Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 12:54 am Thread Starter
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Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

So Iím nearing the end of my first K1200Lt clutch journey and what a process it has been.
After a number of hiccups I finally put fuel in the tank and push the go button and the bike starts up and then struggles to idle cleanly. ~850
I can smell that it is running rich and (just off of idle) as I bring up the RPMs doesnít run clean, but as the RPMs build it runs under what I would expect would be close to full power.

$h!T one more problem on a long rebuild. For certain this bike is unlike any other bike I have worked on.

So next some research on this website and I come up with a few things.

-Kevin12T had the exact same problem and after many trials and tribulations returned his settings back to stock (I have not changed mine at all yet) and replaced his air filter and all was good.
I replaced my air filter with a brand new K&N which may be to restrictive???

-My other thought may be that the oxygen sensor may be out because I cleaned it by spraying brake cleaner before re installing it.

-I also looked into the gas tank (as I replaced the in line fuel line and filter) to see if the fuel was moving from a fuel line leak in the tank as was suggested by another post and the tank with only a half gallon in it was just vibrating the gas so I donít think that is the problem.

Aside from dropping the rear of the motor down without releasing the tension on the air filter couplings everything on the install went mostly as expected (with the exception of a wiring mishap).

Iím going to start with the K&N as I have a clean BMW filter available to install. Just didnít want to mess with it for another 25K

Other than that any thoughts?
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post #2 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 1:47 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Have you tried the TPS reset?

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...ion-reset.html

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post #3 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 1:51 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
So I’m nearing the end of my first K1200Lt clutch journey and what a process it has been.
After a number of hiccups I finally put fuel in the tank and push the go button and the bike starts up and then struggles to idle cleanly. ~850
I can smell that it is running rich and (just off of idle) as I bring up the RPMs doesn’t run clean, but as the RPMs build it runs under what I would expect would be close to full power.

$h!T one more problem on a long rebuild. For certain this bike is unlike any other bike I have worked on.

So next some research on this website and I come up with a few things.

-Kevin12T had the exact same problem and after many trials and tribulations returned his settings back to stock (I have not changed mine at all yet) and replaced his air filter and all was good.
I replaced my air filter with a brand new K&N which may be to restrictive???

-My other thought may be that the oxygen sensor may be out because I cleaned it by spraying brake cleaner before re installing it.

-I also looked into the gas tank (as I replaced the in line fuel line and filter) to see if the fuel was moving from a fuel line leak in the tank as was suggested by another post and the tank with only a half gallon in it was just vibrating the gas so I don’t think that is the problem.

Aside from dropping the rear of the motor down without releasing the tension on the air filter couplings everything on the install went mostly as expected (with the exception of a wiring mishap).

I’m going to start with the K&N as I have a clean BMW filter available to install. Just didn’t want to mess with it for another 25K

Other than that any thoughts?
Replacing the K&N with a paper filter is a good move but it won't fix this issue. A couple things to check and also a question or two.

1. are the 4 hoses all connected to the throttle body and not cracked:

2. Did you plug in the air temp sensor on the front left side of the air box?
Check to make sure it is plugged in

3. do the fans come on with the key on and motor not running?
If the fans come on, the engine temp sensor is bad/damaged or unplugged. It is on the back side of the left head behind the coil. You can see the plug in the picture where it can be tested.
If you lowered the engine without unplugging it, it will stretch the cable. a $120 mistake I will only made once.

4. Does it sound like it is missing?
The purge valve on the left side of the engine in front of the TVA uses the same plug as the injectors. Wires are green though. At least one person here has swapped an injector with the purge valve plug and it didn't run well.

You may need to find a GS911 to plug in and get some real time data or read error codes.
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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:03 am.
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post #4 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 6:51 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
So Iím nearing the end of my first K1200Lt clutch journey and what a process it has been.
After a number of hiccups I finally put fuel in the tank and push the go button and the bike starts up and then struggles to idle cleanly. ~850
I can smell that it is running rich and (just off of idle) as I bring up the RPMs doesnít run clean, but as the RPMs build it runs under what I would expect would be close to full power.

$h!T one more problem on a long rebuild. For certain this bike is unlike any other bike I have worked on.

So next some research on this website and I come up with a few things.

-Kevin12T had the exact same problem and after many trials and tribulations returned his settings back to stock (I have not changed mine at all yet) and replaced his air filter and all was good.
I replaced my air filter with a brand new K&N which may be to restrictive???

-My other thought may be that the oxygen sensor may be out because I cleaned it by spraying brake cleaner before re installing it.

-I also looked into the gas tank (as I replaced the in line fuel line and filter) to see if the fuel was moving from a fuel line leak in the tank as was suggested by another post and the tank with only a half gallon in it was just vibrating the gas so I donít think that is the problem.

Aside from dropping the rear of the motor down without releasing the tension on the air filter couplings everything on the install went mostly as expected (with the exception of a wiring mishap).

Iím going to start with the K&N as I have a clean BMW filter available to install. Just didnít want to mess with it for another 25K

Other than that any thoughts?
I agree with Gordon's checks and recommendations.

K&N filters are not a good choice for a street bike. Personally, I would not use them even for off-road racing, but the shorter engine life isn't a big issue in a race vehicle.

I have always read that attempting to clean an oxygen sensor is generally a bad idea. Many different chemicals can contaminate the ceramic element inside the protective metal shield. Most sensor makers even caution against fuel additives as they can kill the sensor.

It may be that you just need some riding time for the ECU to relearn the fuel trim and TPS calibration. However, if you stay rich much above idle and this persists more than three rides, then I would replace the oxygen sensor. And if you oiled the K&N too heavily, that can wreak havoc with the oxygen sensor.
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post #5 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 7:04 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

I would do as Voyager said, replace the oxygen sensor. When you said you cleaned the oxygen sensor with brake fluid, that thought came to my mind instantly. I do not think brake fluid should be used on the oxygen sensor as it could ruin it.

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post #6 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 12:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Yes forgot to add that I did the reset.
No change
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post #7 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 12:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Replacing the K&N with a paper filter is a good move but it won't fix this issue. A couple things to check and also a question or two.

1. are the 4 hoses all connected to the throttle body and not cracked:

2. Did you plug in the air temp sensor on the front left side of the air box?
Check to make sure it is plugged in

3. do the fans come on with the key on and motor not running?
If the fans come on, the engine temp sensor is bad/damaged or unplugged. It is on the back side of the left head behind the coil. You can see the plug in the picture where it can be tested.
If you lowered the engine without unplugging it, it will stretch the cable. a $120 mistake I will only made once.

