New Design LT - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 29 Old Jan 3rd, 2007, 7:51 pm Thread Starter
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Exclamation New Design LT

I was told by a definitive source within the BMW organization over the holidays two items of certainty and two items of visually substantiated rumor.

1. There is a new design LT well into development.

2. It will be a 2009 model.

3. It will have a new engine design, a variation of which will be used on at least two other models most likely BMW's re-entry into the cruiser market.

4. The cruiser may precede the LT as BMW NA dealers continue to clamor for a bike(s) to fill the fastest growing rider segment and style demand.

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post #2 of 29 Old Jan 3rd, 2007, 8:08 pm
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post #3 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 12:52 pm
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Which of the four items are rumor and which are the virtual certainty?
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post #4 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 1:06 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronk1200lt
Which of the four items are rumor and which are the virtual certainty?
Actually it was "two items of certainty and two items of visually substantiated rumor".

Numbers one and two are broadly shared within the personnel at BMW Mototrrad USA.

Items 3 and 4 would be new. While they are certainly plausible, I have heard neither from the people I have spoken with. The one fact remains that BMW Motorrad USA has rarely heard specifics about new products from BMW A.G. until just before the market launch, so it is still rumors at this point.

The 55-degree four in the S, R, R-sport and GT models would be a very capable engine for a new Luxury Touring platform, but I suppose it is possible they are developing (or more likely are sharing, with Rotax) a new engine. I would be interested to see an engine that could be visually appealing in a cruiser and would be powerful and smooth enough for the next LT.

The dealers have been clamoring for a cruiser for several years, most believe the boxer would make a great cruiser, but failed to understand why BMW chose the impotent 1200 that they used in the R1200C.

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post #5 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 2:46 pm
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Depends what you mean by impotent.

I agree that the Cruiser 1200 has less than 60hp, but nontheless it is sufficient for the type of riding 90% of its owners are going to use it for, i.e. stay in top gear all day long.

Anyway, I am going off topic here.

V6 ?.
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post #6 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 3:04 pm
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The engine rumor for the next-gen LT has been around for a while in different versions:

1. It was going to be half of the V12 electrically actuated valve engine from the 7-series. Told to me by someone from BMW AG at the BMWMOA rally in Trenton, ON.

2. It was going to be a version of the 1800cc Mini engine. Told to me by an ex-BMW AG executive who was working as a consultant to Yamaha.

3. Rumors of a Rotax-based 1600 to 1800cc engine surfaced in BMWRA OTL a couple years ago.

4. For the past year, all the rumors have been around the next-gen LT having the 1200cc slant4 engine.

5. BMW is developing an all new platform for the next-gen LT.

Given that the profit margins and long-term viability of the BMW Motorrad division have been in question for so long, I don't see how 1, 2, or 5 could be true. I'm leaning toward 4 as the most likely candidate, but 3 is a possibility, albeit a longshot.


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post #7 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 3:20 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randy
I would be interested to see an engine that could be visually appealing in a cruiser and would be powerful and smooth enough for the next LT.
1800cc Boxer Four

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post #8 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 4:44 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simoncharles
Depends what you mean by impotent.

I agree that the Cruiser 1200 has less than 60hp, but nontheless it is sufficient for the type of riding 90% of its owners are going to use it for, i.e. stay in top gear all day long.

Anyway, I am going off topic here.

V6 ?.
I mean impotent in that it didn't sell. A large percentage of the prospective buyers were less than thrilled with the power and chose to look elsewhere.

I also don't understand why they chose to forgo the paralever on the R1200C (and CL).

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post #9 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 4:47 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallyho
1800cc Boxer Four
I'll buy that as a plausable rumor, a boxer four rumor has been floated on a number of occasions, though the rumors seemed to die a couple of years ago. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

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post #10 of 29 Old Jan 4th, 2007, 5:17 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randy
I'll buy that as a plausable rumor, a boxer four rumor has been floated on a number of occasions, though the rumors seemed to die a couple of years ago. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
A boxer four would solve a number of issues. In a cruiser it could look something like the Valkyrie when chromed out but (unfortunately) might look too much like a GL for BMW to go with that design on a new LT. Then again, it might not matter depending on the fairing design. Personally, I think it would be awesome and might be just the thing to get GL and HD riders looking over their shoulder. But yes, the vigil continues. I think we will start seeing more solid evidence by the fall. They will have to have a mule up and running on a new engine by then.

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post #11 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 8:43 am
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New Design LT

When talking to my dealer last month, he hinted that the current GT engine would probably be used, IF they were to do a new LT. He felt the market in LT's against some of the newer models was very slow and the amount of profit was not enough to guarantee a new model. He thought it would be around 2009/2010 by the time it appeared.

