Clutch slave weep hole- how deep? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 4:14 pm Thread Starter
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Clutch slave weep hole- how deep?

Hi Chaps,
I'm drilling the clutch slave housing for a weep hole without removing the slave but how deep will I go before I can expect to break through the casting of the housing? I'm afraid to go much deeper without some advice. For those who have done this, can you see, in the hole, the gap between the housing and the slave body?
-Kent
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post #2 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 4:39 pm
 
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Comparing these two photos, you will see that there is very little (if any) room for error. In fact, I'm not ever sure you'll get the tip of the bit through without drilling into the slave cylinder body. Furthermore, the fact that you'll be leaving shavings inside there is not a good idea, IMO. The shortcut you're proposing may be doing more harm than good. Food for thought.




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post #3 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 5:03 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
Comparing these two photos, you will see that there is very little (if any) room for error.
Thx for the photos. Comparing the 6mm caps screws in the shot, it looks like the housing is about 8mm thick (.315"). I have drilled about 5/16" deep (.3125) and was afraid I'd drilled too far but it appears I need to go a few thousanths more.

Your comment about chips and damaging the slave are well taken but I talked to a guy at the last tech session here in NC who says he has done several of them without removing the swing arm & slave. I wouldn't think any remaining chips would migrate up to damage anything. He said just go slow and keep checking. I'd still like to know if I can expect to feel the drill break through.
-Kent
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post #4 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 5:05 pm Thread Starter
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BTW, is the slave body dark plastic or dark anodized aluminum? Dark plastic would make it a lot easier to see when you're through the housing.
-Kent
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post #5 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 5:10 pm
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Look At Picture #2

Look at picture Number 2 of Joe's post and you'll see the color of the slave cylinder. It is metal...not plastic. HOWEVER....IMHO, I agree with Joe and would not consider driling the hole without removing the cylinder. That's just my 2 cents.

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post #6 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 6:46 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyOrBike
Hi Chaps,
I'm drilling the clutch slave housing for a weep hole without removing the slave but how deep will I go before I can expect to break through the casting of the housing? I'm afraid to go much deeper without some advice. For those who have done this, can you see, in the hole, the gap between the housing and the slave body?
-Kent
Hi Kent, with all due respect, slave cylinder gasket cost ~$2; a new slave cylinder ~ $100. Pull it out before drilling for three reasons: clean out the shavings and inspect it for DOT 4 (if there's any, you should removing the transmission); and why risk the slave cylinder?

Regards,
John
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post #7 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 6:52 pm
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Kent,
I have wondered how long it would be until someone crawling under their K12LT would see how inviting it is to drill the transmission casting that houses the "clutch slave cylinder"! Kent, it is hard to measure to give you the amount to drill because the slave's barrel is 32mm long and you are of course on the outside drilling upwards on a sloping surface. But, if your "in there" drilling know that slave barrel has "rattle room" surrounding it. The slave cyl is not tight fit, rather it has lottsa room....... about a half mm (.020") so if you want to do a clean break through into that clear space now, go to a square end bit (grind one if you have to). Even if you went beyond the clear space and drilled into the barrel of the slave it is nearly 5 mm thick. You should feel a little "give" when ending drilling the transmission housing before touching the barrel of the slave itself. Upon taking my slave apart and posting pics here (forum) it appears to be aluminum or pot. If you do these suggestions and drill slowly and look often(clean-out) you should be ok. If someone doing this gets an "oil gusher" it'll be brake fluid. I think if the gusher was transmission GL the clutch would already be slipping. Hopefully not either case for you but then the swing arm has to come off and perhaps that person can report how this type of drilling actually looks.......... debris etc. Speaking of that......... if you are midway on the length of the slave barrel (half of 32mm) the debris would have to find its way thru that thin space (about .020") for a horizontal distance of 16 mm then climb up vertically about 16 mm and either work its way backwards into the throwout bearing which is smeared full of grease and/ or somehow fling itself onto the clutch actuating rod and get past the transmission seal. Remember all of us with slave weep holes now have a place where water, debris and tiny insects that carry mud can get to. So you are where we are on liability plus this additional possibility that I have outline above. People have commented on whether there is room for drainage to occur........ plenty, after all it is nearly a half millimeter with only a slight taper, so the "debris" shouldn't have much of a damming affect. We need someone doing this that has a "gusher" OH NO! but, then can report on how it looks once they pull the slave cyl off or out.

