Ride Like a Pro -Jerry Palladino - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
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post #1 of 41 Old Dec 13th, 2006, 9:03 am Thread Starter
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Ride Like a Pro -Jerry Palladino

I just spoke with Jerry who made the above named video on slow speed handling. As many of you know this technique involves using only the rear brake and feathering or riding the clutch. According to him, at very slow speeds the computer on the 1200LT unlinks the brakes for the most part and it is predominantly the rear brake being used when you depress that pedal. He also said that feathering the clutch at slow speeds must be done with caution in the LT because it is a dry clutch as opposed to a lubricated clutch in the Harleys.
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post #2 of 41 Old Dec 13th, 2006, 9:25 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
He also said that feathering the clutch at slow speeds must be done with caution in the LT because it is a dry clutch as opposed to a lubricated clutch in the Harleys.
1. I have his videos, and have been helped greatly by them.
2. Can you explain the difference between clutches, and how feathing affects each?

Thanks.
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post #3 of 41 Old Dec 13th, 2006, 9:26 am
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Today's Training and a word of caution, or you get to smell something really awful

the partial engagement of the clutch is alternatively known as the "grey area" or "friction zone." Harley, BMW or whatever, it all works basically the same, but if you're going to do slow-speed stuff while "dragging the rear brake"--which should only be "feathered" lightly to control when you get moving too fast, as forum members and two of the best riders I've ever seen Dick Rothermel and Rick Humphries would say, the true control of a motorcycle in slow maneuvers is in the CLUTCH, not the brake or throttle, you need to be in the bottom of the friction zone.

Finding it?

In first gear, pull the clutch all the way in, throttle up to about 1,500 RPM or so, then gradually and incrementally let the clutch out (fractions of milimeters) until you get to the point that it is just beginning to engage and the motorcycle is starting to transfer power to the rear wheel. That would be the "bottom" of the grey area/friction zone. Everything from there until you are fully engaged constitutes the entire "zone" if you will.

Phrases like "you are too deep into the clutch" refer to when riders doing slow-riding techniques have way too much clutch engaged (or if this is confusing, "they have the lever too far out from the left handle") and are making up for it by putting too much pressure on the rear brake and also over-revving the enging...which with either a wet or dry clutch can lead to ROASTING the clutch...much quicker on our precious LT's.

MUCH better to be on the shallow end of the friction zone/grey area,but keep your rpms around 1,500 to maybe 2,000.

If you have the clutch lever half or 2/3 out (too much engaged), you're going to roast it, which will result in two things...a simply awful stench that, like a burning body you will never forget, and a repair bill that, like a burning body, you'll never forget...


As you practice this, start off in an unobstructed parking lot doing figure-8's, turning your head before you turn your motorcycle (the bike follows your head and eyes, remember) and as you become more comfortable, tighten the circles that make up the figure 8's.

To keep from becoming a member of the D.A. Club, remember the other mantra, as long as power is going to the rear wheel, the motorcycle WANTS to remain upright...if you suck in the clutch lever, that takes power away from the rear wheel, removing the gyroscopic forces that make the bike want to stay upright, and--as a former instructor/employee of mine used to say before he had to be let go, "you'll go down faster than his sister on his prom date (apologies to the ladies on the forum)"

Guys like Dick and Rick can do 16-foot radius circle figure-8's without warming up (tighter on RT's or police motorcycles like the Harley Road King that are designed for such things--you should SEE these guys ride!), for the rest of us mere mortals, strive for accomplishing this within four parking lot slots, making your cross-over in the line between the four, turn your head earlier than you think you should, keep your eyes UP and looking where you want to end up, keep power to the rear wheel, and feather the rear brake, adjusting the amount of power to the rear (and thus your speed) by not "opening and closing your left hand" but rather thinking ""TIGHTENING and LOOSENING your left grip."

Practice a LOT in an area with no poles (as in light, not those from Poland) and cars, and if you find yourself stumbling, give a little more throttle and loosen your left grip a little to give more power to the rear wheel, letting the bike straighten itself up, ride it out, clear your head, and try it again.



Pete

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post #4 of 41 Old Dec 13th, 2006, 9:51 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefeb
1. I have his videos, and have been helped greatly by them.
2. Can you explain the difference between clutches, and how feathing affects each?

