fluid changes and little else. I am certainly not impressed with the GW "power."

300.00 in gas savings buys my little girl a nice prom dress. Those kinds of savings over a lifetime help pay for a nice college too!
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post #9 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 10:19 am
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As I read this post; I saw where the LT was compared to a Wing and a Harley?

Interesting.

Either of those bikes can not be ridden the way I ride my LT.
I have owned only sportbikes before my LT purchase.
Forget about the kickstand dragging, my passenger pegs have drag marks on them.

There is NO F' ing Way that a Wing or Harley can be ridden like an LT.

As for cost, I have a 2002 that I paid 9K for.
Other than routine maintance, I have not had to put money into it for repairs.

Fuel connect 14.80
Brake pads 78.00
Oil & Filter 40.00 x 3
Air Filter 36.00
Tires 300.00 x 3

I think that is reasonable and compairable to any sportbike.

Wings and Harley's are good bikes if you don't know how to ride the speed limit and enjoy holding up traffic.

Wait, that rant only applies to the curvy roads or does it?




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post #10 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 10:26 am
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Apparently BMW has no intent to ever fix it's final drive problems.

Why, you ask ? Because it's easier and cheaper for you to fix it than them.

Simple enough.

So buy a spare drive and yours will never fail.

Can't afford the high cost of ownership?

Well, not everyone can live in a million dollar home and afford to drive a BMW motorcycle, Sorry. Someone has to drive Honda's and flip hamburgers at Mcdonalds.

Sucks, doesn't it.

Now, Where did I put that spatula....


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post #11 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 10:45 am
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When I rub my kickstand the rear tire has only 1/16 of am inch left before it is off the edge. How do you get more? I also have owned many bikes and am a sport rider, just like the comfort of the LT on my long rides. (future 4%'r)


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post #12 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:03 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OU812
When I rub my kickstand the rear tire has only 1/16 of am inch left before it is off the edge. How do you get more?
It all starts grinding down, giving you a leetle more lean. What you really need are Ohlin shocks and you won't have chicken strips to worry about.



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post #13 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:14 am
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I just sent a message to BMW asking for the FD failure rate on the 99' and up bikes.
http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/contact/send_confirm.jsp


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post #14 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:26 am
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Blah...Blah...Blah

Ohh.....You "Wingers"keep an eye on that frame will ya

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post #15 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OU812
I just sent a message to BMW asking for the FD failure rate on the 99' and up bikes.
http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/contact/send_confirm.jsp
You may get an answer, from Santa or the Easter Bunny. Sure won't be from BMW! They still will not publicly admit there is a problem, period.

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post #16 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:41 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
You may get an answer, from Santa or the Easter Bunny. Sure won't be from BMW! They still will not publicly admit there is a problem, period.
I had to try.


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post #17 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 11:55 am
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I wonder if I should buy a Final Drive or get one from someone with problems, thus I can see what the main problems are and maybe design an alternative!

The company I work for, have an exelent CNC workshop and I think that I may raise some aid from them to machine out some of the stuff I would need, and since I am into design engineering I may pull something out. Something with better quality perhaps!

I`ll have to bring this up with the guys on that meeting in Finland in August.

Regards

Paul
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PS! Anyone have pictures of the problem areas with the final drive?
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post #18 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 12:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethy
...The only final drive problems I could find were seal leaks on models from 1982 to about 1985 in that era...
1980-81 had the seal issues. I experienced a problem and I've seen just a few others. That era also had some problems with the final drive bushings making noise. Neither of which would leave you on the side of the road and were fixed easily under warranty.

Ride On!


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post #19 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 12:25 pm
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Jerry

Glad you've found joy on two wheels. I also have a 2005 LT,bought used last April. Just tires and maintenance which I do myself. I'll admit that a Mayer seat will be the next purchase but that's my only complaint. My 99 R1100 RT was also trouble free when I sold it last spring. Only managed 7,000 miles on the LT because golfing, skiing, etc. cut down on riding time. Montana sucks for riding this winter. Some of us are just lucky, I guess. Or the black and gold colors just rock. Love the LT even more than RT(wife also agrees). Don't get me started on how much I like the Bmmers I've had.

Ride safe,

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post #20 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 1:16 pm
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Gold Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSpen
Apparently BMW has no intent to ever fix it's final drive problems.