4. Does it sound like it is missing?
The purge valve on the left side of the engine in front of the TVA uses the same plug as the injectors. Wires are green though. At least one person here has swapped an injector with the purge valve plug and it didn't run well.

You may need to find a GS911 to plug in and get some real time data or read error codes.
1 I will check tonight, but I think everything is connected
2 It is plugged in but I will double check tonight
3 The fans do not come on
4 It only struggles down low, it revs nicely above 2k I will check the plug wires tonight
Thanks for all the great suggestions
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post #8 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 12:41 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
1 I will check tonight, but I think everything is connected
2 It is plugged in but I will double check tonight
3 The fans do not come on
4 It only struggles down low, it revs nicely above 2k I will check the plug wires tonight
Thanks for all the great suggestions
Before I rebuilt my oil soaked clutch, my LT would often (half the time or more) hesitate when coming off the line. I thought it was due to having to run E10 as the onset was near the time that my last local station dropped real gas.

After my clutch repair and several other things, the hesitation and sag on starting out was gone. Since I did several things that may have helped, I can't be sure what the real culprit was, but my money is on the oxygen sensor. Here are the things I did in what I think is decreasing order of likelihood of being the cure. Others may order things differently.

1. Replaced oxygen semsor with a plug compatible Bosch model bought from Amazon. I don't recall the number now, but can look it up if you need it.
2. Bypassed the pulse valve. I had removed the charcoal canister many years earlier and plugged the line, but if the line had a leak somewhere, the pulse valve could inject air into the intake. I bypassed the valve per instructions from Sailor to mimic the non-US bikes that lacked that nonsense.
3. Thoroughly cleaned the throttle bodies. They were dirty, but I doubt bad enough to cause my hesitation/sag coming off the line.
4. Replaced a badly cracked and leaking crankcase ventilation system. Since oil was leaking out, air was likely leaking in.

Of all these, I put 80% likelihood on the oxygen sensor as the culprit. Definitely worth $100 to find out (I think I paid $86 for mine two years ago). Riding my LT was not fun with the hesitation problem and a few times I didn't get the clutch in quickly enough to prevent a stall. I was nearly rear-ended a couple times. It is so much nicer when it pulls strongly away as the clutch is engaged.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #9 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 2:10 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
Yes forgot to add that I did the reset.
No change
Hey Tom, if you replace the O2 sensor, DON'T use the one designated for the K12 from BMW ($$$ - I know, shocker). There is a Bosch replacement you can get at most auto parts stores. The part number is Bosch 15738 (at least it was years ago for me). Exact same connector, just a longer wire.

Brian
CCR: 2008, Midway; 2011, Boise; 2012, Duluth; 2014, Chattanooga. MOA: Billings, 2015; SLC, 2017
CCR-R: 2018, Russellville
'13 K1600 GTL-P - "Eva"
Sold but "beloved" ride: K12 LT - "Pepe"
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Last edited by hallzee; Mar 9th, 2018 at 2:17 pm.
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post #10 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 2:32 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Before I rebuilt my oil soaked clutch, my LT would often (half the time or more) hesitate when coming off the line. I thought it was due to having to run E10 as the onset was near the time that my last local station dropped real gas.

After my clutch repair and several other things, the hesitation and sag on starting out was gone. Since I did several things that may have helped, I can't be sure what the real culprit was, but my money is on the oxygen sensor. Here are the things I did in what I think is decreasing order of likelihood of being the cure. Others may order things differently.

1. Replaced oxygen semsor with a plug compatible Bosch model bought from Amazon. I don't recall the number now, but can look it up if you need it.
2. Bypassed the pulse valve. I had removed the charcoal canister many years earlier and plugged the line, but if the line had a leak somewhere, the pulse valve could inject air into the intake. I bypassed the valve per instructions from Sailor to mimic the non-US bikes that lacked that nonsense.
3. Thoroughly cleaned the throttle bodies. They were dirty, but I doubt bad enough to cause my hesitation/sag coming off the line.
4. Replaced a badly cracked and leaking crankcase ventilation system. Since oil was leaking out, air was likely leaking in.

Of all these, I put 80% likelihood on the oxygen sensor as the culprit. Definitely worth $100 to find out (I think I paid $86 for mine two years ago). Riding my LT was not fun with the hesitation problem and a few times I didn't get the clutch in quickly enough to prevent a stall. I was nearly rear-ended a couple times. It is so much nicer when it pulls strongly away as the clutch is engaged.
2. Bypassed the pulse valve This is intriguing. I performed a can ectomy, perhaps I did not block off the line well enough?
I'll have to look at it. Seems like the most likely culprit but I will check the others as well.
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post #11 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 3:22 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

"Not" working from home today so I had to get out there and see if the can ectomy hose was leaking. And it's tight with a bolt and ziptie in the end.

So while I was at it I looked at the other recommendations
Coolk1200:
1 Yes connected and in good shape
2 Yes plugged in
3 No No fans going
4 Not really missing, just struggling

Voyager:
1 Am leaning towards that too. Damn just trying to clean things up
2 Had to check but everything looks good. big bolt with ziptie Really hoping that was it.
3 I cleaned the throttle bodies before reassembling. They were in pretty good shape though. The bike only has 25K
4 I'll have to check and see where they are located, but this bike did a lot more resting then riding my feeling is that the hoses should be ok
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post #12 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 3:24 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

4 Not really missing, just struggling
And I checked the wires on the injectors and all four are the same color.
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post #13 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 3:45 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Double check that there is no interference on the throttle bodies due to clamp placement. If you had them off to clean make sure ALL return springs are hooked up and movement is free. I had one that ran like crap and finally traced it to one of the springs had popped off the butterfly and would not allow the ECU and TPS to read the expected value at closed throttle. Reinstalled the end of the spring and she purred like a kitten.
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post #14 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 3:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

I've ordered a new O2 sensor so we'll see how it runs in two days when it arrives.
$85
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post #15 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 4:04 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

It is possible that is your problem but you can actually start a cold LT with the O2 sensor unplugged and it will idle fine.
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John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #16 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 4:32 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by trussell View Post
I've ordered a new O2 sensor so we'll see how it runs in two days when it arrives.
$85
Tom, you're a wealthy guy. At that price, you should have ordered 2!!

