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post #1 of 97 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 9:07 pm Thread Starter
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Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I won't start until probably tomorrow night but I wondered if there is any virtue in bleeding out the old fluid while the old lines are in place versus just doing the system after the new lines are on?

It almost feels like flushing out as much of the old brake fluid as possible before putting new lines on would mitigate how much old brake fluid remains in the system somewhere, such as abs reservoirs, etc. Not worth wasting the new fluid?

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post #2 of 97 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 9:17 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I have replaced 7 sets of lines so far and find a full drain always makes it less messy.
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post #3 of 97 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 9:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
I have replaced 7 sets of lines so far and find a full drain always makes it less messy.
Just to be clear do you mean you do a full drain (gravity or pressure?) with old lines on and then replace the lines, and then do a bleed with new fluid? This is the first abs set I have done, I assume once I do the servo pumping process that will push out any old fluid and air in the abs res. areas?

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post #4 of 97 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 9:38 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I just pump out all the fluid so I don't have it dripping out of the removed lines. On refill I usually push fluid from the calipers to the ABS unit especially on the 2001-2004 since the reservoirs are remote.
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post #5 of 97 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 9:43 pm
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Don’t use pressure to drain the lines, just let them drain by gravity. That should effectively drain the hard lines too. Btw what year is the bike?
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post #6 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 12:00 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob307 View Post
Donít use pressure to drain the lines, just let them drain by gravity. That should effectively drain the hard lines too. Btw what year is the bike?

2003. The upper res. actually looks pretty clear upon looking. So, once I get all the new lines hooked up, that means there is just air everywhere, right? Will following Kirk's or JZ's process purge all the air without going for days, lol

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post #7 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 1:16 am
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Yes it will, I follow Kirk’s video. You use the pump to bleed the brake circuits. It’s actually pretty fast.
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post #8 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 7:23 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by fatbob307 View Post
Donít use pressure to drain the lines, just let them drain by gravity. That should effectively drain the hard lines too. Btw what year is the bike?
Yeah when I looked back at what I wrote... Don't use the pumps to clear the lines you do not want to run those motors dry. For the front put a hose and bag on the farthest front caliper and open the bleeder. Then crack loose the top front flex line banjo and let it all drain and then remove the lines. For the line from the MC to the hard line I put a catch pan at the hard line and undo the banjo, then crack the banjo at the MC ( I use a syringe and hose to suck out the fluid from the reservoirs first ).
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post #9 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 7:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Yeah when I looked back at what I wrote... Don't use the pumps to clear the lines you do not want to run those motors dry. For the front put a hose and bag on the farthest front caliper and open the bleeder. Then crack loose the top front flex line banjo and let it all drain and then remove the lines. For the line from the MC to the hard line I put a catch pan at the hard line and undo the banjo, then crack the banjo at the MC ( I use a syringe and hose to suck out the fluid from the reservoirs first ).
Appreciate that! I am currently carbing up and going over notes and videos and tips such as yours before I venture out into the garage

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post #10 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 11:00 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Be prepared to spend some serious time on this project the first time you do it. Did you order replacement banjo bolts as well? The news bolts will require more torque with the included washers than the torque needed for the originals.

Also, put the towel over the front of the bike by the brake lever. Before I was ready, my helper squeezed the lever and spewed fluid. Not so good. Take your time and you can do it.
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post #11 of 97 Old Oct 19th, 2018, 11:51 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Maybe someone can chime in on using the fluid to rinse any loose built up metal shavings at the bottom of your ABS unit waiting to be stirred up and sent through the system. As I read can happen, I am pretty convinced my brake fluid change sent metal into my rubber hoses, causing me to change them out with Spieglers. When removing a brake line, we saw some metal shavings. My friend said, "Looks like you will be replacing your ABS unit soon." I called him a lot of really bad names in my head but kept my mouth shut after his great help. I did flush all new fluid through my system after the new brake line install instead of circulating new fluid back into the system to get rid of air.
This is a two person job or least is made much easier with two people.
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post #12 of 97 Old Oct 20th, 2018, 2:23 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by guitarjim View Post
Maybe someone can chime in on using the fluid to rinse any loose built up metal shavings at the bottom of your ABS unit waiting to be stirred up and sent through the system. As I read can happen, I am pretty convinced my brake fluid change sent metal into my rubber hoses, causing me to change them out with Spieglers. When removing a brake line, we saw some metal shavings. My friend said, "Looks like you will be replacing your ABS unit soon." I called him a lot of really bad names in my head but kept my mouth shut after his great help. I did flush all new fluid through my system after the new brake line install instead of circulating new fluid back into the system to get rid of air.
This is a two person job or least is made much easier with two people.
Hey Jim, thanks for the tips! I haven't gotten to the brakes yet, just methodically doing the tupperware watching Kirk on the monitor in the garage. I did the RT so many times over the last four years it is very familiar except for some added layers. I have also discovered two dead well nuts, two missing bolts and two non-bmw phillips bolts along the bottom left plastic as well as two under the left tipover rubber that are T15, lol. I imagine I may find something similar on the right side in the morning, unsure. The good thing about setting up a foam folding board, at least for the first time is you can visualize what is missing and what is not oem. AC, owner of Eurotek BMW in OKC is throwing a Ducati luncheon tomorrow but invited the BMW trash so I must be there for that and will see about a couple of well nuts and some bolts .

