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post #1 of 33 Old Feb 28th, 2007, 8:03 pm Thread Starter
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Question Help Engine overheating.

Help Engine overheating. Both coolant and engine oil are coming out of the oil drain... Is this like a head gasket problem? It is a 2005 model. So it should still be under warranty. Therefore I think I need to go the dealer tomorrow...
Shall I ride or get it towed?

Thanks in advance,

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post #2 of 33 Old Feb 28th, 2007, 8:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
Help Engine overheating. Both coolant and engine oil are coming out of the oil drain... Is this like a head gasket problem? It is a 2005 model. So it should still be under warranty. Therefore I think I need to go the dealer tomorrow...
Shall I ride or get it towed?

Thanks in advance,
Water is not a lubricant and will cause SEVERE problems if you continue to run the engine!

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post #3 of 33 Old Feb 28th, 2007, 8:22 pm
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You definately have a serious problem. I would not even start the bike now. Trailer it to the dealer. If you run it you could cause even more problems than you have right now. I'm sure whatever it is your warrenty will cover it. Good luck
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post #4 of 33 Old Feb 28th, 2007, 9:16 pm
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sounds like your head gasket is toast
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post #5 of 33 Old Feb 28th, 2007, 11:34 pm
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What Caper there said is crucial. DO NOT EVEN TURN THIS ENGINE OVER, let alone start it!

It needs to be back to the dealer yesterday.

Head gasket is the best, cracked head or block at worst.

You should NEVER see oil in your coolant or coolant in your oil - big "OH CRAP!" flags waving here.

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post #6 of 33 Old Mar 1st, 2007, 10:55 am
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You just bought this bike, didn't you??

Did you buy it from a dealer??


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post #7 of 33 Old Mar 1st, 2007, 11:47 pm Thread Starter
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Looks like the problem was the coolant in the reservoir. After coolant was replaced by the dealer, no more overheating. I purchased bike from Private owner not from the dealer.

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post #8 of 33 Old Mar 2nd, 2007, 2:04 am
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If the oil had collected in the resevoir, I'd want to know how it got there. Anyone do a compression test? Or a cooling system pressure test?

If the dealer says 'OK' and it's all on his nickel - cool. Waranty and all.

Still, I'd likely have an oil analysis run over the next few oil changes. If nothing more than for 'due dilligence'.

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post #9 of 33 Old Mar 2nd, 2007, 6:42 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotter
If the oil had collected in the resevoir, I'd want to know how it got there. Anyone do a compression test? Or a cooling system pressure test?

If the dealer says 'OK' and it's all on his nickel - cool. Waranty and all.

Still, I'd likely have an oil analysis run over the next few oil changes. If nothing more than for 'due dilligence'.
I'm with Zotter here.

How could adding coolant to the reservoir fix coolant coming out of the oil drain?



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post #10 of 33 Old Mar 2nd, 2007, 7:23 am
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The coolant and lubricating systems are completely separate and under normal circusmstances, never the twain shall meet. If they're comingling, something's rotten in Denmark! I would question the dealer as to why they were mixed and I definitely wouldn't go on any long rides before I got a reasonable answer.

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post #11 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 11:55 am Thread Starter
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The coolant change worked for a few days. Now it started overheating again. So, I am now back to the dealer. The coolant was low. So, I added some last night. But where did the coolant go?. I did not see any coolant paddle under the bike. Possibly leaking inside the engine. The question still remains to be answered?

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post #12 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 12:21 pm
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This definitely sounds like a blown head gasket. I would call the dealer, have them pick it up and check it out. Coolant is most likely in the oil. I would not ride the bike at all until this is fixed.

Ray

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post #13 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 12:39 pm
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If there is no coolant in the oil, and it was changed a few days ago, then you probably had an air pocket in your radiator, as you ride the bike then your coolant cycles, and it drops your level to where you need to add more to get it to the correct level. I would definately have the dealer look at it though.
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post #14 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 6:16 pm
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Head gasket?

