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post #1 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 1:53 pm Thread Starter
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Question valve adjustment how tight is tight?

Hello fellow bikers & lovers of LT's and life

I need some input , please.

I made the 40k service myself and have the following question regarding valve adjustment.

Situation
all intakes are within specs but the one (first cylinder top left) is veeeery tight, the test "thingi" (can't find the word in english) barely makes it through. The others are fine, all somewhere between the required specs.

Can I leave it till I make the 60k service or should I change it with a looser one?

What would you recommend?

Thank you for your input guys.
Cheers
Pat

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post #2 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 2:00 pm
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feeler gauge

its either a go or no go. if one of the options goes its good, if it does not go, its too tight. i wouldnt give any thought to one being a thousandth or two tight don
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post #3 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 4:05 pm Thread Starter
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Allright then, I let it be and check it out on the 60k service again.
Thanks a lot mate
Cheers
Pat

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post #4 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 4:54 pm
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"thingi" should be a "feeler gauge".

Too tight would be when the "normal" thickness won't go through the gap.

Can you provide the measurements?

Bob
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post #5 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 6:10 pm
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Ont thousandths too tight is just that, TOO TIGHT. Two thousandths too tight is asking for trouble.

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post #6 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 6:12 pm
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As I have said in posts here over the years, you should be able to slip the feeler gage in between the cam and lifter with two oily fingers holding the gage. If you cannot do that, it is too tight. It is VERY easy to actually start a valve opening with the feeler gage if it is "pushed" in with more force than you can develop with the two oily fingers.

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post #7 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 7:33 pm
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valve too tight

dave, i do understand you are a legend here and have helped many individuals overcome an assortment of problems and want you to get the recognization you deserve, and over the years i have even applauded you for your knowledge and open help, but honestly, how many individuals or dealers for that matter, would go through the routine if 1 valve was a thousandth tight. i cant imagine anyone pulling a cam to make this adjustment in the real world. we can agree to disagree if you want. don
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post #8 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 9:25 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoodbmw
how many individuals or dealers for that matter, would go through the routine if 1 valve was a thousandth tight.
That depends on your own level of comfort in pulling the cams. Once you've got the bike stripped down to where you can check the valve clearances, actually pulling the cams is pretty easy. Of course, I was fortunate enough to be able to watch David do it the first time, which does help.

As for dealers, it's reasons like that I do all my own service. I know I can take the time to do the job right, and I've seen too much evidence that not all dealers do the same. If you happen to have one of the good ones nearby, then be glad.

Ken
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post #9 of 45 Old Nov 21st, 2005, 9:50 pm
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Thumbs up Valves

Hey Guys

I can promise you I will do a bucket change for .001 on the tight side. Not to would be asking for problems..To tight on the exhaust side will cause a build up of heat and poor exhaust flow..the hotter the valve gets the tighter it will become
On the intake side, means lower fuel/air mixture, running lean, loss in power and a build up of heat.

Tight is BAD!!!!!

.003 too open, I would not touch.

Plus most people do not know how to use a feeler gage, you can easily force a .006 feeler gage into a .004 intake or exhaust valve. I saw where some guys had checked their valves and bent up the feeler gages until they were useless....and said that there valves were still in tolerance.

I have a set of gages that are 25 yrs old..and they are not rusty...LOL...or bent up

Just my 2 cents worth

Joey Fletcher
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post #10 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 12:39 am
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At 24K miles I had one intake valve that was 0.001 in. too tight. I read up on the procedure posted by Scot Marburger on his www.gunsmoke.com web site, and with my wife's help, removed the intake cam and replaced one bucket.

Do you love your engine ?????

- Bob

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post #11 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 12:53 am
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Out of spec is out of spec. Go get your valves adjusted.

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post #12 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 3:56 am
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We do disagree totally. I know for sure my dealer always adjusted valves that were too tight, I talked to the service manager and head mechanic about just that one time. I certainly have done all of mine over time. I absolutely would not run one 0.001" tight. 0.001" loose I would let go and check it next time, as it probably will tighten back up anyway.

Once you have the side of the bike stripped down to check the valves, adjusting one really is not all that much extra work, not worth skipping. If you do skip one 0.001 too tight, most likely by next check it will be even tighter. Run one too long like that and you greatly increase the chance that that valve will start to erode, and you (or the next owner) will have to pay for a valve job before it should normally be needed.

