Once more my FD bearing failed - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 43 Old Oct 20th, 2019, 7:25 pm Thread Starter
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Once more my FD bearing failed

I don't know how to start this. I don't know if I should repair the [email protected] FD once again or set the LT on fire and sit further away and enjoy the spectacle.
I had rebuilt this FD twice. Once used the same shims and it failed 1100 Km later, the next time I saw the video with the shims calculation, used the 0.04 of a mm as it resulted and the LT did 38000 Km without any problem. It even did a 3400 Km trip from Greece to Dalmatian coast, Venice, Napoli, Pisa, Florence, Rome, Pompei, Bari and then back home loaded at the limit. My buddy's LT did not feel anything on this trip. It was also carrying the same load.
I opened it today and found that the FAG bearing is still rotating well but the balls cage failed. Tomorrow probably I will remove the bearing from the crown and cut it half way to find out where the balls were running. I will send photos.
Now see below my findings till today.
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post #2 of 43 Old Oct 20th, 2019, 7:51 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Man sorry about your horrible luck...

riding oildheds since 1995, broke everything that can be broken, still zero failures on any of my final drives (five of them at the moment all from 11GS (11/33)

I hope somebody figure out the issues, nothing more bottresome that a bike you can not trust..
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post #3 of 43 Old Oct 20th, 2019, 10:24 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

I am not one of the FD gurus on this site but if it failed in 1100km the first time, it had to be way over shimmed. I think you got closer to what it needs the second time but still not quite right. It is a difficult measurement to take and get right as I have done 3 myself with 2 different measuring methods. So far, so good but I haven't checked it this season yet but I am hopeful for nothing but fuzz on the magnet again. I would recommend you do it again and repeat that measurement several times. Do you remember if your shim pack put you on the high side, middle or low side of your calculation? Are you using the required C3 spec 19 ball bearing and not the less expensive C1 spec which is not accurate enough to be used in that application? I couldn't tell if the taper bearing had any pits from the ball cage bits or not but it looked like it made its way in that bearing.

Gordon
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post #4 of 43 Old Oct 21st, 2019, 3:40 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Don't lose heart, I believe it all comes down to the correct shim adjustment. A single row ball bearing shouldn't have too much positive loading in any one direction. I suspect that you just didn't get it quite right. I have rebuilt some pretty big gear boxes on large steel cutting band saws. These boxes are more like a big final drive with just a worm and crown gear. Most of them have tapered roller bearings that have to be actually torqued up to specification. In the case of a single row ball bearing you need to make sure that the balls run central to the inner and outer races while eliminating slop in the action. My advice would be to go to your local bearing supply store and talk to them about the required specification for the specific bearing that has failed.
Another important thing to check is that the outer race of the bearing is being held snuggly in it's housing and not able to spin or have any side to side movement because this will cause the bearing to be unevenly loaded.
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post #5 of 43 Old Oct 21st, 2019, 11:55 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

That first bearing must have really been over shimmed to fail in only 1100 KM! You are getting closer now though.

You might check the diameter of the other end of the shaft where the tapered roller bearing should have its bore tight on the shaft. There have been some terrible engineering and workmanship issues when these were manufactured and assembled.
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post #6 of 43 Old Oct 22nd, 2019, 8:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

I will reply to all of you here.

when I did the 1st repair I asked a trained BMW mechanic in a dealership in Athens Greece. He told me by word, "whatever you do, DO NOT CHANGE THE SHIMS THICKNESS". He sounded very positive and shouted as well. I followed his advice and felt it running bad at 1100 km, opened it again and cut the bearing in half. I saw that the balls were running on the side of the U. Then followed the youtube video and calculated the shims to 0.04 instead of 0.08 mm it was initially. After this repair I did 38000 km. I believe I did good. After I remove this one I will cut it again and update you on where the balls run.
Throughout this 38K run I had put a temp sensor on the FD oil filler plug. The maximum temp I noticed when I was driving two up + loaded in Italy with 39 degC Amb was 60 degC. Even if the sensor had a 10 degC failure it was at 70. I wouldn't say it suffered much at this temp.

Yes, the bearing was a FAG, C3, made in Germany. Printed on the outer ring.