Why, you ask ? Because it's easier and cheaper for you to fix it than them.

Simple enough.

So buy a spare drive and yours will never fail.

Can't afford the high cost of ownership?

Well, not everyone can live in a million dollar home and afford to drive a BMW motorcycle, Sorry. Someone has to drive Honda's and flip hamburgers at Mcdonalds.

Sucks, doesn't it.

Now, Where did I put that spatula....


John
Its not the cost to me. Its the reliability. Believe me I can afford any bike I would like. I do not keep one over three years. The Gold Wing is more money than the BMW LT but it does not have the problems. Yes, I would prefer a BMW but you see all the problems I had.

Jerry Mathison
Woodbine, Iowa
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post #21 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 1:33 pm
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I don't think it is financially realistic to expect BMW to suddenly change course & replace our FDs given the comparatively low failure rate, even though failure is very messy.

Remember also that BMW is now only seeing FDs that have failed, which means the actual preload information is lost. Most of our bikes do not have anywhere near enough mileage on them to have experienced a failure.

We users do have a major advantage over BMW in that we could have access to those some FDs that have gone over 100000 miles. These are the ones we should be looking at, as the preload measurements would still be valid.

My last thought - is there a way that we could quantify or even just listen to the noise output from these drives under load? Spalled bearings get really noisy for some time before complete failure. Maybe a guitar mike glued onto the housing, connected to the mike input to an intercom? Maybe there's a cheaper Radio Shack alternative?
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post #22 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 2:54 pm
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Normally, winter time posts don't reference final drive failures, broken shift linkage, failed slave cylinders, and threads about best oil, oil filters and tires.

I like winter; nice riding wx; rain once in a while; mostly cheerful helpful posts.

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post #23 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 4:31 pm
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FD Failures

I've gone to numerous rallies and the most common complaint about the LT I've heard is FD failures. I always ask the same question to those who complain. If you are so worried about FD failures why are you still riding the LT. They all give me the same answer. That there is no other two up riding bike on the road that can compare to it, and I must agree. I just enjoy the ride and do not worry about break downs.

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post #24 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 5:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
I have not seen the definitive failure rate of BMW FD failures published. I'm guessing only BMW has those numbers and they don't seem to be sharing them.
Howard -
I'm not directing this response at you, but this seem the best place to post given the recent renewed interest in the FD failure rate!

Not sure FD failure numbers (even if they exist) can be 100% quantified. For example, let's say a driver weighs 250 lbs, and the pillion weighs 180, side cases are loaded and they're pulling a trailer, etc, and experience a FD failure. How much of this data makes it to BMW? Is this a true FD failure, or failure due to grossly exceeding the GVW?

Or, let's say the owner does his own maintenance, or the dealer performs improper maintenance. How much of this data gets to BMW?

I'm not defending BMW, but I do not know how all the data necessary to truly determine how EVERY drive failed can be collected.

Ted

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post #25 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 6:13 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
Howard -
I'm not directing this response at you, but this seem the best place to post given the recent renewed interest in the FD failure rate!

Not sure FD failure numbers (even if they exist) can be 100% quantified. For example, let's say a driver weighs 250 lbs, and the pillion weighs 180, side cases are loaded and they're pulling a trailer, etc, and experience a FD failure. How much of this data makes it to BMW? Is this a true FD failure, or failure due to grossly exceeding the GVW?

Or, let's say the owner does his own maintenance, or the dealer performs improper maintenance. How much of this data gets to BMW?

I'm not defending BMW, but I do not know how all the data necessary to truly determine how EVERY drive failed can be collected.
Good points, Ted. All I am curious to know is: How many FDs have failed, and what is the percentage by <insert model name & year>? Just curious, not accusing.

What a day it would be if BMW would step up and discuss this issue.

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post #26 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 6:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
I wonder if I should buy a Final Drive or get one from someone with problems, thus I can see what the main problems are and maybe design an alternative!

The company I work for, have an exelent CNC workshop and I think that I may raise some aid from them to machine out some of the stuff I would need, and since I am into design engineering I may pull something out. Something with better quality perhaps!...
Build a better mousetrap (FD) and the LT world will beat a path to your door. You may have a good business idea there.

