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post #1 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 1:12 pm Thread Starter
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Won't Start after clutch replacement

After main seal and tranny seal replacements I have what I believe all the parts back on that will allow me a test of the clutch and tranny before putting all the drive shaft etc. back together. I just dont want to put it ALL back and find out I missed something and have to pull it all off again. Got the tranny back on, stand assembly back on and switches mounted, fuel rail, airbox and gas tank on, and battery connected as well as to the starter and alternator. Reverse knob is straight up (or fully counter clockwise). I turn the key where the instrument panel looks normal, kill switch centered, center stand down, side stand up, tranny in neutral (validated by display on inst. panel and the trans output shaft rotates freely), press the button and HID headlights dim and no starter sound.

The battery has been fine all season as I start the bike about every two weeks and let it run for 15 minutes if I cant ride it at the time. I do not suspect the battery. I DO suspect that I may not have the starter/alternator wired up correctly but thats pretty slim because the wires would have only connected one way due to length limitations of the wires. Just in case, the long black wire to the deepest connection on the starter, brown wire on the frame ground on the starter, the black wire bundle with the blue wire off of it is on the alternator.

I am going to see if I can test the side stand switch and reverse switch for continuity.

The bike ran great prior to the tear down and clutch replacement. I think my frustration level is clouding my ability to determine where to go from here. I'm open to any steps from this point.

Picture shows starter wires and alternator at the bottom.
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post #2 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 2:33 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by wipatters View Post
After main seal and tranny seal replacements I have what I believe all the parts back on that will allow me a test of the clutch and tranny before putting all the drive shaft etc. back together. I just dont want to put it ALL back and find out I missed something and have to pull it all off again. Got the tranny back on, stand assembly back on and switches mounted, fuel rail, airbox and gas tank on, and battery connected as well as to the starter and alternator. Reverse knob is straight up (or fully counter clockwise). I turn the key where the instrument panel looks normal, kill switch centered, center stand down, side stand up, tranny in neutral (validated by display on inst. panel and the trans output shaft rotates freely), press the button and HID headlights dim and no starter sound.

The battery has been fine all season as I start the bike about every two weeks and let it run for 15 minutes if I cant ride it at the time. I do not suspect the battery. I DO suspect that I may not have the starter/alternator wired up correctly but thats pretty slim because the wires would have only connected one way due to length limitations of the wires. Just in case, the long black wire to the deepest connection on the starter, brown wire on the frame ground on the starter, the black wire bundle with the blue wire off of it is on the alternator.

I am going to see if I can test the side stand switch and reverse switch for continuity.

The bike ran great prior to the tear down and clutch replacement. I think my frustration level is clouding my ability to determine where to go from here. I'm open to any steps from this point.

Picture shows starter wires and alternator at the bottom.
STOP!!!


This sounds very familiar to a recent thread. DO NOT under any circumstances hold down the start button or you may melt your wiring harness.

First, verify your wiring according to the attached drawing. If you have one connected wrong, all you may be doing by pressing the start button is shorting the battery.

Second, once you are sure you have the wires correct, what year is it as 02 and newer probably have the upgraded starter relay and a low battery will be prevented from starting the bike to keep the relay from engaging.

If you can. attach pictures of what wires you have connected to the two tie points behind the battery. It is not difficult to get one wrong.
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post #3 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 3:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

I jumped the battery and got the same result. I did notice that my aux lighting goes out for a bit then comes back on after letting up on the start button. Possibly that relay is causing a short? I'll pull the relay and see if things change. Then I'll follow your diagram.

Bill

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post #4 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 4:02 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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Originally Posted by wipatters View Post
I jumped the battery and got the same result. I did notice that my aux lighting goes out for a bit then comes back on after letting up on the start button. Possibly that relay is causing a short? I'll pull the relay and see if things change. Then I'll follow your diagram.
Follow the diagram first. The last one who crossed a wire after the clutch repair fried his harness.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #5 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 4:03 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

The aux relay is fine. I traced the wires on the diagram that Gordon provided and all looks good. Since things are acting like a short when I press the start button, I think I need to remove the shift linkage and reverse linkage and trace back the wires on those 2 switches to see if they are pinched by any grounded metal since those two switches come into play with the starting process. I'll let you know how that turns out.