Here are the two cage pieces that broke off the bearing. The mechanic that did the repair 38K ago said it is probably a part quality failure and not the shimming calc.
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post #7 of 43 Old Oct 22nd, 2019, 9:08 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
I will reply to all of you here.

when I did the 1st repair I asked a trained BMW mechanic in a dealership in Athens Greece. He told me by word, "whatever you do, DO NOT CHANGE THE SHIMS THICKNESS". He sounded very positive and shouted as well. I followed his advice and felt it running bad at 1100 km, opened it again and cut the bearing in half. I saw that the balls were running on the side of the U. Then followed the youtube video and calculated the shims to 0.04 instead of 0.08 mm it was initially. After this repair I did 38000 km. I believe I did good. After I remove this one I will cut it again and update you on where the balls run.
Throughout this 38K run I had put a temp sensor on the FD oil filler plug. The maximum temp I noticed when I was driving two up + loaded in Italy with 39 degC Amb was 60 degC. Even if the sensor had a 10 degC failure it was at 70. I wouldn't say it suffered much at this temp.

Yes, the bearing was a FAG, C3, made in Germany. Printed on the outer ring.

Here are the two cage pieces that broke off the bearing. The mechanic that did the repair 38K ago said it is probably a part quality failure and not the shimming calc.
To say that the mechanic in Athens is incompetent is being kind. The second mechanic is almost certainly wrong as well. Id say this is most likely still a case of too much preload.
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post #8 of 43 Old Oct 23rd, 2019, 12:57 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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To say that the mechanic in Athens is incompetent is being kind. The second mechanic is almost certainly wrong as well. Id say this is most likely still a case of too much preload.
I would tend to agree that the preload is still slightly high. In American units for a greater understanding of the audience's non techs, the preload is 1.97 thousandths at the low side and 3.94 thousandths on the high side. That is half the thickness of a sheet of paper or a human hair so getting that right is no small thing but they seem to be pretty reliable if it is right. Dave ( Saddleman ) has done well over 100 now and I have not heard of any of his coming back yet.

I believe the common factory over shimming was around .2mm which is bout 8 thousandths over. Just 2 sheets of paper and it is toast.

Gordon
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post #9 of 43 Old Oct 23rd, 2019, 7:12 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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I would tend to agree that the preload is still slightly high. In American units for a greater understanding of the audience's non techs, the preload is 1.97 thousandths at the low side and 3.94 thousandths on the high side. That is half the thickness of a sheet of paper or a human hair so getting that right is no small thing but they seem to be pretty reliable if it is right. Dave ( Saddleman ) has done well over 100 now and I have not heard of any of his coming back yet.

I believe the common factory over shimming was around .2mm which is bout 8 thousandths over. Just 2 sheets of paper and it is toast.
And when you consider that the Youngs modulus of aluminum is about 10,000,000 psi, it does not take a lot of compression of a piece of aluminum to yield a very high force. It would take an FE analysis to determine this as I suspect most of the force is generated from deformation of the final drive case rather than compression of the case, even so, I would not be surprised to find that each thou of shim is generating a 1,000 lbs or more of force on the bearing. So, a little extra thickness is likely adding a lot of extra force and quickly goes beyond the design load of the bearing.
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post #10 of 43 Old Oct 23rd, 2019, 8:34 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

What year is your LT?

This may be an option for you...

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post #11 of 43 Old Oct 23rd, 2019, 10:33 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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What year is your LT?

This may be an option for you...
Shipping to Greece may be expensive. But hey if it is sold cheap enough...

John
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post #12 of 43 Old Oct 24th, 2019, 8:22 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

I have a freshly rebuilt Final Drive from a 2002 LT , professionally built by Rubber Chicken Racing (Tom Cutter). PM me if interested. Had as a spare, sold the bike.


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post #13 of 43 Old Oct 26th, 2019, 9:34 pm
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Lightbulb Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

I've read using a high quality "Slightly lighter weight" oil may be in order. As a thick oil will not soak into the bearings fast enough for a thorough coating in cold starts and heavy duty use...
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post #14 of 43 Old Oct 26th, 2019, 11:15 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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I've read using a high quality "Slightly lighter weight" oil may be in order. As a thick oil will not soak into the bearings fast enough for a thorough coating in cold starts and heavy duty use...
Welcome to the forum Ryan. I am always interested in peoples research on the FD bearing failures so where did you read that? It is not a shielded bearing so it should have no issue with oil penetration in cold starts as the lower 1/4 of the bearing is sitting in the oil and should carry the oil with it as soon as it starts to turn.
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post #15 of 43 Old Oct 27th, 2019, 7:46 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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I've read using a high quality "Slightly lighter weight" oil may be in order. As a thick oil will not soak into the bearings fast enough for a thorough coating in cold starts and heavy duty use...
It sounds like you are thinking of pressure lubricated bearings such as in an engine. A lighter weight gear oil, or often a full synthetic, may be specified for operation in below zero temps, but for most lower 48 use you want the weight oil recommended by the manufacturer. As Gordon said, this is an open bearing with the lower part always submerged in oil when sitting. So, as soon as the wheel starts to roll, the oil covered balls in the bottom will lube the races on top and the oily race on the bottom will lube the dry balls on their first rotation through. And given how long it takes gear oil to break the film even when sitting for long periods of time, it would take several weeks before the oil film is gone from even the dry part of the bearing above the oil level.

