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post #1 of 21 Old Oct 19th, 2007, 12:59 am Thread Starter
 
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Amsoil Coolant

Has anyone used Amsoil Coolant? I remember on the GL1800 that the factory didn't recommend any coolant that has Silica due to it's beating on the water pump. Is it safe to say that BMW doesn't recommend a coolant with Silica for the same reason? Since Amsoil is, in my estimation, a superior product for synthetic oil...can we say the same for the other products that Amsoil sells?

Fred
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post #2 of 21 Old Oct 20th, 2007, 1:12 pm
 
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Amsoil lists their coolant in their motorcycle products brochure. It is sold in many motorcycle shops in the Houston area. I used it for the last few years in my 2000LT and it ran a little cooler. I'm putting it into my 2006LT soon. Amsoil does seem to make better products and proves it with typical property sheets and is the only one I know to compare their products direct to the competition by name using standardized ASTM test methods by ASTM approved independent laboratories. None of the competitors have proven the test results wrong. They also have the best product warranties and have been making API rated 100% synthetic oils longer than anyone else.
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post #3 of 21 Old Oct 20th, 2007, 1:36 pm
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Independent tests (i.e., those not commissioned by Amsoil) conducted by MCN show that while Amsoil is certainly a good product, it is hardly superior to other synthetic lubricants. It tests better in some areas as compared to say Mobil 1, and tests worse in other areas. Of course, Amsoil advertises only the areas where they tested better and just happens to omit those where they don't.

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post #4 of 21 Old Oct 23rd, 2007, 3:51 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Independent tests (i.e., those not commissioned by Amsoil) conducted by MCN show that while Amsoil is certainly a good product, it is hardly superior to other synthetic lubricants. It tests better in some areas as compared to say Mobil 1, and tests worse in other areas. Of course, Amsoil advertises only the areas where they tested better and just happens to omit those where they don't.

Matt
Better check your facts. The MCN tests are old, incomplete and do not use standard ASTM test methods for motorcycle oils that can be repeated in any certified lab and Fred Rau of MCN on their internet website has backed off recommending car/truck oils if they are SL/SM rated unless they specifically list they meet JASO.

Amsoil has documented their motorcycle oil test results on their website and use independent top rated non-profit lab SouthWest Research Institute in San Antonio, TX for their performance test comparisons, as do many of the major oil companies. Their oil ranked #1 in their report compared to a couple of dozen motorcycle specific oils but did not finish first in every test. And they did not omit any test results. And the named competitors have yet to refute the results or provide any of their own against named competitiors. Amsoil truly is superior over all to other synthetic lubricants and prove it with published ASTM test methods against named competitors. Nobody else has proved otherwise using standard ASTM test methods.
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post #5 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2007, 7:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVipond
Better check your facts. The MCN tests are old, incomplete and do not use standard ASTM test methods for motorcycle oils that can be repeated in any certified lab and Fred Rau of MCN on their internet website has backed off recommending car/truck oils if they are SL/SM rated unless they specifically list they meet JASO.

Amsoil has documented their motorcycle oil test results on their website and use independent top rated non-profit lab SouthWest Research Institute in San Antonio, TX for their performance test comparisons, as do many of the major oil companies. Their oil ranked #1 in their report compared to a couple of dozen motorcycle specific oils but did not finish first in every test. And they did not omit any test results. And the named competitors have yet to refute the results or provide any of their own against named competitiors. Amsoil truly is superior over all to other synthetic lubricants and prove it with published ASTM test methods against named competitors. Nobody else has proved otherwise using standard ASTM test methods.
Which MCN test are you talking about? They've done at least two, and the original one is pretty old and had minimal testing performed. The later one was a two-part series and much more comprehensive.

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post #6 of 21 Old Oct 24th, 2007, 8:16 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVipond
Better check your facts. The MCN tests are old, incomplete and do not use standard ASTM test methods for motorcycle oils that can be repeated in any certified lab and Fred Rau of MCN on their internet website has backed off recommending car/truck oils if they are SL/SM rated unless they specifically list they meet JASO.