Any other ideas are more than welcomed. Thanks.

Bill

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post #6 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:14 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

That starter wire (black) you show in the picture, where does the other end go? It should be on the starter tie point behind the battery on the shifter side. Some think it is a ground wire because it is black it is actually the hot to the starter.
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post #7 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:18 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

I took off the reverse switch and the sidestand switch, all wires looked good. Once, for a split second when pressing the start button I got a short starter whirr so my thinking was that maybe the battery just didnt have enough kick in it. I had the battery tested and its stronger than rated. It's less than 2 years old and lives on a Battery Tender when its not out riding.

My next thought is that maybe I need to pull the transmission off, remove the starter and bench test it.

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post #8 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

John, that black starter wire DOES go back to the starter tie point. I used Gordons diagram to validate all of that.

Bill

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post #9 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:23 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

OK. How many miles on the bike? I figured it was OK since you said the lights went out when you pressed the button, if the starter was not hooked up right that would not happen. Can you measure the battery voltage? If so put the meter on it and get a reading then press the starter button and see what it does.

If no meter then you can test the starter directly. Just remove the black wire from the starter tie point and hold it onto the battery + terminal. If the starter is OK it will spin even if the battery were weak.

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post #10 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:41 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

It could be the starter. Here is one thing you can try. With the key off and on the CS, put it in reverse and turn the rear wheel with your foot. It will take some effort but that will rotate the starter. Then take it out of reverse and see if it will crank. If it does, you may have a large amount of debris floating inside the starter. I did a clutch and starter for a friend with an LT and his starter had so much debris in it, it would not start the bike. A starter that is not turning is close to a dead short.
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post #11 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:44 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

60k miles. battery reads 12.75 with key off, 12.50 with key on and starter button pressed

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post #12 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Gordon, if the rear wheel, final drive, drive shaft, were on I could do that. right now the powertrain stops at the transmission output shaft. But yeah, on cars I've had starters that would act like this. Its just a strange coincidence that it happened with the clutch, and seals, project.

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post #13 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:48 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Great idea on the starter test John. I'm going to go remove the black wire from the starter tie point right now and tap it to the battery to see what kind of results I get.

Bill

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post #14 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 5:49 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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Originally Posted by wipatters View Post
Gordon, if the rear wheel, final drive, drive shaft, were on I could do that. right now the powertrain stops at the transmission output shaft. But yeah, on cars I've had starters that would act like this. Its just a strange coincidence that it happened with the clutch, and seals, project.
OK, pop the drive shaft on and stick a screw driver through the U joint to turn it, then pop it back off You may be able to do it without locking the retention spring clip. You will hear the starter spin some. Forgot you didn't have the back end assembled yet.

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post #15 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 6:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

removed the black wire from the starter tie point and touched it to the battery positive and got no reaction - key on or off. Testing continuity on the black wire to ground and got 0 ohms.

Soooo, bad starter?

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post #16 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 6:32 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

You guys are such great resources. Testing the starter that way and using the screwdriver to turn the engine... I never would have considered those.

With the starter test of black wire to battery + being open to ground tells me its the starter. I would have expected a certain amount of resistance otherwise.

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post #17 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 7:20 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Just because you are reading zero ohms does not mean the starter is toast. There are three brushes in there and if any one of them is not making good contact you can prevent it from spinning.

Worst case is you pull the transmission back off and open up the starter. Better to do it now that it is at the point of minimal removal of stuff. Then maybe a cleaning will restore function. You can check the starter off bike with a set of jumper cables easily to confirm it is working after the cleaning. There are new and refurbished units available from Euro Moto Electrics.

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post #18 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 9:21 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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removed the black wire from the starter tie point and touched it to the battery positive and got no reaction - key on or off. Testing continuity on the black wire to ground and got 0 ohms.