With regard to the brakes, I did not get new banjo bolts, Kirk advised using the old ones so we shall see. What would shed metal pieces into the brake fluid?? Can those abs reservoirs be opened and evacuated? I haven't looked yet. Just to review, once I open the rear bleed bolt will it remove the front container of fluid and similarly from the front? Does anyone go in and clean out the receptacles or just let the fluid sweep it out? I don't know if the rear fluid container is dirty, the handlebar one looks pretty clean. My son is going to help when it comes time to operate the servos and pump/bleed.

JZeiller has mentioned pushing and I actually saw the device he has on a truck show on tv Jessie used to be on but don't have that, just a mity vac so intend to follow Kirk's process and hope for the best.

Are you around Wichita? I was born there, now in Yukon, OK, just west of OKC, maybe we can do a meetup one of these days once I get done catching Large Marge up, lol. I think most of the mature LT riders down here have switched to either 1600 GTL or went trike.
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post #13 of 97 Old Oct 20th, 2018, 5:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Yeah when I looked back at what I wrote... Don't use the pumps to clear the lines you do not want to run those motors dry. For the front put a hose and bag on the farthest front caliper and open the bleeder. Then crack loose the top front flex line banjo and let it all drain and then remove the lines. For the line from the MC to the hard line I put a catch pan at the hard line and undo the banjo, then crack the banjo at the MC ( I use a syringe and hose to suck out the fluid from the reservoirs first ).
I was in NAPA looking for some cinch clamps (no have) and stumbled upon a reverse bleeder kit that purports to push fluid as you describe back to the MC. You sound pretty sold on this, I may try it. First I will review your supplement to Kirk's video. Time to get cracking, lol.

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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Yes I push from the front calipers to the reservoir (05+ on the ABS; 2001-2004 the rear half of the dual reservoir under the pillion seat). I also push fluid from the ABS tall bleed nipple to the front handle bar reservoir. I never had any success pushing from the ABS tall bleeder to the rear MC reservoir as the line dips down and back up trapping air. I just fill the reservoir and pump the MC to move the fluid up to the ABS. Some one else said they leave the banjo loose on the MC until fluid starts to leak out, so that may be a good option. I just pumped the heck out of the rear MC until I got all the air out at the ABS. The rear caliper circuit will just drain down OK on its own once the reservoir is full since it is all down hill.
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2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #15 of 97 Old Oct 20th, 2018, 8:13 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Hey Jim, thanks for the tips! I haven't gotten to the brakes yet, just methodically doing the tupperware watching Kirk on the monitor in the garage. I did the RT so many times over the last four years it is very familiar except for some added layers. I have also discovered two dead well nuts, two missing bolts and two non-bmw phillips bolts along the bottom left plastic as well as two under the left tipover rubber that are T15, lol. I imagine I may find something similar on the right side in the morning, unsure. The good thing about setting up a foam folding board, at least for the first time is you can visualize what is missing and what is not oem. AC, owner of Eurotek BMW in OKC is throwing a Ducati luncheon tomorrow but invited the BMW trash so I must be there for that and will see about a couple of well nuts and some bolts .

With regard to the brakes, I did not get new banjo bolts, Kirk advised using the old ones so we shall see. What would shed metal pieces into the brake fluid?? Can those abs reservoirs be opened and evacuated? I haven't looked yet. Just to review, once I open the rear bleed bolt will it remove the front container of fluid and similarly from the front? Does anyone go in and clean out the receptacles or just let the fluid sweep it out? I don't know if the rear fluid container is dirty, the handlebar one looks pretty clean. My son is going to help when it comes time to operate the servos and pump/bleed.

JZeiller has mentioned pushing and I actually saw the device he has on a truck show on tv Jessie used to be on but don't have that, just a mity vac so intend to follow Kirk's process and hope for the best.

Are you around Wichita? I was born there, now in Yukon, OK, just west of OKC, maybe we can do a meetup one of these days once I get done catching Large Marge up, lol. I think most of the mature LT riders down here have switched to either 1600 GTL or went trike.
Yep, I live in Wichita. Glad you enjoy working on the bike. Once you get it all ready to go, you should have plenty of confidence in it. I love to ride when I can. Maybe we can meet up.

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post #16 of 97 Old Oct 21st, 2018, 12:19 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Yes I push from the front calipers to the reservoir (05+ on the ABS; 2001-2004 the rear half of the dual reservoir under the pillion seat). I also push fluid from the ABS tall bleed nipple to the front handle bar reservoir. I never had any success pushing from the ABS tall bleeder to the rear MC reservoir as the line dips down and back up trapping air. I just fill the reservoir and pump the MC to move the fluid up to the ABS. Some one else said they leave the banjo loose on the MC until fluid starts to leak out, so that may be a good option. I just pumped the heck out of the rear MC until I got all the air out at the ABS. The rear caliper circuit will just drain down OK on its own once the reservoir is full since it is all down hill.
"I also push fluid from the ABS tall bleed nipple to the front handle bar reservoir." I am not familiar with this nipple but will go see if something jumps out at me.

Update: is it in this picture or are you talking about up under the forks?
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post #17 of 97 Old Oct 21st, 2018, 11:22 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

In your photo the two long nipples are the ones to use. The one out board is the front and the other the rear.

These are the ports you will need to bleed at the end for the control circuits. Go in that order and back to 1 at the end for front and rear respectively.