Surely one of the bonuses of the brick engine is that it keeps the weight low. Wouldn't a GT type engine raise the CoG?.


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post #12 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 9:31 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axamax
------------Surely one of the bonuses of the brick engine is that it keeps the weight low. Wouldn't a GT type engine raise the CoG?.
The new "K" engine has a considerably lower CG than the Brick. Look where the crankshaft/flywheel assembly is in the two bikes. That is the heaviest part of the engine, and it is pretty high on the LT, very low on the GT. Also, on the GT the engine is slanted WAY forward, much more than on any other transverse engine bike, bringing the mass of the cylinder and heads lower than the competition. Needs a little longer wheelbase though, so sportbike handling is compromised a little because of that. Made up for in other ways though.

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post #13 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 11:38 am
 
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Let' s say BMW would consider the new K engine..... Would there be enough smooth dramatic pulling torque for a longer wheel base (more weight), two up (more weight), and travel luggage (more weight)?

My point is.... why create another LT (to compete with the GL1800) that does not have the dramatic performance of an engine like the Honda 1800?
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post #14 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 12:20 pm Thread Starter
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I believe their goal is to produce a very dynamic, fully redesigned luxury touring offering. If they use the three year old "newer" K40 engine two years from now it will be pretty ho-hum. I have only heard this rumor "if they continue the LT" from dealers. Gee whiz, you mean if I want a "new" LT I'll have to buy one you currently have on the floor because that's all there is and there ain't no more? My contact in DE says this is BS. BMW is not giving up the luxury market and is not necessarily committed to a water-cooled engine in the next LT. One sales dynamic of luxury BMW riders is that when they decide to buy more bikes for themselves, their SOs, or kids, guess what brand they buy? There is a very strong brand loyalty among LT owners and as we have seen on this site, even if a rider gives up his LT 99% of the time it's for a different BMW model or two or three. Not all models have to be profitable or as profitable on their own and let's not forget all the accessories and clothing LT riders pick-up and change out every season. They probably make more money on a BMW riding suit than a K1200S already. Then there's the service profit quotient. Yes Virginia, there will be a new LT in 2009.

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post #15 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 4:14 pm
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The only logical choice then is a boxer 6! No water or radiator, so it will be lighter, and if your feet get cold you can just put them on top of the jugs!

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post #16 of 29 Old Jan 5th, 2007, 9:29 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallyho
If they use the three year old "newer" K40 engine two years from now it will be pretty ho-hum.
I'm officially calling BULLSHIT on this thread. For you to say something like this is absolutely, 100% silly. The flying brick was 15 years old when it arrived in the current-generation LT, and YOU bought one. How freakin' ho-hum was it then? Geez!


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post #17 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 6:25 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
I'm officially calling BULLSHIT on this thread. For you to say something like this is absolutely, 100% silly. The flying brick was 15 years old when it arrived in the current-generation LT, and YOU bought one. How freakin' ho-hum was it then? Geez!
I agree, 150 hp will never be boring...

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post #18 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 10:34 am
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Next Gen LT

Hey Guys: I heard a rumor from a guy that works as a floorsweeper at a BMW dealership that the next LT is gonna have a downsized Chrysler Hemi in it!!! Then, after about a year or two of that engine they are gonna switch to a smaller version of the Duramax diesel. Waht do you think? Was he lying to me??? Oh yeah, he found these "facts" in a garbage can he was emptying out.................................Rick
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post #19 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 10:48 am
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Too funny!!!


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post #20 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 12:42 pm
 
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Hemi??? I'm thinking it's gonna have one of those modified Rotax Evinrude E-Tech 90 degree 225's. Rock and roll baby!
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post #21 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 2:28 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljeffe
I'm officially calling BULLSHIT on this thread. For you to say something like this is absolutely, 100% silly. The flying brick was 15 years old when it arrived in the current-generation LT, and YOU bought one. How freakin' ho-hum was it then? Geez!
I just reread the site rules and can't find the one where anyone officially calls BULLSHIT even a moderator or member of the board or site founder. Does calling something BULLSHIT then allow every other comment to become belittlement and sarcasm? I just wanted to know the rules. I am entitled to my opinion which is based on my perspective. As a luxury touring rider since 1978(full dress GL1000) I feel I am "allowed" these criteria. I was hoping in checking the rules that only LT owners could call BULLSHIT on an LT thread.