Soooo, bad starter?
Something isn't right here. Zero Ohms is a dead short. If that is the case, you should get a huge spark when you touch the black wire directly to the positive battery terminal.

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post #19 of 30 Old Apr 14th, 2018, 10:39 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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You guys are such great resources. Testing the starter that way and using the screwdriver to turn the engine... I never would have considered those.

With the starter test of black wire to battery + being open to ground tells me its the starter. I would have expected a certain amount of resistance otherwise.
Black wire to positive post would measure open as the only connection at that point would be through the brushes to ground so you need to measure black wire to negative post to measure continuity through the starter. It should measure very low ohms and if you meter isn't really good, it may not be able to measure that low with any accuracy but it will measure something close to a short circuit. You should be able to measure voltage black to positive post indicating a connection of at least some type.

Turning the engine is not what I had in mind. Placing the trans selector in reverse ( trans in neutral) will not turn the engine but will turn the starter which is what I wanted in hopes to clear any crap that might have found its way under the brushes when flipping it around off the bike when doing seals. I left mine connected the whole time. Wish I had pulled it apart and examined it.

Not quite sure where you are and as Voyager mentioned, 0 ohms is not an open circuit but a short and you also mention an open circuit Not sure of your terminology pertaining to what measurements you made.

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post #20 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 12:53 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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Something isn't right here. Zero Ohms is a dead short. If that is the case, you should get a huge spark when you touch the black wire directly to the positive battery terminal.
Depends on what scale you are measuring it at. 200K ohm scale on the meter will show zero ohms for a 20 ohm load.

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post #21 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 5:05 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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Depends on what scale you are measuring it at. 200K ohm scale on the meter will show zero ohms for a 20 ohm load.
A circuit with zero ohms resistance is a dead short; with the circuit at superconductivity temperatures to be precise.

Whether the measuring instrument is used correctly is a separate question.

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post #22 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 7:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

I just used my auto range digital multimeter. The reading from the positive post on the starter to the negative post on the starter = 2.0 Ohms

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post #23 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 7:59 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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I just used my auto range digital multimeter. The reading from the positive post on the starter to the negative post on the starter = 2.0 Ohms
2 ohms may be slightly high but depending on the meter, possibly within the range of error. I went and did mine and came up with 0.7 ohms.

Were you able to successfully turn the starter with the drive shaft, screw driver and trans in reverse?

Gordon
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post #24 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 8:21 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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I just used my auto range digital multimeter. The reading from the positive post on the starter to the negative post on the starter = 2.0 Ohms
That seems rather high. Given that battery voltage generally drops to around 10 volts during cranking, this would give only 5 amps of current at the time the starter relay closes. That is about 1/10 what I would expect for a starter of this size. I would have expected a static resistance of 0.2 ohms or less. Could be there is some debris on the contact surfaces of the brushes or maybe a loose connection somewhere in the circuit.

Might be good to spin the starter per Gordon's suggestion and check all connections for tightness and then check the resistance again.

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post #25 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 8:39 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

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That seems rather high. Given that battery voltage generally drops to around 10 volts during cranking, this would give only 5 amps of current at the time the starter relay closes. That is about 1/10 what I would expect for a starter of this size. I would have expected a static resistance of 0.2 ohms or less. Could be there is some debris on the contact surfaces of the brushes or maybe a loose connection somewhere in the circuit.

Might be good to spin the starter per Gordon's suggestion and check all connections for tightness and then check the resistance again.
My meter isn't the greatest so I went and manually set it to the lowest scale and shorted the leads. Came up with .6 so not acurate enough or calibrated to measure but accounting for the margin of that error, it would be around .1 ohms and 12V would push 120A across that resistance. Check the shorted value with your leads to see what it measures a dead short as. Then you may be able to get a closer number to work with. If it is still 2 ohms, as Matt said, too high to pull enough current to turn the starter.

Gordon
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1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #26 of 30 Old Apr 15th, 2018, 9:26 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

I didnt get the chance to try Gordons drive shaft/screwdriver suggestion yet - Monday night I will give it a go and let you know.

