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post #1 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 3:08 pm Thread Starter
 
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Question Clutch Centring Bar

I am in the process of replacing my clutch. I was informed by Bmw parts warehouse that the centering tool for centering the clutch plate is not available. The BMW tool is the clutch centring bar part #21 2 672, The centring mandrel part # 21 2 673 is available. Any suggestions. I would rather not ask the dealer to use there tool.

Thanks, Pete aka Murray
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post #2 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 4:26 pm
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I have done this job a couple of times. You do not need the tool. You can center it by eye, looking through the center of the clutch disk at the end of the engine output shaft. Center it by eye before tightening the clutch cover plate screws. To be sure it is aligned, put the actuation shaft into the clutch and be sure the end of it goes into the pilot bushing easily until the rod bottoms on the pressure plate diaphragm.

Did you pull the clutch drive plate and replace the O-Ring and thrust washer on the output shaft? This should be done if you have many miles on the bike. That O-Ring gets hard and causes an oil leak, which can eventually take out the clutch again.

If you do that, I have another tip. You do not need the tightening angle tool for that big nut (which should also be replaced). Tighten it to the specified torque, then mark where one of the nut flats is, then turn it until the next flat lines up with the mark. That is the required 60 degrees specified. Of Course BMW has an expensive, and probably unavailable tool to measure the 60 degrees.

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post #3 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 5:11 pm Thread Starter
 
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David thanks just what I needed to here. I will have the parts friday. Planning on changing the rear main engine seat trans input shaft seal,clutch hex nut ,thrust ring, o ring,thrust washer,wire ring,diaphragm spring,thrust plate, clutch plate,retaining screws, clutch slave. Yes cool trick with the torque on the hex nut. The LT has 73,000 miles . I did review your thread on your teardown , great job ! .

What did you use to install the rear main seal? I may have a question or two this weekend once I get into the job this weekend.
Thanks,, PeteM aka murray
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post #4 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 5:25 pm
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I used a piece of HARD wood, larger than the seal, with a hole in the center to clear the shaft. Tapped it around in circles with a mallet, careful not to let the seal tilt until it is seated. Use something hard though, like Oak. Soft wood will indent easily, and may distort the seal.

If I was going to do it again though I thought of a better tool. Get a steel pipe "Bell" reducer, with the large end about the size of the seal, with a 3/4 or 1" pipe nipple (not sure what size pipe will fit over the shaft extension if the reducer is not long enough) long enough to reach back and give you good alignment, then hit that with the mallet. That would likely keep the seal from tilting easily, as you can hold the pipe in line pretty easily.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #5 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 5:30 pm
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Also, unless you have damage, the clutch pressure plate, and clutch cover should not really need replacing. For sure the wire spacer ring would not need to be replaced. The diaphragm spring probably not, but not very expensive so why not?

You may want to drill a drain hole in the transmission boss where the slave cylinder attaches. Let fluid from a failed slave cylinder drain out rather than be forced into the clutch assembly! We just did that a couple weeks ago on Ken <eese's bike.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #6 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 5:36 pm Thread Starter
 
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Thanks David, I have used sockets with similar diameter in the past.

PeteM aka Murray
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post #7 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 7:29 pm
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Peter: I used a deep socket and a extension and was able to center the clutch.

DON
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post #8 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 8:56 pm
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You may want to drill a drain hole in the transmission boss where the slave cylinder attaches. Let fluid from a failed slave cylinder drain out rather than be forced into the clutch assembly! We just did that a couple weeks ago on Ken <eese's bike.[/QUOTE]

David I will drill the drain for the clutch slave. What size hole did you drill and did you run a drain tube? Any pictures?
Thanks
pete
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post #9 of 29 Old Nov 30th, 2005, 9:03 pm
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by donsobeck
Peter: I used a deep socket and a extension and was able to center the clutch.

DON
Don thanks for the reply. I am interested in how you centered the clutch. I was talking about installing the rear main seal with the socket not centering the clutch.
Pete
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post #10 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 1:38 am
 
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clutch

I never had any trouble centering the clutch, just line up the friction disc before you bolt the back plate on.

