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post #1 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 2:00 pm Thread Starter
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Break Pads?

I remember reading a thread long ago about Sintered vs. Organic (Kevlar) break pads; I'd like to know in layman's terms what is the difference? I'm replacing mine on the 02 with 25K miles.

This is not an attempt to create another oil or tire thread.

Thanks!

Chuck J

02 K1200LT (Black Beauty)

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post #2 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 2:44 pm
 
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Brake pads are normally available as organic, semi-metallic and sintered. Organic pads contain no metallic parts; semi-metallic are a mixture of organic and metallic parts; and sintered metal pads are made completely from metal. Although sintered pads typically give you optimum stopping performance, they also cause premature wear of the rotors. On the LTs, I found non-sintered pads worked just fine.
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post #3 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 3:29 pm
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Ebc Fa304

As we say in the South.....I'm "fixin" to get some Kevlar (organic) EBCs for my 99 K12 rears. I use the OEM sintered on the fronts. Get FA304 NOT FA304HH if you want the organics...HH means sintered.

I'm ordering mine from i-bike.com for $24.95......
http://i-bike.com/store/prdBuy.cfm?prd=1328

Wes Phillips
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post #4 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 6:35 pm
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I'm ordering FA304s from Ron Ayers up in Plano, TX. $22.95. Click here for info.
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post #5 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 7:19 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
I'm ordering FA304s from Ron Ayers up in Plano, TX. $22.95. Click here for info.
That's a good price! Thanks Dick... You little bargain shopper!
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post #6 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 8:13 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulfxray
That's a good price! Thanks Dick... You little bargain shopper!
Hi, Shawn -

I just remembered that Ron has had a booth at several of the CCR venues. I'm in need of a set of tires, and remembered that he also vends tires, so there I wuz, looking on his site for tires and saw the brake pad list. Figgered, what the heck - the price is definitely nice, so......

Still checking around on the tire prices too. Once I decide brand(s), guess I'll spend my allowance and put new shoes on ole Toad.
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post #7 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 8:32 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks Guys

Joe - Thanks for the info, this was just what I was looking to understand.

Dick - thanks for the link, looks like a good price even with the shipping.

Thanks All

Chuck J

02 K1200LT (Black Beauty)

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post #8 of 18 Old Jan 7th, 2007, 8:38 pm
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$22.38

They're less than $22.95......your site quotes $22.38 + $7 shipping.

i-bike was $24.95 + $6 shipping

I reckon I'll be ordering from Ron now....thanks for the link Dick.

Wes Phillips
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post #9 of 18 Old Jan 8th, 2007, 8:40 am
 
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Organic? So these are like free range brake pads?
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post #10 of 18 Old Jan 8th, 2007, 11:01 am
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Cool pad tech, a slightly deeper dive

Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Brake pads are normally available as organic, semi-metallic and sintered. Organic pads contain no metallic parts; semi-metallic are a mixture of organic and metallic parts; and sintered metal pads are made completely from metal. Although sintered pads typically give you optimum stopping performance, they also cause premature wear of the rotors. On the LTs, I found non-sintered pads worked just fine.
Joe's got it right. Just to add a bit from a few years (ok, decades) in brakes for planes, bikes, cars, WRC, HRC, NASCAR, Indy,...blah.. blah... etc....The organics and semi-mets are both held together with a thermosetting resin of some kind. The resins have a nasty habit or reversing themselves under high KE, so the pads crumble or sluff junk on the rotors. Brake engineers like me call this DTV, disc thickness variation. At triple digits this really sucks. The symptom is shudder or pulsations. Most bike pads are now sintered due to this issue. Notable exceptions are the rear of the GT (like Joe and I now ride) is NOT sintered. LT is sintered both front and rear. The organics and ceramics from some top firms today are really awesome with very linear torque over very wide ranges of operating conditions. Unfortunately, high load and high temp tend to bring out very non-linear behavior and this happens quickly with a tipping point style rate of change. Simply stated, they may be great then give up fast on you. Hawk, where I was president of their Performance Group, makes a ton of aircraft, clutch buttons, and motorcycle pads for Brembo...sintered. Now OE on Ducati and Aprilia. The newest Hawk sintered has some very good characteristics. They may launch an aftermarket line in 2007. So far, most of their work is OE, for example HD is mostly Hawk sintered pads in Hayes calipers. Hawk is now one of my clients.

With ABS an issue for us now, I suggest keeping your pads as OE. Many love the EBC. Perhaps there is a reason why EBC does not supply Brembo? I have not raced EBC nor did I put EBC in my LT or GT. If EBC makes you feel good, great. ABS adds a system compatability issue predicated on torque rise rates and stability. Friction varies with load, speed, temp, and pressure. For those of us who run fast, loaded, and pull high decels, we may find OE wanting in some regards.

I have also worked with Galfer and they do some great things. The fact that their MD is an old racer of 2-wheeled machines helps. Last time I was in Barcelona, he took me and SO out for dinner. They understand high speed and they are riders.