Carl

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Last edited by Tourdog; Dec 18th, 2006 at 7:12 pm.
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post #8 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 7:56 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyOrBike
Thx for the photos. Comparing the 6mm caps screws in the shot, it looks like the housing is about 8mm thick (.315"). I have drilled about 5/16" deep (.3125) and was afraid I'd drilled too far but it appears I need to go a few thousanths more.

Your comment about chips and damaging the slave are well taken but I talked to a guy at the last tech session here in NC who says he has done several of them without removing the swing arm & slave. I wouldn't think any remaining chips would migrate up to damage anything. He said just go slow and keep checking. I'd still like to know if I can expect to feel the drill break through.
-Kent
Who has done several without removing the slave??

I personally do not recommend it. I am a very experienced mechanical engineer and previous machinist and tool and die maker, and have looked at the slave cylinder assembly very carefully and in detail. It is too dangerous to get ANY metal particles in the end of the piston in the slave, as they may get into the little ball thrust bearing and seize it, or cause scratching of the cylinder/piston surface.

I would not be able to ride with confidence, and always wondering when the slave is going to fail possibly from metal particles.

Of course if it does, at least you now have the drain hole and do not have to replace the clutch assembly!

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David Shealey
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post #9 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 8:52 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Who has done several without removing the slave??
It is too dangerous to get ANY metal particles in the end of the piston in the slave, as they may get into the little ball thrust bearing and seize it, or cause scratching of the cylinder/piston surface.
In for a penny, in for a pound. The chap I spoke to seemed experienced. Do you agree that there's a half milimeter or so between the slave body and the housing? Thx.
-Kent
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post #10 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 9:05 pm
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What about flushing it out ?

I'm close to drilling mine and it sure would be a time saver to not have to dissemble it first. Would it be possible to simply flush it out with X after the hole is drilled?

Dano
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post #11 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 9:24 pm
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OH NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Don't do that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandiver
I'm close to drilling mine and it sure would be a time saver to not have to dissemble it first. Would it be possible to simply flush it out with X after the hole is drilled?
Dan...if there were shavings left in there, that would possibly just force them on up into the "danger zone". I would never try to "flush" them out.

I haven't mentioned this up to this point, but here goes. In my opinion, it is imperative to also check the Transmission Input Seal while doing the Slave Replacement/Weephole. If EITHER that seal OR the Slave Cylinder leak, they both need to be replaced respectively. This is not mentioned in the instructions we used, but should be done.

I personally hosted the Tech Session in NC...and it was NOT me or Mike (the other leader) who recommended drilling this w/o removal of the cylinder. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I respect that but, I have performed at least 4 of these procedures and every one of them had a significant remnant of shavings inside of the cavity. NOT ACCEPTABLE for me to leave that in my motor. No way...No how. I agree with David.

Jack Homesley
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post #12 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 9:29 pm
 
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Go for the entire process with the swingarm removal. You'll be shocked how much filings come out in the slave housing after drilling. I played it safe and sucked them out with an attachment on my shop vac and then used a rag to wipe the housing clean. I felt confident after completion of the process as I did get a peek inside the housing for any slave leakage and the condition of the throwout bearing. In addition, I now get a nice clear view up into the weephole with a mirror and flashlight to check every now and then. My 2.

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post #13 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 10:07 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyOrBike
In for a penny, in for a pound. The chap I spoke to seemed experienced. Do you agree that there's a half milimeter or so between the slave body and the housing? Thx.
-Kent
I did not measure it, but that seems about right. It is not a tight fit at all.