Amsoil has documented their motorcycle oil test results on their website and use independent top rated non-profit lab SouthWest Research Institute in San Antonio, TX for their performance test comparisons, as do many of the major oil companies. Their oil ranked #1 in their report compared to a couple of dozen motorcycle specific oils but did not finish first in every test. And they did not omit any test results. And the named competitors have yet to refute the results or provide any of their own against named competitiors. Amsoil truly is superior over all to other synthetic lubricants and prove it with published ASTM test methods against named competitors. Nobody else has proved otherwise using standard ASTM test methods.
I've read the test report, but saw no reference to which lab performed the tests. Where on the site does it reference SWRI?

Matt

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post #7 of 21 Old Oct 25th, 2007, 11:39 am
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I feel a religious debate coming on.
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post #8 of 21 Old Oct 25th, 2007, 12:09 pm
 
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Matt,

I read both reports. The first one was done in the 70's or 80's back when MCN was called Road Rider. The second report, 2 parts was done a few years ago. Both are so dated that they really aren't relevant. Oil formulations drastically change with each API updated specifications which is being rewritten every couple of years. Fred Rau's MCN retraction was on the most recent testing.

I didn't really care for the testing in either article. Neither was scientific, did not use standard ASTM oil test methods, and the last one only looked at a few additives, which is only a small part of the story. But I did find them interesting and informative, but hardly definitive. As a retired Shell chemist, the best car, motorcycle and gear oil brand name comparison tests I've found to date are the ones that Amsoil has published, and no oil company has refuted the results.

I called Amsoil's tech line and asked about who does Amsoil's performance testing and was told it was SWRI. They didn't publish that info for two reasons. They didn't want SWRI to be bombarded with consumer questions, and felt it was unneccesary as any ASTM certified lab can produce the same results.
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post #9 of 21 Old Oct 27th, 2007, 10:46 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVipond
Matt,

I read both reports. The first one was done in the 70's or 80's back when MCN was called Road Rider. The second report, 2 parts was done a few years ago. Both are so dated that they really aren't relevant. Oil formulations drastically change with each API updated specifications which is being rewritten every couple of years. Fred Rau's MCN retraction was on the most recent testing.

I didn't really care for the testing in either article. Neither was scientific, did not use standard ASTM oil test methods, and the last one only looked at a few additives, which is only a small part of the story. But I did find them interesting and informative, but hardly definitive. As a retired Shell chemist, the best car, motorcycle and gear oil brand name comparison tests I've found to date are the ones that Amsoil has published, and no oil company has refuted the results.

I called Amsoil's tech line and asked about who does Amsoil's performance testing and was told it was SWRI. They didn't publish that info for two reasons. They didn't want SWRI to be bombarded with consumer questions, and felt it was unneccesary as any ASTM certified lab can produce the same results.
Yes, I've found Amsoil similarly evasive in the past with respect to their tests and where they were done. That is why I have little faith in them.

I don't think any of the major oil companies have any reason to challenge their results. Amsoil's market share is so insignificant that why would they bother? It isn't like Mobil and Castrol. :-)

Which MCN issue contained Fred's retraction? I've subscribed to MCN since the beginning and don't recall seeing it.

I tried Amsoil lubricants a couple of times many years ago, both in cars and a motorcycle. I simply did not find many of their claims to hold water. My car didn't get any better gas mileage (I check every single fill-up and keep a log book in all of my vehicles). My Voyager final drive did not run quieter nor cooler with Amsoil, both claims made both by the company and the dealer that sold me the oil. Lastly, their "Amway" like marketing was always a turn-off as well. I am now starting to see their products in a few auto parts stores, but they still are hard to find and their "dealers" come and go constantly.


Matt

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post #10 of 21 Old Oct 27th, 2007, 12:54 pm
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I thought this form was not for advertising? (Amsoil in this case)

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post #11 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 8:02 am
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I don't think it is advertising as much as debating.

I use Amsoil and will continue. Seems people just love to fuss over it. Certain people have a real hard on for it. Not sure why. Facts are facts and they are more up front then ANY oil company I have seen. Oil analysis will prove it if you care to try for yourself. It is economical in price to your door, and for what is paid for Mobil I which is a true Polyalphaolefin (PAO) also, it is right in line. Only difference is Amsoil lists specifically motorcycle oils also.

Just use what flavor you want, change it regular, and it is all good.