Thanks.
Steve,
A dry clutch is similar to your disk brakes; if you ride them they will heat up burn, glaze and fail prematurely (like coming down on a mountain!). Most trucks & auto’s use a dry clutch.
A lubricated (wet) clutch is designed to be immersed in lubricating oil (some via the engine oil (ie: Honda), some use dedicated oil (ie: Harley)) and runs cooler by design, . It can be abused just as a dry clutch but takes longer.

Feathering (gray area) a dry clutch for normal riding needs is never a problem. Caution and "running out" more often is called for while practicing on the dry clutch.

I practice the most on my HD, then it becomes easier on the LT.

I also think the DVD is a great instructional asset.

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post #5 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 6:07 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinJoe
Steve,
A dry clutch is similar to your disk brakes; if you ride them they will heat up burn, glaze and fail prematurely (like coming down on a mountain!). Most trucks & auto’s use a dry clutch.
A lubricated (wet) clutch is designed to be immersed in lubricating oil (some via the engine oil (ie: Honda), some use dedicated oil (ie: Harley)) and runs cooler by design, . It can be abused just as a dry clutch but takes longer.

Feathering (gray area) a dry clutch for normal riding needs is never a problem. Caution and "running out" more often is called for while practicing on the dry clutch.

I practice the most on my HD, then it becomes easier on the LT.

I also think the DVD is a great instructional asset.
Thanks for the info. Often heard the terms, but never knew exactly what was meant. Now I do.
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post #6 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 7:11 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
the partial engagement of the clutch is alternatively known as the "grey area" or "friction zone." Harley, BMW or whatever, it all works basically the same, but if you're going to do slow-speed stuff while "dragging the rear brake"--which should only be "feathered" lightly to control when you get moving too fast, as forum members and two of the best riders I've ever seen Dick Rothermel and Rick Humphries would say, the true control of a motorcycle in slow maneuvers is in the CLUTCH, not the brake or throttle, you need to be in the bottom of the friction zone.

Finding it?

In first gear, pull the clutch all the way in, throttle up to about 1,500 RPM or so, then gradually and incrementally let the clutch out (fractions of milimeters) until you get to the point that it is just beginning to engage and the motorcycle is starting to transfer power to the rear wheel. That would be the "bottom" of the grey area/friction zone. Everything from there until you are fully engaged constitutes the entire "zone" if you will.

Phrases like "you are too deep into the clutch" refer to when riders doing slow-riding techniques have way too much clutch engaged (or if this is confusing, "they have the lever too far out from the left handle") and are making up for it by putting too much pressure on the rear brake and also over-revving the enging...which with either a wet or dry clutch can lead to ROASTING the clutch...much quicker on our precious LT's.

MUCH better to be on the shallow end of the friction zone/grey area,but keep your rpms around 1,500 to maybe 2,000.

If you have the clutch lever half or 2/3 out (too much engaged), you're going to roast it, which will result in two things...a simply awful stench that, like a burning body you will never forget, and a repair bill that, like a burning body, you'll never forget...


As you practice this, start off in an unobstructed parking lot doing figure-8's, turning your head before you turn your motorcycle (the bike follows your head and eyes, remember) and as you become more comfortable, tighten the circles that make up the figure 8's.

To keep from becoming a member of the D.A. Club, remember the other mantra, as long as power is going to the rear wheel, the motorcycle WANTS to remain upright...if you suck in the clutch lever, that takes power away from the rear wheel, removing the gyroscopic forces that make the bike want to stay upright, and--as a former instructor/employee of mine used to say before he had to be let go, "you'll go down faster than his sister on his prom date (apologies to the ladies on the forum)"

Guys like Dick and Rick can do 16-foot radius circle figure-8's without warming up (tighter on RT's or police motorcycles like the Harley Road King that are designed for such things--you should SEE these guys ride!), for the rest of us mere mortals, strive for accomplishing this within four parking lot slots, making your cross-over in the line between the four, turn your head earlier than you think you should, keep your eyes UP and looking where you want to end up, keep power to the rear wheel, and feather the rear brake, adjusting the amount of power to the rear (and thus your speed) by not "opening and closing your left hand" but rather thinking ""TIGHTENING and LOOSENING your left grip."