Skipping valve adjustments is false economy.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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post #13 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 4:45 am Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

WOW. . . . now that is what I call great support!!

Many thanx to you all, each one of you guys did a great job!!!
Reading the discussion helped me a lot to have a view on it from different angles.


I also asked the german forum
http://www.bmw-bike-forum.info/k1200...pic.php?t=3564

and got to the following ultimate and only possible solution after intense analysis of the matter.

It needs to be changed if I want to sleep well.

As a help I work with the
- K1200RS valve.doc from gunsmoke,
- the BMW K1200LT CD,
- the right tools,
- plenty of time if needed,
- music and maybe some coffee.
- 1 new tappet (A1 intake, top left first one)
- Threebond 1209
- 1 new valve cover gasket

- I think that's all I need


I will keep
- the old tappet (might be usable for another valve in the future)

I will throw away
- the old valve cover gasket

By the way @Joey- Yeah, not everybody knows how to use a feeler gauge instantly the right way. So come and teach me. How is it supposed to be used propperly?

As by Dshealey
Quote:you should be able to slip the feeler gage in between the cam and lifter with two oily fingers holding the gage.

or what?

I can teach you a thing or two about cooking up a storm .
In my years I saw many one cooking their fillet well done and thinking that's in within specs.

Thank you all again
Pat

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80' XJ 650 red
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post #14 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 3:19 pm
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If I remember correctly, a small daub of sealer helps with the valve cover gasket. Unfortunately, I don't remember what type of sealer.

Got any good salsa receipts?

I've been using one red bell pepper, one onion, 3-5 yellow chili peppers, 4-6 Cerrano peppers, 2 limes, Cilantro, a little garlic powder, two cans of diced tomatoes, one can of tomato past. Let set for two days.

Bob
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post #15 of 45 Old Nov 22nd, 2005, 6:38 pm Thread Starter
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Smile

"sorry, I know, off topic"

Hey Bob

Sugar is the magic ingredient! See, sugar can act as a sweetener when used in some sufficient quantity or as a stabilizer!

Now be ready mate; if you use less sugar than you would need to sweeten your stuff, then the sugar actually stabilizes the taste without sweetening it.
This is specially important for any food that is not prepared and eaten on the spot, for example; marinades, soups, dressings, anything and also salsas.

So for your recipe you might want to try this;
use additionally
- a halve a teaspoon of sugar
- a quarter cup of fine oliveoil
- a halve a teaspoon of cuminseeds (not european (only comes from France), rather mexican one
- a half a teaspoon of corianderseeds
(roast the cumin and corianderseeds (cilantroseeds) light brown in a pan without any fat, take them out and crusch them finely. Roasting gives the taste, like coffee = lighter roast= medium taste, darker roast=stronger taste)

You did not list it, but I am sure you already added some salt to your recipe. With salt it is the same, it is not a spice but a mineral and acts as an enhancer of taste. If you add too much, it becomes what is commonly called "too salty". Less is more and I suggest that you try using a combination of celery salt and sea salt (whereby the sea salt needs to be ground finely first).

With the exact quantities you have to play a bit around. Cooking is not as an exact science as working with a feeler gauge it is more about personal preferences, just like "pimping" your ride.

Cheers
Pat

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80' XJ 650 red
If you don't respect yourself who else will?

Last edited by pcra; Nov 22nd, 2005 at 6:45 pm.
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post #16 of 45 Old Dec 14th, 2005, 2:47 pm Thread Starter
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Update

@becketma
I did not throw away that splendid gasket but bought some Silicone Head-Gasket Sealant from LOCTITE and added it with a thin film to the open sides. Sealed perfectly.

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post #17 of 45 Old Dec 27th, 2005, 7:51 pm
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Don't worry...

Ahhhhh worry warts unite...

After machining and assembling about a billion engines...I wouldn't worry
about a thou or two....
Valve clearance is just a band aid for manufacturing intolerances and heat
changes.... If it was .003 or more out.. it's an all around good idea to act...

other than that, let it go.... never seen a problem on any engine doing it that way.. remember, if you have any clearance.. the valve is technically closed....
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post #18 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 12:11 am
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Exclamation

Another misinformed person arises! No matter how many "billion" engines you may have assembled, you are misinformed on the mechanics of cam operated valves.

