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post #1 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 4:12 am Thread Starter
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Comments from BMW Germany on Fraud & Deceit

This was recieved from BMW Germany this afternoon. This email gives a good understanding of how BMW Germany feels about their customers. My email to them is at the bottom of the page. Another classic example of a big corporation thinking they are better than everyone else.

Dear Mr. Smith,
thank you for your additional information. I will discuss your e-mail with my colleagues of our subsidiary. However the further communication will be done by BMW Philippines.



Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

With best regards,



Eriberto Gamilla

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

BMW AG

BMW Motorrad

Eriberto A. Gamilla

Gebietsleiter After Sales / Area Manager After Sales

Hufelandstrasse 8a

80788 München

Germany

Telefon: +49-89-382-30038

Fax: +49-89-382-7030038

E-Mail: [email protected]

URL: http://www.bmw-motorrad.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaft

Vorstand: Norbert Reithofer, Vorsitzender,

Frank-Peter Arndt, Ernst Baumann, Klaus Draeger, Michael Ganal, Stefan Krause

Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Joachim Milberg

Sitz und Registergericht:: München HRB 42243

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Von: EAM [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juni 2007 04:09
An: Gamilla Eriberto, UX-VA-1
Betreff: Re: BMW Motorrad Direct



Dear Mr. Gamilla:

This will be my last letter to you as I am finished with BMW period. From this point forward I will let my attorneys do all my talking. As of last Friday, June 1, 2007 BMW Philippines picked up the GT from my home and the agreement I had with BMW expired on May 31, 2007. My attorney's have already filed or will be filing criminal suits against BMW. Just in case Germany is not aware of what BMW Philippines has done, I will inform you. First the fire that destroyed my bike is and will be an issue. Second, BMW sold me a 2005 LT, reregistered as a 2005 and in fact it was only a 2003 model. Third the LT was registered as having one cylinder, not four as it has. This was done to avoid custom and taxes. It makes me very mad to think that BMW would want its reputation ruined over this whole situation. I had asked BMW Philippines to bring a new motorcycle to my home and all of this would have been over. It may take sometime for this case to get through the legal system and I assure that I will do everything in my power to let the world know how BMW treats their customers. At this point in time I will never own another BMW and will probably buy a Honda Goldwing or Harley Davidson. BMW can not continue to produce defective products and expect to get away with it.

Just wanted to send this so I know that Germany knows the truth of what is going on here in the Philippines



Regards

Bill Smith

Last edited by cherokee123; Jun 4th, 2007 at 4:21 am. Reason: Misspelled Word
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post #2 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 5:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokee123
This was recieved from BMW Germany this afternoon. This email gives a good understanding of how BMW Germany feels about their customers. My email to them is at the bottom of the page. Another classic example of a big corporation thinking they are better than everyone else.

Dear Mr. Smith,
Thank you for your additional information. I will discuss your e-mail with my colleagues of our subsidiary. However the further communication will be done by BMW Philippines....
It's arrogant, Bill. I would hope for a little more out of Der Helmut Kraut, after all you have been through!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #3 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 12:51 pm
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Bill, good luck with this. It's amazing that BMW corporate doesn't step in to make this right.

I had a confrontation with BMW North America a couple years ago. I purchased a certified '02 530 from a BMW dealer (Canton Ohio). Beforehand I asked if the car had ever been in an accident. The dealer's reply was "not to our knowledge" and "it passed our gazillion point certification procedure". I purchased the car without a third party inspection, since after all, it was certified by BMW.

One week later I discovered the car had been in a bad rear end collision and had moderate frame damage. The dealer told me the sale was final and refused to take the car back. I then contacted BMW NA who suggested I work this out with the dealer

This is also when I found out how useless a BMW certified warranty actually is. The dealer is allowed to certify any POS they want. The BMW certified warranty only applies to factory defects and not to any damage caused by a collision or abuse. As an example, BMW refused to repair a transmission problem caused by a collision which happened "before" the car was certified

Well after 4 months of dealing with BMW NA they finally agreed to have the call looked at by one of their field agents. I also called an attorney to file a suit against the dealer. Two weeks later the dealer agreed to take back the car and refund my money.

This was the worst consumer experience I've ever been through. I will never buy another BMW automobile and would think long and hard about replacing my '02 LT with another BMW model. You'd think BMW Corporate would have a bit more concern about their reputation and quickly resolve issues caused by a few unscrupulous dealers.

John
'02 K1200LT
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post #4 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 8:02 pm
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I can't say that I would expect anything more than a clean and simple message from BMW after the message you sent. But then, that is probably the same message that just about everyone gets. The person who replied to your message does not have the authority to do any different.

It would be nice if BMW finally get around to solving your issue. I completely agree that they should be held responsible and they should come down with an iron fist on the dealer. You do have to remember though that they are a giant corporation, they are going to protect themselves in every way possible. In this case, that meant to send you a pleasant message acknowledging receipt and promising little else.

