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post #1 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 2:30 pm Thread Starter
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Need Help....

Today we almost finished installing a new clutch and tranny in a 2002 K1200LT, but when we try to crank it, it does nothing. No sounds whatsoever. We DO see the lights come on, instrument panel, etc AND hear the fuel pump energize, but when the starter button is pushed, no sound at all. Here's what we have checked:

Reverse lever.....kill switch...clutch...kickstand...

Could not locate the starter solenoid (It wasn't where the manual said it should be (in electrical box under tank).

Any ideas at all?

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


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post #2 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:26 pm
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Jack could you have forgot the starter motor cables ?

Positive cable to starter motor and ground lead to cross-tube.

Pete Murray
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2014 RT
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2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #3 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:34 pm Thread Starter
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Murray,

We did check those, but I have posted a picture below. Could someone look at their LT (preferably a 2002 or close by) to see if the wiring indicated by arrows looks correct???? Thanks a ton.
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Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #4 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:36 pm
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Not starting

Jack

I am not sure but could it be the side stand switch?

Regards

Graham Wintersgill
On the bonnnie bonnie banks of Loch Lomond

2001 K1200LT

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post #5 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:43 pm
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I was think'n that too Graham - but he said he checked the "kickstand" - which is 'Americanese' for sidestand.

How does the ignition key|switch interlock with the start circuit?

Tate

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post #6 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:57 pm
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Murray,

We did check those, but I have posted a picture below. Could someone look at their LT (preferably a 2002 or close by) to see if the wiring indicated by arrows looks correct???? Thanks a ton.
I do not see why one would disconnect those wires for this job , curious ?

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
Stroudsburg, PA
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post #7 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 3:59 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
I do not see why one would disconnect those wires for this job , curious ?

We initially disconnected them because it was very difficult to get to the one that led to the starter (space constraints).

Anyone been able to look at theirs and see if it looks like we have them connected properly? Just kinda' grasping for straws right now.

Does anyone know the test procedure for the starter relay/solenoid? It is the newer solid state model?

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #8 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 4:01 pm
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That'll teach you to think your a master mechanic.

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post #9 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 4:06 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
That'll teach you to think your a master mechanic.


You stink! Now go look at that connector for me!

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #10 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 4:07 pm
 
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Starter fuse/fusible link ( if there is such a thing)? I think my Triumph has one. I know the Pontiac and Scion do.
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post #11 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 4:24 pm
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[QUOTE=cccpastorjack]We initially disconnected them because it was very difficult to get to the one that led to the starter (space constraints).

Starter Relay?

To reach the starter wires I lower the motor trans for increased space.

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
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2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #12 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 4:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
We initially disconnected them because it was very difficult to get to the one that led to the starter (space constraints).

Anyone been able to look at theirs and see if it looks like we have them connected properly? Just kinda' grasping for straws right now.

Does anyone know the test procedure for the starter relay/solenoid? It is the newer solid state model?
Yes that connection is same as my '04. I thought the relay was in the aluminum housing under the tank. Never hunted for it though.

I'm sorry,that's the motronic I'm thinking of. Your relay is not inside the plastic equipment box? If no clicky, then one of the interlocks has to be off.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite

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post #13 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 5:22 pm
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[QUOTE=bowlesj]. I thought the relay was in the aluminum housing under the tank. Never hunted for it though.

John you are correct the starter relay is in the electronic box under the tank.

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #14 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 5:58 pm
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Here is the relay Jack. Both the old style and a replacement new style.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #15 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 6:16 pm
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Jack, if you had the battery disconnected maybe it's the alarm immobilizer. The alarm may have reset itself to a default state. I'm just guessing here, but it's a thought.

Pat Rourke
White Lake,MI.
2002 K1200 LTC, Champange

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post #16 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 6:30 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks SO much for all the adivice and suggestions. I located the starter relay earlier and when we depress the starter button, electricity flows into the relay, but none comes out the other side.

I hate to just go buy a new one and my shop manuals give no instructions on how to test them.

Now...I know there are lots of interlocks/protections....but we had hooked up one wire wrong and I'm wondering if we didn't mess up the relay.

Thoughts????

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #17 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 6:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Thanks SO much for all the adivice and suggestions. I located the starter relay earlier and when we depress the starter button, electricity flows into the relay, but none comes out the other side.

I hate to just go buy a new one and my shop manuals give no instructions on how to test them.

Now...I know there are lots of interlocks/protections....but we had hooked up one wire wrong and I'm wondering if we didn't mess up the relay.