OK I went and watched both videos. One is line replacement on a non-integral bike (replacement is the same for both non and integral bikes so that is OK except for the filling part. The second video is for a brake FLUSH not bleed on a 2004 integral bike. The difference is you want the hose vertical at the bleed ports so you can see when all the air is gone. No need to pump, open , close and pump again. Just keep the hose vertical and open the bleed port and pump away as air will not go DOWN the hose. Just pump unit the line is clear of bubbles.
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post #18 of 97 Old Oct 21st, 2018, 11:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Well in between social butterfly responsibilities I got the new lines on today. It was not difficult since I had it just about down to the nubbins, having the airhorn off makes life easier up front.

The only blips in the project involved the length of the two front caliper lines and the rear line:

The front ones had no slack margin at all. They were straight and just barely long enough to fit without struggle. As it is I wish I had another half inch of margin. I am not sure if the lines have to do much flexing up front but hopefully not much.

The rear line was not very close to the bends of the stock line. Both ends had fairly long straight necks. This caused the front to be a little close to the wheel for my tastes, and the rear did not follow the curvature of the rotor, it made for an offset curve. It all fit but not like the originals.

Are Spieglers known for being very precise fitting? There were also only two lines with ID tags and one I couldn't read, although to be honest it wasn't difficult to determine where they went.

So, they are on but am not pleased with the way the rear line sits at the moment. I don't think I should have to bend the shank other than re-positioning using their tool, which I had to do to both ends of the rear line.
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post #19 of 97 Old Oct 22nd, 2018, 10:07 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Chuck View Post
Well in between social butterfly responsibilities I got the new lines on today. It was not difficult since I had it just about down to the nubbins, having the airhorn off makes life easier up front.

The only blips in the project involved the length of the two front caliper lines and the rear line:

The front ones had no slack margin at all. They were straight and just barely long enough to fit without struggle. As it is I wish I had another half inch of margin. I am not sure if the lines have to do much flexing up front but hopefully not much.

The rear line was not very close to the bends of the stock line. Both ends had fairly long straight necks. This caused the front to be a little close to the wheel for my tastes, and the rear did not follow the curvature of the rotor, it made for an offset curve. It all fit but not like the originals.

Are Spieglers known for being very precise fitting? There were also only two lines with ID tags and one I couldn't read, although to be honest it wasn't difficult to determine where they went.

So, they are on but am not pleased with the way the rear line sits at the moment. I don't think I should have to bend the shank other than re-positioning using their tool, which I had to do to both ends of the rear line.
Yours look fine. The front lines are basically rigid as the calipers are bolted to the forks. My only concern is that every time I remove the calipers to change front tires, the hose fitting twists a little as I remove and install the calipers. The short hose is just too stiff to allow the slight twisting required to get the calipers off the rotors. No leaks yet, but I wonder about this long term.
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post #20 of 97 Old Oct 22nd, 2018, 2:17 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Yours look fine. The front lines are basically rigid as the calipers are bolted to the forks. My only concern is that every time I remove the calipers to change front tires, the hose fitting twists a little as I remove and install the calipers. The short hose is just too stiff to allow the slight twisting required to get the calipers off the rotors. No leaks yet, but I wonder about this long term.
I was having the same thoughts about that and emailed Matthias at Spiegler this morning with the pictures. He said they do barely have any slack and that was by design. He said removing and twisting the calipers and such would not be detrimental to the lines. He suggested "removing the M6 bolts for the left and right bracket at the lower fork legs to make it easier". Apparently no worries from Spiegler side . I still don't like the longer necks on the rear line but will see how they work. If I put the fitting on the outside of the stop tab it would bring the line further away from the wheel but I wonder if that would allow a gradual loosening since it would not be braced against the tab...will leave it as is for now.

Next up, the always-fun bleeding of the system, lol.

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post #21 of 97 Old Oct 22nd, 2018, 5:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

My Clymer manual came in an hour ago. I decided to just go to chapter 14, then chapter 15 to read about the bleed procedure for integral abs..."Please take it to a Dealer..." what the...
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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My Clymer manual came in an hour ago. I decided to just go to chapter 14, then chapter 15 to read about the bleed procedure for integral abs..."Please take it to a Dealer..." what the...
Yes, they omitted that procedure for some reason I donít understand. However, there are a number of resources on this site that describe the process. I think there is a document in the technical files section somewhere.
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post #23 of 97 Old Oct 22nd, 2018, 9:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Yes, they omitted that procedure for some reason I donít understand. However, there are a number of resources on this site that describe the process. I think there is a document in the technical files section somewhere.
Yup, I have accumulated them and several pointers from people here, etc...just sayin, lol...I guess the dealer process is foolproof, though, huh. Anyway, will be trying my luck at it tomorrow evening.

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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
In your photo the two long nipples are the ones to use. The one out board is the front and the other the rear.

These are the ports you will need to bleed at the end for the control circuits. Go in that order and back to 1 at the end for front and rear respectively.

OK I went and watched both videos. One is line replacement on a non-integral bike (replacement is the same for both non and integral bikes so that is OK except for the filling part. The second video is for a brake FLUSH not bleed on a 2004 integral bike. The difference is you want the hose vertical at the bleed ports so you can see when all the air is gone. No need to pump, open , close and pump again. Just keep the hose vertical and open the bleed port and pump away as air will not go DOWN the hose. Just pump unit the line is clear of bubbles.
OK I am going to start the bleed process this evening. Just to confirm, when JZeiler says "The difference is you want the hose vertical at the bleed ports so you can see when all the air is gone. No need to pump, open , close and pump again. Just keep the hose vertical and open the bleed port and pump away as air will not go DOWN the hose. Just pump unit the line is clear of bubbles."