Have a look at this link to my coolant leak into the oil system on my '06. I caught mine early because I was doing routine oil analysis. http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11616

Please post the results of fix with pictures of the engine internals and head gasket, if the engine is disassembled.

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post #15 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 7:06 pm Thread Starter
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Yes, coolant was found in the engine oil. The dealer (Scottsdale BMW, AZ) is ordering head gasket and thermostat with overnight shipping.

I wonder what the reliability is going to be after the fix. What are the chances that it would go bad again?

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post #16 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 7:42 pm
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Several Things To Insist Upon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
Yes, coolant was found in the engine oil. The dealer (Scottsdale BMW, AZ) is ordering head gasket and thermostat with overnight shipping.

I wonder what the reliability is going to be after the fix. What are the chances that it would go bad again?

1. Insist that the dealer make every effort to verify for certain WHERE and WHY the coolant was leaking into the engine. They need to be certain about this...not just go in and change the head gasket.

2. Make sure they check the head and cyinder surfaces for "flatness". At the very least they should put a "straight-edge" across the surfaces to insure that neither is warped.

3. I would be there personally to inspect for any other abnormal wear/damage. They assured you that it wasn't a leak into the motor and just changed the coolant. I didn't believe this when I read your post stating it. If there was coolant draining from the oil drain...then frankly, any IDIOT would know that a coolant change would fix NOTHING. This is mechanic 101 stuff! To me, this is a HUGE red flag as to their expertise in diagnosis and repair. IN NO WAY WOULD I LET THE SAME MECHANIC PUT A HEAD GASKET ON MY BIKE.

In their misdiagnosis, it sounds like you ran the bike for a week or so with WATER in the oil. D...A...M...A...G...E POTENTIAL!!!! Make sure they do a valve check and check all rings. The reason I say this is because water does not compress...it usually bends valve stems, breaks cam bearings, etc. All these parts MUST be checked carefully for damage.

4. If it is just a head gasket and is repaired properly by a QUALIFIED MECHANIC, the reliability should be as good as new.

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post #17 of 33 Old Mar 6th, 2007, 7:43 pm
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I don't know about the LT, but on a car, if it overheats and the head gasket is blown, the head should be checked to make sure it isn't warped before putting it all back together.

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post #18 of 33 Old Mar 7th, 2007, 3:51 pm
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Question

I agree 100% with points 1, 2 & 4, but have an issue with part of 3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpastorjack
In their misdiagnosis, it sounds like you ran the bike for a week or so with WATER in the oil. D...A...M...A...G...E POTENTIAL!!!! Make sure they do a valve check and check all rings. The reason I say this is because water does not compress...it usually bends valve stems, breaks cam bearings, etc. All these parts MUST be checked carefully for damage.
It's true that water is not compressible, but oil is not supposed to be in the combustion chamber, so water in the oil should not be subject to compression. Granted, IF there is a bad head gasket, and IF coolant is leaking into one or more combustion chambers, then bent valves and broken rings and lands are possible. However, there would be considerable steam coming from the exhaust all the time, (not a listed symptom in this case), and there would be little or no trace of coolant in the oil.

I agree that water in the oil is a bad thing.

Also, no one has posed the possibility that the problem is in the combination water/oil pump.

George
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post #19 of 33 Old Mar 7th, 2007, 4:34 pm
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Also in a car, ie my 88 3.8 Ford V6, when the head gasket let antifreeze into the oil, the rod bearings surface finish was dulled. Ford refused to do the repair. They experienced rod bearing failure with in a year of the repair on earlier repair jobs. I'm told that some component of antifreeze attacks the lead in the babbitt bearings. Does anyone know if this applies to our K1200 engine?