I have stated here more than once that exhaust valves especially are subject to seat/valve erosion starting, and it will progress QUICKLY, if clearances are below manufacturer stated minimums, which are just that, MINIMUM acceptable clearance. Stated valve clearances have nothing to do with manufacturing tolerances. That is what valve adjustment schemes (screws, shims, lifters) are for. The clearance is what has to be maintained within engineered limits AFTER adjustments have taken care of the manufacturing tolerances. No engine manufacturer on the face of the earth states their clearance ranges to be "about" some range of measurement, but to be exactly within the limits.

The cams are ground with clearance ramps which take up the valve clearance slowly a few degrees before the actual rapid opening starts. This saves the valve train from shock loads, and makes it quieter. If you run the valves tight, the valve starts to open slowly on the clearance ramp. That is murder for valves, especially exhaust ones, which are cracked open with high pressure hot gasses behind them. They are meant to open quickly so that the exhaust gasses do not spend a lot of time at supersonic speeds over the valve/seat surfaces. If opened slower than intended by the clearance ramp, the hot gas is supersonic through the minute crack much longer than designed for, and erosion starts. As soon as this starts, the little micro cracks formed grow rapidly, until you have a burned valve or seat.

If you have such a lackadaisical view of the engineers work, I hope no one I know ever gets stuck with one of your engines!

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #19 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 6:58 pm
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Smile Dear Dave...

Dearest dave,,, you sure can talk ..You missed your calling.. you should have been a lawyer....

First off,, there are no clearance ramps...
The only clearance is on the BASE CIRCLE of the camshaft.....
Not on the ramps of which there are opening and closing ramps....

Second...Do you really think a few thou makes the difference between
gasses moving at super or subsonic speeds?????

Micro cracks???

Metallurgy on valves is such that they can stand exhaust heat by A LOT...

Not just a small amount..... Warranty testing anyone...??

Ever check valves on a HOT engine??? GEEZ,are they different????

Like I said.. manufacturing tolerances and heat....

Did you know hydraulic lifter systems technically run with no lash or virtually
no clearance...

I have personally run valves on k engines .003 too tight and they stayed that way for 100 k plus miles more than once and guess what no problemo...

And still running....by the way....

If you run them a little tight you will be decreasing the on seat time by an
extremely small amount time wise... emphasis on extremely....
And emphasis on time cause that's what we're talking about...


Not enough to make any difference you could measure....

If they didn't close then you have a problem.. no seat time...

I don't just assemble them but, could MAKE you any part you need for an engine....Yes really...

The central idea is I said I have let them go at .003 tight but it's probably
a good idea to take some action..but at .002 I wouldn' sweat it...


And yeah,the FACT that I've seen this to be true for so long on so many engines.. doesn't mean anything RIGHT???

Engineers are good and bad right?? Didn't they design the vega??

By the way, we built some of the die cast dies for the Vega engine block..

And yes it was die-cast...

A little tight and still running...Ran all 5 nevada 1100's w/ valves a little tight and still have the same bikes...Guess I just got lucky ....





Why not adjust them within .0002 if you need to be safe....
When you get back from the bureau of standards recalibrating your feeler
gauges..let everybody know...


Love always......................

I'm not saying you're a bad guy.. heck, I don't even know you..
We disagree on this issue...

Bet we all can't wait for the fire storm after this one... yyyeeeeeooowwww!!
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post #20 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 7:01 pm
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Smile Oh yeah..

Valve clearance specs are a RANGE...NOT MINIMUMS...
One IS A MINIMUM...ONE IS A MAXIMUM...therefore a range of recommended
tolerance....
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post #21 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 7:32 pm
 
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Boy, those last couple a comments were hotter than a too tight exhaust valve running at subsonic speed!
It is such a hassle to get all the plastic off to just check the valves, why not change out the tappets if they are below the MINIMUM specification. I'm going with Dave on this one. And thanks Dave for the cam knowledge... that was good stuff.
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post #22 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 7:52 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superd
One IS A MINIMUM...
Right, which means if you are lower than that reading, you are OUT OF SPEC. So just replace the buckets to adjust them back in. It's a trivial job, especially once you've gotten far enough in to check the clearances in the first place.

