Final Drive Pivot Needle Bearings - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 28 Old Dec 13th, 2006, 10:02 pm Thread Starter
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Final Drive Pivot Needle Bearings

Has anyone replaced their Final Drive Pivot Needle bearings with the Rubber Chicken Racing Final Drive Pivot Bushings??? I have just found this company in my search for Final Drive solutions. They produce this bushing bearing from 660 oilite oil impregnated material which is used to replace the 33 17 2 311 091 needle bearings. When I removed my final drive I found these needle bearings to be completely shot the needle rollers are flattened and the races are heavily indented where the needle rollers made contact.
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post #2 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 7:07 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
Has anyone replaced their Final Drive Pivot Needle bearings with the Rubber Chicken Racing Final Drive Pivot Bushings??? I have just found this company in my search for Final Drive solutions. They produce this bushing bearing from 660 oilite oil impregnated material which is used to replace the 33 17 2 311 091 needle bearings. When I removed my final drive I found these needle bearings to be completely shot the needle rollers are flattened and the races are heavily indented where the needle rollers made contact.
BMW has changed the bearings to roller bearings, do the oem upgrade .

Pete Murray
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2002 LT 171 K Gone
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post #3 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 8:23 am Thread Starter
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Final Drive Pivot Bearings

Murray do you have the upgrade part number??? The current part number shown 33 17 2 311 091 is the needle roller bearing design same as I removed from my final drive.
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post #4 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 9:39 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
Murray do you have the upgrade part number??? The current part number shown 33 17 2 311 091 is the needle roller bearing design same as I removed from my final drive.
The part # you listed is correct. On the parts Fische BMW continues to call the part a needle bearing. Ask ypur parts man to pull the bearing BMW is now using the old part # for the new roller bearing.

Pete Murray
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post #5 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 9:46 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
Has anyone replaced their Final Drive Pivot Needle bearings with the Rubber Chicken Racing Final Drive Pivot Bushings??? I have just found this company in my search for Final Drive solutions. They produce this bushing bearing from 660 oilite oil impregnated material which is used to replace the 33 17 2 311 091 needle bearings. When I removed my final drive I found these needle bearings to be completely shot the needle rollers are flattened and the races are heavily indented where the needle rollers made contact.
I tried to find information on how they are made, but the www.rubberchickingracinggarage.com site only has apparel such as tee shirts and hats for sale. No mention of his bearings. I did find a post on another board mentioning them, but where have you found any ordering information?

If the bushings are tapered so that they can be adjusted same as the present rollers, then it is probably a good idea. If they are just straight bushings, not a good idea, as they will have a little play in them at best, and wear will increase it. I assume they are tapered and ride in the stock outer race though.

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post #6 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 10:20 am Thread Starter
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Final Drive Pivot Bearings

David, yes they are a tapered bushing that is matched to a Timken Bearing outer race. I received this information via Email from Tom Cutter the owner of Rubber Chicken Racing. I wonder how many of these bearings are found to be defective when the boys are removing the final drive to do the clutch release hole drilling procedure, or if they are in fact inspecting these bearings when they have the final drive off.
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post #7 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 10:38 am
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I too need to replace mine, any info on ordering, price etc, would be appreciated
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post #8 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 5:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
David, yes they are a tapered bushing that is matched to a Timken Bearing outer race. I received this information via Email from Tom Cutter the owner of Rubber Chicken Racing. I wonder how many of these bearings are found to be defective when the boys are removing the final drive to do the clutch release hole drilling procedure, or if they are in fact inspecting these bearings when they have the final drive off.
I have had a few of these apart, mine three times in 110.000 miles, but never found a bad bearing yet. I think the ones that are found bad were run with the preload too loose. That will certainly cause the type of damage reported, brinelled races and rollers, broken rollers etc..

If the preload is correct that will not happen.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #9 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 8:22 pm Thread Starter
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Final Drive Pivot Bearings

I just came from the BMW dealer (2-1/2) hour drive each way and had him pull a new pivot bearing and it is exactly the same needle roller bearing that I removed from the final drive. So the final drive had the upgraded bearings installed and they were now defective. The BMW shop tech he told that they find a lot of those bearings "NOTCHY" as he called it and they replace a lot of them. Sheldan the cost of the bushing type of bearing set is $119.00 plus $8.00 freight and they are available from http://www.RuberChickenRacingGarage.com or their shop phone number is 215-321-7944.
Disclaimer: I have no interest in this company I just found them a few days ago through some searches I was conducting on final drive issues.
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post #10 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 10:51 pm
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Are you sure your dealer had the latest parts in hand? Sometimes the warehouse will ship old parts even after new ones are available. Especially if they're using the same part # on both.

