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post #1 of 18 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 1:29 pm Thread Starter
 
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latest clutch analysis

History:
2000 LT with 5 clutches/seals/slave/oring/pressure & back plates/diaphragm spring etc. in only 23,000 miles. One was highway-only installed in Chicago and shot upon arrival in LA. Another I carefully babied and was shot in less than 3,000 miles. Bike has been disasembled or awaiting funds most of its life, and has cost me over 6,000 in clutch bills though I did one myself.

All previous times there was evidence of leakage at the engine seal and/or trans seal, never any leakage from the slave. We suspected a problem with the engine shaft radial play or bent or something obscure like that.

This time we disassembled after only 3,000 miles with the clutch slipping badly (just rolling on in 5th at 60 mph it would break free), and for the first time everything was completley dry. Lots of sooty clutch residue accumulated at the bottom of the bell housing. Friction disc worn nearly to the rivets.

Engine shaft and seal were O.K. though my technician said it was better to install the engine seal not inserted so far into the block, he had a special BMW tool that installed it proud of flush. Indeed, with the seal flush the seal rode very near the edge of the clutch basket sealing ring.

The technician said that the only thing he could find wrong was that the master cylinder adjustment at the lever (a small accessible screw with paint on it) was mis-adjusted to allow no free play at the lever. Yet I'd think the cylinder must have retracted sufficiently or neither forward nor reverse bleeding owuld have been possible, unless power-bleeding deformed the master piston seal. He thought it was a problem, I'm not sure. Unfortunately, nobody tested the rod/slave action before he corrected the lever freeplay at the master. He saw something he didnt' think was right and adjusted it. Now we don't know whether it was wrong enough to be the cause of all the problems.

After he unscrewed the screw a bit and added free play at the lever:

The only thing I could notice that seemed strange to me was that the throwout rod thru the trans shaft didn't retract very easily or quickly in two ways:

1) I'd expected that once the master lever was released so the piston was retracted fully past the master cylinder fill hole, the line was depressurized and connected to the fill reservour. So I'd expected to be able to more easily push in the rod and slave with my thumb against only the small spring in the slave. But no, with the clutch lever released I had to press the rod with any flat tool, or pressing with my palm or thumb I had to press too hard and it hurt (ouch). But perhaps the fill hole is just very small, perhaps a good thing with the frequency rate of slave failures. Indeed, FULLY retracting brake pistons for service takes time and pressure too...

2) But my bigger concern was this test:
After I pushed the rod in some distance I kept some pressure on the rod. Then I actuated the master lever. The rod and level moved in unison, as they should. However, the rod did not retract as easily as I'd expected. It moved smoothly, but it took more pressure to push it to retract than my familiarity with the slave spring led me to expect. Could be just piston seal friction. On one other previous LT clutch I'd trimmed that slave spring to reduce its preload, but this was a new slave only 3,000 miles ago, the felt on the turned-down section of the rod (2002 rod in 2000 bike) was dry, rod was dry right to the end, fluid level was fine. Action was similar without the felt.

So the technician's conjecture is that the master was mis-adjusted at the factory and didn't have enough play to properly retract the master piston past the cylinder fill hole. Then, with heat or pump-up or whatever, the line never was able to de-pressurize via the fill hole when the lever was released. Not filling, the more common symptom of this kind of problem, would usually cause the lever's clutch release point to move farther toward the bar. But if the slave doesn't leak, another symtom might be constant pressure in the line that's never released when the lever is released. That would mean the clutch rod was always slightly disengaging the clutch, making it slip & wear.

The symptom was always that if I droned in 4th or 5th on the expressway for a while, after shifting from 4th to 5th and letting the clutch 'catch' completely, if I subsequently rolled on the throttle in 5th the clutch would slip. So I always thought the problem was a seal leaking fluid as I droned along, then slip after the clutch got saturated. But if the master was the problem all along, then the symptom probably showed up after heat made something expand, perhaps the friction disc or rod or fluid, whatever, causing pressure in the system.