You may choose to let things go a bit tight, based on your experiences and your own tolerance level. But a general recommendation to do so isn't really the best way of looking at this. BMW has been known to be a bit conservative with their maintenance specs, but they are set as such for valid reasons. If you have the experience and comfort level to run things out of spec, then so be it, for your bike. For everyone else, just change the buckets and get back to riding without worry.

BTW, I've been fortunate enough to work with David several times, and I trust his judgement more than most BMW dealers. He does know of what he speaks.

Ken
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'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
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post #23 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 8:08 pm
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Question I'll stick with those I know

You might want to fill in your site profile. That way we'll know a little more about you and whether to accept what you have to say as valid. It's just a suggestion.

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post #24 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 9:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superd
First off,, there are no clearance ramps...
The only clearance is on the BASE CIRCLE of the camshaft.....
Not on the ramps of which there are opening and closing ramps....
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/mot...ows-clear.html
http://mail.symuli.com/vw/camp2.html
http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/43418/index2.html
http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/camterminology.html
And there are MANY more to chose from.
Quote:
Second...Do you really think a few thou makes the difference between
gasses moving at super or subsonic speeds?????
Absolutely. If the valve is being opened on the low rate clearance ramps, the gap between the valve head and seat is small for too long. The high combustion pressures cause the hot gas to stream out at higher speed until the valve opens a little further, then the flow can slow slightly. Supersonic speeds of hot gas erode seats much faster than subsonic speeds. I did take fluid dynamics years ago, and this is elementary.
Quote:
Micro cracks???
It was a poor choice of word. It is really small eroded lines that appear like cracks, but are surface only.
Quote:
Metallurgy on valves is such that they can stand exhaust heat by A LOT...
Not just a small amount..... Warranty testing anyone...??
Ever check valves on a HOT engine??? GEEZ,are they different????
Like I said.. manufacturing tolerances and heat....
As I said, manufacturing tolerances have NOTHING to do with valve lash settings. The ADJUSTMENTS made to achieve the proper lash are what makes up for the manufacturing tolerances, NOT the required lash.
Quote:
Did you know hydraulic lifter systems technically run with no lash or virtually
no clearance...
Well, yes. Doesn't everyone? Cams for hydraulic lifters are ground DIFFERENTLY than for mechanically adjusted lifters. The clearance ramps, which cannot be totally done away with, are made as short as possible for hydraulic lifters.
Quote:
I have personally run valves on k engines .003 too tight and they stayed that way for 100 k plus miles more than once and guess what no problemo...
And still running....by the way....
Lucky, dude.
Quote:
If you run them a little tight you will be decreasing the on seat time by an
extremely small amount time wise... emphasis on extremely....
And emphasis on time cause that's what we're talking about...
It is not the total seat time that we are talking about here, it is the time that the valve is barely cracked open. Engine designers try to keep that at absolute minimum, and want the valve to open rapidly as soon as it starts to move. They do NOT want the valve to start opening slowly, as they do if adjusted too tight, and start opening on the clearance ramp, which is a much slower movement than the actual opening ramp.
Quote:
Not enough to make any difference you could measure....
If they didn't close then you have a problem.. no seat time...
I don't just assemble them but, could MAKE you any part you need for an engine....Yes really...
That means little. I was a Tool Maker for quite a few years also, before I went back to school to become an engineer. I could make parts too when I was a Tool Maker, but that did not mean I understood the engineering behind them. Wanted to though, so I went back to school.
Quote:
The central idea is I said I have let them go at .003 tight but it's probably
a good idea to take some action..but at .002 I wouldn' sweat it...
I sure hope no one here actually starts letting their valves go tight based on your statements! They are way too easy to just set correctly than take a non calculated chance on needing an expensive valve job way before it's time.
Quote:
And yeah,the FACT that I've seen this to be true for so long on so many engines.. doesn't mean anything RIGHT???
I spent about 8 years involved with drag racing engines back in the late 1960s. People were purposely adjusting valves tight to gain a little opening time. Slightly increased power, greatly increased incidence of burned valves resulted. The smart ones learned fast, and stopped that practice!
Quote:
Engineers are good and bad right?? Didn't they design the vega??
Yes, there have been some engineering mistakes made in every engineering field known to man. Some really tragic. Fortunately, they are minute in comparison to the engineering successes. Engineers, and the engineering community learn from the mistakes, and continuious improvements are made because of that learning. If valve lash settings being widened would make any improvement at all, and not at the expense of reduced life/reliability, the automotive engineers involved would likely do so. It would reduce manufacturing costs if the settings could be widened.
Quote:
By the way, we built some of the die cast dies for the Vega engine block..
And yes it was die-cast...
A little tight and still running...Ran all 5 nevada 1100's w/ valves a little tight and still have the same bikes...Guess I just got lucky ....
Why not adjust them within .0002 if you need to be safe....
When you get back from the bureau of standards recalibrating your feeler
gauges..let everybody know...
I have tried not to make ridiculous statements, I see you don't have that will power.
Quote:
Love always......................
I'm not saying you're a bad guy.. heck, I don't even know you..
We disagree on this issue...
I have no reason to think you are a "bad guy" either. I just think you have been lulled into complacency by good luck, or perceived results that may not be real if you were to examine the valves and seats on one of these engines that has run tight exhaust valves for an extended period.
Quote:
Bet we all can't wait for the fire storm after this one... yyyeeeeeooowwww!!
[/QUOTE]
It will not be much of a storm, just a couple smoking embers. The great majority of people will just go on and adjust valves to manufacturer's specs, since there is practically nothing to gain by not doing so, and a reasonable probability of future problems if they don't. Most reasonable people will not take the chance.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #25 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 9:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superd
Valve clearance specs are a RANGE...NOT MINIMUMS...
One IS A MINIMUM...ONE IS A MAXIMUM...therefore a range of recommended
tolerance....
We were discussing letting valves go TIGHT only, only the minimum setting was being discussed. No one said anything about letting valves go loose, which is a pretty moot point anyway on the LT, or any other cam over valve engine. The valves always wear tight assuming normal wear. If you get any actually wearing loose, it is a bad sign, either cam or lifter is wearing abnormally, or even worse, the cam bearing surfaces or head bores are wearing. That can be REALLY expensive to fix!