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post #11 of 28 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 11:02 pm
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Thanks for the info moonshine
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post #12 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 6:42 am
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Which bearings are being discussed?

Since I have never taken the final drive off of one of these bikes yet... Would someone please clarify which bearings are being discussed here.

Is it the pivot bearings next to the final drive? I.e. where final drive attaches to the swing arm.

Is it the swing arm pivot bearings next to the tranny? I.e. where the swing arm attaches to the frame.

Reading through the post(s) I am not sure which of these is being discussed.

thanks

Roy

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post #13 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 7:07 am
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These Are The Bearing Near The Rear Drive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear
Since I have never taken the final drive off of one of these bikes yet... Would someone please clarify which bearings are being discussed here.

Is it the pivot bearings next to the final drive? I.e. where final drive attaches to the swing arm.

Is it the swing arm pivot bearings next to the tranny? I.e. where the swing arm attaches to the frame.

Reading through the post(s) I am not sure which of these is being discussed.

thanks

Roy

...where the rear drive connects to the swing arm. I know this because Mike Sheldan and I just removed his and the races were indented.

I agree with Dave that this is due to improper adjustment and probably not a fault with the bearing.

Mike...please think twice before going to a bushing over this bearing. I don't believe I would do it for long range riding. Racing, maybe...long term...nope.

Jack Homesley
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post #14 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 10:54 am
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Bearings identified

Thanks Jack

I plan on drilling the weep hole and giving my bike the once over this spring in preparation for a possible trip out west. I figure the more info I can glean from this forum, the better my odds of not needing to use the MOA Annymous book.

Roy

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post #15 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 11:52 am Thread Starter
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Final Drive Pivot bearings

When did BMW make the switch from needle bearings to roller bearings as an upgrade?? The pivot bearings the BMW dealer showed me were their new stock they received from BMW within the past 30 days.
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post #16 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 1:09 pm
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As Ken Messe stated here, BMW does not do a first in first out shipment from the main warehouse. As they add new parts they just throw them in the bin with the old. When a part request comes in, they grab whatever and ship it. Since the part number is the same, to them it doesn't matter. As in this case, needle bearing or flat bearing with same part number.

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post #17 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 1:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
As Ken Messe stated here, BMW does not do a first in first out shipment from the main warehouse. As they add new parts they just throw them in the bin with the old. When a part request comes in, they grab whatever and ship it. Since the part number is the same, to them it doesn't matter. As in this case, needle bearing or flat bearing with same part number.
Similar to the reports on the FD crown bearing 19--17--19. Tapered bearings may come back.

Pete Murray
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post #18 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 3:39 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
When did BMW make the switch from needle bearings to roller bearings as an upgrade?? The pivot bearings the BMW dealer showed me were their new stock they received from BMW within the past 30 days.
They always have been small tapered rollers, at least on the LT, probably all models though. Some have incorrectly called them needle bearings because of the rather small size of the rollers. Needle bearings are always straight races, not tapered, which would not work here as they would always have some clearance, and could not be adjusted for side play.

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David Shealey
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post #19 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 9:50 pm Thread Starter
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Bearing Description

David, I tend to agree with your description on the type of bearing description however the term "needle" is the term BMW uses in their parts book to describe that bearing. They also use the term "needle roller bearing" in the service manual to describe that bearing. Possibly BMW uses the term "needle bearing" due of the small size of the rollers, or possibly that is the correct term for that bearing. And as far as BMW practice of shipping what they have on hand I am sure that practice is true however since someone has already received roller bearings it would be my guess that the old inventory has been depleted and they are now shipping the upgraded bearings from the warehouse. Or mabe they did not receive them but heard that there was an upgrade for that bearing and was passing on the information to us. And another possibility is that we could possibly be talking about the exact same bearing style & type just using different terms to describe it, I have done that more than once in my life.
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post #20 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 10:22 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonshine
David, I tend to agree with your description on the type of bearing description however the term "needle" is the term BMW uses in their parts book to describe that bearing. ==========================.
BMW uses a lot of terms that are different from terms used for decades to describe something. Part if it may be German NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome.