Now for my questions:
1) He said he put in a current late-model diaphragm spring this time, from the newer engine that makes more horsepower. I wanted to put in dual diaphragm springs, which I liked but shortened the life of the already marginal slave. SO, is the new spring stiffer? Does it have a new number? Is it specified as a replacement number superceding the old diaphragm spring number?
2) The master still has a problem with the cruise-control switch, and the lever has excessive play up and down (cross to the actuation direction). After adding play via the adjsuter screw, the VERY experienced technician (on his second personal LT too) said that the action then seemed normal to him. To me it still seemed sluggish, compared to my Suzuki TL1000R sportbike hydraulic clutch slave/rod. Think I should replace the master, or remove all the lines and banjos looking for a chip blocking a banjo bolt hole somewhere?

Unfortunately, to my thinking the problem was in the hydraulics this time, and I'd have replaced ALL the hydraulics including all lines and banjo bolts, and master. But this shop didn't remove the final drive and frame cross memeber, instead they dropped the engine. This meant they still could not access the slave or line.

Bill: $1700.
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post #2 of 18 Old Feb 23rd, 2007, 2:36 pm
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Might want to send your bike over to the Philippines and let Cherokee123 ride it around a bit. Maybe it will self destruct and save you some money.

Lee Nowell
Black 01, LTC
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post #3 of 18 Old Feb 26th, 2007, 12:35 am
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If you do a part number search the part number for the older spring and the newer (05 and later) are the same (21217688214). I can't think of why he would make a point of this, unless he just does not know they are the same????
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post #4 of 18 Old Feb 26th, 2007, 1:19 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltride
If you do a part number search the part number for the older spring and the newer (05 and later) are the same (21217688214). I can't think of why he would make a point of this, unless he just does not know they are the same????
Someone on here was talking about BMW's part number crazyness. It seems that when they make an updated part it retains the part number of the part it is intended to replace. The discussion about it was about clutch slave cylinders...updated slave with physically noticable changes...same P/N as the old one.
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post #5 of 18 Old Feb 26th, 2007, 4:48 pm Thread Starter
 
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I've decided to replace the entire master. $307 from Chicago BMW by mail-order. After paying so much for clutches, it still doesnt' feel right at the lever to me. Even at that price, it's ckeap insurance if this clutch just finally lasts a while.
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post #6 of 18 Old Feb 26th, 2007, 5:33 pm
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Hey, Greg! Long time no see!


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post #7 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 12:27 am
 
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My clutch has 99000 mi on it . Is that good?
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post #8 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 4:56 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcanup
My clutch has 99000 mi on it . Is that good?
The LT clutch should last approximately 200,000 if it wern't for the rear main seal leaks, slave cylinder leaks, etc. I would say that you are one of the fortunate ones!

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #9 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 12:24 pm
 
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Talking

I think riding the bikes as opposed to letting them set over time,has a great deal to do with seals and gaskets leaking and such.Just my.02 cents
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post #10 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 3:26 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
History:
2000 LT with 5 clutches/seals/slave/oring/pressure & back plates/diaphragm spring etc. in only 23,000 miles. One was highway-only installed in Chicago and shot upon arrival in LA. Another I carefully babied and was shot in less than 3,000 miles. Bike has been disasembled or awaiting funds most of its life, and has cost me over 6,000 in clutch bills though I did one myself.

All previous times there was evidence of leakage at the engine seal and/or trans seal, never any leakage from the slave. We suspected a problem with the engine shaft radial play or bent or something obscure like that.

This time we disassembled after only 3,000 miles with the clutch slipping badly (just rolling on in 5th at 60 mph it would break free), and for the first time everything was completley dry. Lots of sooty clutch residue accumulated at the bottom of the bell housing. Friction disc worn nearly to the rivets.

Engine shaft and seal were O.K. though my technician said it was better to install the engine seal not inserted so far into the block, he had a special BMW tool that installed it proud of flush. Indeed, with the seal flush the seal rode very near the edge of the clutch basket sealing ring.