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2009 BMW K1200LT - 60k miles
2012 BMW F650GS (sold)
2005 BMW K1200LT - "Gray Ghost", traded at 120k miles
2005 Honda Shadow 650 (sold)
AMA, IBA, BMW MOA. CCRs: Braselton 2006, Osage Beach 2007, Duluth 2012


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post #27 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 8:47 pm Thread Starter
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Some of you are taking this post all wrong. If you feel defensive to the point of running down all the other brands. Well frankly you may be part of the problem. Let me explain. If no one is going to accept the fact the design has some problems then BMW is less likely to address them. If we could come to some common ground here, especially on a website such as this I believe some pressure on BMW could have a positive impact. The 4% BMW states appears to be a low figure. Heck over a dozen people I talked to at CCR this year had experienced a FD failure, some more than one. I am confident I did not meet a hundred people. A good start might be someone could post the email address for the BMW regional reps and letters could be sent from all concerned. Only a squeaky wheel gets oil and if we want to burry our head in the sand and make excuses, nothing is going to change.
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post #28 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:03 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rethy
The 4% BMW states appears to be a low figure.
It's not. It's actually the highest possible % which was calculated in 2002! The number was really 3.6% but this figure contained "failures" that may not have been actual failures.

If you add all the bikes sold since then (from 2003 - 2008), then the % is probably less than 1% now.

Unfortunately, without knowing how many LT's have been sold (both US and internationally) vs how many have failed, then you are never going to know. Pretty sure there have been less than 5 failures reported on this board for LT model years 2003 - 2008 since 2003.

Ted

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post #29 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 9:24 pm
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Ball Bearing Fails

Quote:
Originally Posted by paalao
I wonder if I should buy a Final Drive or get one from someone with problems, thus I can see what the main problems are and maybe design an alternative!

The company I work for, have an exelent CNC workshop and I think that I may raise some aid from them to machine out some of the stuff I would need, and since I am into design engineering I may pull something out. Something with better quality perhaps!

I`ll have to bring this up with the guys on that meeting in Finland in August.

Regards

Paul
Norway

PS! Anyone have pictures of the problem areas with the final drive?
Paul, in many cases the ball bearing retainer fails, at other times we get spalling of the race or balls. Other than seals and the ball bearing , the drive gears, housings, hub, spline, etc are a good design. A classified spacer is installed to keep a .004 preload on the rotating parts.

I personally feel that the riveted retainer design fails out of a stress crack in the side rail rivet hole caused by some level of vibration. The bearing vendor must have improved quality control in the riveting process as since 2004 we have had fewer failures.

The photo shows the normally installed 19 ball compared to an temporary alternate supplier 17 ball bearing which some of us installed when they were available. You can install a new bearing your self every 30K for the same price as a rear tire that we replace every 15k!!!! About $200.

Barnett
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post #30 of 56 Old Jan 27th, 2008, 10:32 pm
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Quote:
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Some of you are taking this post all wrong. If you feel defensive to the point of running down all the other brands. Well frankly you may be part of the problem. Let me explain. If no one is going to accept the fact the design has some problems then BMW is less likely to address them. If we could come to some common ground here, especially on a website such as this I believe some pressure on BMW could have a positive impact. The 4% BMW states appears to be a low figure. Heck over a dozen people I talked to at CCR this year had experienced a FD failure, some more than one. I am confident I did not meet a hundred people. A good start might be someone could post the email address for the BMW regional reps and letters could be sent from all concerned. Only a squeaky wheel gets oil and if we want to burry our head in the sand and make excuses, nothing is going to change.
This issue has been heavily discussed, and cussed, with BMW reps at EVERY CCR (5) I went to, and many have tried to go up the ladder to BMW with no success at all. It has NOT been something that the collective here has just accepted, nor have we let it slide. Don't ever get the idea that we have rolled over and accepted it. However, we also know how much we loved the bike, in spite of it's issues. I had as much trouble with my LT as just about anyone here, and if it had not been totaled at 110,000 miles I would still be riding it, with likely over 250,000 miles on it now. Even with all the issues I had on mine, I would still have another.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #31 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 12:17 am
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The bearing says France. Need I say more?
This was sent to me from a member on the MOA site:

"If you have problems with BMW and you feel that BMW is not fixing the problem, then you should report a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

www.nhtsa.dot.gov

I talked with Laurence Long a Program Engineer 202-366-6281 for the Office of Defects Investigation, I mentioned the defects that BMW Motorcycles is having and he would like to here from you.