One glaring one is the starter Sprag clutch, invented by Formsprag, and all industry users have called them Sprag clutches for decades, but BMW calls it the "Freewheel Gear and Cage Assembly".

Needle bearings have straight rollers, Tapered Roller bearings have, surprisingly, Tapered Rollers. Anytime the races have tapered running faces, the rollers have to be tapered too, so that the surface speed of eacn end of the roller due to it's rotation is identical, otherwise the roller would "skew" and try to misalign as the bearing races move.

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IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #21 of 28 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 10:50 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Bingo

David you have hit the nail on the head. Even though the bearing is preloaded as per the instructions how will a straight needle roller ever work properly in that application without scuffing the rollers??? I am getting more convinced that a bushing bearing in that application will work better than a needle roller but it must be lubricated properly at all times to prevent it from seizing in the taper race and turning on the pin.
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post #22 of 28 Old Apr 1st, 2007, 10:12 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Update

I have installed the Rubber Chicken Racing bushing type of pivot bearings in the final drive. My bike always felt like it had a slight movement to the side, like I was getting some rear wheel steer (racing term) when I would shift from 1st to 2nd with a lot of throttle. I have now over 1,000 miles on the bike since installing these bushing bearings and the bike is more stable than it has ever been since I have owned it. I think these bushing bearings are over priced for what you get but if they continue to perform as they have up to now without having to replace them every 20,000 miles then the value will be there. I will report back from time to time as I add miles to the bike. I am now at 70,000 and hope we make it to 100,000 without too much trouble. P.S. I have no interest in the Rubber Chicken Racing organization, just reporting on my results since installing their bearing replacement kit.
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post #23 of 28 Old Apr 2nd, 2007, 6:15 am
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Smile Checked and Replaced

When doing my weep hole I found one of the rollers missing ! Still don't know how but replaced both. AUD $ 88.00 each, Ouch !!! Did make up a jig to stabilize the F/D when removing (see pic) and so remove the possibility of snagging the bearing during assembly. Did as the book said; 9 Nm to pre-load release and then 7 Nm final assembly. So easy to check.
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post #24 of 28 Old Apr 11th, 2007, 10:11 am
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2005 LT final drive questions

I have a 05 LT with 8k on one season.
When should I start to worry about final drive problems and what should I look for.
I am hoping it will occur within my 24mo -26k warranty.
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post #25 of 28 Old Apr 11th, 2007, 8:59 pm Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Pivot Bearings

I don't think there is a recommended inspection of these needle bearings in any of the normal service sequences. The process requires the removal of the final drive assembly to get to these pivot bearings for inspection. I replaced the needle bearings with the bushing type at 70,000 miles. The final drive had to be rebuilt due to large ball bearing failure that is why I removed the final drive assembly. I am wondering if people are doing a close inspection of these bearings when they are disassembling the final drive assembly to drill the slave cylinder weep hole, as this would be a perfect time to check these.
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post #26 of 28 Old Aug 3rd, 2007, 11:41 am
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Wink The Preload Is Very Important!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
I have had a few of these apart, mine three times in 110.000 miles, but never found a bad bearing yet. I think the ones that are found bad were run with the preload too loose. That will certainly cause the type of damage reported, brinelled races and rollers, broken rollers etc..

If the preload is correct that will not happen.
I have to agree with dshealey, as I have in the past tighten the preload too much and indenting the races, which led me to replace them 10,000 miles later. I have preloaded the bearings to the correct spec. and have not had a problem in 60,000 miles. THE PRELOAD IS VERY IMPORTANT!

Wolf
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post #27 of 28 Old Aug 4th, 2007, 2:32 am Thread Starter
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Question Factory setting not right?

Then the factory must be having a tough time getting the preload set right at the time of manufacture, Surprise Surprise.

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post #28 of 28 Old Oct 8th, 2007, 4:24 pm Thread Starter
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Article in Oct BMWON

Have you read the article in the October 2007 BMWON publication on page 28 about the final drive pivot bearings. Paul Glaves states that he has never removed a final drive and found the pivot needle bearings suitable to be reused. This is a very good article on the service of the final drive that has a actual solution to the problem.

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