Brian
CCR: 2008, Midway; 2011, Boise; 2012, Duluth; 2014, Chattanooga. MOA: Billings, 2015; SLC, 2017
CCR-R: 2018, Russellville
'13 K1600 GTL-P - "Eva"
Sold but "beloved" ride: K12 LT - "Pepe"
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post #17 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 5:26 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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I've ordered a new O2 sensor so we'll see how it runs in two days when it arrives.
$85
The 13475 I hope. $76 now at Amazon.

The fun part can be removing the old one. I heated my pipe up with a heat gun and then soaked it well with WD-40. Let it soak overnight then heated it again, applied more WD and hit it with the 1/2" breaker bar. Mine came right out with just a couple of palm whacks to the breaker bar. I was lucky.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #18 of 58 Old Mar 9th, 2018, 5:37 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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It is possible that is your problem but you can actually start a cold LT with the O2 sensor unplugged and it will idle fine.
My LT idled pretty well after I rode a hundred miles or so to let the ECU get its bearings. The TPS reset never seems to do squat for my LT. It always takes a few rides to idle well after the battery is unhooked for any length of time.

My hesitation/sag was worse when the bike was up to temp and worse yet in hot weather. The strange thing is mine was random. That is why I suspected the pulse valve more so than the oxygen sensor as my car experience is that the latter dies and stays dead rather then becoming intermittent. I don't know the pulse valve algorithm, but expect it operates only periodically. However, I just can't believe the pulse valve could admit enough air to cause the issue I was seeing.

All I know for sure is that the problem disappeared somewhere along my clutch repair journey. And for that I am grateful!

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #19 of 58 Old Mar 10th, 2018, 2:35 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Tom, you're a wealthy guy. At that price, you should have ordered 2!!
Guilty as charged, that's why I like to invest all of my big bucks in an 18 year old bike. Because as an investor I can tell you the Return On Investment is going to be spectacular.
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post #20 of 58 Old Mar 10th, 2018, 3:04 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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The 13475 I hope. $76 now at Amazon.

The fun part can be removing the old one. I heated my pipe up with a heat gun and then soaked it well with WD-40. Let it soak overnight then heated it again, applied more WD and hit it with the 1/2" breaker bar. Mine came right out with just a couple of palm whacks to the breaker bar. I was lucky.
76 plus tax. I took the old one out, cleaned it lubed it with copper and reinstalled it so putting a new one in should go smoothly. But I'm always optimistic, sometimes to a fault apparently
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post #21 of 58 Old Mar 10th, 2018, 3:13 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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My LT idled pretty well after I rode a hundred miles or so to let the ECU get its bearings. The TPS reset never seems to do squat for my LT. It always takes a few rides to idle well after the battery is unhooked for any length of time.

My hesitation/sag was worse when the bike was up to temp and worse yet in hot weather. The strange thing is mine was random. That is why I suspected the pulse valve more so than the oxygen sensor as my car experience is that the latter dies and stays dead rather then becoming intermittent. I don't know the pulse valve algorithm, but expect it operates only periodically. However, I just can't believe the pulse valve could admit enough air to cause the issue I was seeing.

All I know for sure is that the problem disappeared somewhere along my clutch repair journey. And for that I am grateful!
Well at least I'm hoping that I'll make my money back from improved gas mileage / responsiveness of my new O2 sensor

I had an old Buick that when it started running rough I would take it out and give it a good thrashing / max rpm / drifting ect. And then it would settle down and ride smooth. So perhaps after the 02 I'll just put the plastics on and take it for a rip and see if it settles down
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post #22 of 58 Old Mar 10th, 2018, 8:49 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
So Iím nearing the end of my first K1200Lt clutch journey and what a process it has been.
After a number of hiccups I finally put fuel in the tank and push the go button and the bike starts up and then struggles to idle cleanly. ~850
I can smell that it is running rich and (just off of idle) as I bring up the RPMs doesnít run clean, but as the RPMs build it runs under what I would expect would be close to full power.

$h!T one more problem on a long rebuild. For certain this bike is unlike any other bike I have worked on.

So next some research on this website and I come up with a few things.

-Kevin12T had the exact same problem and after many trials and tribulations returned his settings back to stock (I have not changed mine at all yet) and replaced his air filter and all was good.
I replaced my air filter with a brand new K&N which may be to restrictive???

-My other thought may be that the oxygen sensor may be out because I cleaned it by spraying brake cleaner before re installing it.

-I also looked into the gas tank (as I replaced the in line fuel line and filter) to see if the fuel was moving from a fuel line leak in the tank as was suggested by another post and the tank with only a half gallon in it was just vibrating the gas so I donít think that is the problem.

Aside from dropping the rear of the motor down without releasing the tension on the air filter couplings everything on the install went mostly as expected (with the exception of a wiring mishap).

Iím going to start with the K&N as I have a clean BMW filter available to install. Just didnít want to mess with it for another 25K

Other than that any thoughts?

Don;t have any idea why so many are against K&N air filters - been using them for over 40 ys and never a issue - if you use the fight oil and clean regularly - also after your big job i will tell you to check all your rubber hoses to the motor - will bet ya a clamp is loose or a hose is not on or cross plugged - chances of our O2 failing etc are slim to none if it ran okay before you stripped her iinto pieces = go back and check all you connections - if you don't find anything - in a WELL VENTED AREA start the bike andus a proapne torch on low no flame of course ) and wave it around the intake hoses and the injectors and listen for a increase in idle spped when you hear it pick up (rpm) you will be in the area of the air leak - not it will not blow up or catch fire but have the proper precautions close by - i've been using this for 50 yr on airplanes cars etc - anything that uses fuel -
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post #23 of 58 Old Mar 10th, 2018, 9:09 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by Tricky_dickey View Post
Don;t have any idea why so many are against K&N air filters - been using them for over 40 ys and never a issue - if you use the fight oil and clean regularly - also after your big job i will tell you to check all your rubber hoses to the motor - will bet ya a clamp is loose or a hose is not on or cross plugged - chances of our O2 failing etc are slim to none if it ran okay before you stripped her iinto pieces = go back and check all you connections - if you don't find anything - in a WELL VENTED AREA start the bike andus a proapne torch on low no flame of course ) and wave it around the intake hoses and the injectors and listen for a increase in idle spped when you hear it pick up (rpm) you will be in the area of the air leak - not it will not blow up or catch fire but have the proper precautions close by - i've been using this for 50 yr on airplanes cars etc - anything that uses fuel -
I can't speak for others, but I have two primary reasons:

1. I have seen several tests that show paper element filters are much better at filtering than are K&N oiled foam. Since catching dirt is the reason we use filters, I want to catch the most dirt. Since I'm not racing my street vehicles, a slight reduction in flow resistance is simply not significant.