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post #16 of 43 Old Oct 27th, 2019, 11:24 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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I've read using a high quality "Slightly lighter weight" oil may be in order. As a thick oil will not soak into the bearings fast enough for a thorough coating in cold starts and heavy duty use...
I rebuilt a final drive earlier this year that had over 300,000 miles on it. It did not need rebuilding it was shimmed correctly from BMW and he had used 75w250 Red Line HD Shockproof gear oil.
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post #17 of 43 Old Oct 27th, 2019, 7:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Guys, can someone please tell me the big O-Ring BMW part number or dimensions? Also the big oil seal BMW part number? Both for the 10/1998 FD. I searched the realoem site but they don't show.
Thanks
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post #18 of 43 Old Oct 27th, 2019, 8:26 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Guys, can someone please tell me the big O-Ring BMW part number or dimensions? Also the big oil seal BMW part number? Both for the 10/1998 FD. I searched the realoem site but they don't show.
Thanks
You mean this one? From the MaxBMW parts fiche. Always had better luck here than at realoem. You can find the seal at the same place.
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post #19 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 9:14 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
Guys, can someone please tell me the big O-Ring BMW part number or dimensions? Also the big oil seal BMW part number? Both for the 10/1998 FD. I searched the realoem site but they don't show.
Thanks
BMW uses the same large Seal and O-ring for all rear-drive of K1200LT (any years) and also on many other Boxer models between 1994-2004. Like VOYAGER has mentioned in previous post, I would suggest you use MAX-BMW parts fiche instead of realOEM. I have used MAX-BMW fiche for many years and in my opinion it is easier and better. HOWEVER prices are in $US and not in Euros.

1) Large SEAL of rear-drive cover: BMW part no: 33 12 7 663 482
link on MAX-BMW parts fiche for diagram (item 1): https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=33127663482


2) Large O-RING of rear-drive cover: BMW part no: 33 11 1 241 257
link on MAX-BMW parts fiche for diagram (item 6): https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=33111241257

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post #20 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 10:13 am Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
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BMW uses the same large Seal and O-ring for all rear-drive of K1200LT (any years) and also on many other Boxer models between 1994-2004. Like VOYAGER has mentioned in previous post, I would suggest you use MAX-BMW parts fiche instead of realOEM. I have used MAX-BMW fiche for many years and in my opinion it is easier and better. HOWEVER prices are in $US and not in Euros.

1) Large SEAL of rear-drive cover: BMW part no: 33 12 7 663 482
link on MAX-BMW parts fiche for diagram (item 1): https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=33127663482


2) Large O-RING of rear-drive cover: BMW part no: 33 11 1 241 257
link on MAX-BMW parts fiche for diagram (item 6): https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=33111241257
Thanks Sailor. Very precise help.
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post #21 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 10:24 am Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

All, finally we removed the failed bearing and it seems it suffered from operation and load. Maybe I loaded the gal too much but I believe you do the same too. I have a wife that rides with me. This can't be changed. From what I found is that our shimming was very correct as the bearing balls were running in the channel center. The rest looks that the inner ring suffered from wear. How would you justify this?
See my findings below and also the bearing printed data.

My humble opinion is that when BMW designed this bike they thought: "and what about the FD? what do we do?"
Someone replied: "Herren(in German) we have too many FD's on the shelf from smaller bikes to get rid off, why don't we just bolt them on the LT?"
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post #22 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 11:03 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
All, finally we removed the failed bearing and it seems it suffered from operation and load. Maybe I loaded the gal too much but I believe you do the same too. I have a wife that rides with me. This can't be changed. From what I found is that our shimming was very correct as the bearing balls were running in the channel center. The rest looks that the inner ring suffered from wear. How would you justify this?
See my findings below and also the bearing printed data.