He means the manual pulling and releasing of the front brake lever? So just leave it open and pull and release until it looks like no air bubbles are coming out of the bleed ports and traveling down the clear bleed hose? Do I still close the bleed port the final time on the pull stroke of the brake lever? Then after I do this and close the lid on the handlebar reserv., do the same thing but on the front part of the rear reserv?

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post #25 of 97 Old Oct 23rd, 2018, 10:05 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Yes just pump away with the lever (or pedal) and if it makes you feel better close the nipple at the bottom of the stroke. But it is not necessary since air will not flow down hill. You will get a feel for it when you see the bubbles move up and slightly down on the return stroke but you gain confidence after a few pumps when you see how it behaves. I use a piece of clear tubing hooked up to a discarded saline IV bag ( I had three back surgeries) and the bags are very durable and not affected by brake fluid.

Like wise when doing the wheel circuits just open the bleeder and pump away (with the key on) but watch the level in the reservoir, you don't want it to add air. Then when the line is free of bubbles close the bleed nipple and lower the bag and hose and remove.
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post #26 of 97 Old Oct 23rd, 2018, 10:53 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Yes just pump away with the lever (or pedal) and if it makes you feel better close the nipple at the bottom of the stroke. But it is not necessary since air will not flow down hill. You will get a feel for it when you see the bubbles move up and slightly down on the return stroke but you gain confidence after a few pumps when you see how it behaves. I use a piece of clear tubing hooked up to a discarded saline IV bag ( I had three back surgeries) and the bags are very durable and not affected by brake fluid.

Like wise when doing the wheel circuits just open the bleeder and pump away (with the key on) but watch the level in the reservoir, you don't want it to add air. Then when the line is free of bubbles close the bleed nipple and lower the bag and hose and remove.
Well the first steps went according to plan. We did the outer bleed nipple procedure. Took maybe 20 minutes because my son kept saying he saw bubbles coming up from the bottom of the handlebar res. After a bit we swapped and what he was seeing was the backwash disturbing the surface of the fluid, lol, no bubbles just a squirt of fluid back up. So we completed that circuit.

By the way that bleed tip was heck to get on for the outer nipple, lol. The rubber was pretty hard so I had to heat the right angle part with a heat gun and then it finally popped down between the nipple and the box beside it.

The inner nipple was easy to get to, HOWEVER we couldn't make the level in the funnel lower by using the brake lever again. It kind of pooched back up each time but the level never dropped. I finally hooked the hand vacuum device to the bleed hose and after a lot of strenuous pumping the level began dropping. I worked enough fluid through there for the level to drop twice from the top of the funnel tube to the top of the res. itself..but when I tried using the lever again like in the first step it will only drop a minute amount after many grip/release cycles. I am not sure what to do next. The res. on the handle bar is full and the front and rear part of the res. under the seat is full. When I pump the brake lever when the bleed nipple is open I hear a pressure hiss but it just is not working as I suspected.

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post #27 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 7:32 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Well the first steps went according to plan. We did the outer bleed nipple procedure. Took maybe 20 minutes because my son kept saying he saw bubbles coming up from the bottom of the handlebar res. After a bit we swapped and what he was seeing was the backwash disturbing the surface of the fluid, lol, no bubbles just a squirt of fluid back up. So we completed that circuit.

By the way that bleed tip was heck to get on for the outer nipple, lol. The rubber was pretty hard so I had to heat the right angle part with a heat gun and then it finally popped down between the nipple and the box beside it.

The inner nipple was easy to get to, HOWEVER we couldn't make the level in the funnel lower by using the brake lever again. It kind of pooched back up each time but the level never dropped. I finally hooked the hand vacuum device to the bleed hose and after a lot of strenuous pumping the level began dropping. I worked enough fluid through there for the level to drop twice from the top of the funnel tube to the top of the res. itself..but when I tried using the lever again like in the first step it will only drop a minute amount after many grip/release cycles. I am not sure what to do next. The res. on the handle bar is full and the front and rear part of the res. under the seat is full. When I pump the brake lever when the bleed nipple is open I hear a pressure hiss but it just is not working as I suspected.
I am somewhat confused by your description above. Are you familiar with the brake architecture of iABS? I am assuming your 2003 has the servo-based iABS similar to my 2007. There are actually 4 brake circuits that all need to be bled separately.

The two control circuits each have 3 bleed valves on top of the ABS body. Each control circuit needs to be bled 4 times as one of the bleed valves gets bled twice, once at the start of the bleed sequence and again at the end. If flushing only, then only one valve needs to be used per circuit, but if you have air in the system, then all 3 need to be bled in a specific sequence.

The two wheel circuits originate at the ABS body and are fed by the funnel screwed into the reservoir for each wheel. These are bled at the calipers using the servo motor driven pumps to push the fluid through. There are a total of 4 bleed valves for the wheel circuits: 2 on the rear caliper, one on each side of it, and then one on each of the front calipers. Each of these valves need to be bled using the pump to force fluid out.