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post #27 of 30 Old Apr 27th, 2018, 7:42 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Tried Gordon's screwdriver suggestion and was afraid I'd find a way to screw up the U-joint so I gave up on that. I then pulled all the transmission attachments and transmission off the bike. Pulled off the starter and took it to the workbench where I proceeded to take it apart. It had a little bit of crud in it but not bad. The brushes looked surprisingly new. After looking at some fiche and internet pictures, I realized that the nut that holds down the positive post is supposed to stay there and the reason I had an extra nut was it was meant to go on top of the black wire that sits on top of the nut holding the post in.

When I first reconnected the starter I removed that nut and I remembered that the positive terminal and plastic around it had moved around on me. I'm thinking I didn't have it in the right position when the bike wouldn't start. So it was disconnected or shorted or just didn't want to cooperate.

So, I put the starter back together, which was fun fighting the magnets and brushes. Bench tested it and it ran great. Put it on the transmission, tested it again, and it ran great. Even reverse was good. Put it all back together on the bike and it works like a charm!

One for the books...keep that positive terminal tight and put the black wire then another nut on top.

Thanks for all your help guys!
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post #28 of 30 Old Apr 28th, 2018, 3:40 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Glad you got it all figured out. Most of us just leave the wire ON the starter and remove the other end from the tie point, eliminates the confusion if it is apart for a while. Enjoy the ride!

Now I feel bad I went back and looked at your first picture and my usual "eagle eye" did not see the missing nut. it is really obvious now that I look at it.
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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #29 of 30 Old Apr 29th, 2018, 11:12 am Thread Starter
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Location: Columbus, OH, USA
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Disconnecting from the tie point would have been a better choice had I been aware of the tie points.

No worries about not catching that extra nut. I can't tell you how many times I looked at that extra nut sitting in the bin that I labeled "starter", wondering why I had an extra nut lol.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm on to replacing the throttle cables. It appears the return (close) cable snapped off long ago about 1/4" from the barrel on the grip. I just got the cables in yesterday, re-reading my Clymer right now. I'll read up on what guys have run into on the forum then I'll tackle that job.
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Bill

'02 K1200LTC Pacific Blue

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Yeah, I know, I need to get out more!
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post #30 of 30 Old Apr 29th, 2018, 1:51 pm
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Re: Won't Start after clutch replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by wipatters View Post
Disconnecting from the tie point would have been a better choice had I been aware of the tie points.

No worries about not catching that extra nut. I can't tell you how many times I looked at that extra nut sitting in the bin that I labeled "starter", wondering why I had an extra nut lol.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm on to replacing the throttle cables. It appears the return (close) cable snapped off long ago about 1/4" from the barrel on the grip. I just got the cables in yesterday, re-reading my Clymer right now. I'll read up on what guys have run into on the forum then I'll tackle that job.
I did my clutch "by the book" and did not take many of the oft mentioned short cuts. I even removed the dreaded gear position switch. The main reason wasn't that I didn't think the shortcuts might be good ideas, I just wanted to check things off against the well organized check list format of the BMW RepROM. I also took tons of pictures of almost everything.

The methodical approach using the BMW checklist as the master reference with the Clymer manual and this forum as cross references worked like magic. The only part I failed to get a good picture of was the wire routing around the reverser (or was it gear shift) bracket. Things didn't look right and I had to do some rework there using a photo from either here or the RepROM.

Other than that, all connections went back correctly and the LT lit up and fired up almost instantly. What a huge relief. I fully expected to miss something and spend a couple hours (or worse) troubleshooting given the complexity of this beast.

And even though it takes more time, I generally put all nuts and bolts loosely back where they came from. So if a ring terminal is removed from a component, the nut goes back on the stud. I am not a fan of storing fasteners in a can or even things like egg cartons. I clean my floor well and put all loose fasteners (fairing screws in particular) on the floor under the fairing panel and close to the location they came from. Same for all other components. I never lose fasteners this way nor end up with "spares" when the job is done. The only exception was when the cat got in the garage one night and decided to play hockey. I eventually found all the screws, but it did take a while.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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