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
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post #26 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 10:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
It is not the total seat time that we are talking about here, it is the time that the valve is barely cracked open. Engine designers try to keep that at absolute minimum, and want the valve to open rapidly as soon as it starts to move. They do NOT want the valve to start opening slowly, as they do if adjusted too tight, and start opening on the clearance ramp, which is a much slower movement than the actual opening ramp.
AND tight clearances extend the total time the valve is off its seat, decreasing the *very* important valve-to-valve seat contact time during which the valve transfers heat to the seat (and thence to the head). Less heat transfer time = higher exhaust valve temp and accelerated valve deterioration.

Just piling on from the peanut gallery

Mark Neblett
Fairfax, VA
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post #27 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 10:18 pm
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Smile Lots of time....

You really do have a lot of time.....
My congrats on your engineering degree... do you have one... good....
Smokey Yunick didn't...Was he less than an engineer....
I don't really have to answer that one....

As far as total heat due to seat time.....
Then I guess any cam with longer duration and lift would automatically
burn valves right....???

And this would change seat time more than any valve adjustment ever could.


The change to a longer duration would alter seat time more than .002 tight on any stock cam....anyday.....

Would my rb racing turbo k1200gt w/ 220 + RWHP BE EXPOSED TO MORE EXHAUST VALVE HEAT THAN MY K12 LT WITH VALVES .002 TOO TIGHT????

YOU BET.. BY A LOT....

ALSO STILL RUNNING....

IF THERE WERE NO INTOLERANCES...ALL SHIMS WOULD ALWAYS BE MADE THE SAME THICKNESS FROM THE FACTORY..RIGHT....

AND WOULD ONLY BE CHANGED DUE TO WEAR ETC. FROM THAT POINT ON...
THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE...

I COULD PLOT THE CHANGE WITH MASTERCAM THAT A .002 CHANGE IN CLEARANCE WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE ON THE TANGENCY OF RAMP VS. VALVE
BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU IT WOULD BE MINIMAL....