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post #20 of 33 Old Mar 7th, 2007, 8:10 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilbar00c
Also in a car, ie my 88 3.8 Ford V6, when the head gasket let antifreeze into the oil, the rod bearings surface finish was dulled. Ford refused to do the repair. They experienced rod bearing failure with in a year of the repair on earlier repair jobs. I'm told that some component of antifreeze attacks the lead in the babbitt bearings. Does anyone know if this applies to our K1200 engine?
Water/glycol also does not have sufficient film strength to prevent metal-to-metal contact at bearing surfaces. This will result in destroyed bearings - IF the coolant concentration in the oil is sufficiently high. At a concentration of a few parts per million(ppm) it will not be a problem - but at higher concentrations, it will cause wiped bearings.

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post #21 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 9:30 am Thread Starter
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Update: Overheating Problem

The coolant was found in the engine oil. The dealer confirmed that this would be a head gasket issue. This week, a gent from BMW mottorrad is coming for Warranty work inspection.

If I am not wrong, this type of failure has not been seen with pre 2005 models. I was wondering then if this would be related to increased horse power design. Increasing the power would, I guess, increase the pressure in the engine thereby causing a head gasket etc issue. I am not an engine mechanic so I am just brain stroming some ideas. :-)

Regards,

Matt Kas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
The coolant change worked for a few days. Now it started overheating again. So, I am now back to the dealer. The coolant was low. So, I added some last night. But where did the coolant go?. I did not see any coolant paddle under the bike. Possibly leaking inside the engine. The question still remains to be answered?

Matt Kas

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post #22 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 9:54 am
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If you ran it any lenght of time at all with coolant in the oil, I'd insist that ALL engine bearings be changed. As previously mentioned, coolant is a poor lubricant and may have caused bearing damage.
From my diesel engine repair days, we always changed all bearings containing lead, rod, mains, cam if they were ever run with antifreeze in the cooling system. Don't remember the logic behind that, might have been funds.

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post #23 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 10:54 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunny
If you ran it any lenght of time at all with coolant in the oil, I'd insist that ALL engine bearings be changed. As previously mentioned, coolant is a poor lubricant and may have caused bearing damage.
From my diesel engine repair days, we always changed all bearings containing lead, rod, mains, cam if they were ever run with antifreeze in the cooling system. Don't remember the logic behind that, might have been funds.
At this point, I unfortunately lost my confidence with late design LTs and thinking about trading the bike for a Gold wing. I am thinking, since Gold wing sells a lot more than LT does, statistically speaking, so many Goldwing riders can not be wrong at the same time.

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post #24 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 11:43 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
The coolant was found in the engine oil. The dealer confirmed that this would be a head gasket issue. This week, a gent from BMW mottorrad is coming for Warranty work inspection.

If I am not wrong, this type of failure has not been seen with pre 2005 models. I was wondering then if this would be related to increased horse power design. Increasing the power would, I guess, increase the pressure in the engine thereby causing a head gasket etc issue. I am not an engine mechanic so I am just brain stroming some ideas. :-)

Regards,

Matt Kas
Broken feelings with broken 05LT :-(
I saw absolutely no sign of compression leakage on my "leaking" head gasket. The dealer stated that the coolant was leaking between the layers for the gasket over to the oil return holes. So thus I do not believe it is a power upgrade issue (see picture below)

I'd suggest that others watch their coolant levels-that was my first clue of a leak.
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post #25 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 12:18 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWing
I saw absolutely no sign of compression leakage on my "leaking" head gasket. The dealer stated that the coolant was leaking between the layers for the gasket over to the oil return holes. So thus I do not believe it is a power upgrade issue (see picture below)

I'd suggest that others watch their coolant levels-that was my first clue of a leak.
How confident are you with your LT? What if it starts leaking again after the warranty is over?
I also have 2002 LT. Never had any leaking of coolant.
Had fuel leak twice on my boots, one rear drive failure and one centerstand failure. I have around 76K miles on the machine. 02 LT relatively has been a good machine. But, I honestly feel nervous about riding my 05 LT (a.k.a. Coolant Leaky LT) to any amount miles beyond warranty (i.e. 36K miles). By the way, Honda Goldwing has unlimited miles warranty for 3 years. why BMW can not match that warranty?