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post #14 of 26 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 10:26 pm
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Some of the questions here would make me wonder at the level of "Wrench" ability. I am saying that because drilling up into an area you don't know much about could lead to unwanted consequences! There are a lot of good mechanics on this forum and I have simply wondered how long it would be before "someone of them" drilled that weep hole without removing the swing-arm. There is no question that "debris" will be left there but I submit that it is contained within the arc of the cavity and external surface of the slave barrel which is a half millimeter or less (rem. it is a cast cavity and bored with a cutter). There is little room for it to be accelerated and flung about very far . I meant in my post "we need someone to varify that little debris is deposited and it stays around the drill hole". The slave it self is by "Magura" and presumeably is always cast the same? One thing you should know is that drilling this way still allows you to remove the Final Drive and the Swing Arm and remove the Slave and clean out the area of debris. It should have much less debris than when drilling (the traditional way) after the slave has been removed. Why? Because the slave's barrel provides a capping affect and the aluminum will tend to shard and spiral along the flutes of the drill bit (go slowly). Whether you drill first........... then remove the swing arm or remove the swing arm first and then drill. You still have the option to see how well you did and remove the debris, or (not). But, please tell everyone how it looked so we all can learn something. I think this best be done by the most experienced wrench. Had I simply drilled mine I would have had a mini-gusher and most importantly got going on R&R the swing-arm and leaking slave much earlier than I did. But, if I was going on a trip and had 40,000 miles or so................... I would be drilling that hole and until we have some positive reports on how little debris is there (and where) the rest of project would be R&R too.

Carl

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post #15 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 9:13 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourdog
Some of the questions here would make me wonder at the level of "Wrench" ability. I am saying that because drilling up into an area you don't know much about could lead to unwanted consequences! There are a lot of good mechanics on this forum and I have simply wondered how long it would be before "someone of them" drilled that weep hole without removing the swing-arm. There is no question that "debris" will be left there but I submit that it is contained within the arc of the cavity and external surface of the slave barrel which is a half millimeter or less (rem. it is a cast cavity and bored with a cutter). There is little room for it to be accelerated and flung about very far . I meant in my post "we need someone to varify that little debris is deposited and it stays around the drill hole". The slave it self is by "Magura" and presumeably is always cast the same? One thing you should know is that drilling this way still allows you to remove the Final Drive and the Swing Arm and remove the Slave and clean out the area of debris. It should have much less debris than when drilling (the traditional way) after the slave has been removed. Why? Because the slave's barrel provides a capping affect and the aluminum will tend to shard and spiral along the flutes of the drill bit (go slowly). Whether you drill first........... then remove the swing arm or remove the swing arm first and then drill. You still have the option to see how well you did and remove the debris, or (not). But, please tell everyone how it looked so we all can learn something. I think this best be done by the most experienced wrench. Had I simply drilled mine I would have had a mini-gusher and most importantly got going on R&R the swing-arm and leaking slave much earlier than I did. But, if I was going on a trip and had 40,000 miles or so................... I would be drilling that hole and until we have some positive reports on how little debris is there (and where) the rest of project would be R&R too.
It is very possible that one could drill carefully, and as you stated use a flat pointed drill for the break-through, and leave few chips. However, there are a lot of people doing this, with varying levels of mechanical knowledge and training. For that reason we should strive to make the basic procedure so that alll will be successful, and not have a chance of any metal shavings causing a problem down the road. I am about as experienced in mechanics and machining as anyone here, but still would remove the slave to do the job. I would never propose to the general membership that drilling the hole without removing the slave is a less than risky approach. Anyone with good training and skills can certainly decide to do it without removing the slave first, but that is a choice only each person can make, and should not be proposed as a low risk approach for anyone.

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David Shealey
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post #16 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 1:27 pm
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ok then why do we need a 6" drill bit ?
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post #17 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 2:23 pm
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Because it's easier than removing the whole tranny or turning the bike upside-down.

Removing the slave cylinder just gives access to the back of the hole (and lets you see if there are any signs of leakage already). You still need to get up to the slave cylinder mounting boss where the hole starts. In order to clear everything else that's in the way, you need a long drill bit.

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post #18 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 3:04 pm
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Good education

I sincerely appreciate all of the comments and prior experience and will definitely go the 3 hour route. Does not seem to be worth the risk. Guess I know what my next project is as soon as the riding season is over in Florida.