MY GUESS WOULD BE ABOUT 3 DEGREES OF CAM ROTATION....

A RAMP BEGINS AT THE POINT WHEN CLEARANCE IS GONE....
AND ENDS WHEN CLEARANCE RETURNS....

WHAT A CONCEPT ....


YEAH..BEEN LUCKY FOR 30 PLUS YEARS.....

IF YOU WERE A GOOD TOOLMAKER YOU MIGHT STILL BE AT IT...

GENERALLY PAYS BETTER THAN MOST ENGINEERS...

NOTHING AGAINST THE DEGREE..BUT, IT'S NOT EVERYTHING...

OPPENHEIMER MAY HAVE DESIGNED THE BOMB BUT TOOLMAKERS MADE IT...

REALLY THEY NEED EACH OTHER....ONE CAN'T EXIST WITHOUT THE OTHER...
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post #28 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 11:10 pm
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I am not going to continue a battle of knowledge with an unarmed person. The way you have totally missed the main points of the clearance ramps, even with links to sites that explain it, makes me realize you will never get it, or just don't want to. Most likely the latter.

Go ahead and run your engines anyway you please. Just don't expect the vast majority of thinking people to do likewise.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #29 of 45 Old Dec 28th, 2005, 11:40 pm
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Smile Clearance RAMP..

Hmmm.. clearance ramps... not all terms are universal from manufacturer to
manufacturer...

According to the article a clearance ramp is part of the transitional area from
the base circle to opening or closed.. easy enough...
Yeah yeah flanks etc...

I'm more concerned about the actual transition when the valve begins to physically move.... .002 doesn't change it enough degree wise to even consider... As far as the sixties goes.. just about every metal formulation in valves/seats/fuels has changed... big time....

Back to the turbo engine.... gets those valves way hotter with total volume
BTU wise of heat than any reasonable valve adjustment could ever dream of..

That's what a reasonable thinking person would know...

Emailed this stuff to rb racing/pro motor engineering /robert yates racing..
( SOME GUYS I WORKED WITH,,) THEY'RE STILL CHUCKLING...
oh yeah.. they said it wouldn't matter.. the .002 that is....

Real world beats crapper articles just about always...

Didn't M.I.T. say it couldn't possibly go superonic and stay stable...

Good thing those garage guys tweaked yaegers tail wing configuration....

AMF...
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post #30 of 45 Old Dec 29th, 2005, 12:39 am
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Don't worry about it, David. The fact that he believes all the RB Racing hype tells it all. Nothing left to see here, just move along . . .

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #31 of 45 Old Dec 29th, 2005, 2:16 am
 
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But...Wait!

What about the lubricant?

(sorry, couldn't help it)
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post #32 of 45 Old Dec 29th, 2005, 3:41 am
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Who the hell are you? Eight posts and you stir up a s**t storm! Opinions are always welcome here. That's why I stay tuned in. But com'on, no information on you really hurts your creditability. David and his theories do not need an endorsement from me to be creditable but I have seen him work and his testimony is several high milage bikes. What's yours?

2005 K1200 LT "Graphite Graydude Metallic"

Todd "Graydude" Ask me why I'm the best Realtor you've ever met!

IBA#22266
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post #33 of 45 Old Dec 29th, 2005, 7:38 am Thread Starter
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@superd
Why do you need to yell and shout with big letter statements?
It was my thread initially and I had to get some more input in order to get MY OWN (yelling now) opinion broadened by others experience. . . .

Guess what, it worked perfect. The guys here and the others from the german forum, they all participated and shared there SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE about THE K1200LT (shouting again).

And me, I made my own decision and also stated this one on this thread, it was something like;

"It needs to be changed if I want to sleep well."

It was not "the engineer requires that. . . . "

No, it was my decision to do the right thing.

Respect that or leave for good.

99' K12LT champagne
80' XJ 650 red
If you don't respect yourself who else will?
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post #34 of 45 Old Dec 31st, 2005, 10:30 pm
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Hello again...

You want credentials.....and info on me....
And you would believe me anyway???? hmmmm...
As far as RB racing hype... I have experience with quite a few kits from them... All worked very well.. know of anyone doing it better???
How many turbo beemers have you guys actually built and ridden..
Probably zero...Your slide rulers predicted too much valve heat....