2. They are messy to clean and oil. My lawnmower reminds me of this every year. Much easier to simply replace a paper element every 3-4 years.

My question is: Why do people use them on street vehicles?
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post #24 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 12:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky_dickey View Post
Don;t have any idea why so many are against K&N air filters - been using them for over 40 ys and never a issue - if you use the fight oil and clean regularly - also after your big job i will tell you to check all your rubber hoses to the motor - will bet ya a clamp is loose or a hose is not on or cross plugged - chances of our O2 failing etc are slim to none if it ran okay before you stripped her iinto pieces = go back and check all you connections - if you don't find anything - in a WELL VENTED AREA start the bike andus a proapne torch on low no flame of course ) and wave it around the intake hoses and the injectors and listen for a increase in idle spped when you hear it pick up (rpm) you will be in the area of the air leak - not it will not blow up or catch fire but have the proper precautions close by - i've been using this for 50 yr on airplanes cars etc - anything that uses fuel -
I am familiar with this old school approach and I will probably give it a try but this bike with it's large tank that wraps around the whole engine makes it a bit difficult to run the motor while working on the engine. But you make a great point and thanks for the reminder. Sometimes it just takes someone to give you a nudge to remind you of something that you haven't tried. Which is why these forums work so great.
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post #25 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 1:12 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I can't speak for others, but I have two primary reasons:

1. I have seen several tests that show paper element filters are much better at filtering than are K&N oiled foam. Since catching dirt is the reason we use filters, I want to catch the most dirt. Since I'm not racing my street vehicles, a slight reduction in flow resistance is simply not significant.

2. They are messy to clean and oil. My lawnmower reminds me of this every year. Much easier to simply replace a paper element every 3-4 years.

My question is: Why do people use them on street vehicles?
I'm not a die hard fan in either direction and can only offer you my thoughts on my process.
1 this is my first K&N and I am not for or against
2 Air filters for this bike are somewhat expensive
3 Getting to the air filter is somewhat of a pain in the A$$
4 And if I can open this bike up just once every 25k for service instead of every ??? for an air filter then it's a win as far as I am concerned.
5 The complaints that I have read about K&N have been mostly about over oiling. I have been cleaning dirt bike air filters (oil based filters) for quite some time and think I have a good feel for it by now.
6 I WISH this bike was as easy to work on as my lawn mower

Just my .02 on why I chose K&N
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post #26 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 1:19 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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It is possible that is your problem but you can actually start a cold LT with the O2 sensor unplugged and it will idle fine.
Maybe I should just unplug it and see if it idles? Perhaps I damaged it in a strong negative or positive way when I cleaned it forcing it to run to one side or another?

Just spit balling

Last edited by trussell; Mar 11th, 2018 at 1:24 am.
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post #27 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 9:12 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

I have had idle issues with my LT before after disconnecting the battery. (I am assuming that you disconnected the battery to do the clutch replacement.) Even after resetting the throttle position sensor there have been times that the bike still wants to idle too low or too high. I have repeated the throttle position sequence, thinking I may have not done it correctly the first time. Sometimes it would take several tries to get the idle to "take". As it turned out, my problem was the old, stiff OEM throttle cables. They were just sticking or binding enough not to give an accurate WOT and idle positions.

I have recently installed new cables, and now resetting the throttle position became easy and accurate, not to mention making the bike way more fun to ride. This may or may not be related to your idle issue, but I would consider going through the throttle position reset again, then take it for a ride a round the block. Although your idle problem may be more involved, it's also possible it may be that simple.
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post #28 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 10:23 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Miss routing throttle cables can cause issues. The one with the green band needs to be outboard at the clips on the fan shroud.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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post #29 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 11:03 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by trussell View Post
I'm not a die hard fan in either direction and can only offer you my thoughts on my process.
1 this is my first K&N and I am not for or against
2 Air filters for this bike are somewhat expensive
3 Getting to the air filter is somewhat of a pain in the A$$
4 And if I can open this bike up just once every 25k for service instead of every ??? for an air filter then it's a win as far as I am concerned.
5 The complaints that I have read about K&N have been mostly about over oiling. I have been cleaning dirt bike air filters (oil based filters) for quite some time and think I have a good feel for it by now.
6 I WISH this bike was as easy to work on as my lawn mower

Just my .02 on why I chose K&N

K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)

You can go 24K. I am moving to 48K based on filter condition after first two changes at 24K.

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post #30 of 58 Old Mar 11th, 2018, 9:05 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

I use these filters
https://www.beemerboneyard.com/k12rsltmannaf.html

works for me..

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2010 R1200GSA ...1987 Helix...
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post #31 of 58 Old Mar 12th, 2018, 1:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by trussell View Post
Maybe I should just unplug it and see if it idles? Perhaps I damaged it in a strong negative or positive way when I cleaned it forcing it to run to one side or another?

Just spit balling
New O2 Installed. No change yet
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post #32 of 58 Old Mar 12th, 2018, 1:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Miss routing throttle cables can cause issues. The one with the green band needs to be outboard at the clips on the fan shroud.
Green throttle cable is outboard. There is some slop in it though. I know this would not be a problem in most motorcycles. But that wouldn't make it run ritch and not idle would it?
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post #33 of 58 Old Mar 12th, 2018, 5:42 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Thought I would go back to post #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
Aside from dropping the rear of the motor down without releasing the tension on the air filter couplings everything on the install went mostly as expected (with the exception of a wiring mishap).
What was the wiring mishap? Could be related to the idles issue if it was the TPS connector. A GS-911 would tell you if the TBs are closing fully as it reads the TPS and looks for a specific value at idle and if that is off just a smidgen it will cause all sorts of issues.