If I understand your post, you are saying that you are unable to get the ABS pump to activate to bleed the wheel circuits. Is that correct?
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post #28 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 9:19 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I am somewhat confused by your description above. Are you familiar with the brake architecture of iABS? I am assuming your 2003 has the servo-based iABS similar to my 2007. There are actually 4 brake circuits that all need to be bled separately.

The two control circuits each have 3 bleed valves on top of the ABS body. Each control circuit needs to be bled 4 times as one of the bleed valves gets bled twice, once at the start of the bleed sequence and again at the end. If flushing only, then only one valve needs to be used per circuit, but if you have air in the system, then all 3 need to be bled in a specific sequence.

The two wheel circuits originate at the ABS body and are fed by the funnel screwed into the reservoir for each wheel. These are bled at the calipers using the servo motor driven pumps to push the fluid through. There are a total of 4 bleed valves for the wheel circuits: 2 on the rear caliper, one on each side of it, and then one on each of the front calipers. Each of these valves need to be bled using the pump to force fluid out.

If I understand your post, you are saying that you are unable to get the ABS pump to activate to bleed the wheel circuits. Is that correct?
Yes, servo-based. Let me say at the moment I do realize mention has been made of the difference between a flush and a bleed. I was following Kirk's integral flush procedure to start. My new Clymer manual says to take it to a shop so if there are instructions in it then I am missing where at the moment. So I am aware there is a more extended procedure, I just haven't been able to get it in front of me yet.

To be honest I half thought a bleed would be just a more protracted version of Kirk's flush procedure but your explanation obviously shows me there is more to it, I need to find those instructions. But, does the fact I can only seem to get fluid to come through the inner bleed nipple on the abs unit by using a vacuum source mean I need to do something first before getting to that nipple? JZeiler was clear to mention flush versus bleed but I also inferred Kirk's procedure would work but he obviously just did a single pass, then. I need more comprehensive instructions which is why I was disgusted there was nothing in the Clymer for integral versions, lol. Thank you for taking time to straighten me out so far.

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post #29 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 10:30 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Yes, servo-based. Let me say at the moment I do realize mention has been made of the difference between a flush and a bleed. I was following Kirk's integral flush procedure to start. My new Clymer manual says to take it to a shop so if there are instructions in it then I am missing where at the moment. So I am aware there is a more extended procedure, I just haven't been able to get it in front of me yet.

To be honest I half thought a bleed would be just a more protracted version of Kirk's flush procedure but your explanation obviously shows me there is more to it, I need to find those instructions. But, does the fact I can only seem to get fluid to come through the inner bleed nipple on the abs unit by using a vacuum source mean I need to do something first before getting to that nipple? JZeiler was clear to mention flush versus bleed but I also inferred Kirk's procedure would work but he obviously just did a single pass, then. I need more comprehensive instructions which is why I was disgusted there was nothing in the Clymer for integral versions, lol. Thank you for taking time to straighten me out so far.
There used to be a nice PDF describing this procedure in the technical files section. I just checked and it appears that section got lost when the forum last changed ownership. I am not able to find any of the old files. I thought I found something in the HOW (Hall of Wisdom), but when I click on the links there, nothing happens and my browser just seems to hang. I saved some of these files locally on my iMac, so let me check to see if I have the one on ABS bleeding.

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post #30 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 10:41 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I am not sure where I got this. I thought it was from this forum back in 2009, but I am not sure. This is the procedure I follow when bleeding or flushing my system. The only change is that for a flush I believe BMW issued a service bulletin saying that you needed to only bleed the control circuits through the tall bleed valves and did not need to go through the 1-2-3-1 cycle as is needed for a bleed. If I have time, I still do the full cycle with all three bleed valves as I suspect that does a little more thorough flush, but it does nearly double the time required for this process given how hard it is to access those valves.

I hope this helps you a little.
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post #31 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 11:19 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I am not sure where I got this. I thought it was from this forum back in 2009, but I am not sure. This is the procedure I follow when bleeding or flushing my system. The only change is that for a flush I believe BMW issued a service bulletin saying that you needed to only bleed the control circuits through the tall bleed valves and did not need to go through the 1-2-3-1 cycle as is needed for a bleed. If I have time, I still do the full cycle with all three bleed valves as I suspect that does a little more thorough flush, but it does nearly double the time required for this process given how hard it is to access those valves.

I hope this helps you a little.
This PDF file instructions are good and still valid for most BMW having the intergral-ABS with servos.
A couple of important caveat however:

1) the author originally wrote this for R1150RT/GS boxer models and had posted in another web site dedicated to the Boxer models. He/She never intended this to be specific for other BMW models.

2) The K1200RS and the 2nd gen K1200LT having the same ABS system (2002-2004 for USA) do not have the ABS unit located under the fuel tanks as shown in the PDF document.

3) The K1200RS and the 2nd gen K1200LT having the same ABS system (2002-2004 for USA) do not have the front/rear fluid container located on top of the ABS unit as shown in the PDF file. Instead these 2 containers are located in a separate 2 section single container located on right side a bit below the seat - most outward section of this container is for REAR circuit, the most inward is for FRONT.

4) The last generation of K1200LT (2005-2009 for USA) has the 2 front/rear fluid container located on top of the ABS unit as shown in the PDF file.