The technician said that the only thing he could find wrong was that the master cylinder adjustment at the lever (a small accessible screw with paint on it) was mis-adjusted to allow no free play at the lever. Yet I'd think the cylinder must have retracted sufficiently or neither forward nor reverse bleeding owuld have been possible, unless power-bleeding deformed the master piston seal. He thought it was a problem, I'm not sure. Unfortunately, nobody tested the rod/slave action before he corrected the lever freeplay at the master. He saw something he didnt' think was right and adjusted it. Now we don't know whether it was wrong enough to be the cause of all the problems.

After he unscrewed the screw a bit and added free play at the lever:

The only thing I could notice that seemed strange to me was that the throwout rod thru the trans shaft didn't retract very easily or quickly in two ways:

1) I'd expected that once the master lever was released so the piston was retracted fully past the master cylinder fill hole, the line was depressurized and connected to the fill reservour. So I'd expected to be able to more easily push in the rod and slave with my thumb against only the small spring in the slave. But no, with the clutch lever released I had to press the rod with any flat tool, or pressing with my palm or thumb I had to press too hard and it hurt (ouch). But perhaps the fill hole is just very small, perhaps a good thing with the frequency rate of slave failures. Indeed, FULLY retracting brake pistons for service takes time and pressure too...

2) But my bigger concern was this test:
After I pushed the rod in some distance I kept some pressure on the rod. Then I actuated the master lever. The rod and level moved in unison, as they should. However, the rod did not retract as easily as I'd expected. It moved smoothly, but it took more pressure to push it to retract than my familiarity with the slave spring led me to expect. Could be just piston seal friction. On one other previous LT clutch I'd trimmed that slave spring to reduce its preload, but this was a new slave only 3,000 miles ago, the felt on the turned-down section of the rod (2002 rod in 2000 bike) was dry, rod was dry right to the end, fluid level was fine. Action was similar without the felt.

So the technician's conjecture is that the master was mis-adjusted at the factory and didn't have enough play to properly retract the master piston past the cylinder fill hole. Then, with heat or pump-up or whatever, the line never was able to de-pressurize via the fill hole when the lever was released. Not filling, the more common symptom of this kind of problem, would usually cause the lever's clutch release point to move farther toward the bar. But if the slave doesn't leak, another symtom might be constant pressure in the line that's never released when the lever is released. That would mean the clutch rod was always slightly disengaging the clutch, making it slip & wear.

The symptom was always that if I droned in 4th or 5th on the expressway for a while, after shifting from 4th to 5th and letting the clutch 'catch' completely, if I subsequently rolled on the throttle in 5th the clutch would slip. So I always thought the problem was a seal leaking fluid as I droned along, then slip after the clutch got saturated. But if the master was the problem all along, then the symptom probably showed up after heat made something expand, perhaps the friction disc or rod or fluid, whatever, causing pressure in the system.

Now for my questions:
1) He said he put in a current late-model diaphragm spring this time, from the newer engine that makes more horsepower. I wanted to put in dual diaphragm springs, which I liked but shortened the life of the already marginal slave. SO, is the new spring stiffer? Does it have a new number? Is it specified as a replacement number superceding the old diaphragm spring number?
2) The master still has a problem with the cruise-control switch, and the lever has excessive play up and down (cross to the actuation direction). After adding play via the adjsuter screw, the VERY experienced technician (on his second personal LT too) said that the action then seemed normal to him. To me it still seemed sluggish, compared to my Suzuki TL1000R sportbike hydraulic clutch slave/rod. Think I should replace the master, or remove all the lines and banjos looking for a chip blocking a banjo bolt hole somewhere?

Unfortunately, to my thinking the problem was in the hydraulics this time, and I'd have replaced ALL the hydraulics including all lines and banjo bolts, and master. But this shop didn't remove the final drive and frame cross memeber, instead they dropped the engine. This meant they still could not access the slave or line.