My humble opinion is that when BMW designed this bike they thought: "and what about the FD? what do we do?"
Someone replied: "Herren(in German) we have too many FD's on the shelf from smaller bikes to get rid off, why don't we just bolt them on the LT?"
That is ugly. Dug up some specs on load. Do you know how much load you are placing on the bike and if over the limit, by how much?

Unladen Weight with Full Tank 378.5 Kg / 833 lb
Dry Weight 345 Kg / 759 lb
Permitted Total Weight 600 Kg / 1321 lb

Available capacity 221 Kg / 488 lb

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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #23 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 11:46 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
All, finally we removed the failed bearing and it seems it suffered from operation and load. Maybe I loaded the gal too much but I believe you do the same too. I have a wife that rides with me. This can't be changed. From what I found is that our shimming was very correct as the bearing balls were running in the channel center. The rest looks that the inner ring suffered from wear. How would you justify this?
See my findings below and also the bearing printed data.
This bearing inner race has been so damaged that it is nearly impossible to confirm a proper preload. If anything, the spalled patches are all off to one side of that inner race suggesting excess preload, spalling and then failure crap being fed thru the ball race. Failure will always start on the inner race of a ball bearing because the Herzian stresses will be higher than for the lesser radii of the outer race groove.

You can try to look up the formula for Herzian stresses between two spherical surfaces in a Roark's handbook ("Formulas for Stress and Strain") and it should be obvious. I understand it is out of print - probably as a result of widespread use of computers and finite element analysis.
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post #24 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 12:54 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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This bearing inner race has been so damaged that it is nearly impossible to confirm a proper preload. If anything, the spalled patches are all off to one side of that inner race suggesting excess preload, spalling and then failure crap being fed thru the ball race. Failure will always start on the inner race of a ball bearing because the Herzian stresses will be higher than for the lesser radii of the outer race groove.

You can try to look up the formula for Herzian stresses between two spherical surfaces in a Roark's handbook ("Formulas for Stress and Strain") and it should be obvious. I understand it is out of print - probably as a result of widespread use of computers and finite element analysis.
Im with Neil. The spalling appeared to be substantially off to one side suggesting too much preload. It is very unlikely that you overloaded the bearing during operation. As Neil said, Hertzian (with a t) theory says the stress will be greater on the smaller radii inner race which is why it generally fatigues first.

Time to rebuild with a little less preload.
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post #25 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 5:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
That is ugly. Dug up some specs on load. Do you know how much load you are placing on the bike and if over the limit, by how much?

Unladen Weight with Full Tank 378.5 Kg / 833 lb
Dry Weight 345 Kg / 759 lb
Permitted Total Weight 600 Kg / 1321 lb

Available capacity 221 Kg / 488 lb
Yes, maybe I have exceeded the load but I can't tell how much. I did not weigh my luggage. But, I can say this, the other much younger LT with 25K Km on it was loaded more than mine on the same last trip of 3400Km and suffered the same as my 105K Km LT. Why that one has no problem?
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post #26 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 6:09 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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This bearing inner race has been so damaged that it is nearly impossible to confirm a proper preload. If anything, the spalled patches are all off to one side of that inner race suggesting excess preload, spalling and then failure crap being fed thru the ball race. Failure will always start on the inner race of a ball bearing because the Herzian stresses will be higher than for the lesser radii of the outer race groove.

You can try to look up the formula for Herzian stresses between two spherical surfaces in a Roark's handbook ("Formulas for Stress and Strain") and it should be obvious. I understand it is out of print - probably as a result of widespread use of computers and finite element analysis.
Quote:
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I’m with Neil. The spalling appeared to be substantially off to one side suggesting too much preload. It is very unlikely that you overloaded the bearing during operation. As Neil said, Hertzian (with a “t”) theory says the stress will be greater on the smaller radii inner race which is why it generally fatigues first.