Just got to get the garage air conditioned.....

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post #19 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 3:29 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenny
ok then why do we need a 6" drill bit ?
To drill the hole without removing the cross member behind the transmission. That is a part that only needs to be removed if the transmission is coming out. Even when the swing arm and slave are removed, that cross member is still there.

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post #20 of 26 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 3:32 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
Because it's easier than removing the whole tranny or turning the bike upside-down.

Removing the slave cylinder just gives access to the back of the hole (and lets you see if there are any signs of leakage already). You still need to get up to the slave cylinder mounting boss where the hole starts. In order to clear everything else that's in the way, you need a long drill bit.
It is just the cross member behind the tranny that is in the way. That could be removed, but is more work that does not need to be done. Also, a standard length drill would cause the drill chuck to hit the bottom of the tranny even if the cross member were out of the way so you would have to drill at an angle. That is no problem if one wishes to go that way, but wil increase the danger of hitting the rear oil seal on the tranny input shaft.

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post #21 of 26 Old Mar 15th, 2007, 9:39 am
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Clutch drilling

Ok, Ok, I've been away from the group for a couple years. What am I missing? What years are affected by the "weep" problem?

thanks,

radar

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post #22 of 26 Old Mar 15th, 2007, 10:57 am
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All years are affected and it is not so much a weep problem but rather a weep solution. Where does the fluid go when the slave cylinder starts leaking? Right into the clutch. The weep hole gives the fluid an alternate path and a visual indication to allow you to take action before the clutch is trashed.

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post #23 of 26 Old Mar 15th, 2007, 7:04 pm
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Drain hole.

Ipretty much started the drain hole drilling, as I believe I was the first person to do it.

I would like to suggest that it should be called a DRAIN hole, not a WEEP hole. Weeping is normally a very small, slow leak. A failed slave cylinder will at some point cause a rather large pressurized flow of fluid under force, and if the drain path is small enough to be considered a "weep" hole, it will be overwhelmed and fluid forced down the shaft.

Just semantics, not all that important as long as everyone knows that a tiny hole will NOT work.

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post #24 of 26 Old Mar 15th, 2007, 9:36 pm
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OK, I guess it is official now

From this point forward we will all refer to the drilled hole as the slave cylinder drain hole.

Thanks David, you are a fantastic resource here and as far as I'm concerned whatever you say goes.....especially since you invented the DRAIN hole.

Thanks,
Kevin

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post #25 of 26 Old Mar 15th, 2007, 11:42 pm
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Quote:
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OK, I guess it is official now

From this point forward we will all refer to the drilled hole as the slave cylinder drain hole.

Thanks David, you are a fantastic resource here and as far as I'm concerned whatever you say goes.....especially since you invented the DRAIN hole.

Thanks,
Kevin
Yeh, thanks David, but it's time to give credit where credit is due! Who invented the hole? ... no demeaning adjectives

Regards,
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post #26 of 26 Old Mar 16th, 2007, 2:30 pm
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Smile Slave cylinder hole drilling procedure

The concern about possible contamination (debris) working itself vertically into the drilled hole and affecting internals is relatively low, however, one might consider the following:

I have PM'd David Shealey regarding the possibility of tapping the hole for 10-32 threads and inserting a male nipple to which a short length of Model Airplane fuel tubing could be attached and then a in-line filter which in turn has a short length of fuel tubing on the other end...David concurred but stated he had not included this step to date. This step would totally prevent any debris from getting up to the drilled/tapped hole and there would also be a visual presentation of any fluid present in the tubing above/below the filter.

From RC Model Supply Stores such as Central Hobbies in Montana or Tower Hobbies in Illinois, the fuel tubing (available in small, medium, large, and x-large) and filter are available. The x-large fuel tubing and large filter would probably be best...filters can be disassembled/re-assembled for cleaning. The tubing can be further secured onto the filter inlet/outlet by using small spring-loaded clips secured over these connections.

When I eventually drill/tap the hole in my 05 LT, I shall do the above operation and post photos/text on the forum.

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