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2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

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post #34 of 58 Old Mar 12th, 2018, 6:33 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Thought I would go back to post #1


What was the wiring mishap? Could be related to the idles issue if it was the TPS connector. A GS-911 would tell you if the TBs are closing fully as it reads the TPS and looks for a specific value at idle and if that is off just a smidgen it will cause all sorts of issues.
If the wiring mishap was forgetting to remove the engine temp sensor it would run like crap. I know the fans come on for an open circuit but I don't know about a short.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Ė Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Ė Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #35 of 58 Old Mar 13th, 2018, 7:54 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Thought I would go back to post #1


What was the wiring mishap? Could be related to the idles issue if it was the TPS connector. A GS-911 would tell you if the TBs are closing fully as it reads the TPS and looks for a specific value at idle and if that is off just a smidgen it will cause all sorts of issues.
Finding someone nearby with a GS-911 may save you much time and frustration. May even need to suck it up and pay your nearest dealer for a MoDiTec scan.

I am guessing John is right that it is something simple that was either damaged during disassembly and not detected, or assembled/connected incorrectly or not at all. The LT has many systems and connections, at least a couple of which can easily be connected wrong (fuel pump and fuel injectors). I was greatly relieved when my LT fired right up and everything worked. I fully expected issues after reading others' experiences here. And troubleshooting such things can be maddening.

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post #36 of 58 Old Mar 15th, 2018, 2:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[QUOTE=Voyager;1836521]Finding someone nearby with a GS-911 may save you much time and frustration. May even need to suck it up and pay your nearest dealer for a MoDiTec scan.

Actually Hallzee has offered to stop by with his GS-911 and plug it in.
It will be great to see what it says
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post #37 of 58 Old Mar 15th, 2018, 5:03 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=trussell;1837417]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Finding someone nearby with a GS-911 may save you much time and frustration. May even need to suck it up and pay your nearest dealer for a MoDiTec scan.

Actually Hallzee has offered to stop by with his GS-911 and plug it in.
It will be great to see what it says
Tom, have you checked the resistance of the engine temp sensor yet? I stole a table posted by Sailor in Celsius and converted it to Fahrenheit with the associated resistance values. The connector is on the left side and is the bottom one of the 4 connectors under the small side panel. If you have a fairly decent meter, you can test it and see what it reads with the approximate ambient temp as a guide for what to expect. If it is really far off, that may be your issue. The post from Sailor also indicated that although we do know that the fans come on with infinite resistance ( unplugged) we don't know what a short condition would cause unless he has managed to do that experiment since that post. Here is the table in both formats.

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in celcius) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
8 .......... 4000
10 .......... 3880
14 .......... 3290
20 .......... 2570
25 .......... 2130
30 .......... 1760
35 .......... 1462
45 .......... 1049
55 .......... 727
65 .......... 540
75 .......... 392
85 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
95 .......... 229
105 ..(fans activated temp).. 187

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in Farenheit) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
46.4 .......... 4000
50 .......... 3880
57.2 .......... 3290
68 .......... 2570
77 .......... 2130
86 .......... 1760
95 .......... 1462
113 .......... 1049
131 .......... 727
149 .......... 540
167 .......... 392
185 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
203 .......... 229
221 ..(fans activated temp).. 187

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Ė Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Ė Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #38 of 58 Old Mar 16th, 2018, 2:06 am Thread Starter
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Wink Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1837473]
Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post

Tom, have you checked the resistance of the engine temp sensor yet? I stole a table posted by Sailor in Celsius and converted it to Fahrenheit with the associated resistance values. The connector is on the left side and is the bottom one of the 4 connectors under the small side panel. If you have a fairly decent meter, you can test it and see what it reads with the approximate ambient temp as a guide for what to expect. If it is really far off, that may be your issue. The post from Sailor also indicated that although we do know that the fans come on with infinite resistance ( unplugged) we don't know what a short condition would cause unless he has managed to do that experiment since that post. Here is the table in both formats.

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in celcius) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
8 .......... 4000
10 .......... 3880
14 .......... 3290
20 .......... 2570
25 .......... 2130
30 .......... 1760
35 .......... 1462
45 .......... 1049
55 .......... 727
65 .......... 540
75 .......... 392
85 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
95 .......... 229
105 ..(fans activated temp).. 187

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in Farenheit) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
46.4 .......... 4000
50 .......... 3880
57.2 .......... 3290
68 .......... 2570
77 .......... 2130
86 .......... 1760
95 .......... 1462
113 .......... 1049
131 .......... 727
149 .......... 540
167 .......... 392
185 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
203 .......... 229
221 ..(fans activated temp).. 187
No I haven't gotten that far into it.
Are you saying that if my engine temperature sensor or the fact that I may not have plugged it in it would keep the bike from idling well?
I've fully warmed it up / even gotten it hot as I revved it up trying to blow it out.
I do have a few ohm meters even a digital one but I'm not all that good with the settings or even them, other then resistance truth be told
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post #39 of 58 Old Mar 16th, 2018, 9:21 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=trussell;1837521]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

No I haven't gotten that far into it.
Are you saying that if my engine temperature sensor or the fact that I may not have plugged it in it would keep the bike from idling well?
I've fully warmed it up / even gotten it hot as I revved it up trying to blow it out.
I do have a few ohm meters even a digital one but I'm not all that good with the settings or even them, other then resistance truth be told
If you didn't plug it in, the fans would come on with the key as an open circuit there produces an unknown value for the ECU and it doesn't know how hot or cold the engine is so it turns on the fans. jzeiler uses that to make sure both fans are working before he buttons up the Tupperware.

Not sure we have a readout of what happens if the wires are shorted but the ECU uses that information to adjust the mixture lean or rich based on engine temp. It is a part that does not go bad often but it can be damaged during a clutch job if not unplugged and the engine is lowered. In my case, I was helping on another clutch job and forgot to unplug it. It stretched the wires till they broke and I had an open circuit. Fans came on with the key and it really ran like crap.

The GS911 will give you a readout of what it thinks the engine temp is but with the help of this table created by Sailor, you can get an idea if the sensor is reading correctly by what its resistance is based on the ambient temp of the room if the bike has not been running by just hooking a meter across it while unplugged. Way high or low, shorted or open would indicate a problem and the ECU would be trying to compensate based on what it sees as the temp. I don't know at what resistance value the fans some on when moving to the colder range. Maybe I will hook up a variable resistor and test that one day with something well above the 4000 ohm to see how high it has to go ( colder) before it thinks it is unplugged and the fans come on.

