Front brakes hanging - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 6:42 am Thread Starter
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Front brakes hanging

I am helping a friend with a 2000 k1200lt, 28,000 miles
.
His front brakes are hanging up (not releasing), Both front calipers, both rotors get hot.

we changed the front brake lines with spiegler stainless steel lines, cleaned the calipers with 1/2 can brake cleaner, and installed new pads.

no change.

I can compress the pistons in the caliper and send the brake fluid back to the master.

Any ideas
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post #2 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 6:57 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

did you change the all the lines or just the ones at the fork to the each side? change them all if not,

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post #3 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 7:07 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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did you change the all the lines or just the ones at the fork to the each side? change them all if not,
changed all the front lines. haven't changed the rear yet.
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post #4 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 2:25 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Could it be that the disk bobbins are not floating as they should be?

Even so, the pads should move back so they don't touch the disk.

I would lift the front of the bike and spin the wheel to see what is making contact, applying and releasing the brake to see if the calipers were releasing.

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post #5 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 5:01 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

How hot are they getting? Smoking RED hot?

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post #6 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 5:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
How hot are they getting? Smoking RED hot?
3 block ride using the brakes
Not using the brakes on the return
and I couldn't hold the disk's

I think if he rode it the disks would get red hot

Last edited by red85k100rs; Jul 23rd, 2017 at 5:52 pm. Reason: more info
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post #7 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 6:05 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
3 block ride using the brakes
Not using the brakes on the return
and I couldn't hold the disk's

I think if he rode it the disks would get red hot
I would not be placing my hands on any brake parts after riding. You installed new pads so they need to bed in properly. The surface is still not matched to the wear on the rotors from the previous pads so there could be some slight drag from the surfaces not mating up yet.

Visually verify that the rotors are pretty much centered in the calipers indicating the wheel is probably installed correctly and take it for a ride. Get it up to speed and hit the front brakes hard a few times. If you feel the brakes release, they probably just need to bed in. Brake parts get really hot really fast. 3 blocks is not enough time for them to cool down especially if you are going to put your hands on them. Not sure there actually is a problem. If you can place it on the CS after that and the front wheel rotates freely, I would say you are good to go. If it is binding however, there could be a caliper issue.

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post #8 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 8:17 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

i would flush the front calipers - if they had not been done the residue in the caliper bottoms will make them stick
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post #9 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 8:53 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Quote:
Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
I am helping a friend with a 2000 k1200lt, 28,000 miles
.
His front brakes are hanging up (not releasing), Both front calipers, both rotors get hot.

we changed the front brake lines with spiegler stainless steel lines, cleaned the calipers with 1/2 can brake cleaner, and installed new pads.

no change.

I can compress the pistons in the caliper and send the brake fluid back to the master.

Any ideas
I am not clear on the sequence above. Were the front calipers hanging up before the installation of the Spieglers and cleaning of the calipers? Or did they start acting this way after the work above was done?
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post #10 of 45 Old Jul 23rd, 2017, 11:30 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I am not clear on the sequence above. Were the front calipers hanging up before the installation of the Spieglers and cleaning of the calipers? Or did they start acting this way after the work above was done?
I'm with Voyager here, and Gordon above. Are the brakes slowing the bike down with no pressure on the handle or pedal? Or are they just hot after a short ride?

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post #11 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 5:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I am not clear on the sequence above. Were the front calipers hanging up before the installation of the Spieglers and cleaning of the calipers? Or did they start acting this way after the work above was done?
The front brakes were hanging before, thats reason for the brake line change.
After a short ride, lift the front wheel and the spin the wheel. You can tell the brakes are on.
Open the bleeders and the wheel spins freely
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post #12 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:05 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Mark65 View Post
I'm with Voyager here, and Gordon above. Are the brakes slowing the bike down with no pressure on the handle or pedal? Or are they just hot after a short ride?

Mark

Yes the brakes slowing the bike down with no pressure on the handle
when used enough they will eventually stop the bike so I could not push it, 100hp can make it move.up. open the bleeder and all free.
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post #13 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:07 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Tricky_dickey View Post
i would flush the front calipers - if they had not been done the residue in the caliper bottoms will make them stick
they got flushed when the new lines were installed.
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post #14 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:44 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
I would not be placing my hands on any brake parts after riding. You installed new pads so they need to bed in properly. The surface is still not matched to the wear on the rotors from the previous pads so there could be some slight drag from the surfaces not mating up yet.

Visually verify that the rotors are pretty much centered in the calipers indicating the wheel is probably installed correctly and take it for a ride. Get it up to speed and hit the front brakes hard a few times. If you feel the brakes release, they probably just need to bed in. Brake parts get really hot really fast. 3 blocks is not enough time for them to cool down especially if you are going to put your hands on them. Not sure there actually is a problem. If you can place it on the CS after that and the front wheel rotates freely, I would say you are good to go. If it is binding however, there could be a caliper issue.
After a "short ride" (a mile or two) with heavy front braking, put the bike on the center stand lift the front wheel off the ground, spin the front wheel. very hard to spin. Not slight drag

I put my lt on its center stand put my hand on the tire and give it a spin. It will make several revolutions. I put his on the center stand you have to grab the tire to get it to spin and it won't make a complete revolution. We spun the wheel with no calipers and the wheel free spins.