Practice a LOT in an area with no poles (as in light, not those from Poland) and cars, and if you find yourself stumbling, give a little more throttle and loosen your left grip a little to give more power to the rear wheel, letting the bike straighten itself up, ride it out, clear your head, and try it again.



Pete
Very well spoken Peter, in fact I've saved it for future reference & pass outs!

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post #7 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 7:37 am
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To add to this, I explain the friction zone as such: When the lever is all the way in, think of that as "one". All the way out as "five". Somewhere between 2 and 4 is the friction zone. So as you ease out hte clutch, you slow down between 2 and 4 to get rolling. And learn where that friction zone is. That basic exercise in the MSF class where the students "rock" the bike is a great tool to use when getting on a new bike, or learing where the friction zone is. Muscle memory and fine motor skills improve with practice, so practice it. And remember when trying to learn these exercises, that practice doesn't necessarily make perfect, but practice does make permanent. So if you are practicing something "wrong"., then you will learn it that way and when you really need it, you may screw it up.

I have learned that on class bikes, one can do the u-turn box in 16-18 ft while looking down at the gas cap. BUT, when on the LT, that is impossible. I am still working my way down. I'm pretty good with the 24' box, but definitely need practice to get to the 20' or less space. I'll hopefully get there next year. If not, I'll just make sure I don;t get myself in that kinda space and try to do it. One thing to remember is that when you give a big head turn in this situation, it also turns your shoulders and arms in the direction of the turn, which is another reason for a BIG head turn. I bet most of you are trying this now. I did it as I wrote it. try it if you haven't and you are unsure of your head turning skills. Exaggerate them in practice. It will pay off.

the head turn, body movement (counterweighting), and brakes and clutch alll have to work together in slow speed stuff. And keeping in mind that the LT has the dry clutch and no need to over abuse it. I can turn around on my street (about one car on each side with room for another to pas between them), so I'm pretty comfortable with that. I've been told the LT can go to 18' or so with enough technique. Not sure I'll get there, but we'll see. LT is a far cry from my 600 shadow that I could lean in a slow speed u turn til I scaped the pegs.

My experience with brakes is that as long as you are gentle, the pedal seems to only use the rear, but I can't be for sure. I know that SMOOTH is the key to all motorcycle riding and especially on big bikes at slow speeds.

Cool thread. +1
randy
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post #8 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 9:31 am
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Darn Good explanations, except for this:

Quote:
------------remember the other mantra, as long as power is going to the rear wheel, the motorcycle WANTS to remain upright...if you suck in the clutch lever, that takes power away from the rear wheel, removing the gyroscopic forces that make the bike want to stay upright, ---------------
Pete
First, just having power going to the rear wheel does not necessarily mean the bike wants to stay up. The power has to be great enough to give the bike enough forward velocity to balance the gravity pulling the leaning bike down, too much power and you have to straighten out, too little and you fall down, or have to tighten up the turn.

Second, pulling in the clutch does not take away any gyroscopic forces that contribute to the bike's stability. When you pull in the clutch, the wheels are still turning at the speed they were before for as long as it takes frictional forces to slow the bike down. Second, at these slow speeds the gyroscopic forces due to the turning wheels is quite low anyway. Balancing is done almost totally by balancing the lean angle positioned center of gravity with the outward centrifugal forces caused by the bikes motion about the circle. At parking lot speeds, gyrospic forces are very small.

On bikes with transverse mounted engines and heavy crankshaft/flywheel assemblies, there is some stabilizing gyrospic forces developed by the spinning crank/flywheel assembly. However, there as absolutely NONE of that on the LT, as the crankshaft is in the longitudinal arrangement, and all gyrospic forces from it are in the wrong direction, plus the flywheel is turning the opposite direction effectively cancelling out even those forces.

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post #9 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 9:51 am
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David, I bow down to your engineering genius on every and any issue mechanical. Period.

Perhaps I mis-used the term gyroscopic forces there--whether it's that, or centrifugal resistance/force, or a combo i do know this...

At at slow speed (and I am talking 1-5 MPH), no matter the mounting angle or the engine configuration, if you don't have power to the rear wheel and you are leaned over (i.e. you "suck in the clutch" or pull the lever in) you WILL do some custom pinstriping on your motorcycle, regardless of the make or model.