Post a picture of your digital meter. It has an Ohm setting and it may be auto ranging or have switch selectable ranges. My really cheap HF $5 ( free with coupon) meter has switch selections. The 20K ohm scale reads properly around room temp, but may need to be changed to a lower range if the sensor was hot or reading incorrectly. My more expensive digital meter has an auto ranging setting and it will select the best range to view what you are measuring. I did the HF first and the sensor was outside so it is warming up ( moving to a lower resistance) as I did this so the readings are slightly different between the two but in range for between 60 and 70 degrees based on the table. If it showed 8 or 10K ohms, and it was 60 degrees, that would be out of range for being 60 degrees showing something much colder, The table doesn't go that low but you get the idea. If it read very high or very low, it would be making your engine unnecessarily rich or lean for the actual temperature.

The sensor does not need to be removed to measure it, only unplugged and measured at the connector. I just happen to still have the damaged one and can use it to illustrate.
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Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI Ė Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Ė Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #40 of 58 Old Mar 19th, 2018, 2:47 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

So today Hallzee and Hoss were kind enough to stop by with the gs911 to help me do a little trouble shooting
The GS911 said that my TPS was tripping error codes.
Long story short we pulled a bunch of stuff apart, looked in a bunch of nooks and crannies and most things seem to be in the right place.
Hoss pulled the the TPS from it's mounting bracket, gave it a massage, put it back together and now it seems to idle better.
What more could a newb ask for? It's not at 900rpm but we are thinking with a little road time it will settle down and find itself.
I'm going to wrap it back up, take it for a ride and let you know if everything settles down.
But big thanks to those two.
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post #41 of 58 Old Mar 21st, 2018, 1:11 am Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aberdale View Post
I have had idle issues with my LT before after disconnecting the battery. (I am assuming that you disconnected the battery to do the clutch replacement.) Even after resetting the throttle position sensor there have been times that the bike still wants to idle too low or too high. I have repeated the throttle position sequence, thinking I may have not done it correctly the first time. Sometimes it would take several tries to get the idle to "take". As it turned out, my problem was the old, stiff OEM throttle cables. They were just sticking or binding enough not to give an accurate WOT and idle positions.

I have recently installed new cables, and now resetting the throttle position became easy and accurate, not to mention making the bike way more fun to ride. This may or may not be related to your idle issue, but I would consider going through the throttle position reset again, then take it for a ride a round the block. Although your idle problem may be more involved, it's also possible it may be that simple.
Final report ( I hope). The bike was still struggling to idle and as I was putting the plastics back on to take it for a ride and let it adapt, I noticed that one of my throttle cables had some slack in it at the throttle body. As I pulled the slack out of it the idle rose to a normal rate.
Next I shut off the bike and pulled some tension on the slack throttle cable from throttle body side and the throttle at the grip was stiff very to rotate.
So I've determined to replace one more part on this bike before setting it on fire.
Thanks Aberdale I think you had it right
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post #42 of 58 Old Mar 21st, 2018, 5:35 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post
So today Hallzee and Hoss were kind enough to stop by with the gs911 to help me do a little trouble shooting
The GS911 said that my TPS was tripping error codes.
In order to do the TPS measurement test with the GS-911 you have to carefully remove the Throttle Actuator so it is not influencing the reading. If you leave it on it will throw off the readings. I was doing this on the last bike that would not run right and even then I got an "out of range" on the 911 unit. When I found the one return spring off and fixed it the TSP read spot on with the 911 unit. Put the Throttle Actuator back on and she purred like a kitten.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #43 of 58 Old May 17th, 2018, 7:36 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1837473]
Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post

Tom, have you checked the resistance of the engine temp sensor yet? I stole a table posted by Sailor in Celsius and converted it to Fahrenheit with the associated resistance values. The connector is on the left side and is the bottom one of the 4 connectors under the small side panel. If you have a fairly decent meter, you can test it and see what it reads with the approximate ambient temp as a guide for what to expect. If it is really far off, that may be your issue. The post from Sailor also indicated that although we do know that the fans come on with infinite resistance ( unplugged) we don't know what a short condition would cause unless he has managed to do that experiment since that post. Here is the table in both formats.

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in celcius) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
8 .......... 4000
10 .......... 3880
14 .......... 3290
20 .......... 2570
25 .......... 2130
30 .......... 1760
35 .......... 1462
45 .......... 1049
55 .......... 727
65 .......... 540
75 .......... 392
85 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
95 .......... 229
105 ..(fans activated temp).. 187

---------------------------------------------------------
TEMP (in Farenheit) -vs- resistance (Ohms) for various cases:
---------------------------------------------------------
46.4 .......... 4000
50 .......... 3880
57.2 .......... 3290
68 .......... 2570
77 .......... 2130
86 .......... 1760
95 .......... 1462
113 .......... 1049
131 .......... 727
149 .......... 540
167 .......... 392
185 ..(thermostat opens).. 296
203 .......... 229
221 ..(fans activated temp).. 187
Are you saying that a faulty engine temperature sensor would cause it to not idle well?
I've now rode about 250 miles and around the time the engine gets hot, the engine idles no problem.
I let it cool down overnight and the next day it forgets where it was idling at.

I'm running out of ideas because I've replaced everything else. O2, Throttle Cables ect
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post #44 of 58 Old May 17th, 2018, 8:46 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=trussell;1862425]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

Are you saying that a faulty engine temperature sensor would cause it to not idle well?
I've now rode about 250 miles and around the time the engine gets hot, the engine idles no problem.
I let it cool down overnight and the next day it forgets where it was idling at.

I'm running out of ideas because I've replaced everything else. O2, Throttle Cables ect
OF COURSE, many items will affect stable idle speed at various engine temperature. On these K1200, the most common failure point being vacuum air leaks - these are subtle and can appear at many point within / around the intake system. It only takes a very small intake leak to have a large effect.

An air intake leak will also make the EFI system behave differently when engine sensor data shows warm compare to cold. Mixture needs are more critical when engine is cold. Thus, an intake air leak will mess-up the EFI computer algo and the combustion process even more when engine is cold. When engine is warm, the symptoms of intake air leak is often a high idle that does not want to go down.

The coolant temp sensor is not the most common item for these issues, but it does have an indirect effect:
When the engine is started, if Motronic EFI sees a cold value from this sensor (higher resistance in 2000 to 3000 OHMS range roughly), it has to assume engine is in fact cold. Hence it does a certain number of things that will in turn affect idle:
- Injectors pulses are longer (create a richer mixture)
- TVA (idle actuator) stepper motor will push on throttle-bodies assy to keep idle speed higher (about 1200 to 1400 rpm for a short period)
If this sensor is defective (or giving bad data) the EFI system is unable to compensate for the mixture need (and idling help) for a cold engine.