For Motorcycles, you can also call:
1-877-536-8368 X66281

I have heard a lot about the final drives seals and slave cylinder problems and defects. These problems should be covered under warranty. Customer should not pay a dime for this defect. BMW needs to fix these problems! RECALL.

My .02, I think that BMW has the best MC. I would not go after BMW. I would hope that BMW would at least acknowledge this and just fix the problems. The arrogant German attitude seems to be the biggest problem."

I thought it may be an option.


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post #32 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 6:25 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OU812
The bearing says France. Need I say more?
This was sent to me from a member on the MOA site:

"If you have problems with BMW and you feel that BMW is not fixing the problem, then you should report a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

www.nhtsa.dot.gov

I talked with Laurence Long a Program Engineer 202-366-6281 for the Office of Defects Investigation, I mentioned the defects that BMW Motorcycles is having and he would like to here from you.

For Motorcycles, you can also call:
1-877-536-8368 X66281
We've been turning these into NHTSA since 2001. What's amazing is NHTSA has raised their head and taken action over, I dunno, I bolt or something on a car, but hasn't peeped on this. On the old site was a running list, every single one turned into NHTSA.



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post #33 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 7:34 am
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Maybe BMW should publicly extend and grandfather their drive train warranty to 10 years, 100,000 miles, just like some of the auto companies have. This would include final drive and internal seals for the clutch problem. This might insure that those with older bikes will be covered, improve resale value, consider new bike purchases instead of abandoning for another make bike, and BMW might put the effort into fixing these problems for the new bikes.
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post #34 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 7:52 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niel_petersen

My last thought - is there a way that we could quantify or even just listen to the noise output from these drives under load? Spalled bearings get really noisy for some time before complete failure. Maybe a guitar mike glued onto the housing, connected to the mike input to an intercom? Maybe there's a cheaper Radio Shack alternative?
I am not paranoid but I am in the process of installing a FD oil thermometer. Perhaps it will give some pre-emptive information about what is going on inside the FD housing. Or maybe not, we shall see...

Regards

Ari "the Farkle-Freak-Finn" Ignatius

Hyvinkää, Finland
2004 ('05) LT, Dark Graphite, "Sunset Cruiser II"

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post #35 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 7:58 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OU812
BMW needs to fix these problems! RECALL.
The only problem with a RECALL is there must first be a problem that is recognized. Then there must be a verifiable causal factor and a solution or repair that fixes it. I see no evidence of any that yet from BMW. Keep the wheel squeaking!

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #36 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 8:41 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pozo_izquierdo
I am not paranoid but I am in the process of installing a FD oil thermometer. Perhaps it will give some pre-emptive information about what is going on inside the FD housing. Or maybe not, we shall see...

Regards
I like that idea! We could then monitor temperatures and also try different drive fluids to look for those providing lowest temperatures. Chemical synthetics should produce lower temperatures than petroleum synthetics with conventional synthetic having the highest temperature. 90 weight oils would circulate better with less drag and 140 weight oils would have thicker and higher film strength. It would be interesting to see which combo produces the lowest temperature.

Let us know how you do it. I might try the same.
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post #37 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 8:54 am
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CURIOUS about weight & Trailers effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted
Howard -
I'm not directing this response at you, but this seem the best place to post given the recent renewed interest in the FD failure rate!

Not sure FD failure numbers (even if they exist) can be 100% quantified. For example, let's say a driver weighs 250 lbs, and the pillion weighs 180, side cases are loaded and they're pulling a trailer, etc, and experience a FD failure. How much of this data makes it to BMW? Is this a true FD failure, or failure due to grossly exceeding the GVW?

Or, let's say the owner does his own maintenance, or the dealer performs improper maintenance. How much of this data gets to BMW?

I'm not defending BMW, but I do not know how all the data necessary to truly determine how EVERY drive failed can be collected.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have any surveys been made to collect the driver/passenger weight normally associated with bikes that have had the failure and did they normally tow a trailer. It could been that the more weight + towing a trailer would lead to more failures. Just wondering if there is a correlation?

I.E., I weigh about 160 wet and hardly ever have a passenger. Never tow a trailer. So far, 36,000 miles without a failure. Just curious.....

Dano
Tampa, Fl.