5) This document is a "normal" flush / bleeding procedure, thus it does not get in details of special methods to use when you have replaced one or several brake hoses (more air trapped in system). JZEILER has recently covered this problem using a "push fluid" method from either:
- ABS modulator control circuit bleed nipples (2 long horizontal nipples)
- Rear caliper bleed nipple
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post #32 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 11:53 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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This PDF file instructions are good and still valid for most BMW having the intergral-ABS with servos.
A couple of important caveat however:

1) the author originally wrote this for R1150RT/GS boxer models and had posted in another web site dedicated to the Boxer models. He/She never intended this to be specific for other BMW models.

2) The K1200RS and the 2nd gen K1200LT having the same ABS system (2002-2004 for USA) do not have the ABS unit located under the fuel tanks as shown in the PDF document.

3) The K1200RS and the 2nd gen K1200LT having the same ABS system (2002-2004 for USA) do not have the front/rear fluid container located on top of the ABS unit as shown in the PDF file. Instead these 2 containers are located in a separate 2 section single container located on right side a bit below the seat - most outward section of this container is for REAR circuit, the most inward is for FRONT.

4) The last generation of K1200LT (2005-2009 for USA) has the 2 front/rear fluid container located on top of the ABS unit as shown in the PDF file.

5) This document is a "normal" flush / bleeding procedure, thus it does not get in details of special methods to use when you have replaced one or several brake hoses (more air trapped in system). JZEILER has recently covered this problem using a "push fluid" method from either:
- ABS modulator control circuit bleed nipples (2 long horizontal nipples)
- Rear caliper bleed nipple
I thought I had one specific to the LT, but this is all I found in my local archives. And it appears that the old technical files and HoW section of this forum got trashed. I am pretty sure I had another document that was LT specific, but was much less detailed than this one. It showed the correct location and orientation of the ABS module, but omitted important details such as removing the pads and fully compressing the pistons in order to get as complete a fluid flush as possible. I am not sure many folks realize how much fluid is in the calipers, particularly with pads that are 70%+ worn. You can easily leave 25% or more of the old fluid in the system if you flush with the calipers on the bike and the pads at their quiescent position.
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post #33 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 1:27 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Voyager and Sailor thank you both, this is a potential lifesaver. I do recall JZeiler mentioning compressing the pads and I do this on my vehicle maintenance so had that covered.

If I follow this document and add the push methods JZeiler suggested after finishing the multiple rounds do you think this will cover all the bases? I am starting to read the doc while at work as I type this, may have more questions after if I am honest

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post #34 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 2:39 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Voyager and Sailor thank you both, this is a potential lifesaver. I do recall JZeiler mentioning compressing the pads and I do this on my vehicle maintenance so had that covered.

If I follow this document and add the push methods JZeiler suggested after finishing the multiple rounds do you think this will cover all the bases? I am starting to read the doc while at work as I type this, may have more questions after if I am honest
The added steps that Jzeiler suggested (pushing fluid from bleeders) should NOT be understood as a PLUS method or one more step to add at end. It should be understood as an alternate way to push fluid into the lines/system whenever you cannot get a hard front lever OR you cannot get a bit of resistance into the pedal (basically just pumping / pushing air with no results at the other end). Of course, with new brake hoses installed around (a lot of air), you might as well start with this alternate method to fill up all "empty space" more quickly.

Once you get fluid going thru from end-to-end (in the FRONT "Control-circuit" AND also in the REAR "Control-circuit") then you are at a normal bleeding / flushing state.

Next step is to do the Front and Rear "Wheel circuits" where you actually use the ABS-Modulator + battery power to push fluid from 2 sections container to each calipers (front and rear separately of course). Again, because of new hoses and a lot of air, the fluid might not be pumped from the 2 section container into the modulator. Hence the added step to "fill the lines and push the air" by pushing fluid from each Front/Rear Calipers to side container (with ignition OFF as you are using a seringe type method to push yourself).

IMPORTANT: in a normal bleed / flush it is not important to do "Control-circuits" before "wheel-circuits", but in the case of new brake hoses (with air in system) I would suggest to do this as stated above.

ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND that the fluid from "control-circuits" (master-cylinder to ABS modulator) does not touch or mix with the fluid of the "Wheel-circuits" (ABS modulator to the Calipers). These are 4 separate circuits that only get their feedback / pressure thru sealed valves and pressure sensors (Front Control , Rear Control , Front Wheel-circuit , Rear Wheel-circuit). The only somewhat mixed design is the fact the Rear section of the side fluid container (K1200LT of 2002-2004) will feed both the Rear master-cylinder AND ALSO the rear wheel-circuit to compensate for rear brake pads wear.

Hope this helps.... otherwise just ask Jzeiler to clarify. Contrary to me, his main language is English ;-)
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Just to be sure as I'm not picking up if this is happening.

You DO have on the key?

You DO hear the servos whine when you use the front and rear brake levers?

You don't need to pump the lever since the pump is going to push the fluid for you to the calipers.

I put a quarter in the handlebar reservoir to prevent any splash from the return hole.
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Looks like you have good fluid flow on the front control circuit so it is now ready to bleed F1, F2, F3 and F1 again like in the picture I posted earlier in post #17 above. I put a dull box cutter blade in the front reservoir so it will not squirt up and out the vent hole when you squeeze the lever.

The rear control circuit can be a bear to get good fluid flow on but you just have to keep at it. For it you should be pumping the foot pedal and NOT the hand lever. You must use the correct MC (front or rear) on the control circuit bleed. Once you get good fluid flow then you need to bleed R1, R2, R3 and R1 again until all air is gone.