I'd LOVE to put together an interactive DVD on these subjects with ya' sometime...we could have you in the main frame of the video with a whiteboard ala' Albert Einstein discussing coefficient of friction, center of gravity, and micrograms of nitrogen or something, and in a superimposed corner I could be there translating for the less knowledgeable with "If you suck in the clutch when you're in full lean at 3 mph in a slow parking lot maneuver, you'll tip over and make your bike go crrrrrrruuuuuuuunnnnnnnncccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhh h. Back to you, David!"


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post #10 of 41 Old Dec 14th, 2006, 3:23 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I just spoke with Jerry who made the above named video on slow speed handling. As many of you know this technique involves using only the rear brake and feathering or riding the clutch. According to him, at very slow speeds the computer on the 1200LT unlinks the brakes for the most part and it is predominantly the rear brake being used when you depress that pedal. He also said that feathering the clutch at slow speeds must be done with caution in the LT because it is a dry clutch as opposed to a lubricated clutch in the Harleys.
Billy: I have to disagree with Jerry on the unlinking of the LT's brakes at low speed, unless that occurs below 1-2 MPH! I typically practice low speed technique at this 1-2 mph range on a regular basis. ANYTHING more than a very light touch of the rear brake pedal starts to bring in some front, each and every time. Dick
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post #11 of 41 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 10:34 am
 
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I would also disagree with Jerry. I believe at any speed the linked brakes will engage. The only way to get around this is to not use the rear brake when doing slow speed maneuvers. Get proficient with good clutch and throttle control.
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post #12 of 41 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 1:12 pm
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I agree with Dick. Did some custom pin striping at Jerry's class in Tampa. Minimal rear brake brings in the front. Then you get the custom look.

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post #13 of 41 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 6:13 pm
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How much clutch?

Every time I read about this topic I wonder: How much lingering in the friction zone is too much? Obviously riding around town -- using normal shifting -- is not the issue. The issue (the one I'm wondering about) is: How much slow-speed parking lot practice can I do and not be concerned about roasting the clutch?

Is it time-related? (as in: 30 minutes of practice, then let it cool down)
Is it usage-related? (as in: do all the practice you want, but get out of the friction zone within X seconds every time you do it?)

Howard Schisler
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post #14 of 41 Old Dec 15th, 2006, 8:21 pm
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Howard, I spend an hour a month on a local parking lot. I find unless I'm doing lots of really tight turns, I spend hardly anytime in the friction zone. Also, when I'm doing full lock turns, I'm not riding the clutch or dragging the brake, but doing it all in second gear. The bike doesn't see to surge as much, of course that problem might be cured with the latest throttle cables installed since the I've got to really twist it to get it to respond.

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post #15 of 41 Old Dec 16th, 2006, 12:11 am
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The LT's brakes are not linked. They are Integrated; that is controlled via the Integral ABS unit according to the current conditions. Light, smooth application of the rear brake at low speed will not automatically engage the front brake. Heavier application will, as will higher speeds.

Also remember that the Telelever front suspension is very unforgiving at slow speeds. Any slight lean or loss of forward momentum can cause things to go downhill very quickly.

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post #16 of 41 Old Dec 16th, 2006, 10:04 am
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Slow Speed Control

OK, I HAVE to chime in on this one. Almost as much has been written about this subject as counter-steering. Simply put, we way over burden ourselves with information which leads to confusion and frustration. If you call it "friction zone" or "gray area" it's the same thing and no video is going to show how to find it. You simply have to get on a motorcycle you are not afraid of dropping and figure out where the grey area or friction zone is. Everyone has a different "feel" for this area or zone, as well as every bike is a little different feel for where it takes place.

There are six true components to slow speed control: Head and eyes (look where you want to go) that's two of them, throttle application that's 3rd, clutch input 4th and feathering of the rear brake is 5th. Within the last rear or so I have found a critical 6th area that I believe is worth teaching and that is riding posture on the motorcycle. Get as close to the gas tank as you can and stay STRIGHT in the seat, don't lean with the bike, but DO NOT counter lean! You can eliminate one area, rear brake and still do a pretty darn good tight turn IF you complete the other steps. The single greatest obstacle in this process is learning how to use the grey arear of the clutch, or friction zone, to your best benefit and you must find it on your motorcycle.