12 K1600 GTL
02 K1200 LT (gone but not forgotten)
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post #38 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 9:14 am
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Barnett

As soon as I get hand on a FD (with problems) I will dismantle and analyze the parts used and their tear and wear and then try to come up with an alternative.

Maybe an rebuild option to put into the housing. As you said, the housing is fine so why change it!

I work within high and low tech tools that goes into oil wells and we have very strict limitations on our gear for pressures, and loads and I am sure we can come up with something that works. Price I dont know yet but durability among the best I am sure.

And since we very often have our new designs and have to have custom made equiptment I am sure that some of our suppliers would give a good deal if there is potenisals for several units

I hate to be stuck somehwere in the middel of nowhere with a broken FD

So if anyone going to finland or comming thrue Norway have one to give /sell I`d like one. Preferebly fitting an 2003 LT so I can copy the specs and test it on my bike.
That temperature idea is also interesting.

Last edited by paalao; Jan 28th, 2008 at 9:19 am.
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post #39 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 11:36 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandiver
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have any surveys been made to collect the driver/passenger weight normally associated with bikes that have had the failure and did they normally tow a trailer. It could been that the more weight + towing a trailer would lead to more failures. Just wondering if there is a correlation?

I.E., I weigh about 160 wet and hardly ever have a passenger. Never tow a trailer. So far, 36,000 miles without a failure. Just curious.....
I was thinking along these lines myself. All the threads dealing with FD failures seem pretty comprehensive in how much information has been gathered. And I have seen it said several times that weight, towing, driving hard, etc. does not seem to come into play.

I was wondering how much data has been collected from as many people as possible who ride the LT. Has there been an ongoing poll taken asking questions such the one dandiver posted, to try to get a better feel for any common item that may be causing the failure.

Expamples of questions posed could be:
Have you had a failure? What type?
What is the average miles driven (monthly?, Annually?)
Do you store your bike for extended periods? (winter, etc,)
What is the weight range you carry.
What type of FD oil do you use.
How often do you change it.

And I am sure that there many questions that could be included that over time, the data could show some sort of pattern. But with the level of knowledge you there, I am sure that this has been done. But the power of this forum and the number of users

I love my LT but I do think about the possibililty of having a failure and it is always on my mind. Well maybe not when I'm blasting down the highway or in the twisties or on a beautiful So. Florida day.... Hey like today, 80 degrees, sunny, light wind.. ah... sorry, I'm going out for a ride. Later.

< - - - Norm Ruest - - - >

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post #40 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 11:57 am
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Sure, all those factors matters BUT the specs and the intention for the bike is shown in its brochures and as long as they are not exceeded it should not be a problem.

Most manufactorers of vehicles put a lower limitation that the test proven result.

On weight the bike in wet mode weighs 387 kg
That means that the two passengers (remember it is a two person bike) can weigh a total of 213 kg with luggage (2.2 lbs in 1 kg) before the weight limitation is passed.

Rappid acceleration patters is also stressfull.

I am sure the BMW factory know by sales what brakes and should do its formost to fix it, and they could easily, but maybe it is to good money to let go of that easy?

I am sure that If I or someone else came up with a solution that would make it much better or sell a lot, then they would fix the problem. Sad but true!
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post #41 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 12:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRuest
I was thinking along these lines myself. All the threads dealing with FD failures seem pretty comprehensive in how much information has been gathered. And I have seen it said several times that weight, towing, driving hard, etc. does not seem to come into play.
Perhaps they missed this recent post:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...58504#poststop

Ted

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post #42 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 12:15 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pozo_izquierdo
I am not paranoid but I am in the process of installing a FD oil thermometer. Perhaps it will give some pre-emptive information about what is going on inside the FD housing. Or maybe not, we shall see...

Regards
I have suggested this using an indoor-outdoor digital memory thermometer. These are routinely available at very reasonable prices. The memory feature would be nice. The outside sensor could simply be epoxied to the housing and the sensor lead run to the rear trunk or whatever.

But the failures seem to be spalling failures, and these won't raise the operating temperature of the gearbox until immediately before failure.

I think internal noise monitoring would detect an impending failure much sooner.
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post #43 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 3:52 pm
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Here is the response from BMW:
Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA. We appreciate your interest in the BMW brand.

Unfortunately, the number of repairs on any particular part in question, is a non-published number, and we do not have access to that information. We apologize for any disappointment this may cause.