This may eventually get handled to your satisfaction, but I think your lawyer will get more done than you ever would. Thanks for keeping us updated and bravo for making it all public knowledge.
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post #5 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 8:32 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanek
I had a confrontation with BMW North America a couple years ago.
The short sightedness of some corporations never ceases to amaze me! I totally agree with you, John. Take your business elsewhere. Example: After 20 years of owning only Fords, I will never buy another due to absolutely SHIT quality control. Cost to Ford (at the rate I buy cars): $250k+ over my lifetime!

Based on what your saying, there is no advantage to dealing with a certified dealer and having the pleasure of paying more for it. Might as well buy from the shyster lot on the corner and save a buck. Apparently, the need for careful independent inspection is the same.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #6 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 10:54 pm
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What did you expect them to say, after verbally flipping them off like that? I don't doubt you have a legitimate grievance with BMW. However, I fail to see what you were trying to accomplish with that letter. If you're truly litigating, then you should have done that and not send a threatening letter. If you were trying to get BMW to intervene on your behalf, you went about it the wrong way. What I would have written would have been something like this.

"Dir sirs,

I'm writing to you as a last ditch effort to make good on my BMW motorcycle which burst into flames and burnt to a crisp. Additionally, it would appear that BMW knowingly misrepresented the year of manufacture of the bike, which my lawyer tells me is illegal. BMW Phillipines has been unable or unwilling to resolve this issue to my satisfaction.

In case you're not aware my case, this is the history. [insert history here]

I am asking BMW Motorrad to intervene on my behalf and settle this issue. What I am demanding is the following resolution. [insert what you want from BMW here]

If this matter is not resolved in a timely manor [30 days, whatever], I will be forced to turn the matter over to my lawyers, and to file criminal charges against BMW.

Regards..."

Or maybe you've already sent a letter like that. I dunno. But the letter you sent really does nothing than basically say FU to BMW, and their response was perfectly reasonable.

Good luck, Bill.
-joel

Last edited by kdog; Jun 4th, 2007 at 11:07 pm.
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post #7 of 23 Old Jun 4th, 2007, 11:12 pm
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When it comes to a pi$$in contest, the guy with the biggest hose and best aim wins.

So, the best one can hope is to allow a "face saving" resolution/extracation for all parties, from a bad situation.

The bottom line is just that.. "the bottom line". If it's cheaper to pay you off, they'll do that.

I bet there is at least a floor full of lawyers paid to handle these things... sounds like you've engaged that process... good luck.

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post #8 of 23 Old Jun 5th, 2007, 10:37 am
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The letter you got from BMW sounds very similar to the letter I got from Kawasaki after my Voyager XII left me stranded five times in the three years I owned it, and every time I took it to the dealer, they'd fix one thing and break two others. Kawasaki just said "your dealer reports that you are currently riding your motorcycle, and they will handle all contact and service requirements."

As much as I really, really, really wanted to get one of those Vulcan Drifters (that look like an old Indian), I swore I would never ever, ever, EVER buy another Kawasaki as long as I live.

(BTW, motorcycles are actually a small side-line for Kawasaki. The majority of their business is building off-shore oil rigs and large airplane structures.)

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post #9 of 23 Old Jun 5th, 2007, 3:15 pm
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Have to agree with kdog. Your letter starts off with :

"This will be my last letter to you as I am finished with BMW period. From this point forward I will let my attorneys do all my talking."

Right about there they stopped reading. I mean, why bother? You state you are finished with them - they figure it's too late to save you as a customer anyway, and if a lawyer is involved, let the lawyers talk to each other. See ya.

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post #10 of 23 Old Jun 5th, 2007, 9:55 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfell
When it comes to a pi$$in contest, the guy with the biggest hose and best aim wins.
I will plagerize this and use it as often as I can.....a true gem!



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post #11 of 23 Old Jun 5th, 2007, 10:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Florian
I will plagerize this and use it as often as I can.....a true gem!



F
and......... "never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

Not from me, but I sure do like it!


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post #12 of 23 Old Jun 5th, 2007, 11:36 pm
 
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Lightbulb the corporate world

Bill,

I came from the corporate world and I can say with certainty that in this environment most employees are very limited with what they can respond to for several reasons.

There are legal ramifications for example, or who ever you are talking to may not have the authority to respond with much more than a boiler plate type response. I was asked to sponsor a printer line for some german printers I had spent a couple hundred grand on, but was not authorized to make a public comment out of our company's concern that we could upset some of our customers who were also in the printer business like HP. So my point is that while maybe an employee can give you a generic response stating that hey, we're going to look into it and get back to you, to say anything more before all the facts are in would be jeapordizing their job as well as possibly putting them in legal trouble.

I sympathize with your situation and I hate dealing with big corporations just like I hate dealing with big government. Nothing ever seems to move quickly or be straight forward. And while like I said I sympathize with your situation, I also agree your letter did not allow for much discussion. Hopefully though it is escalated to someone with the insight and common sense to root out the truth and make things right.