Regarding the LT brake, call them integrated or linked is splitting a fine hair. The front brake WILL come on if you get too far into the rear brake pedal. I have come to the point on my LT where I can almost "feel" that point in the rear brake pedal where the front brake starts to apply. Be careful though 'cause you definitely DO NOT want the front brake to come on in the middle of a tight turn.

The single greatest weak link on the BMW is the dry clutch. Most people in our schools take hours upon hours (days) to find a good working "grey area" for clutch application. A dry clutch just can't take this type of rough service without going south. So if you ride an LT, find yourself someone that will let you use a bike with a wet clutch to at least learn the basics about the "greay area" or "friction zone" for slow speed control. Then take what you have learned from that experience and apply it to your BMW. At $1500.00 for a clutch job I don't think you want to learn clutch control on an LT. Rick
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post #17 of 41 Old Dec 16th, 2006, 11:20 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric
OK, I HAVE to chime in on this one. Almost as much has been written about this subject as counter-steering. Simply put, we way over burden ourselves with information which leads to confusion and frustration. If you call it "friction zone" or "gray area" it's the same thing and no video is going to show how to find it. You simply have to get on a motorcycle you are not afraid of dropping and figure out where the grey area or friction zone is. Everyone has a different "feel" for this area or zone, as well as every bike is a little different feel for where it takes place...
Speaking only for myself: I know what the clutch is, I know where the clutch is, I know what the friction zone is, I was wondering how much time the clutch could spend in the friction zone, in low-speed maneuvers, before that was a problem.

Howard Schisler
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2009 BMW K1200LT - 60k miles
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2005 Honda Shadow 650 (sold)
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post #18 of 41 Old Dec 16th, 2006, 12:25 pm
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that's gonna' depend on how "deep into the clutch" you are, how many RPM's you're running, and how much you're compensating for those two errors by "dragging the rear" by rear braking, Howard.

To borrow from the rather ingenius analogy used by the forum member above, if you're at a "1" or barely enough clutch lever away from the left handle to transfer power, and aren't over-revving the engine (i.e. keeping it under 2,000 rpm) and using the rear brake very gently and sparingly, you should be able to spend LOTS of time (I'm tempted to say "half an hour or more" but I don't want to be responsible for the myriad of variables that might lead to you roasting your clutch and thus being presented with your replacement bill).

Use as little clutch as possible, feather the rear only when absolutely necessary, take the advice of Rick and Dick--both of whom have over a dozen years as police motorcycle officers and the same amount as police motorcyle INSTRUCTORS, each having taught literally THOUSANDS of cops--many with HORRIFIC riding habits that had to be broken first, and keep your head and eyes up and looking where you want to BE, and be conscious of your body position on the bike.

To be safe, spend ten mins doing the slow stuff at "1" and low but consistent RPM's--with an ultimate goal of not having to use the rear brake at all (there, those of you from the CHP school can be happy now), then do what is commonly referred to as a "breeze out" where you ride in second gear, clutch lever fully out, for ten minutes to let everything cool down including YOU, then get back into it.

If you are nervous about learning the slower stuff, look up the local eaglerider rental, spend the $100 for a day's rental of a road king or electraglide--complete with reduced-effort wet clutch, and as Rick said, beat it up for a day until you get a feel for using the bottom end of the "grey area/friction zone" until you go back to the more fragile dry clutch of your LT...

the $100 is a nice insurance policy against a $1,500 clutch job on your baby, plus it will make you appreciate what you ride daily that much more.

(if you are really nervous, remember that if you start to falter, don't "suck in the clutch," rather give MORE power to the rear wheel...remember you're going to do this in a WIDE OPEN parking lot...and you can get radiator hose, split it in half, and wrap it around the engine and saddlebag guards of the rented "training bike" you've acquired for added mental assurance)

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post #19 of 41 Old Dec 16th, 2006, 12:26 pm
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Friction Zone

OK, perhaps I was a little vague on this one. Just knowing "where" the friction zone is on a particular motorcycle is not enough. What MUST be found to get really good at this type of riding is YOUR specific working area contained within the entire grey area of clutch application. Remember, this point is different for almost everyone because you are also using the throttle and rear brake in conjuction with just the right amount of clutch input. Once I find my working grey area I am in tall cotton. Again, once you get good at this stuff you can use all three "tools", throttle, clutch and rear brake, in varying degrees to help make slow very tight turns. It isn't just knowing where the friction zone of the clutch is. Too much grey area and you fight controlling the bike in turns and too little grey area and you don't have the power to the rear wheel to keep pulling thru a turn. Some people just never grasp this concept and usually because they don't keep their rpm's in the ideal area of 1200 to 1400 and a fear of falling takes over.