Consider replacing the slave cyclinder while it's apart. Kinda different to bleed (search...I think the stock valve is for reverse-bleed), but the slave itself is not too expensive, and there's a bearing inside it, and when the bearing sticks the seals die. Lots of labor expense, worth replacing while it's apart.

Make sure the throwout rod is straight!

And (with all due respect to David of course) my experience has been that my pressure plate and back plate were always heat-damaged (discolored) and slightly warped and had some surface cracks by the time I replaced the clutch, so I'd always replace them too.

And if you're really a fanatic and have the downtime, a local balance shop did an excellent job of balancing the cluthc much better than the Sachs factory did! The engine was definitely smoother (less vibration)...until the NEXT time I replaced the clutch LOL.
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post #11 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 1:43 am
 
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If you're REALLY adventuresome, you can use TWO diaphragm springs (at your own risk), but it's not for the faint-of-heart or limp-of-grip. Email me if you feel experimental in shaving the spacer ring, I can tell you what worked and what didn't. Bottom line: works great but stresses the already-marginal slave-cylinder (throwout) bearing.

Remember to lube the bushing where the throwout rod goes into the engine shaft.
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post #12 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 12:04 pm
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We drilled a hole about 5/36-3/16" diameter. I had a long drill handy, did not measure it. It is easier to do when the cross bar is out, but we did Ken's with that in place, made it a bit harder to do, used a long drill behind the cross bar.

Ken has a couple pictures, maybe he will share them if he reads this.

You want the hole as far forward, close to the seal, but be careful not to actually hit that. Reason is that the nose of the slave cylinder is long, and not a lot smaller than the hole in the transmission. Want the fluid from a failed slave seal to get out easily, so as not to be forced along the actuation rod and into the clutch.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #13 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 2:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
You may want to drill a drain hole in the transmission boss where the slave cylinder attaches. Let fluid from a failed slave cylinder drain out rather than be forced into the clutch assembly!
Just getting caught up on the threads. Here are the pics taken of my LT.

The first image shows the general location of the clutch slave cylinder and its bleeder fitting.


This is with the clutch slave removed. You are looking towards the front of the bike with the rear tire removed. The drive shaft input is to the right.


This shows the drill and long drill bit used. The exhaust is to the left, and the frame cross member is straight ahead and above. Neither needed to be removed for this job.


We're planning on doing some more bikes at the next SoCal tech session. We'll do a full write up then, and post a how-to with better pictures (if I can find a less-greasy bike to work on ).

Ken
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'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
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post #14 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 3:12 pm
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And you will notice in the picture that the bearing/seal is wet. Yes, brake fluid. Ken was not likely too long from a slave cylinder failure/clutch replacement!

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #15 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 3:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
We're planning on doing some more bikes at the next SoCal tech session. We'll do a full write up then, and post a how-to with better pictures (if I can find a less-greasy bike to work on ).
That is "patina", Ken.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #16 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 8:17 pm
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For reference, the bike had 67K on it at the time.

And that "patina" was well-earned.

The dark spot on this picture is what happens when you put 67K on stock shocks (the fluid just weeps out). The dust is from several sets of brake pads that gave their all so I could strafe a few back roads. Maybe I need to ride in the rain more to help clean things up a bit.



And for the record, David, I meant to offer you first test-ride, as long as you promised to bring it back within a day or two.

Ken
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'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #17 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 9:19 pm
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Cool

Ken, David great job thankyou for the assistance and pictures. I guess you guys omitted installing a drain tube ?
Pete Murray
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post #18 of 29 Old Dec 1st, 2005, 10:40 pm
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No tube needed. Where the hole is is a pretty protected area on the rear of the tranny, not that much dirt/dust is directed there anyway. A tube to an area lower down would likely get clogged much easier.

When I did mine, at nearly 100,000 miles, that area on the rear of the transmission was very clean and dry.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #19 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 12:43 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
And (with all due respect to David of course) my experience has been that my pressure plate and back plate were always heat-damaged (discolored) and slightly warped and had some surface cracks by the time I replaced the clutch, so I'd always replace them too.
Don't forget, Greg - you're experience with LT clutches is probably unique. You're one of the few people, perhaps the only one, on this list to actually wear out or burn a clutch. Just about every other clutch has been replaced due to contamination from fluid leakage, without heat damage or warping of clutch components.