Can't resist the humorous digs... You guys got me good too,, ouch!!!

I see david HAD A BIKE BUT IT'S TOTALED NOW AND HE MAY HAVE ONE IN THE FUTURE??

Seriously..the RB stuff works fine....

Shit storm??? Just expressing 40 plus years of observations...and facts..

Take it easy..cool off..i'm not hot about this...

Just a forum.. let's start 2006 on a good note and leave this in the past..

You guys can find me most likely on the organozed ride to mexico next fall
w/ the rhinewest group....if it takes place...

Keep the shiny side up.... Mark... Woodstock il....

I do admit my advice was a little pre mature... Telling someone to ignore
some out of spec stuff is not the best advice.. even if they won't melt..

Can I tell you about break in methods and how quickly I use synthetic oil???

Wow.. here we go again #[email protected]^&*,......

Happy 2006.. Sorry for stirring the pot....MARK.
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post #35 of 45 Old Dec 31st, 2005, 10:49 pm
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Perhaps you are unaware you can provide info on yourself as part of your member profile (left click on someones user name and select public profile to see what we are talking about. The people you are arguing with are respected members of this community. We know who they are and in many cases have personally met, ridden, or worked on our toys with them. You are unknown, no idea where you live or your background. David has earned our respect many times over. For the time being you are viewed as an anonymous pot stirrer who may or may not have any qualifications to speak on this subject. Introduce yourself and give us some hint of who you are in your profile and perhaps we will eventually hear your point of view and come to respect you as much as we respect David, Ken, and the other members who have posted their comments here.
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post #36 of 45 Old Jan 1st, 2006, 8:44 pm
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Thanks for the reply, Mark. We've built quite a little community here, and several of these guys have well over 100K miles on LT's (not to mention various other bikes). Some of them know more about this bike than many dealers do, and all are willing to share generously of their knowledge and time.

Like any other community, each individual's exact qualifications may vary, but we all share a passion for riding, wrenching, and socializing with other like-minded people. Some of the folks aren't that mechanically inclined but rely on the old guard to provide guidance and detailed information, whether they're planning on doing the work themselves or just want to understand what their dealer is talking about. So we consciously try to keep the info posted here as accurate and up to date as we can.

Every so often, a newbie comes in and questions the conventional wisdom of this site. Maybe they have a point or some new info, maybe they don't. But invariably if it's perceived as an attack or put down of the old guard, then other members will jump to their defense (not that most of these guys need help there).

If the newbie "gets it" and tries to fit in, then they usually become another valuable asset to the community. I can think of a few people off the top of my head that fit this description. If they don't get it and continue in the same belligerent manner, then they'll invariably get back what they give until they just get fed up and leave. That's pretty common for any sort of internet list or other social group.

It sounds like you have some hard-earned experience that could be a benefit. I'm also sure there is lots of info here that you'll find useful, as we all have. We hope you choose to stick around and share.

And for the record, my engineering degree came because I enjoyed taking things apart and figuring out how they worked. I wanted to supplement my practical experience with more theory and design, so I went after the formal degree. I know lots of theoretical engineers that can't change a spark plug, but fortunately we get a pretty well-rounded crew around here.

I hope to see you on the road at some point. Maybe at CCR?

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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post #37 of 45 Old Jan 16th, 2006, 4:14 am
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Question

Bike is stripped for 36k service. 1 of the inlet valves is a little tight (0055). I've read all the posts in this thread and I know if I leave it I'll end up having to take it all apart again at the next 6000k service for my 'peace of mind'.

So I've read the gunsmoke guide (about 10 times!) and it looks fairly straightforward. My question is, when re-assembling is it really as simple as aligning the pin on the camshaft with the hole on the gear, (assuming I've zip tied the gear to the chain). The procedure with the BMW tool looks more complicated. I don't want to get this wrong as the implications of messing up my valve timing don't bear thinking about!

Also can anybody tell me what a size 30 drill is in new money (mm).

Thanks

Steve
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post #38 of 45 Old Jan 16th, 2006, 6:48 am Thread Starter
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yes steve, it is that easy.just go ahead, follow the gunsmoke instructions. most important is that you use 2 zip ties per wheel.