Time to rebuild with a little less preload.
Niel, Voyager, I know that I bought my bike to ride and enjoy it. Certainly I didn't buy it to study Mechanical Engineering on it. Yes, I'll even make my hands dirty by changing oil and filter, air filter, brake pads and other easy stuff. Not calculate the forces that should be calculated by BMW. If it's on Earth possible that BMW calculated 221 Kg load capacity on the LT and did not calculate a safety space to avoid this.
Does Gordon above mean that all failed FD's were misused and overloaded by all LT owners? All of us want to carry some stuff to and from our travels. Correct? Anyway it was named as Luxury Touring bike. This means that you are allowed to carry at least one tuxedo for yourself and at least 10 night gowns for your lady.
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post #27 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 8:07 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Niel, Voyager, I know that I bought my bike to ride and enjoy it. Certainly I didn't buy it to study Mechanical Engineering on it. Yes, I'll even make my hands dirty by changing oil and filter, air filter, brake pads and other easy stuff. Not calculate the forces that should be calculated by BMW. If it's on Earth possible that BMW calculated 221 Kg load capacity on the LT and did not calculate a safety space to avoid this.
Does Gordon above mean that all failed FD's were misused and overloaded by all LT owners? All of us want to carry some stuff to and from our travels. Correct? Anyway it was named as Luxury Touring bike. This means that you are allowed to carry at least one tuxedo for yourself and at least 10 night gowns for your lady.
I did not mean to infer that it was simply the load as when properly set up, those bearings are more than adequate for the rated load and probably a bit more. I agree with Voyager and Niel that the spalling does favor one side of the inner race which would indicate it was still slightly over shimmed. A heaver load may contribute to a faster demise as it will try and run the balls towards the center of the races increasing the force on the inner side. I am not sure by how much. Maybe swap the tuxedo for a couple of T-shirts and if you dare, get the misses to try and live with a few less gowns and see if you can get a few more miles on the next bearing

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
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post #28 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 10:06 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Sorry for the troubles you have encountered with this final drive. I'm totally unqualified to give you advice since I don't own a "K" bike, haven't even ridden one. However, I'm an incurable "tinkerer," with enormous curiosity and have taken the time to read your posts and what I believe is sincere attempts to help from others on this forum. However, to this point, it seems that everyone is concentrating on the bearing, and other perishable components, installation methods, etc.

I'm wondering about the final drive housing itself? Is it possible that the housing and bearing "seat" machining is out of spec? I've sold and serviced some of the most expensive name brand industrial tooling in existence. Pumps, conveyors, robots, powder coating systems, tooling, etc. Try as they might...sometimes things get by Quality Control Patrol.

Perhaps it would be good to get your hands on another housing and have a good machinist (not me) do a thorough micrometer comparison check on your housing? Although I spent years selling precision measuring tools, I use them so sparingly myself, I would have to refer to a manual every time I pull one out of my tool chest. Someone who uses them daily, could save you a lot of trouble by confirming the housing is worth rebuilding and not the problem. I hope you solve the issue as I'm sure we could all learn from the solution.

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post #29 of 43 Old Oct 28th, 2019, 11:03 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
Niel, Voyager, I know that I bought my bike to ride and enjoy it. Certainly I didn't buy it to study Mechanical Engineering on it. Yes, I'll even make my hands dirty by changing oil and filter, air filter, brake pads and other easy stuff. Not calculate the forces that should be calculated by BMW. If it's on Earth possible that BMW calculated 221 Kg load capacity on the LT and did not calculate a safety space to avoid this.
Does Gordon above mean that all failed FD's were misused and overloaded by all LT owners? All of us want to carry some stuff to and from our travels. Correct? Anyway it was named as Luxury Touring bike. This means that you are allowed to carry at least one tuxedo for yourself and at least 10 night gowns for your lady.
OK, let me make it as simple as I can: Your FD failure has NOTHING to do with overloading your LT. It has EVERYTHING to do with too much preload on the bearing during assembly. BMW made no miscalculation on LT load capacity. Their miscalculation was assuming that the average factory worker could properly shim an FD with the tools, training and procedures they were provided.

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post #30 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 3:32 am Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Originally Posted by Beemer tiger View Post
Sorry for the troubles you have encountered with this final drive. I'm totally unqualified to give you advice since I don't own a "K" bike, haven't even ridden one. However, I'm an incurable "tinkerer," with enormous curiosity and have taken the time to read your posts and what I believe is sincere attempts to help from others on this forum. However, to this point, it seems that everyone is concentrating on the bearing, and other perishable components, installation methods, etc.

I'm wondering about the final drive housing itself? Is it possible that the housing and bearing "seat" machining is out of spec? I've sold and serviced some of the most expensive name brand industrial tooling in existence. Pumps, conveyors, robots, powder coating systems, tooling, etc. Try as they might...sometimes things get by Quality Control Patrol.