Regarding how much of this type of use a dry clutch can take, I don't know. It all depends on how a person integrates the rear brake and how high the engine rpm is. If a person has high rpm's and stands on the rear brake for control I am sure they will need a clutch in a relatively short time frame. Rick
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post #20 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 11:40 am
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Great topic.

In motor school we or I teach no brake no clutch and all my students pass. You do not have to "beat" up your clutch. Use the clutch on the top side which is let the clutch all the way out or engage, and squeeze in, if you need it. Do you sometimes slip the clutch, sure if I am going for speed as in a rodeo, but most training days I try to be smooth, so it is no clutch no brakes. In parking lot turns most persons have problem in body positioning, head turns, keeping your elbow and knees in.
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post #21 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 11:51 am
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way cool...

if you're ever in the Dallas area, I'd love to get some tips from you, motorman, if you can teach me how to run a 180-decel (hard braking followed by a series of 90-degree turns and a 180-degree turn that on a road king requires perfect wheel placement, almost full steering lock, and often a "tickle" of the floorboard) or the "snowman" (three connected 360-degree circles with tighter diameters, 16, 15 and I believe 14') without partial engagement of the clutch, I wouldn't stop smiling for a month!


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post #22 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 4:19 pm
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I have been thinking maybe making a short video on my camera, and e-mail folks that wish it. And the snowman is really 18 foot circle, 19 and 20. In the official motor course the smallest circle is 18 foot, which I do not think an LT will do. I was out doing circles today, to see if there is a better way to explain. Again I was scraping the footpegs in a tight turn by clutch only, no brake. I just slip the clutch out. Adding rear brake is just bad for the clutch, too much friction. Too really scap the pegs I had do some major counter balacing, felt like I was riding on top of the bike, but I scaped, both sides.

Last edited by motorman587; Dec 17th, 2006 at 4:22 pm. Reason: added some more info
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post #23 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 6:41 pm
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do h-d's have wet clutches now? twins had dry clutches for many years. i know because when they'd get a little oil on the plates many of us used to soak the fiber plates in mineral spirits let them dry for awhile (maybe a couple of hours) then put them in the oven at about 200 to 250 degrees f for a couple of hours and let them cool. the next step was to break any glaze on them by rubbing them vigorously on clean concrete and put it back together. the recent h-d's i've seen haven't appeared any different to me. it does seem that maybe sportsters might have had oil in the primary case so they could have been wet plates. omurphy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I just spoke with Jerry who made the above named video on slow speed handling. As many of you know this technique involves using only the rear brake and feathering or riding the clutch. According to him, at very slow speeds the computer on the 1200LT unlinks the brakes for the most part and it is predominantly the rear brake being used when you depress that pedal. He also said that feathering the clutch at slow speeds must be done with caution in the LT because it is a dry clutch as opposed to a lubricated clutch in the Harleys.

Last edited by omurphy; Dec 17th, 2006 at 6:45 pm. Reason: spelling and content
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post #24 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 10:03 pm
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Motor,

I'm confused, in your first post you said "no brakes, no clutch" which is why I said "oooh, teach me!!!"

and murph, HD's have used wet clutches for a long, long time.

Although if you bake them at 350 for 20 minutes with a pinch of baking soda, flour, and chocolate chips, they make a decent cookie...

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post #25 of 41 Old Dec 17th, 2006, 10:28 pm
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no i asked did they have wet clutches now. billy the original poster of this thread quoted jerry p. either correctly or incorrectly that harleys have wet clutches. look at post # 23 and post number one. the plates do make good cookies but you have to bake them much longer and at a much higher temperature and it'll still taste just a little bit like mineral spirits and oil. omurphy
Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
Motor,

I'm confused, in your first post you said "no brakes, no clutch" which is why I said "oooh, teach me!!!"

and murph, HD's have used wet clutches for a long, long time.