IN ADDITION to above:
The internals of the EFI system has a fail safe default mode where it will assume the engine is warm (176 F , 80 Celcius) in case of defect or doubtful data from this sensor. Thus, it is possible to have an engine perform better when warm compare to when engine is cold.

HOWEVER, a defective engine coolant temp sensor is not very common, so I cannot suggest to replace part just to test, Much better to make a series of static tests (engine OFF, ignition OFF) with a multimeter to test resistance at various engine temp (stone cold mean after stopping engine for at least 8 hours). Data values for temp -vs- resistance have been posted earlier.

These simple tests on the Engine Coolant sensor are much easier / faster than searching / troubleshooting intake air leaks. Better start with easier stuff first...

See this photo album for method to test. Keep in mind that on early K1200LT (1999-2001) this sensor connector is located on Left side BUT a bit lower than the photos. Connector has same shape / size as in photos:
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...zVu6FWt33uK0yb

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."

Last edited by sailor; May 17th, 2018 at 9:01 pm.
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post #45 of 58 Old May 17th, 2018, 9:30 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=trussell;1862425]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

Are you saying that a faulty engine temperature sensor would cause it to not idle well?
I've now rode about 250 miles and around the time the engine gets hot, the engine idles no problem.
I let it cool down overnight and the next day it forgets where it was idling at.

I'm running out of ideas because I've replaced everything else. O2, Throttle Cables ect
[quote=sailor;1862473]
Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post

OF COURSE, many items will affect stable idle speed at various engine temperature. On these K1200, the most common failure point being vacuum air leaks - these are subtle and can appear at many point within / around the intake system. It only takes a very small intake leak to have a large effect.

An air intake leak will also make the EFI system behave differently when engine sensor data shows warm compare to cold. Mixture needs are more critical when engine is cold. Thus, an intake air leak will mess-up the EFI computer algo and the combustion process even more when engine is cold. When engine is warm, the symptoms of intake air leak is often a high idle that does not want to go down.

The coolant temp sensor is not the most common item for these issues, but it does have an indirect effect:
When the engine is started, if Motronic EFI sees a cold value from this sensor (higher resistance in 2000 to 3000 OHMS range roughly), it has to assume engine is in fact cold. Hence it does a certain number of things that will in turn affect idle:
- Injectors pulses are longer (create a richer mixture)
- TVA (idle actuator) stepper motor will push on throttle-bodies assy to keep idle speed higher (about 1200 to 1400 rpm for a short period)
If this sensor is defective (or giving bad data) the EFI system is unable to compensate for the mixture need (and idling help) for a cold engine.


IN ADDITION to above:
The internals of the EFI system has a fail safe default mode where it will assume the engine is warm (176 F , 80 Celcius) in case of defect or doubtful data from this sensor. Thus, it is possible to have an engine perform better when warm compare to when engine is cold.

HOWEVER, a defective engine coolant temp sensor is not very common, so I cannot suggest to replace part just to test, Much better to make a series of static tests (engine OFF, ignition OFF) with a multimeter to test resistance at various engine temp (stone cold mean after stopping engine for at least 8 hours). Data values for temp -vs- resistance have been posted earlier.

These simple tests on the Engine Coolant sensor are much easier / faster than searching / troubleshooting intake air leaks. Better start with easier stuff first...

See this photo album for method to test. Keep in mind that on early K1200LT (1999-2001) this sensor connector is located on Left side BUT a bit lower than the photos. Connector has same shape / size as in photos:
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...zVu6FWt33uK0yb

As sailor stated, yes, it can cause issues if it is off and I agree with Sailor in that you should not just go blindly replace a $120 part hoping it will fix an issue which is why I posted the chart for you to use in doing some simple tests to see if the sensor is in the ball park or off in left base. Just one more thing to eliminate from possibility. An air leak is the most probable cause and although I didn't re-read the thread, I believe someone ( John Zeiler maybe) stated that an O2 sensor won't cause startup idle issues as the system is not in closed loop at start up and has no immediate effect on mixture.

You said you hooked up a GS911 and I want clarification. Was there an actual code for a bad TPS or did you do the position check and it showed out of the green. I had to do the test several times when I replaced my TPS before I understood it well enough to know I got it right and when to remove the TVA. As John Zeiler already stated, it will show out of adjustment if done wrong. Were any adjustments made with the 911 or was it just TPS codes read?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Ė Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Ė Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; May 17th, 2018 at 9:52 pm.
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post #46 of 58 Old May 18th, 2018, 8:23 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
In order to do the TPS measurement test with the GS-911 you have to carefully remove the Throttle Actuator so it is not influencing the reading. If you leave it on it will throw off the readings. I was doing this on the last bike that would not run right and even then I got an "out of range" on the 911 unit. When I found the one return spring off and fixed it the TSP read spot on with the 911 unit. Put the Throttle Actuator back on and she purred like a kitten.
I can only tell you what they told me because I wasn't looking at the screen and even if I was I'm not sure it would have helped much.
When they plugged it in and got it to work the only error codes on the bike were the tps. They reset the codes, we started the bike and it sort of idled sort of didn't.
Then in trouble shooting mode we pinched off the hose that runs out to the cannister (cannister ecktomy hose) in case there was a leak in the line but there was no change.
Next Hoss removed the TPS and and reinstalled it and said he thought the spring may have seated itself but he wasn't sure. So we started and it sort of idled. There were no more error codes to erase so we just thought at the time I just needed to take it out for a ride and it would settle down.
I have and it does but only once it's warm.
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post #47 of 58 Old May 18th, 2018, 8:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=sailor;1862473]
Quote:
Originally Posted by trussell View Post

OF COURSE, many items will affect stable idle speed at various engine temperature. On these K1200, the most common failure point being vacuum air leaks - these are subtle and can appear at many point within / around the intake system. It only takes a very small intake leak to have a large effect.

An air intake leak will also make the EFI system behave differently when engine sensor data shows warm compare to cold. Mixture needs are more critical when engine is cold. Thus, an intake air leak will mess-up the EFI computer algo and the combustion process even more when engine is cold. When engine is warm, the symptoms of intake air leak is often a high idle that does not want to go down.