Thoughts????
Jack,
I have not tested this particular relay but have tested and used others. If you are getting power when you press the start button you should here it click. There should also be a set of contacts that close and become common or open and break a line or leg. If these are "load shed" they may also open one set of contacts and close another.

Sorry that I am not any more help.

Roy

Roy Gregersen

Ride Slow, Ride Fast, Always Ride Safe
85 K100RT sold
02 LTC DOA 9/21/14
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post #18 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
Thanks SO much for all the adivice and suggestions. I located the starter relay earlier and when we depress the starter button, electricity flows into the relay, but none comes out the other side.

I hate to just go buy a new one and my shop manuals give no instructions on how to test them.

Now...I know there are lots of interlocks/protections....but we had hooked up one wire wrong and I'm wondering if we didn't mess up the relay.

Thoughts????
Is there any kind of a circuit diagram on the relay (module)? Or if you know for sure which connections are the coil connections, you can ring it with an ohmeter. Coil should have some resistance but not open. If no clicky and the coil is open your done, new relay. If no clicky but coil seems OK, that's usually a missing path to ground for the coil.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
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post #19 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:09 pm
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John, the relay in question is the blue one pictured earlier in this thread, I believe I shorted it out when I hooked up one of the wires incorrectly, there is no burnt smell or an clicking then the starter is depressed. We did take the cover off of the relay and put the relay back into the harness, we then depressed the switch on the relay, and the starter turned over.
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post #20 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:15 pm
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We never checked the coil

We did try to "jump" the coil with 12 V on the correct blades, but, no click no nothing.

The wires didn't look broken, no evidence of us "letting the smoke out" of the coil. The starter switch does give 12V at the relay when pressed. When we manually close the relay contacts, the starter goes.

I would feel a bunch better seeing some black or smelling that stench.

Wish we had a spare to plug in to test.

One thing we never did was check continuity through the coil. I don't know if it would tell us something, but, if a wire were broke, we'd see it.

By the way, Bikebandit has the relay (New) for $85.00, FYI.

2005 KLT "Old Blue"

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post #21 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joegottberg
We did try to "jump" the coil with 12 V on the correct blades, but, no click no nothing.

The wires didn't look broken, no evidence of us "letting the smoke out" of the coil. The starter switch does give 12V at the relay when pressed. When we manually close the relay contacts, the starter goes.

I would feel a bunch better seeing some black or smelling that stench.

Wish we had a spare to plug in to test.

One thing we never did was check continuity through the coil. I don't know if it would tell us something, but, if a wire were broke, we'd see it.

By the way, Bikebandit has the relay (New) for $85.00, FYI.
Joe, the windings go deep, I've never seen one broken on the surface. Sounds like you guys know exactly what leads are what. Check the coil for continuity, bet it's open or very high resistance.

Let us know.

Also, on relay coils. 12V applied to a coil working correctly will measure low voltage at the other end. An open coil will measure 0 volts on the ground side. A coil measuring 12 volts on the ground side has not found ground and is doing no work.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
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post #22 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:46 pm
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Thanks John,

I don't know if we went about testing it correctly, but, after we pulled the relay, we put a continuity tester on the two switching legs (high amp to the starter legs). We then put 12 v on both sides of the relay where it looked like we should to get the coil to pull in. We tried every combination, but, no luck. We could never get the coil to close the contacts.

We then pulled the plastic "cap" off the relay (to expose the guts) and saw nothing outof the ordinary (to back yard mechanics). No black, no smell.

When we mechinically closed the contacts on the relay, it worked.

We also checked the relay plug and got 12 v when we pushed the starter switch, so it looks like the starter switch is OK.

The only "head scratcher" is the wire we mis-wired was a positive wire to the ground lug. I would have thought a ground wire to the hot lug would be worse. Perhaps there was a short inside this relay due to that error?

We also checked all the fuses (more than once). Hard to believe the $85.00 relay is there to protect the $0.10 Fuse, even for the Germans.

Despite all the problems, you should hear Mike's new horn ! WOW ! Don't drift into silver LT's lanes.

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post #23 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:59 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlesj
Is there any kind of a circuit diagram on the relay (module)? Or if you know for sure which connections are the coil connections, you can ring it with an ohmeter. Coil should have some resistance but not open. If no clicky and the coil is open your done, new relay. If no clicky but coil seems OK, that's usually a missing path to ground for the coil.

John,

I just went out and with all wires in place and relay connected I was touching each blade of the relay with a test light to see if I was getting power IN or OUT of the relay.