Perhaps it would be good to get your hands on another housing and have a good machinist (not me) do a thorough micrometer comparison check on your housing? Although I spent years selling precision measuring tools, I use them so sparingly myself, I would have to refer to a manual every time I pull one out of my tool chest. Someone who uses them daily, could save you a lot of trouble by confirming the housing is worth rebuilding and not the problem. I hope you solve the issue as I'm sure we could all learn from the solution.
Yes, it would be a good idea to have another one to compare but none available. Buy one? Out of the question.
Thanks for your input.
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post #31 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 3:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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OK, let me make it as simple as I can: Your FD failure has NOTHING to do with overloading your LT. It has EVERYTHING to do with too much preload on the bearing during assembly. BMW made no miscalculation on LT load capacity. Their miscalculation was assuming that the average factory worker could properly shim an FD with the tools, training and procedures they were provided.
Correct, but I believe BMW used workers specialized on doing the floor and removing the trash out of the building. This is why the FD's failed big time.
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post #32 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 10:44 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Correct, but I believe BMW used workers specialized on doing the floor and removing the trash out of the building. This is why the FD's failed big time.
I doubt any of us know the truth here, but I am generally not inclined to blame the factory workers without good reason to do so. My experience is that more often than not, issues such as this which appear to have been systemic, at least for a time, are related to inadequate tooling, insufficient training or errors in the work process as designed.
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post #33 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 11:06 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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I doubt any of us know the truth here, but I am generally not inclined to blame the factory workers without good reason to do so. My experience is that more often than not, issues such as this which appear to have been systemic, at least for a time, are related to inadequate tooling, insufficient training or errors in the work process as designed.
Agree. I think over 90-percent of the failures are from the 99 model year to the 2001 model year. The factory changed something for us to see less failures. There is a chart somewhere on this forum which shows the percentage of failure for each year manufactured. Of course, the chart was last updated probably well before 2010.
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post #34 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 5:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Agree. I think over 90-percent of the failures are from the 99 model year to the 2001 model year. The factory changed something for us to see less failures. There is a chart somewhere on this forum which shows the percentage of failure for each year manufactured. Of course, the chart was last updated probably well before 2010.
So, Mike, you mean "hey guys, stay away from the 98-01 LT's and you won't get in trouble" correct? I said 98 because mine is built 10/98.
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post #35 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 8:08 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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So, Mike, you mean "hey guys, stay away from the 98-01 LT's and you won't get in trouble" correct? I said 98 because mine is built 10/98.
I guess my 2007 didnt get that memo.

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post #36 of 43 Old Oct 29th, 2019, 9:49 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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So, Mike, you mean "hey guys, stay away from the 98-01 LT's and you won't get in trouble" correct? I said 98 because mine is built 10/98.
I did not say that. I said 90 percent of the drive failures were on the early model LTs. I have been on this site since the yahoo days so I read when most of the failures happened. I will try to find the thread that shows the percentage of drive failures with what model year they occurred.

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post #37 of 43 Old Oct 30th, 2019, 9:50 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

The below links are some interesting reading for those concerned about your final drives. Most of the numbers were gathered by CharlieVT (Curtis). The last two links shows the numbers. Just remember, most of these surveys were done before 2007.


https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...nt-broken.html

From April 2006:
If you look at the rear drive survey the numbers would tend to point towards the fact that it helped. There were 30 failures reported in 02, 3 in 03, 1 in 04 & none so far in 05 or 06 models.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...r-bearing.html

From November 2006:
Actually, our statistics say differently. Pre'03 LTs had the most failures. Pre'05s had less than the previous group. And now, '05 and '06 LTs have less than 5 reported failures. BMW has done SOMEthing...even if they've never admitted to the issue.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...res-nhtsa.html

Survey Numbers from October 2005:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...y-results.html

Read post 12 $ 13 here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...e-failure.html
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post #38 of 43 Old Oct 30th, 2019, 11:27 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
The below links are some interesting reading for those concerned about your final drives. Most of the numbers were gathered by CharlieVT (Curtis). The last two links shows the numbers. Just remember, most of these surveys were done before 2007.


https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...nt-broken.html

From April 2006:
If you look at the rear drive survey the numbers would tend to point towards the fact that it helped. There were 30 failures reported in 02, 3 in 03, 1 in 04 & none so far in 05 or 06 models.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...r-bearing.html