I inquired about brake fluid from them and they don't make it as of yet.

I will use their coolant.

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post #12 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 6:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
I thought this form was not for advertising? (Amsoil in this case)
I didn't see anyone advertising, just stating their preference. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Matt

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post #13 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 8:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
I thought this form was not for advertising? (Amsoil in this case)
Is referring to the fact that Tim is an Amsoil dealer, and his opinion may be just a tad biased....

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post #14 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 8:21 pm
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If someone is selling a product .......

I feel they should be upfront in that fact before commenting on the product. There is always a bias and that is OK, just be upfront and not require readers to dig.

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post #15 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 8:47 pm
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I think there are individuals out there that have a hard on for Tim because he is an Amsoil dealer. I'll tell you the truth. I met Tim here on this forum, opened a commercial account because of the great service he provided me as a result of meeting him here.

Everybody has to do something. There is no shame in the fact that he is a dealer for Amsoil. In fact, I have never received the type of service from anyone selling oil as I have recieved from Tim. Tim, I believe that is something that you should be proud of.

I have also never met naysayers about any other brand of oil before other then amsoil. I have bought and used Mobil one. It was fine. It just happened to be about 2.00 per qt. more then amsoil. The place where I bought it provided no service at all. But, it cost me more. Will I buy it again? Probaby not.. Am I satisfied with amsoil? As satisfied as I have been with any other oil that I have purchased.

I don't see why anyone has a negative attitude about it. It seems to be a fine product. The price is competitive. There are facts to back up the quality of the product, and it meets the need.

Use it, don't use it. It is up to you. But I see no reason to not trust what facts have been communicated regarding the tests that have been performed. They have a very strong warranty and no one else to my knowledge offers that warranty. So, what is the problem????
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post #16 of 21 Old Oct 28th, 2007, 8:55 pm
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I have met Tim in person on a ride once and we actually had lunch with him. Very nice guy. And I believe Amsoil is at least as good as other major brands, and it may be better.

I just think that in a forum like this, one should clearly state any commercial interest in a product or service. OK, now back to our regular scheduled Amsoil debate...

Wolfgang

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post #17 of 21 Old Oct 29th, 2007, 2:24 pm
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I am not a moderator, nor do I play one on TV. I have no problem with debating oil, tires, intercoms, etc, as is often done around here. Like Andy wrote, it's like a religious debate.

But folks, this is not the place for this, IMHO. This thread was started as a question about AMSOIL COOLANT, until it was hijacked as another oil debate.

I am interested in the COOLANT QUESTION as well, so can we get back to that and take the Great Oil Debate, Part 355,234,109.7 to another thread, please?

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post #18 of 21 Old Oct 29th, 2007, 5:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Independent tests (i.e., those not commissioned by Amsoil) conducted by MCN show that while Amsoil is certainly a good product, it is hardly superior to other synthetic lubricants. It tests better in some areas as compared to say Mobil 1, and tests worse in other areas. Of course, Amsoil advertises only the areas where they tested better and just happens to omit those where they don't.

Matt
Seems to me that Tim was answering a question that is all. I don't believe the quote above was warranted. Especially since the question wasn't related to oil as you mentioned.

I am not currently using amsoil coolant and have not tried it but I am sure if it is meant to be used in our BMWs, it would be a competitive product. I am not an expert on the subject so that is all I will say about it.
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post #19 of 21 Old Oct 30th, 2007, 3:39 am Thread Starter
 
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Amsoil Coolant

Quote:
Originally Posted by deputy5211
I am not a moderator, nor do I play one on TV. I have no problem with debating oil, tires, intercoms, etc, as is often done around here. Like Andy wrote, it's like a religious debate.

But folks, this is not the place for this, IMHO. This thread was started as a question about AMSOIL COOLANT, until it was hijacked as another oil debate.

I am interested in the COOLANT QUESTION as well, so can we get back to that and take the Great Oil Debate, Part 355,234,109.7 to another thread, please?
Thanks Tony. All of it was interesting reading, but somehow we managed to filibuster the original question which I ask again:

Has anyone used Amsoil Coolant? I remember on the GL1800 that the factory didn't recommend any coolant that has Silica due to it's beating on the water pump. Is it safe to say that BMW doesn't recommend a coolant with Silica for the same reason? Since Amsoil is, in my estimation, a superior product for synthetic oil...can we say the same for the other products that Amsoil sells?