I had a snowmobile the the brake would not release. Cursing @ 80 I smell something burning. I stopped, opened the hood to see glowing, red hot and fire on the rotor. The fuel tank was only inches away. This feels like the same thing
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post #15 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:51 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Quote:
Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
I am helping a friend with a 2000 k1200lt, 28,000 miles
.
His front brakes are hanging up (not releasing), Both front calipers, both rotors get hot.

we changed the front brake lines with spiegler stainless steel lines, cleaned the calipers with 1/2 can brake cleaner, and installed new pads.

no change.

I can compress the pistons in the caliper and send the brake fluid back to the master.

Any ideas
Did your friend previously clean the calipers with brake cleaner? This is a very bad practice and can deteriorate the piston seals.

Did the problem arise gradually or come on all at once?

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post #16 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Thanks for all the help!
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post #17 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 6:57 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Did your friend previously clean the calipers with brake cleaner? This is a very bad practice and can deteriorate the piston seals.

Did the problem arise gradually or come on all at once?
He bought the bike in early may 2017. Hasn't put 2k miles on it.
all seamed to be fine until one day.
You could push the bike around in the garage. When the brake are hung it is very hard to push.
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post #18 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 7:00 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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He bought the bike in early may 2017. Hasn't put 2k miles on it.
all seamed to be fine until one day.
You could push the bike around in the garage. When the brake are hung it is very hard to push.
Did he do any work on the bike prior to this happening?

Spray brake cleaner on the calipers?

Wash it with a pressure washer?

Add or change brake fluid?

Do both calipers drag or just one side?

Any work on or around the brakes?

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post #19 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 7:10 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Did he do any work on the bike prior to this happening?

Spray brake cleaner on the calipers?

Wash it with a pressure washer?

Add or change brake fluid?

Any work on or around the brakes?
He did no work, no pressure washing altho he is a little OCD when it comes to cleaning.
When we put the new ss brake lines the front got a fluid change, but the brakes were hanging. They were original and needed to be replaced anyway and was hoping the problem was crap in the lines. but it had had no change.

Brake clean once when the new pads went on. The old pads hung up just the same as the new pads.
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post #20 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 7:50 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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He did no work, no pressure washing altho he is a little OCD when it comes to cleaning.
When we put the new ss brake lines the front got a fluid change, but the brakes were hanging. They were original and needed to be replaced anyway and was hoping the problem was crap in the lines. but it had had no change.

Brake clean once when the new pads went on. The old pads hung up just the same as the new pads.
You are sure he hasn't been cleaning the calipers with brake cleaner as part of his OCD nature?

You say "pads" are hanging. Do you really mean the pads are binding in the calipers rather than the pistons binding in their bores?

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post #21 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 7:56 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

probably the hose up to the handle bar brake m/cyl, but you haven't actually said which hoses were replaced other than "front", so just guessing, have you replaced all the brake lines if not then I suggest you should, as the symptom you are describing is indicative of internal hose failure.

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post #22 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 8:05 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
He did no work, no pressure washing altho he is a little OCD when it comes to cleaning.
When we put the new ss brake lines the front got a fluid change, but the brakes were hanging. They were original and needed to be replaced anyway and was hoping the problem was crap in the lines. but it had had no change.

Brake clean once when the new pads went on. The old pads hung up just the same as the new pads.
Are these the BMW Toiko callipers?
If they are then they will need a rebuild if the pads don't release.
what happens is water gets behind the top seal and corrosion takes place and pushes the seal out of position.
You need to remove the pistons and clean the grove where the seal sits it will be hard calcified alloy. Then replace the seals. Why the callipers were not anodised i do not known. Use red rubber grease on re assemble and behind the pads to stop the water ingress not copper slip.
I had this happen last year.
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post #23 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 8:21 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
You are sure he hasn't been cleaning the calipers with brake cleaner as part of his OCD nature?

You say "pads" are hanging. Do you really mean the pads are binding in the calipers rather than the pistons binding in their bores?
He never used brake clean b4 we put the new pads on, I did when installing new pads.
The pads remain tight on the disk, just like when your lightly using the brake.
Loosen the bleeder and they free up.
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post #24 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 8:26 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by peterj View Post
Are these the BMW Toiko callipers?
If they are then they will need a rebuild if the pads don't release.
what happens is water gets behind the top seal and corrosion takes place and pushes the seal out of position.
You need to remove the pistons and clean the grove where the seal sits it will be hard calcified alloy. Then replace the seals. Why the callipers were not anodised i do not known. Use red rubber grease on re assemble and behind the pads to stop the water ingress not copper slip.
I had this happen last year.
What are Toiko callipers?
They are stock brembo year 2000
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post #25 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 8:49 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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probably the hose up to the handle bar brake m/cyl, but you haven't actually said which hoses were replaced other than "front", so just guessing, have you replaced all the brake lines if not then I suggest you should, as the symptom you are describing is indicative of internal hose failure.
That is a good point. When I heard that the front brake lines had been replaced, I assumed it was all of the lines from master cylinder to calipers. If all lines were not replaced, that would be my next step as this does sound like a line with a bad inner lining that is flapping like a one way valve.