Bill: $1700.
My one and only comment..... BIZARRE story!
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post #11 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 3:46 pm Thread Starter
 
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Ordered the complete left master assembly from Chicago BMW. Hope this clutch lasts longer!

Lever just still doesn't feel right, not smooth and doesn't "snap" back. Rod moved smoothly, but that was without the felt on yet...supposedly the slave is relativley new, that just leaves the lines and master, banjo bolts and cross-over pipe as the only parts that haven't been replaced repeatedly.
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post #12 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 4:04 pm Thread Starter
 
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Hi, Jeffe!

My divorce is finally final, after being separated for 4 years, bifurcated without a settlement yet. Going to court March 7th to finally get my fair share, after wasting (total fo both parties) about $30,000 in legal fees due to her stubbornness and inability to accurately divide by 2 despite her doctorate. Really stupid of her, we differed by less than she forced us to give away.

BTW I've been building a TL1000R twin. Had the heads fly-cut just a bit to increase compression a little. Got the last set of the Yoshimura-spec Carrillo rods. Wiseco forged pistons now being ceramic-coated on the tops and some kind of PTFE-like coating on the skirts. Getting a bit milled off the cylinder bases to set squish. I'm using the late-model heads with the smaller ports, but porting them out to my preferred shape. I'm having custom cams made by Web-Cam, more conservative duration and overlap than their race cams, 'cause I won't have enough compression for wild cams and I want the power to come on at lower RPM, but I spec'd more exhaust valve lift. Then I'm trying to use an offset-key to correct for how shortening the cyilnder/head stack would retard the cam timing by shortening the chain run, 'cause adjustable cam sprockets for the TL1000 engines are really expensive. Should make for a really nice, really cheap hop-up, maybe $700 total. I'm expecting an increase of about 10 HP, and another 6 from my intake and exhaust and FI mods. That would take it from about 110 HP stock at the wheel to about 126. Nothing compared to the new 4's, but I've lightened the bike too, and it will keep with the Ducati's for half the cost. And the power will come on at much lower revs with a really wide powerband. Fun!
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post #13 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 4:25 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
Hi, Jeffe!

My divorce is finally final, after being separated for 4 years, bifurcated without a settlement yet. Going to court March 7th to finally get my fair share, after wasting (total fo both parties) about $30,000 in legal fees due to her stubbornness and inability to accurately divide by 2 despite her doctorate. Really stupid of her, we differed by less than she forced us to give away.

BTW I've been building a TL1000R twin. Had the heads fly-cut just a bit to increase compression a little. Got the last set of the Yoshimura-spec Carrillo rods. Wiseco forged pistons now being ceramic-coated on the tops and some kind of PTFE-like coating on the skirts. Getting a bit milled off the cylinder bases to set squish. I'm using the late-model heads with the smaller ports, but porting them out to my preferred shape. I'm having custom cams made by Web-Cam, more conservative duration and overlap than their race cams, 'cause I won't have enough compression for wild cams and I want the power to come on at lower RPM, but I spec'd more exhaust valve lift. Then I'm trying to use an offset-key to correct for how shortening the cyilnder/head stack would retard the cam timing by shortening the chain run, 'cause adjustable cam sprockets for the TL1000 engines are really expensive. Should make for a really nice, really cheap hop-up, maybe $700 total. I'm expecting an increase of about 10 HP, and another 6 from my intake and exhaust and FI mods. That would take it from about 110 HP stock at the wheel to about 126. Nothing compared to the new 4's, but I've lightened the bike too, and it will keep with the Ducati's for half the cost. And the power will come on at much lower revs with a really wide powerband. Fun!
Hey, Greg- what time is it?????

Just kiddin', Bud - you know that. For folks who don't know Greg (cuz he's been absent about a year or more!!), you won't find a more MOD (Manic Obsessive Detail) wrench around ('cept maybe for Shealey)! You ask Greg what time it is, and he'll tell ya how the watch/clock is made, or how to make it better and faster and more efficient (ok, maybe not the faster part!!) in detail. Other wrench gurus around here unnerstand!!