From November 2006:
Actually, our statistics say differently. Pre'03 LTs had the most failures. Pre'05s had less than the previous group. And now, '05 and '06 LTs have less than 5 reported failures. BMW has done SOMEthing...even if they've never admitted to the issue.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...res-nhtsa.html

Survey Numbers from October 2005:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...y-results.html

Read post 12 $ 13 here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...e-failure.html
It sure would be great to see an update of this, but that likely is a lot of work. Also, the last comment in the thread said the survey had no answer for FD has not failed so I am not sure what the percentages of failure are referenced to, unless the comment is incorrect in regards to the survey. Given the mileage dependence of the failures, it is not surprisingly that the older bikes had had much higher failure rates. It would be interesting to see failure rates by both year and mileage, but again a lot fo work for little gain at this point in time.
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post #39 of 43 Old Oct 31st, 2019, 6:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
The below links are some interesting reading for those concerned about your final drives. Most of the numbers were gathered by CharlieVT (Curtis). The last two links shows the numbers. Just remember, most of these surveys were done before 2007.


https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...nt-broken.html

From April 2006:
If you look at the rear drive survey the numbers would tend to point towards the fact that it helped. There were 30 failures reported in 02, 3 in 03, 1 in 04 & none so far in 05 or 06 models.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...r-bearing.html

From November 2006:
Actually, our statistics say differently. Pre'03 LTs had the most failures. Pre'05s had less than the previous group. And now, '05 and '06 LTs have less than 5 reported failures. BMW has done SOMEthing...even if they've never admitted to the issue.

Complete thread here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...res-nhtsa.html

Survey Numbers from October 2005:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...y-results.html

Read post 12 $ 13 here:
https://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt...e-failure.html
Mike, great job, many thanks for digging back to these threads. But, we should not forget the percentage of riders not using the forums, many stay away from the kbd. So, are all the failures recorded? I doubt.
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post #40 of 43 Old Oct 31st, 2019, 9:31 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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Originally Posted by nikosK1200LT View Post
Mike, great job, many thanks for digging back to these threads. But, we should not forget the percentage of riders not using the forums, many stay away from the kbd. So, are all the failures recorded? I doubt.
It shouldn't matter if all the failures are recorded but did we get enough of a sample from our members to extrapolate relatively accurate percentages for model years, mileage at failure and years affected.

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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #41 of 43 Old Nov 1st, 2019, 8:16 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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It shouldn't matter if all the failures are recorded but did we get enough of a sample from our members to extrapolate relatively accurate percentages for model years, mileage at failure and years affected.
That may be true on the early model years, but not as sure on the later ones. Also, you do you recall if the survey had a response for FD has not failed? I saw one comment that claimed that the survey did NOT have that option, and without that, the statistics are pretty meaningless. I think the survey was well before my time so I dont recall seeing it.

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post #42 of 43 Old Nov 1st, 2019, 8:55 am
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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That may be true on the early model years, but not as sure on the later ones. Also, you do you recall if the survey had a response for FD has not failed? I saw one comment that claimed that the survey did NOT have that option, and without that, the statistics are pretty meaningless. I think the survey was well before my time so I dont recall seeing it.
No, I don't recall the survey and to get my data, it would have to have a question on had not failed but rebuilt it anyways as it was n the early years. I think I have the initial bearing still in a box. Maybe I will cut it open and inspect it. If it was original, it had 50k on it but since I was the 4th owner and no service records, I am unsure about it's originality. I did check the dealer service history and no such repair was recorded. That would be an important question though.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
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post #43 of 43 Old Nov 1st, 2019, 1:02 pm
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Re: Once more my FD bearing failed

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No, I don't recall the survey and to get my data, it would have to have a question on had not failed but rebuilt it anyways as it was n the early years. I think I have the initial bearing still in a box. Maybe I will cut it open and inspect it. If it was original, it had 50k on it but since I was the 4th owner and no service records, I am unsure about it's originality. I did check the dealer service history and no such repair was recorded. That would be an important question though.
My FD failed due to a pinion seal gone bad, but I had Tom replace the bearing and large seal as well as I wanted to be sure it was shimmed properly. The bearing did not show signs of distress after 27,000 miles, but I didnt want to risk using the original bearing again given the FD history and reputation. Had the bike been a Kawasaki, just the pinion seal would have been replaced ... which is what I did on my Kawasaki when it also had the pinion seal fail. The Voyager had no history of FD failures so I was quite confident just having the seal replaced.

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