The coolant temp sensor is not the most common item for these issues, but it does have an indirect effect:
When the engine is started, if Motronic EFI sees a cold value from this sensor (higher resistance in 2000 to 3000 OHMS range roughly), it has to assume engine is in fact cold. Hence it does a certain number of things that will in turn affect idle:
- Injectors pulses are longer (create a richer mixture)
- TVA (idle actuator) stepper motor will push on throttle-bodies assy to keep idle speed higher (about 1200 to 1400 rpm for a short period)
If this sensor is defective (or giving bad data) the EFI system is unable to compensate for the mixture need (and idling help) for a cold engine.


IN ADDITION to above:
The internals of the EFI system has a fail safe default mode where it will assume the engine is warm (176 F , 80 Celcius) in case of defect or doubtful data from this sensor. Thus, it is possible to have an engine perform better when warm compare to when engine is cold.

HOWEVER, a defective engine coolant temp sensor is not very common, so I cannot suggest to replace part just to test, Much better to make a series of static tests (engine OFF, ignition OFF) with a multimeter to test resistance at various engine temp (stone cold mean after stopping engine for at least 8 hours). Data values for temp -vs- resistance have been posted earlier.

These simple tests on the Engine Coolant sensor are much easier / faster than searching / troubleshooting intake air leaks. Better start with easier stuff first...

See this photo album for method to test. Keep in mind that on early K1200LT (1999-2001) this sensor connector is located on Left side BUT a bit lower than the photos. Connector has same shape / size as in photos:
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...zVu6FWt33uK0yb
Link says 404. Thatís an error.
The requested URL was not found on this server.

I will look for it on this board here somewhere tonight and tear back into it. I hope my ohm meter and my ohm meter skills are up to the task.
Two thoughts
I'm with you on the vacuum leak...very possible as the rubber on this bike is 18 years old and pretty susceptible to cracks, lack of flexibility to seat well ect. I should have thought about it and sprayed around with some starter fluid to detect an idle change before I wrapped it back up. But the idle speed never gets anywhere near 1400 as it may when it is warm and running lean. But not ruling it out

I'll test the temp sensor first as it is the easiest. But what are the chances that it is the TPS?
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post #48 of 58 Old May 18th, 2018, 9:30 pm
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

[quote=trussell;1862913]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post

Link says 404. That’s an error.
The requested URL was not found on this server.

I will look for it on this board here somewhere tonight and tear back into it. I hope my ohm meter and my ohm meter skills are up to the task.
Two thoughts
I'm with you on the vacuum leak...very possible as the rubber on this bike is 18 years old and pretty susceptible to cracks, lack of flexibility to seat well ect. I should have thought about it and sprayed around with some starter fluid to detect an idle change before I wrapped it back up. But the idle speed never gets anywhere near 1400 as it may when it is warm and running lean. But not ruling it out

I'll test the temp sensor first as it is the easiest. But what are the chances that it is the TPS?
A bad TPS would likely show up as bad or dead spots or noisy from dirt. If you have ever grabbed the volume knob of an old stereo and moved it back and forth and heard static or pops, that is what would most likely happen to the TPS and that would show up as hesitation or flat/dead spots as you roll on the throttle. If the bad/dirty spot developed at the bottom of the TPS, I suppose it could cause an issue. Let me post a PDF done by Sailor ( I do not claim this wonderful work) for you to read. It explains the TPS and how it uses two separate potentiometers inside to handle the very low throttle positions and the more open positions. They don't go bad very often but it has been known to happen. The rough or bad idle would more likely be due to deterioration of and corrosion around the base of the throttle body manifold O-ring seals or cracks on the rubber bushings connecting the TB's to the manifolds if no other more obvious vacuum leak is found.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Position-Sensor TPS (version 1-2).pdf (381.6 KB, 271 views)

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Ė Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Ė Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #49 of 58 Old May 19th, 2018, 7:26 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by trussel View Post

Link says 404. That’s an error.
The requested URL was not found on this server.

I will look for it on this board here somewhere tonight and tear back into it. I hope my ohm meter and my ohm meter skills are up to the task.
Two thoughts
I'm with you on the vacuum leak...very possible as the rubber on this bike is 18 years old and pretty susceptible to cracks, lack of flexibility to seat well ect. I should have thought about it and sprayed around with some starter fluid to detect an idle change before I wrapped it back up. But the idle speed never gets anywhere near 1400 as it may when it is warm and running lean. But not ruling it out

I'll test the temp sensor first as it is the easiest. But what are the chances that it is the TPS?
Sorry about the photo album link error... I can go there myself because I am the owner of the album.
When PICASSA was bought / transfered to Google photos ownership, it has caused all kind of similar problems with older links.

Try this link instead and let me know if it works (same album from Picassa archives):
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...zVu6FWt33uK0yb

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
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post #50 of 58 Old May 19th, 2018, 7:39 am
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Re: Clutch rebuilt now wonít idle well

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

A bad TPS would likely show up as bad or dead spots or noisy from dirt. If you have ever grabbed the volume knob of an old stereo and moved it back and forth and heard static or pops, that is what would most likely happen to the TPS and that would show up as hesitation or flat/dead spots as you roll on the throttle. If the bad/dirty spot developed at the bottom of the TPS, I suppose it could cause an issue. Let me post a PDF done by Sailor ( I do not claim this wonderful work) for you to read. It explains the TPS and how it uses two separate potentiometers inside to handle the very low throttle positions and the more open positions. They don't go bad very often but it has been known to happen. The rough or bad idle would more likely be due to deterioration of and corrosion around the base of the throttle body manifold O-ring seals or cracks on the rubber bushings connecting the TB's to the manifolds if no other more obvious vacuum leak is found.
Although TPS defect are not common, the file might be helpful to eliminate this option as a problem.

HOWEVER, based something that TOM has typed earlier: "Next Hoss removed the TPS and and reinstalled it and..."
I see other MORE PROBABLE causes where they have messed-up the Throttle-bodies (TB) opening to TPS relationship.

If anything like this (either of these) has been done, it will cause problems:
(1) TPS was bolted back when the TB was not at idle stop with TVA (idle-actuator) unbolted,

(2) TPS was bolted back or moved without checking either proper voltage alignemnt OR proper alignement based on GS911 OR using dealers computer (with TVA removed)

(3) after his clutch job, the cables free-play was not set properly and the TB are not sitting at idle stop completely (this will mess-up any attempt at setting TPS)

The above items are a lot more common than a defective TPS unit. Often one or several of the above have been self-inflicted after a major clutch job - We have seen this movie so many times here on forums during last 15 years ;-)
Patric likes this.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."
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