Most of your wrench-speak, Greg, goes right over my head, but I still read every word - figgering I might run across the category on Jeopardy sometime!!! Sorry about the court battles; hope thangs work out so you can move on! And lissen, good luck with the TL1000R twin. Sure sounds like not much moolah for upgrading the performance. And the fun factor!!

Take care, Greg. Ride safe.
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post #14 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 4:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper
Hi, Jeffe!

My divorce is finally final, after being separated for 4 years, bifurcated without a settlement yet. Going to court March 7th to finally get my fair share, after wasting (total fo both parties) about $30,000 in legal fees due to her stubbornness and inability to accurately divide by 2 despite her doctorate. Really stupid of her, we differed by less than she forced us to give away.

BTW I've been building a TL1000R twin. Had the heads fly-cut just a bit to increase compression a little. Got the last set of the Yoshimura-spec Carrillo rods. Wiseco forged pistons now being ceramic-coated on the tops and some kind of PTFE-like coating on the skirts. Getting a bit milled off the cylinder bases to set squish. I'm using the late-model heads with the smaller ports, but porting them out to my preferred shape. I'm having custom cams made by Web-Cam, more conservative duration and overlap than their race cams, 'cause I won't have enough compression for wild cams and I want the power to come on at lower RPM, but I spec'd more exhaust valve lift. Then I'm trying to use an offset-key to correct for how shortening the cyilnder/head stack would retard the cam timing by shortening the chain run, 'cause adjustable cam sprockets for the TL1000 engines are really expensive. Should make for a really nice, really cheap hop-up, maybe $700 total. I'm expecting an increase of about 10 HP, and another 6 from my intake and exhaust and FI mods. That would take it from about 110 HP stock at the wheel to about 126. Nothing compared to the new 4's, but I've lightened the bike too, and it will keep with the Ducati's for half the cost. And the power will come on at much lower revs with a really wide powerband. Fun!
Greg,

Glad to see your life is circling back to some level of normalcy. Hopefully with this behind you, there will be plenty of riding ahead. Now, you should look to the new GT as your next project. I'd sure love to hear your thoughts on that. Check your PM.

Later,

Jeff


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post #15 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 4:41 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcanup
I think riding the bikes as opposed to letting them set over time,has a great deal to do with seals and gaskets leaking and such.Just my.02 cents
I totally disagree with this. I ride my bike five days a week, and the rear seal went out due to the type of rubber used by BMW. So are you also saying that frequent use of the LT will stop the slave cylinder from leaking? I will raise your .02 by my .02.

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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post #16 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 6:21 pm
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Hey Greg, good to hear from you, sorry your clutch is STILL acting up and glad your deevorce is FINALLY done.

Ok, you've been trying to get to a CCR for years. Is this the year?



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post #17 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 8:05 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino
I totally disagree with this. I ride my bike five days a week, and the rear seal went out due to the type of rubber used by BMW. So are you also saying that frequent use of the LT will stop the slave cylinder from leaking? I will raise your .02 by my .02.
Nothing will stop it from leaking but repair.What Im sayin is that a bike that sits for a long period of time is more apt to leak than the one that is ridden daily.
Didnt mean to step on toes, sheesh ,You guys sure develop an attitude fast.
Sorry I said anything.
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post #18 of 18 Old Feb 27th, 2007, 10:00 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcanup
Nothing will stop it from leaking but repair.What Im sayin is that a bike that sits for a long period of time is more apt to leak than the one that is ridden daily.
Didnt mean to step on toes, sheesh ,You guys sure develop an attitude fast.
Sorry I said anything.
I am sorry that you took my reply as such. Sorry about that!

Mike Trevelino
Williamsburg, VA
2008 RT
2000 LT - Totaled at 99,960 miles


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