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post #26 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 12:50 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
How confident are you with your LT? What if it starts leaking again after the warranty is over?
I bought an extended warranty when I bought my '06 LT!!!!

Jim

PS: If you get a chance to talk to the BMW rep that is coming to look at your bike - I would be interested to see what he has to say. (Don't let him tell you they have never had a problem with head gasket leaks!!!)

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post #27 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 8:04 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWing
I bought an extended warranty when I bought my '06 LT!!!!

Jim

PS: If you get a chance to talk to the BMW rep that is coming to look at your bike - I would be interested to see what he has to say. (Don't let him tell you they have never had a problem with head gasket leaks!!!)
Extended warranty is a great idea. How much did it cost you, may I ask?

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post #28 of 33 Old Mar 11th, 2007, 8:11 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
Extended warranty is a great idea. How much did it cost you, may I ask?
It was a 3rd party warranty company in Canada (Integrated Warranty Systems Inc.) and price on the additional 4 years was $1400 Can. This is the full retail price, but not sure what I paid since it was all part of the bike purchase discount. (There is a LOT of markup on extended warranties.) Looks like they may operate in US as well. See http://www.iwsinc.ca/

They also had an interesting option - for another $150 Can, if you never make a claim against the extended warranty - you get the purchase price back!!!

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post #29 of 33 Old Mar 13th, 2007, 2:48 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
The coolant was found in the engine oil. The dealer confirmed that this would be a head gasket issue. This week, a gent from BMW mottorrad is coming for Warranty work inspection.

If I am not wrong, this type of failure has not been seen with pre 2005 models. I was wondering then if this would be related to increased horse power design. Increasing the power would, I guess, increase the pressure in the engine thereby causing a head gasket etc issue. I am not an engine mechanic so I am just brain stroming some ideas. :-)

Regards,

Matt Kas
Broken feelings with broken 05LT :-(
I have just called the dealer this morning. Now, the assistant service manager is saying that they need to see if BMW Motorrad will cover under warranty? Similar failure happened to at least two other bikes and they were covered under warranty. At least one of them was traced to a faulty BMW sealent. I was even planning to keep the bike with the extended warranty. Would it be odd if BMW does not cover under warranty?

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post #30 of 33 Old Mar 13th, 2007, 2:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
I have just called the dealer this morning. Now, the assistant service manager is saying that they need to see if BMW Motorrad will cover under warranty? Similar failure happened to at least two other bikes and they were covered under warranty. At least one of them was traced to a faulty BMW sealent. I was even planning to keep the bike with the extended warranty. Would it be odd if BMW does not cover under warranty?
Based on my experience, this is pretty standard practice for the dealer to check with BMW before doing the work. Seems like the dealers have to check with BMW Corporate to be sure it is covered under warranty. They had to do the same thing with my head gasket leak.

It would be great if you can get more info on the "faulty BMW sealant". The Service manual does not specify any sealant. Maybe they mean the sealant that comes on the head gasket?

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post #31 of 33 Old Mar 14th, 2007, 7:10 pm
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My dealer confirmed today that there have been a "few" issues with head gasket leaks - particularily in the southern US where it is hot.

I guess we can now add that there has been one leak in the northern US/Canada where I have been driving.

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post #32 of 33 Old Mar 14th, 2007, 7:23 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWing
My dealer confirmed today that there have been a "few" issues with head gasket leaks - particularily in the southern US where it is hot.

I guess we can now add that there has been one leak in the northern US/Canada where I have been driving.
I wonder if it is only for models 05/later or for all models?

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post #33 of 33 Old Mar 14th, 2007, 9:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKas
I wonder if it is only for models 05/later or for all models?
I dont really know - however given that it doesnt seem to have been a problem reported on this site, that would mean it is on later models. (otherwise there would be several failures reported on older bikes)

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