Fred
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post #20 of 21 Old Oct 30th, 2007, 7:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildwoodDreamer
Thanks Tony. All of it was interesting reading, but somehow we managed to filibuster the original question which I ask again:

Has anyone used Amsoil Coolant? I remember on the GL1800 that the factory didn't recommend any coolant that has Silica due to it's beating on the water pump. Is it safe to say that BMW doesn't recommend a coolant with Silica for the same reason? Since Amsoil is, in my estimation, a superior product for synthetic oil...can we say the same for the other products that Amsoil sells?

Fred
Considering that you only change it every 2-4 years,and a gallon of BMW antifreeze does 2 changes,it seems silly to use anything else. I would like to use Prestone because it is cheaper, but why bother. Trying to infer superiority on one product because of another does not work. Keep in mind that I do not use Amsoil products,never will,end of story.

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post #21 of 21 Old Nov 1st, 2007, 7:59 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager
Yes, I've found Amsoil similarly evasive in the past with respect to their tests and where they were done. That is why I have little faith in them.

I don't think any of the major oil companies have any reason to challenge their results. Amsoil's market share is so insignificant that why would they bother? It isn't like Mobil and Castrol. :-)

Which MCN issue contained Fred's retraction? I've subscribed to MCN since the beginning and don't recall seeing it.

I tried Amsoil lubricants a couple of times many years ago, both in cars and a motorcycle. I simply did not find many of their claims to hold water. My car didn't get any better gas mileage (I check every single fill-up and keep a log book in all of my vehicles). My Voyager final drive did not run quieter nor cooler with Amsoil, both claims made both by the company and the dealer that sold me the oil. Lastly, their "Amway" like marketing was always a turn-off as well. I am now starting to see their products in a few auto parts stores, but they still are hard to find and their "dealers" come and go constantly.


Matt
Amsoil is not evasive regarding their performance testing. Ask them anything you want regarding this. Amsoil publishes more comparative and technical data publicly than any other company by far. You can have complete confidence that their test data is correct using ASTM methods that any certified lab can and has duplicated.

Amsoil's market share in synthetic lubricants is significant and participates in the same API and other oil meetings as Big Oil. They know and respect Amsoil's synthetic oils and would love to have Amsoil's market share added to theirs. If fact, Amsoil was significant enough in the 70's, that Pennzoil took them to court because they thought the public might be confuse the ****** name with Pennzoil. During that time the name was changed to AMSOIL even though AMSOIL won the lawsuit. You can bet that if Amsoil's comparative test data incorrectly showed it's oil to be superior to any competitor, a law suit would be filed. They all test competitors products, but do not divulge the results. Big Oil could make oils as good as Amsoil, but they choose not to. Amsoil has the best warranty in the business.

Fred Rau's retraction appeared in the editorial section a month or two after the article was published. I found one of Fred's updates on the MCNews website regarding the use of auto oils in motorcycles:
"Without going into a whole lot of detail (our full report ran about seven pages long), the best rule of thumb is to avoid any oil with a grade rating BELOW 15. These "energy-conserving oils" contain a higher concentration of ZDDP (Zinc Dithiophosphates),which has been determined by JASO (the Japanese-American Society of Engineers) to be potentially harmful to motorcycles. While there is some indication of possible clutch slippage (minor, and only causing damage over an extended period of time that could run several years), the real danger from these oils is STARTER CLUTCH slippage. This condition would not be noticeable by the rider until the starter suddenly failed.
To be safe, stick with SG or MA (best) rated oils of 15w or higher, or SH-rated (second-best), also 15w or higher. Avoid SJ-rated oils and anything below 15-weight. Motorcycle-specific oils of 5w or 10w (or MB-rated) are primarily for competition use, and though you will notice slightly increased horsepower, smoother shifting, etc., from them, there is a potential of long-term starter clutch and drivetrain clutch damage on bikes that run a lot of road miles.
Hope that helps a bit.

Fred Rau

Motorcycle Consumer News Forum Moderator"
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