- Bob

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post #20 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 4:08 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
If you're REALLY adventuresome, you can use TWO diaphragm springs (at your own risk), but it's not for the faint-of-heart or limp-of-grip. Email me if you feel experimental in shaving the spacer ring, I can tell you what worked and what didn't. Bottom line: works great but stresses the already-marginal slave-cylinder (throwout) bearing.

Remember to lube the bushing where the throwout rod goes into the engine shaft.
Greg thanks I am interested but will stick with the stock setup. I wonder if the RS spring has the same rating? Does the increased spring pressure eliminate slow engagement (dragging) with high RPM starts? I bet you can do burnouts now
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post #21 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 8:12 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_menton
Don't forget, Greg - you're experience with LT clutches is probably unique. You're one of the few people, perhaps the only one, on this list to actually wear out or burn a clutch. Just about every other clutch has been replaced due to contamination from fluid leakage, without heat damage or warping of clutch components.

- Bob
You mean like this--

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post #22 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 9:06 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
And (with all due respect to David of course) my experience has been that my pressure plate and back plate were always heat-damaged (discolored) and slightly warped and had some surface cracks by the time I replaced the clutch, so I'd always replace them too.
We had entirely different riding styles Greg.
When I pulled mine it had 0ver 90,000 miles on it. The clutch plate was fluid contaminated, but there was NO heat indication or measurable wear on the pressure plate or cover plate. I never tried jack rabbit starts with the LT. Learned the first week of having an LT that the clutch would slip pretty easily on a hard start, did not do that again. Did not feel the need to either.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #23 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 2:06 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by early1
You mean like this--
I stand corrected, Ed. Instead of Greg's clutch problems being unique to him, I guess there's two of you out there.

- Bob

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post #24 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 3:14 pm
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I also had a clutch come out that looked like that. Not nearly as bad, but definite signs of discoloration. Sure you can baby the LT's clutch, but I believe that it is underrated for a bike of this size and power. Now I make sure it is fully hooked up before accelerating.

I'm looking forward to the wet multi-plate clutch in the new LT, along with more power and less weight.

Ken
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'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #25 of 29 Old Dec 2nd, 2005, 5:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
We're planning on doing some more bikes at the next SoCal tech session. We'll do a full write up then, and post a how-to with better pictures (if I can find a less-greasy bike to work on ).
Say when!!!

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post #26 of 29 Old Dec 5th, 2005, 1:54 pm Thread Starter
 
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Update I know many of you have dug deep into the
lt. I finally tore my bike down Sunday . Not a hard job but very time consuming. The tranny came out without a problem. I just lowered the rear of the motor no problem with scratching the cases. I traced the dealer's clutch centering tool friday and will have it made. Although it is not necessary. I have the mandrel to center the clutch. I took a bunch of pictures and when complete will post the a,b,c's. How to.
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post #27 of 29 Old Dec 5th, 2005, 2:50 pm
 
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OMG! You drilled a hole in your bike! I getting the vapors just thinking about it
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post #28 of 29 Old Dec 9th, 2005, 11:00 pm
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No, David drilled a hole in my bike. Him I trust.

Actually, I have drilled a few holes in my LT, but usually in inconspicuous places, and only when necessary. With a little forethought, you can usually make a bracket to fit onto an existing screw or bolt.

Besides, it's my bike, not BMW's anymore (as soon as I finish paying it off, that is). And as soon as we can match calendars, we'll be drilling a few more holes in a few more local LT's.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #29 of 29 Old Dec 9th, 2005, 11:20 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
Greg thanks I am interested but will stick with the stock setup. I wonder if the RS spring has the same rating? Does the increased spring pressure eliminate slow engagement (dragging) with high RPM starts? I bet you can do burnouts now
Pete Murray
The problem IMHO is that the other bikes DO have similar spring rating, and the LT is bigger diameter (even compared to RS) and has more area, resulting in LESS lbs per sq inch.

Yes, with dual springs it would lift the front wheel nicely taking off from a stoplight if the flywheel was spun up sufficiently first. Not like my Suzuki TL1000R with the big-bore kit, but it would come up.
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