My ho-hum comment has NOTHING to do with the performance and style of the awesome K40 engine or the platforms into which it is currently offered. Are you trying to say the brick engine in my LT is the same as the K100 or the K40? Are you trying to imply the new R1200 engine is the same as an R60 airhead or even an R1100? I am looking at the overall marketing strategy of a new LT design to EVERYONE in the luxury touring demographic. Not just current owners or previous owners on this site. To speculate on the question of why they might building something completely new. Holding off for three or four years on a new LT then ending up using a K40 is a bullshit strategy and "absolutely silly" in my opinion. Owners of other brands may take a look at the "new" LT and indeed be ho-hum about it. "More of the same from BMW. A detuned sport engine just like they did in the late 90s." Then again maybe my discussion and passing along information I have from decent sources is really more global just to keep current LT riders on the hook and looking forward to the new "flagship motorcycle for all riders that like to travel two-up." I would buy a 2007 LT this afternoon if was available with a modified K40 as would 600 other guys on this site but would anyone else? The last thing BMW will do is release a new LT without a huge measure of new excitement and pizazz to both the motorcycle press and luxury riding community. Anything less would indeed be 100% silly.

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post #22 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 2:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallyho
I just reread the site rules and can't find the one where anyone officially calls BULLSHIT even a moderator or member of the board or site founder. Does calling something BULLSHIT then allow every other comment to become belittlement and sarcasm? I just wanted to know the rules. I am entitled to my opinion which is based on my perspective. As a luxury touring rider since 1978(full dress GL1000) I feel I am "allowed" these criteria. I was hoping in checking the rules that only LT owners could call BULLSHIT on an LT thread.
I'm not allowed to call it as I don't own an LT Even if I was, you could call it on my calling it.

I guess calling it might just be it

While I think Jeff was out of line for calling it, I do feel the K4x engine is far from "ho-hum", but that is only my opinion. You have yours and Jeff has his.

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post #23 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 2:58 pm
 
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post #24 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 3:34 pm
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My seat of the pants (far from scientific) feeling about the K4x powerplant is that it has more torque than the LT across its entire range. My driveway is fairly steep and the GT van virtually idle up it, even with a passenger and full luggage, where the LT is not able to do this with only a rider. Certainly this could be attributable to gearing, but I feel the GT engine generates more torque off idle than the LT. Charts comparing the two under equal means of measurement will likely prove it, but the difference will likely be fairly small. The K4x engine has a bore so much larger than its stroke is long, making it square would bring its displacement up to nearly 1600cc and give it much more torque. The wet clutch on the new platform is also easier to modulate than the dry clutch of the LT.

Because the engine on the GT is directly mounted to the frame, you do feel more through your feet and hands - not the smoothness of the LT. While I am very happy with the GT, I still stand by my statement above that the current LT is a very special bike. It will be one I will look back on as the best I have ever owned. The GT suits me now, as does the S and the GS, but none of these is as good in as many ways as the LT. None of them made me as instantly comfortable as the LT, though the GS is close. None of them offer the protection from wind and elements that the LT does. The transmission on the GT is a little lacking in civility, but the engine is clearly a more modern design. Will the new 55-degree engine have the durability and reliability of the K589 - only time will tell. To me it seems to be a very good engine. The new Hossack front suspension is smoother and more compliant than the telelever on the LT, but the LT still blows away the rest of its competition in this regard.

BMW could redesign the LT on the new K4x platform or a different engine and completely miss the boat, or they could hit a home run. The current LT, as a sum of its qualities, has set the bar pretty high.

I certainly would have missed some of the best riding in my life if I had waited for something better than the LT to come along. I am not certain there is anything better out there yet.

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post #25 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 4:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Tallyho
The last thing BMW will do is release a new LT without a huge measure of new excitement and pizazz to both the motorcycle press and luxury riding community. Anything less would indeed be 100% silly.
BMW spent a lot of R&D $$$ designing the new slant4 and taking it to market. The current slant4 engine can easily be be modified to a 1400cc and even 1600cc displacement without compromising the design. Given the performance characteristics of the platform and the fact that it is truely a modern engine (unlike the boxer and flying brick), it is a prime candidate for the next generation luxury tourer -- and provide plenty of excitement and pizazz the motorcycle press craves. There's no need to get into the displacement wars with an 1800cc or 2300cc engine. The LT was able to win several touring accolades against others with 15 year old engine technology. It would be silly for BMW to spend upwards of $100M in a currently cashflow negative business unit to develop a new platform for a single model, especially after all the investment in the slant4 platform.


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post #26 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 8:09 pm
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I would still love to see a boxer 4. Just a tad longer than the current design and 2x1200cc 2x100HP (as it currently has in the RT) would certainly make a NICE bike.

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post #27 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 9:02 pm
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The current slant4 engine can easily be be modified by slapping another four cylinders on it.
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post #28 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 9:07 pm
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Fixed it for you!
Would that make it a 110 degree V-8?


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post #29 of 29 Old Jan 6th, 2007, 9:19 pm
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Would that make it a 110 degree Vroom-8?
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