It does not matter which you use for the wheel circuit bleed as either one will pump fluid to both the front and rear calipers with the key on.

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post #37 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 9:59 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Originally Posted by alabrew View Post
Just to be sure as I'm not picking up if this is happening.

You DO have on the key?

You DO hear the servos whine when you use the front and rear brake levers?

You don't need to pump the lever since the pump is going to push the fluid for you to the calipers.

I put a quarter in the handlebar reservoir to prevent any splash from the return hole.
Alabrew, if you were speaking to me, I did not get past the first step while following Kirk's flush procedure for an integral system (2003) but I hope to have the key on and hear servos whining at the appropriate time . The quarter and box cutter blade ideas are good, I briefly thought of doing that after spending the extra time wondering why a bubble comes up every time, lol. Also, I see you live in Pelham ...I grew up for many years up in Albertville which is north of Guntersville Lake. Our church had a campground down by Calera and I recall going through there several times for snacks on the way or back, lol. I would yell WAR EAGLE but I also like ROLL TIDE even though I yell BOOMER SOONER these days , later.

I have printed off all the good info and feel I have a better idea how to start the process again. But...not tonight. There is a game on

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post #38 of 97 Old Oct 24th, 2018, 10:55 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Dang that F2 bleeder is gonna be tough to get to without removing the battery, lol.

Well I removed the battery hold-down may be able to get her in there. Do they make daintier right-angle bleeder tips?? The ones in my vacuum kits are big and un-bendy without heating. I wonder if they make a bendy-straw type tip to get down in there??? (laughing at whining going on in my garage)

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post #39 of 97 Old Oct 25th, 2018, 12:04 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

My vac set came with right angle connectors as an option. Yep, I use them on those bleeders on the ABS unit. There isn't a lot of room to work. Be ready when you use the pump for the brake fluid because that pump moves the fluid very fast.
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post #40 of 97 Old Oct 25th, 2018, 11:31 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I just use a hose with no tip and dry the inside with a q-tip before sliding on the bleed nipple. They stay put and get into tight spaces. Actually it is the hose that comes with the $6 speed bleeder bag only I use it with an IV bag now. Silicone hose slightly small than the bleed nipples. BMW has a special tool just for those side ports looks like a 7 mm socket drilled for a hollow tube and an o-ring in the socket.
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2004 330 Ci Convertable
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post #41 of 97 Old Oct 25th, 2018, 12:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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I just use a hose with no tip and dry the inside with a q-tip before sliding on the bleed nipple. They stay put and get into tight spaces. Actually it is the hose that comes with the $6 speed bleeder bag only I use it with an IV bag now. Silicone hose slightly small than the bleed nipples. BMW has a special tool just for those side ports looks like a 7 mm socket drilled for a hollow tube and an o-ring in the socket.
Is that a kit from off the shelf at some auto parts store or only online or what, JZ?

Oklahoma City, OK. 2003 K1200 LT. "Remember men, if the women don't find ya handsome, at least let 'em find ya handy." Red Green
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post #42 of 97 Old Oct 25th, 2018, 9:55 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

You can check here for the speed bleeders hose and bag. Or you can go to your local model hobby shop and get some model airplane fuel tubing. Similar product.

While I don't care for the speed bleeder nipples that claim it make it a one man operation I do like the bag and hose (well I used to like the bag until I found IV bags) they sell. The nipples have a sealant on the threads and it is just too hard to tell when you have closed them and they would strip out the brake cylinder on my MGB.

Oh but I guess you asking about the special tool then weren't you. You can order it from BMW or you can make your own if you are handy with drilling a socket and sealing up the open end of the tube. Really don't need it with the tubing. A bent 7 mm box end wrench is helpful.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #43 of 97 Old Oct 26th, 2018, 6:56 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Some of the local auto parts stores offer bleeder bags, they just don't stock them for some reason.

O'Reilly's shows them for $9, but special order...
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...639500/4706817

They work great for one person bleeding.

I'm familiar with Albertville, used to take the SWMBO up to the outlet stores near there. I actually live closer to Calera and work in Pelham.
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Motorcycle Cigar Smoker
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Gone, but not forgotten...
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post #44 of 97 Old Oct 26th, 2018, 10:29 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Some of the local auto parts stores offer bleeder bags, they just don't stock them for some reason.

O'Reilly's shows them for $9, but special order...
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...639500/4706817

They work great for one person bleeding.

I'm familiar with Albertville, used to take the SWMBO up to the outlet stores near there. I actually live closer to Calera and work in Pelham.
I need to get down there to see some kin down around Jasper in Walker County, soon and then on to Jacksonville...too many kinfolk, lol.

I had a little bleeder kit with a hard plastic container and some fitting and some tubing, I guess if I hold it up above the bleeder it would do the same thing. Walking through all the info and will start in the morning, right now I think I will prep the front calipers and do it again with the instructions. Found some longer 3/16 tubing so will fix up some lengths for the F and R bleed ports. Right now watching Walker Buehler throw a great game

Oklahoma City, OK. 2003 K1200 LT. "Remember men, if the women don't find ya handsome, at least let 'em find ya handy." Red Green
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post #45 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 1:58 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

Well my son came over today and we had time to complete the front and rear wheel circuit bleed process. We then started the R3 rear control circuit process but our ability to get fluid to come out did not proceed as the instructions detailed with regard to only pushing down halfway on the rear brake pedal. We had to push pretty hard once it got pressure in order for the new fluid to come out R3, otherwise if just kind of shifted a bit and only an occasional drop came out. When we started applying more pressure on the pedal then opening the valve it got more fluid to moving and we ran multiple funnel fills through, finally closing it up. I realize abruptly shifting the fluid could cause some very tiny bubbles but we didn't see any coming down the tube. Might try it again but I don't understand why that circuit is so difficult to move. This was ignition off of course.