From the sounds of it this is going to be a complicated case for them if that dealership is actually fraudulent in their business practice. I once had to fly from Seattle to Asia to fire some snake in the grass employees running things out there and it isn't always a simple issue to deal with as you can imagine when you consider everything involved. Lots of logistics and investigations I suspect are going to take place.

At any rate is sounds like you have a cut and dry case and your legal council should at least be able to recover for your losses as well as punitive damages. On the bright side nobody was hurt, you may get enough to buy a couple bikes, and hopefully these snakes will be sought out and punished and will not be able to do this to anyone else!

I'm not taking sides here, but am trying to put another spin on it for you. Good luck and let us hope that common sense prevails. Cheers ~darren

Last edited by Seattle; Jun 6th, 2007 at 12:08 am.
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post #13 of 23 Old Jun 6th, 2007, 7:44 pm
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I do sympathize for you. But if your insurance company woud do what most insurance companies should do in a situation like yours you wouldn't have a problem. Myself I wud go after your insurance co for compansation rather than BMW.

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post #14 of 23 Old Jun 6th, 2007, 10:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caper11
I do sympathize for you. But if your insurance company woud do what most insurance companies should do in a situation like yours you wouldn't have a problem. Myself I wud go after your insurance co for compansation rather than BMW.
Letting BMW off the hook for fraud would be missing the whole point of the action. The insurance company is a separate issue.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #15 of 23 Old Jun 8th, 2007, 6:28 pm
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post #16 of 23 Old Jun 8th, 2007, 7:22 pm
 
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Peeing Contest

HAVING THE BIGGEST HOSE AND BEST AIM IS IMPORTANT, HOWEVER IT'S PRESSURE THAT COUNTS. A FIVE YEAR OLD CAN PEE ACROSS THE STREET, A 50 YEAR OLD CAN HARDLY KEEP IT OFF HIS FEET. LMAO
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post #17 of 23 Old Jun 9th, 2007, 8:05 am
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HAVING THE BIGGEST HOSE AND BEST AIM IS IMPORTANT, HOWEVER IT'S PRESSURE THAT COUNTS. A FIVE YEAR OLD CAN PEE ACROSS THE STREET, A 50 YEAR OLD CAN HARDLY KEEP IT OFF HIS FEET.
Very well put, Glenn.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #18 of 23 Old Jun 9th, 2007, 9:20 am
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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
It's arrogant, Bill. I would hope for a little more out of Der Helmut Kraut, after all you have been through!

Arrogant?

no just company policy I'm sure, he has said all other communication will be through his attorney, I'm surprised he even got a response from BMW germany
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post #19 of 23 Old Jun 10th, 2007, 12:08 am
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Arrogant?

no just company policy I'm sure, he has said all other communication will be through his attorney, I'm surprised he even got a response from BMW germany
What you call it is irrelevant! How many customers being dissatisfied does it take before it's reflected on the company's profits?

I think Ford and GM are finally figuring that out now.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Some really OLD friggin' White dude who couldn't have possibly known what he was talking about!) WARNING: Official HATE speech!
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post #20 of 23 Old Aug 31st, 2007, 4:59 pm
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Talking got get 'em

Based on the facts in your situation, you need a good legal person who earns a living on the percentage of the settlement. You have the power to help BMW jerk the dealership's paper and you will be given not only a new bike but legal costs and penalty IF the local court is worth a nickle.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Rob Nelson

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post #21 of 23 Old Aug 31st, 2007, 11:38 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas
Based on the facts in your situation, you need a good legal person who earns a living on the percentage of the settlement. You have the power to help BMW jerk the dealership's paper and you will be given not only a new bike but legal costs and penalty IF the local court is worth a nickle.

Good luck and keep us informed.
I'm not familiar with franchise law outside the U.S., but in the states it would take a lot more than this situation for a mfg to pull the franchise. Most states in the U.S. have franchise laws on the books that speak specifically to automotive/motorcycle dealer mfg relationships and strictly govern the power given a mfg to remove a dealer (it is VERY difficult, VERY expensive and the field is tilted towards the dealer). Having said that, as mentioned in an earlier post, when you begin a letter to the mfg with the words "attorney", the customer relations folks immediately turn it over to their legal department and pretty much wash their hands of the situation. Unfortunate, but true.

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post #22 of 23 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 8:15 am
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BMW Fraud Question

Just a quick question. I have been following your story here and for the life of me can not understand BMW corp. allowing their Phillipine dealler to so sully their reputation. What is their thinking? (dealer and BMW) You have not commented on why they are treating you so? What is their rationale? Do they think it is you who is committing fraud? No offense intended, I just want to know what they are saying to you. Perhaps you covered it, but I do not recall if you did.

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post #23 of 23 Old Sep 1st, 2007, 11:57 pm
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Having visited the Phillipines on more than one occasion, I'm not at all surprised. Things are just done differently in that part of the world with different thoughts, attitudes and ideas.

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