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time.
This was my response:
Yes I am very let down by your reluctance to provide critical information about our BMW motorcycles. I have owned 5, plus a few cars, and we are doing research into the problems with the final drives for all BMW motorcycles from 99' and up. We do not want to take it further then you providing us with the requested data. We are owners. Please reconsider your decision on this matter.
Thank you.
Steve Blaylock
Proud BMW owner!


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BMW'S ARE THE WORST BIKE IN THE WORLD, CEPT' WHEN YOU COMPARE THEM TO EVERYTHING ELSE!

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post #44 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 5:56 pm
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this was BMW's response in Oct 2007 to a similar request:

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthre...omer+Relations

Ted

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post #45 of 56 Old Jan 28th, 2008, 6:27 pm
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Here is my latest reply from BMW:

Dear Mr. Blaylock:

I apologize, our understanding is this type of
information is not released to the public.
However, you may write to the corporate office to submit
this request. There address is listed below. I
hope this helps.

BMW Motorrad USA
PO Box 1227
Westwood, NJ 07675


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post #46 of 56 Old Jan 29th, 2008, 5:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OU812
Here is my latest reply from BMW:

Dear Mr. Blaylock:

I apologize, our understanding is this type of
information is not released to the public.
However, you may write to the corporate office to submit
this request. There address is listed below. I
hope this helps.

BMW Motorrad USA
PO Box 1227
Westwood, NJ 07675


Shall wee in unison?
Typical corporate CYA response. Disappointed, but not surprised. "We" dont have those #s? WTH? Who is "we"? THEY are "we".

Howard Schisler
2015 BMW K1600GTL
2009 BMW K1200LT - 60k miles
2012 BMW F650GS (sold)
2005 BMW K1200LT - "Gray Ghost", traded at 120k miles
2005 Honda Shadow 650 (sold)
AMA, IBA, BMW MOA. CCRs: Braselton 2006, Osage Beach 2007, Duluth 2012


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post #47 of 56 Old Jan 29th, 2008, 9:04 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hschisler
Typical corporate CYA response. Disappointed, but not surprised. "We" dont have those #s? WTH? Who is "we"? THEY are "we".
Not releasing is different than not having.

Ted

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post #48 of 56 Old Jan 29th, 2008, 9:36 am
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Best solution for peace of mind is to purchase a spare and have it renewed, pack it in a suitable shipping container along with any additional tools you may need to change it out and leave it with a friend or business who will UPS it to you when needed. After the change send it back to yourself and have it renewed for the next time. What were are all discussing is peace of mind. The ability to get on and go, with your SO and gear whenever and where ever you desire. I love my beemers for what I call the european style of ride opposed to the American style of ride that I see with the Goldwing and Harley. In my never to be humble opinion, if your LT has chicken strips on the tires you are on the wrong bike.

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post #49 of 56 Old Jan 29th, 2008, 10:21 am
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Spare rear drive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackercraft792
Best solution for peace of mind is to purchase a spare and have it renewed, pack it in a suitable shipping container along with any additional tools you may need to change it out and leave it with a friend or business who will UPS it to you when needed. After the change send it back to yourself and have it renewed for the next time. What were are all discussing is peace of mind. The ability to get on and go, with your SO and gear whenever and where ever you desire. I love my beemers for what I call the european style of ride opposed to the American style of ride that I see with the Goldwing and Harley. In my never to be humble opinion, if your LT has chicken strips on the tires you are on the wrong bike.
I liked my LT but this is ridiculous to purchase and box up a spare rear drive to have shipped on your vacation to some unknown area and change out the rear drive. I have been a mechanic and machinist all my life and could do this but there are a lot of BMW riders that are not capable of doing this or even consider this. You can not change the rear drive out in the middle of a road and you do need some sort of a shop. You are going to lose a minium of three days no transportation to get anywhere. Most people have a week or two and have to be back home. To hear things like this is what turns people off of BMW's. Like I said, I did liked my LT but not this will. There are to many bikes of today that do not have all these problems.

Jerry Mathison
Woodbine, Iowa
2008 Gold Wing
2005 Ocean Blue (Sold)
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post #50 of 56 Old Jan 30th, 2008, 7:10 pm
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Has anyone installed an airplane type chip detector in the final drive? What yearly (at rear drive oil change) oil analysis?
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