You will see what you are doing and what impact it has when busy doing it, it is a straight forward thing.

as for the size 30 drill bit, I used a 3mm drill bit (the smooth rear end) and it worked just fine.

I did the thinking myself with the informational help of others. I changed it. I am happy.

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80' XJ 650 red
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post #39 of 45 Old Jan 16th, 2006, 8:57 am
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Smile Yup, it's that easy.

A #30 drill bit is .1285" according to my chart.
I think I used a 1/8" drill bit. (.125")

Duane

Check the obvious first!
01 LT Champagne "The Starship"
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post #40 of 45 Old Jan 16th, 2006, 5:40 pm
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Steve:
FYI I am finishing the exact same procedure on my '02. Pulled the intake sprocket & cam (exhaust was all OK); still disasembled waiting for a new 2.80 mm bucket from BMW. Bought more assembly lube for the buckets, cam & sprocket. Setting the drill bit took some work (wasn't sure that it was completely seated against the tension chain). The #30 drill bit is very snug and took me some time to feel it seat after rotating the rear wheel while in gear until it slid into position. Borrowed a torque wrench calabrated in newtons/meter (my 1/2 inch torqure wrench is calabrated in Ft/Lbs). Hope to have it together in a few days. Will keep you posted.

Chuck J

02 K1200LT (Black Beauty)

New friends make it all worthwhile!!! Smile, its catching.
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post #41 of 45 Old Jan 19th, 2006, 2:55 pm
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Smile Thank you

Thanks to the guide from GUNSMOKE and advice from here I've successfully changed 1 of my buckets. If you can strip the bike to do the valve check you'll have no problems changing a bucket , just take your time and read the instructions carefully.

Just a shame it took me 3 attempts to seal the fuel pump/filter assembly, and how you are supposed to get to 70 nm of torque without the plate turning is beyond me!

My bike is now back together after the 36k/2 year service and at a fraction of the cost the dealer would charge, thanks mainly to reading the nuggets of information produced by the people from this site, I can honestly say that I learn something useful about my bike every time I log on, so a public thank you to all of you who take the trouble to enlighten us mechanically challenged folk.
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post #42 of 45 Old Jan 19th, 2006, 9:23 pm
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Up-date

Well I installed the new 2.80 bucket; replaced the cam & sprocket (piece of cake with all the advice gleaned from here); torqued the caps and re-checked the valve lash. One of the 2 buckets I swapped is too tight. No more wire ties so wait till tomorrow to change it out with the last one replaced. (2.85 for a 2.90) Many thanks for all the info and links. Tomorrow is a new day to start all over again. What an education!

Chuck J

02 K1200LT (Black Beauty)

New friends make it all worthwhile!!! Smile, its catching.
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post #43 of 45 Old Jan 20th, 2006, 9:13 pm
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Final Chapter

Just got back from a short ride confirming that everything went back together correctly. THANK YOU ALL!!! Your guidance and references have given me the confidence to tackle another project. Everyone who participated in this thread helped; sometimes spirited debate helps bring weight to an argument and allows interested parties to discern the proper course of action for themselves. Without persuasive argument there is only one point of view. I am truely greatful for all of your assistance.

Chuck J

02 K1200LT (Black Beauty)

New friends make it all worthwhile!!! Smile, its catching.
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post #44 of 45 Old Jan 21st, 2006, 7:02 am
 
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Thanks for posting the info, i read all of it and learnt a lot.
I will probably never use the knowledge, but nice to know.
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post #45 of 45 Old Jan 21st, 2006, 7:20 pm
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For anyone who has found the info posted here useful, and especially if you've saved lots of cash by doing your own work or saved frustration by not being stranded for a simple problem, just remember there is a Donate button at the bottom center of every page.

And if you've spent all that saved money and maybe a bit more on farkles that you didn't know you needed until you read about them here, at least we can say you've been warned.

Ken
Pacific NorthWet
'13 Dark Graphite Metallic K16GTLD, 24K miles
'09 Magnesium Beige Metallic K13GT, 63K miles
'03 Anthracite Metallic K12LTC, 66K miles
'02 Mauve Metallic K12LTC, 106K miles and sold
BMWLT#143, IBA# 366, MOA# 111996, SCMA# 24032


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