Although if you bake them at 350 for 20 minutes with a pinch of baking soda, flour, and chocolate chips, they make a decent cookie...

Last edited by omurphy; Dec 17th, 2006 at 10:46 pm. Reason: to add to comments
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post #26 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 7:08 am
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Ride Like a Pro

Don't you think the power assisted brakes on the LT have a little less feel than the ones without? That is a real problem when trying to modulate the rear brake.

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post #27 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 7:30 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraLT
Don't you think the power assisted brakes on the LT have a little less feel than the ones without? That is a real problem when trying to modulate the rear brake.

Ultra LT

No not at all, not if your used to your brakes

I ride power assisted and non Assisted bikes regularly now and have no problem whatsoever with the feel of either brakes

as far as the Lt integrated brakes, (depending on year of bike -mine is a '02) you can slide the rear tire in gravel without the front stopping and same goes with the front although it seems to be harder to get the front tire to slide in gravel before the rear applies

If you are good with a clutch you Will not burn up your dry LT clutch in short time, heck I practice quite often on mine and there is about 80-84k miles on this clutch now (last one was replaced at about 50k miles due to a rear engine seal leak) that or maybe I'm just used to the feel of dry clutches riding the Harley's all those years


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post #28 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 7:47 am
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When we had HD you could slip the clutch alot, but we burned up some clutches too. Vs. on our BMW on my second clutch after 36000, plus some rodeos under the belt. Rodeo not good for clutches. That is why we went to no clutch no brake training to save the clutches.

I ditto TMGS about the brakes. I feel no difference in the front vs. rear or both. Both my RTP and LT only do the rear vs. my RTP does both with the front lever. I use to have 02 RT and did not have a problem with slow turns etc......... I think for most riders it is a mental thing for them.

Last edited by motorman587; Dec 18th, 2006 at 7:48 am. Reason: spelling error
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post #29 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 7:51 am
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What I find quite interesting is that no one has yet called out (maybe they have in other threads - if so, I apologize) BMW on this.

Why would a company that is know for it's enginering prowess continue to build motorcycles with the aging dry clutch design?

As someone who has taken the MSF's BRC and ERC courses, and with years on non-BMW's, I am a friction zone junkie. The idea that I might have to "baby" the clutch on my $22K LT is rather annoying.

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post #30 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 10:02 am
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Slow Riding Techniques

As I said earlier, this is one of those subjects that has tons written on it yet everyone misses the point. In the police world or civilian world of motorcycle riding you have THREE tools at your disposal for COMPLETE motorcycle control at slow speeds. They are the clutch, the throttle and the rear brake, plus head, eyes and body posture of course, but that's a different subject. I am talking TOTAL control now. Leave one of those three out and you are asking for trouble. If you take your BMW to the dealership for repair and the mechanic needs 3 special tools to complete the work on your bike, but he only has two of them, would you want him to work on your bike? Obviously not, you would want him to have all three tools to properly complete the work and not just "wing it" without the third tool. Same for slow speed motocycle control. On a BMW I will agree that you can leave the clutch fully engaged and run with no rear brake and you will make most of the required turns in a police class. However, if you want to truly stay on top of your game and if you are going to push the BMW to its turning radius limit you are missing the point if you don't FEATHER the clutch and FEATHER the rear brake. Now once in a great while there are those M/C riders that are truly gifted and can operate a motor without rear brake and by leaving the clutch fully engaged, but they are not the norm. Again remember this statement is based on pushing a motorcycle to its turning limits as in making a 16 or 17 foot turn on a Harley-Davidson. I have no idea what the limit is on a BMW police bike, but I suspect it would be in the 14 to 16 foot limit same as the old Harley Dyna police bike. Also, remember the BMW police bike engine is a whole different animal at low speeds when compared to a Harley. The BMW will run smooth almost all the way to where it quits, but a Harley will not do that, it begins to chug and lurch at bottom end rpm before it stops running. Then we can add in stuff like cutting fork stops to make tighter turns, which cops do alot, and that changes everything. So here is my take, use all three mechanical tools at your disposal, clutch, rear brake and throttle (1200 rpm or so). Learn how to FEATHER the clutch and rear brake so you don't burn them out and you will be much more proficient at slow speed M/C riding. Rick
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post #31 of 41 Old Dec 18th, 2006, 10:30 pm
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wonderin' what year RTP you have that has linked/integrated brakes...my '00 had that "benefit" deliberately disabled for police use---could stomp all day on the rear and not affect the front at all, when did BMW switch back on the RT models for police?