I noticed that when I touched one blade, (effectively grounding it) the starter button would work when depressed and the starter motor turned over just fine.

THoughts??

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


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post #24 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 7:59 pm
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Smile Thought So

Power to the relay and no action at the starter confirms faulty relay. Plus the incorrect wire tie in must have fried the relay. Change the starter relay and you are done, ?

Pete Murray
IBA # 359 and
2014 RT
1973 R75/5
2002 LT 171 K Gone
2008 FJR 36 K Gone
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post #25 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 8:01 pm Thread Starter
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Can a couple of you guys go to CHAT, so I can tell you what I just found?

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #26 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 8:41 pm Thread Starter
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Me thinks we have the problem solved...thanks to everyone!!!!!

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #27 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 8:49 pm
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Hey guys, I saved the text of the chat and was rereading everything. I now see the part about your grounding an unused lug.

Sounds like the relay is a multiple pole relay with unused connections.

The original used pole must have seperated. What you are doing by using the unused pole is a common practice. Actually, if you had a way to move the original contact in the connector to the new good matching contact on the relay that would work great.

Good job. A new relay would return the bike to stock.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
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post #28 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 8:56 pm
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So tell us....

reading through this, chanting ... Go Jack Go!!! all the way through and then you keep the ending a secret ???

What was the cause? How'd it get fixed?

Was it the butler or the maid?

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The gardner in the kitchen with a knife ?

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post #30 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 10:08 pm Thread Starter
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OK Bill, here is the dramatic conclusion of the LT that wouldn't crank:

When reinstalling the wiring to the starter (see attached pic on post #3 of this thread), we inadvertantly connected the wire labeled (goes to harness) to the negative battery post instead of where you see it attached in the picture. This separated (burned out) a pole on the starter relay that was used as a ground and so, the starter relay would not work.

As I came home from church I went out there (seriously) and laid hands on that bike and asked for wisdom to solve the problem. I began to probe around with a test light that was grounded just to check and see if power was getting INTO and/or OUT OF the relay. As I touched one blade (pole) of the starter relay (effectively grounding it, the starter button worked!

I used a test lead and gave it a better ground and it worked just fine every time. The strange thing was, this (blade) pole on the relay just plugged into a "dummy" female socket on the connector to the harness...it connected to NOTHING.

As John said, "...the relay is a multiple pole relay with unused connections.
The original used pole must have seperated. What you are doing by using the unused pole is a common practice."


So...in effect, through the improper connection of the cable, we burned out a ground (pole) in the starter relay. By connecting a ground to the unused pole, we solved the problem and it works like a champ!

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED OUT! Electrical problems take a LOT of patience, but can be fixed! Special thanks to Joe Gottenburg and Mike St. Just (Sheldan2). They worked all day and they knocked it out! You guys are awesome!

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #31 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 10:12 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
That'll teach you to think your a master mechanic.

In the words of Major Payne,

"Who's da dummy now?"

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
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post #32 of 35 Old Jan 12th, 2008, 10:14 pm
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post #33 of 35 Old Jan 13th, 2008, 7:24 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
As I came home from church I went out there (seriously) and laid hands on that bike and asked for wisdom to solve the problem.
Oh Jack, Are you going to start it up again. Glad you found the problem.

On His Ride,
Steve
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KA5MTE
'02 LTE - Red-blooded Dragonfly
'00 Unigo - Dragon's Egg
'01 LTC - Flying Purple People Eater (Ya gotta be old enough to understand)(RIP)
'00 LTC - Canyon Red Rover (RIP)

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bmwlt.com lately????



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"To not know me is to lose nothing, to not know Him is to lose everything."
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post #34 of 35 Old Jan 13th, 2008, 7:39 am Thread Starter
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cornelius, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 1,986
I'm startin' that LT! 'Cause it's fixed!!!!! Again, thanks to all who helped out.

Jack Homesley
Cornelius, NC USA
'06 Goldwing - "The Black Pearl"
Too many others to list...


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GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #35 of 35 Old Jan 13th, 2008, 7:44 am
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Location: Snellville, GA, USA
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But a real master mechanic would have burned it up in the first place.

On His Ride,
Steve
-
KA5MTE
'02 LTE - Red-blooded Dragonfly
'00 Unigo - Dragon's Egg
'01 LTC - Flying Purple People Eater (Ya gotta be old enough to understand)(RIP)
'00 LTC - Canyon Red Rover (RIP)

Have you
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bmwlt.com lately????



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