I recently ran the Hawk ceramics on my Mini Coooper S (all four corners) and they were amazing. Zero black dust, dead quiet, and sweet bite at very high KE. You can buy it at Tire Rack. But, I digress.

IMHO, good disc pads are cheap compared to one event of not stopping in time. SO and I ride together a lot and I want the best brakes I can find.
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post #11 of 18 Old Jan 8th, 2007, 12:02 pm
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The other issue here and the real reason, in my opinion, for going with the EBC organics , is to get rid of the screeching noise from the rear brakes that occured with BMW's change in OEM pad composition. From 1999 when my bike was new, I never had the screech noise issue until I had a pad replacement with the "new" pads....downhill ever since until the EBCs were discovered.

Wes Phillips
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98 R1200C (Sandy's bike) "Betty"
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post #12 of 18 Old Jan 8th, 2007, 8:12 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksailor
I remember reading a thread long ago about Sintered vs. Organic (Kevlar) break pads; I'd like to know in layman's terms what is the difference? I'm replacing mine on the 02 with 25K miles.

This is not an attempt to create another oil or tire thread.

Thanks!
If I remember correctly sintering is a process to form 'something' by heating it but not heating it to it's melting point.. I would guess that the metallic pads are formed using this type of process.. so you could have 'metallic, 'metallic sintered' and organic..

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post #13 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 1:02 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

Were they in Plano doing a show? I just emailed and they said they're in KY. I live in Lewisville and was going to drive over to Ron's to pickup my pads.

Syd
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post #14 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 1:35 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sydvicioustx
Were they in Plano doing a show? I just emailed and they said they're in KY. I live in Lewisville and was going to drive over to Ron's to pickup my pads.
Back in '07, when this thread ran, they were in Plano. Maybe they moved since then? Dunno.
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post #15 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 2:44 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

I just tried to log into Ron Ayers to order pads, and couldn't get anywhere. They show the FA304 HH, but not the FA304. I typed in the part number search, and it comes up. Then I typed that into the "where it goes" field, and they show no such part number. When I typed in FA246HH, it comes up fronts, but doesn't show FA246. Typed that into part # search, and got it. Typed it into "where it goes", no such part?
Tried to call them, and kept getting a message to press 2 to hold, which took me to, yep you guessed it, press 2 to hold.
Didn't take long to get pissed and hang up. All I really wanted to know is if I had to order FA246 twice for both fronts, or is one order all the pads? Think I'll just go OEM. Too frustrating.
Maybe I'll go take a chill pill and try again later.
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post #16 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 2:50 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

Having just read most of the archived brake pad threads and just watched the Paul Sayegh video #3. At time 52:10 Paul shows the package for the EBC FA244HH Sintered break pads. He had just finished modifying the brake pads by grinding a corner off.

Why does Paul use the EBC FA244HH and not the FA304 (or FA304HH) as discussed in the dozens of other threads?

Was the video made before EBC modified the rear brake pads to actually fit the bike?

The Ron Ayers site lists the EBC FA244HH for the Aprilia.

I thought I understood the part numbers, Sintered vs. Organic, Front vs. Rear. I truly like Paul's videos and advice and now I am confused again.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Glenn

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post #17 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 3:43 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennM86
Having just read most of the archived brake pad threads and just watched the Paul Sayegh video #3. At time 52:10 Paul shows the package for the EBC FA244HH Sintered break pads. He had just finished modifying the brake pads by grinding a corner off.

Why does Paul use the EBC FA244HH and not the FA304 (or FA304HH) as discussed in the dozens of other threads?

Was the video made before EBC modified the rear brake pads to actually fit the bike?
You are right on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennM86
The Ron Ayers site lists the EBC FA244HH for the Aprilia.
The bike may use the same brake pads with Brembo calipers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennM86
I thought I understood the part numbers, Sintered vs. Organic, Front vs. Rear. I truly like Paul's videos and advice and now I am confused again.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Glenn
The HH denomination os for sintered.

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post #18 of 18 Old Oct 27th, 2008, 4:41 pm
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Re: Break Pads?

Generally brake pads are classified into three categories:

Semi-metallic - These have steel fiber imbedded in the compound and can be very abrasive. There friction coefficient is relatively low (0.30 - 0.40 according to Bike magazine). On the plus side, they're cheap to manufacture.

Organic - These pads have friction material bonded together with heat resistant aramid fibers. These pads have low disc abrasion. These pads often feature very linear feel in my experience but lack the initial bite of sintered HH pads. Friction coefficient can be much better than semi-metallic. (0.40 - 0.55)

Sintered - These pads typically consist of a copper alloy blend with ferrous and ceramic particles. Most OEM pads nowadays are sintered even though they are more expensive than either of the two types above. Friction coefficient is highest (0.50 - 0.60).

Source: Bike Magazine
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