We then had to go our separate ways. I do need to round up some offset bleeder port wrenches so I can put the tubing on while tightening and loosening the port, forgot about that. I didn't think to check but assuming those bleeder ports on the abs unit are all 7mm? Too tired to check tonight That 300 dollar bill for having the shop do it seems cheaper every day, lol.

Oklahoma City, OK. 2003 K1200 LT. "Remember men, if the women don't find ya handsome, at least let 'em find ya handy." Red Green
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post #46 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 8:03 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Well my son came over today and we had time to complete the front and rear wheel circuit bleed process. We then started the R3 rear control circuit process but our ability to get fluid to come out did not proceed as the instructions detailed with regard to only pushing down halfway on the rear brake pedal. We had to push pretty hard once it got pressure in order for the new fluid to come out R3, otherwise if just kind of shifted a bit and only an occasional drop came out. When we started applying more pressure on the pedal then opening the valve it got more fluid to moving and we ran multiple funnel fills through, finally closing it up. I realize abruptly shifting the fluid could cause some very tiny bubbles but we didn't see any coming down the tube. Might try it again but I don't understand why that circuit is so difficult to move. This was ignition off of course.

We then had to go our separate ways. I do need to round up some offset bleeder port wrenches so I can put the tubing on while tightening and loosening the port, forgot about that. I didn't think to check but assuming those bleeder ports on the abs unit are all 7mm? Too tired to check tonight That 300 dollar bill for having the shop do it seems cheaper every day, lol.
I am not sure why that set of instructions says to press the rear pedal only halfway. I use full travel both front and rear. Maybe someone will chime in if they know why the full travel should not be used.

I had a heck of a time bleeding my rear control circuit when I replaced my brake lines. I think it took 3 or 4 bleed attempts on the rear before I could get it to pass the bleed test with the GS911. It must be the geometry of the rear master cylinder and lines, but it seemed like that rear circuit had a bubble making machine built into it. I think I used a full quart bottle of brake fluid before I finally got both front and rear to pass the bleed test, but the front only took a couple of bleed cycles. I think letting the rear sit overnight in between attempts helped also. Good luck! That rear can be a bear.
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post #47 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 9:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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I am not sure why that set of instructions says to press the rear pedal only halfway. I use full travel both front and rear. Maybe someone will chime in if they know why the full travel should not be used.

I had a heck of a time bleeding my rear control circuit when I replaced my brake lines. I think it took 3 or 4 bleed attempts on the rear before I could get it to pass the bleed test with the GS911. It must be the geometry of the rear master cylinder and lines, but it seemed like that rear circuit had a bubble making machine built into it. I think I used a full quart bottle of brake fluid before I finally got both front and rear to pass the bleed test, but the front only took a couple of bleed cycles. I think letting the rear sit overnight in between attempts helped also. Good luck! That rear can be a bear.
Thanks, that made me feel better knowing I am not alone in scratching my head on all this, lol. To top this weekend off, I spoke to an unnamed BMW mechanic who believed since I only changed the lines that there would be no need to go through the repeated steps for the abs unit since i didn't open it up and that the residual fluid in the hard lines would prevent air from gett into the unit. (scratching head). It was free advice .

Oklahoma City, OK. 2003 K1200 LT. "Remember men, if the women don't find ya handsome, at least let 'em find ya handy." Red Green
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post #48 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 10:12 am
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

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Thanks, that made me feel better knowing I am not alone in scratching my head on all this, lol. To top this weekend off, I spoke to an unnamed BMW mechanic who believed since I only changed the lines that there would be no need to go through the repeated steps for the abs unit since i didn't open it up and that the residual fluid in the hard lines would prevent air from gett into the unit. (scratching head). It was free advice .
Worth all that you paid for it.
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1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
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post #49 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 3:08 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

OK, someone please enlighten me, WHAT TOOL are you using to allow you to open and close those bleeder ports on the abs unit that aren't the long ports????? (clawing at eyes) Tried two or three different offset bleed wrenches, they don't seem to make a 7mm pivot head wrench...HOW!!!!!!

Oklahoma City, OK. 2003 K1200 LT. "Remember men, if the women don't find ya handsome, at least let 'em find ya handy." Red Green
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post #50 of 97 Old Oct 28th, 2018, 4:47 pm
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Re: Question About Brake Bleeding/Spiegler line replacement

I use a bent 7 mm box end wrench. I also have the BWW tool that has a 1/4 drive on it. But some times I just wriggle a regular 7 mm wrench in there. You can make one by buying a cheap 7 mm box wrench and using a torch to heat it up and bend it in a vise. Also you can at least break it loose and then lightly close it with a 7 mm socket, then put the hose on and crack it open with a regular wrench. That is why I use the elevated hose trick so I don't have to really open it and close it more than once.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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