And Rick, frankly you're a Cheesehead weenie, I stopped all of that "clutch, throttle, brake" stuff alltogether, and now just run the nine basic motor cone exercises on one wheel, saves the clutch, keeps my "company mechanic" from bitching about squealing brake pads, and you should see my turning radius.
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post #32 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 12:23 am
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Great info here. I have found that my years dirt riding has taught me these basics. You also learn to become smooth with the clutch, throttle and brakes and that balance and body position makes the bike do wonderful things. You also learn to expect things so you are ready and don't just react. I don't use the same body position on my LT as I would on my dirt bike but I understand it. Then when I listen to an instructor it makes sense and I can apply it and see or feel the results. When I find myself in trouble on the LT it is always because I have attempted to do something without it being linked to the next action. When I turn my head to look down the road I am really starting a small string of actions that have to be smoothly linked togather and practiced before hand otherwise I just end up with a sore neck and a scratched bike. Practice don't make perfect, only perfect practice does. I am always learning and will practice some of the things discussed here on tomorrows ride! Thanks.

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post #33 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 6:57 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevandyke
I stopped all of that "clutch, throttle, brake" stuff alltogether, and now just run the nine basic motor cone exercises on one wheel, saves the clutch, keeps my "company mechanic" from bitching about squealing brake pads, and you should see my turning radius.
Dag Nab It Pete!
No matter how hard I try I can't get my LT to stay up on one wheel!

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post #34 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 2:34 pm
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Try it with the other wheel.

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post #35 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 2:54 pm
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Have read all the post and am now envious, have searched the web for a supplier of the "Ride Like a Pro DVD-Jerry Palladino" on this side of the pond, cant find one, even those on the US side dont post to UK.
Is it as good as it sounds from everyone's comments?
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post #36 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 3:11 pm
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Have read all the post and am now envious, have searched the web for a supplier of the "Ride Like a Pro DVD-Jerry Palladino" on this side of the pond, cant find one, even those on the US side dont post to UK.
Is it as good as it sounds from everyone's comments?
Here is the web, I think it is worth every cent!

http://www.ridelikeapro.com/NewOrderOptions.htm

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post #37 of 41 Old Dec 19th, 2006, 3:20 pm
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Thanks for the link.
I will ring them in the morning.....too late to order in time for a christmas present to myself...but I am sure it will be worth the wait.

Have had the LT for 7 months after a Triumph Trophy 1200...the weight concerned me a little at first but what a bike, definately the best change I have made.
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post #38 of 41 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 6:28 am
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Thanks for the link.
I will ring them in the morning.....too late to order in time for a christmas present to myself...but I am sure it will be worth the wait.

Have had the LT for 7 months after a Triumph Trophy 1200...the weight concerned me a little at first but what a bike, definately the best change I have made.
BTW mention you saw it in Rider magazine and you'll get 10 bucks or so off.

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post #39 of 41 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 11:30 am
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BTW mention you saw it in Rider magazine and you'll get 10 bucks or so off.
Thanks but rang them before seeing your post. They were very helpful and will be posting it out to me today.
Thanks for help and link
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post #40 of 41 Old Dec 20th, 2006, 12:36 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinJoe
Dag Nab It Pete!
No matter how hard I try I can't get my LT to stay up on one wheel!


I had that problem too, turned out to be completely mental...I solved it by removing the front axel and brakes, so that as soon as I got her front end up, the wheel rolled away, and I HAD to keep the front end in the air...after you overcome that mental block, it's really a piece of cake.

Did I mention I had spinal surgery last week?

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lalalalalalalalalalalala........

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post #41 of 41 Old Dec 21st, 2006, 8:10 am
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Did I mention I had spinal surgery last week?

Ooooh, look at the pretty colors.

When I press here I can taste vanilla ice cream......


lalalalalalalalalalalala........
Now that's funny! Heal well.

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