I had ruled that out when I read that front lines were replaced and also the mention that fluid could be pushed upwards into the master cylinder.

I think we need a more detailed description as to exactly which parts were replaced.

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post #26 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 9:02 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

There is a good chance that the new pads need to be modified to fit properly. Where the top of the pad touches the caliper may need to be ground down a little. The pads should be able to move freely side to side in the caliper with the pin inserted. If you don't make sure the fit has enough clearance, they will bind and not " float" On some brake implementations, the entire caliper floats but since these calipers are fixed, the pads need to float instead. If the bind at the top, you will have the issue you are describing. See the attached pic for where to grind or file off to provide adequate clearance for floating. Make sure you didn't bend the pin when you put it in as the pads need to float on that also. The pin can be straightened with a hammer on a flat surface tapping lightly and rolling it.
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post #27 of 45 Old Jul 24th, 2017, 5:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
That is a good point. When I heard that the front brake lines had been replaced, I assumed it was all of the lines from master cylinder to calipers. If all lines were not replaced, that would be my next step as this does sound like a line with a bad inner lining that is flapping like a one way valve.

I had ruled that out when I read that front lines were replaced and also the mention that fluid could be pushed upwards into the master cylinder.

I think we need a more detailed description as to exactly which parts were replaced.
All the front lines were changed. 4 pieces.
Rear brake lines have not been replaced yet.
EBC sintered pads
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post #28 of 45 Old Jul 25th, 2017, 11:53 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

I read all the posts in this thread and no one mentioned grease. After cleaning the calipers with brake clean did you lubricate the caliper pistons, pins & bushings and the new pad backs & tabs with brake grease?
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post #29 of 45 Old Jul 25th, 2017, 1:19 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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I read all the posts in this thread and no one mentioned grease. After cleaning the calipers with brake clean did you lubricate the caliper pistons, pins & bushings and the new pad backs & tabs with brake grease?
There should be no grease applied to any of these brake parts. Unlike automotive calipers that float on greased pins, these are fixed calipers and the only thing that floats are the pads themselves and I want no grease anywhere near my brake pads.

I have already mentioned where some new pads hang but let me state it again. If there is inadequate clearance at the top of the pad where it interfaces with the caliper, it can bind there causing the pad to try and move out at an angle, not flat out for contact with the rotor. Normal retraction is also hampered by the same issue so the pad backing needs to be fitted to the caliper by removing some material where it interfaces so it can move freely back and forth. Failure to do this if required can cause the issue being described here but applying grease is not an answer in this case.

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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #30 of 45 Old Jul 25th, 2017, 4:41 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

I had this happen on an old Goldwing. The front rotors got red hot just riding it. It was something blocking the return hole in the bottom of the master cylinder reservoir. There is a TEENY TINY hole in there for the brake fluid return so the brakes dont hang up on the rotors. I used a very tiny piece of steel wire and cleared the blockage - good as new afterwards.
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post #31 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 7:42 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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There should be no grease applied to any of these brake parts. Unlike automotive calipers that float on greased pins, these are fixed calipers and the only thing that floats are the pads themselves and I want no grease anywhere near my brake pads.

I have already mentioned where some new pads hang but let me state it again. If there is inadequate clearance at the top of the pad where it interfaces with the caliper, it can bind there causing the pad to try and move out at an angle, not flat out for contact with the rotor. Normal retraction is also hampered by the same issue so the pad backing needs to be fitted to the caliper by removing some material where it interfaces so it can move freely back and forth. Failure to do this if required can cause the issue being described here but applying grease is not an answer in this case.
Thanks everyone

I an going to his house tonight, going to pull the pads and check/file the pads as recommended.
I will let you know.
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post #32 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 12:28 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
Thanks everyone

I an going to his house tonight, going to pull the pads and check/file the pads as recommended.
I will let you know.
They should be able to slide freely back and forth maintaining them in proper relation to the caliper and rotor all the way across and back with a "straight" pin installed. There will be slight drag due to the anti rattle spring. Often, the pin gets bent trying to force it in without a straight path end to end.

Let us know what you find.

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post #33 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 5:41 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

If working on the front brake pads does not fix the issue, I am with DeusExMaxima on this one, that it is the master cylinder that is plugged.

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post #34 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 6:30 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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If working on the front brake pads does not fix the issue, I am with DeusExMaxima on this one, that it is the master cylinder that is plugged.
If the pads already have proper clearance or fitting them doesn't fix it, then I also am with you but in the OP original post, he said he could compress the pistons and force fluid back into the reservoir so the lines or replenish hole are not blocked at least in that respect.

Gordon
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1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #35 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 7:33 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

before you go filing anything, hold them back to back with the old pads to compare any differences.

Regards Linton
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post #36 of 45 Old Jul 26th, 2017, 9:18 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by Axle View Post
before you go filing anything, hold them back to back with the old pads to compare any differences.
It is easy enough to put the pin in with each pad and see how it moves. If the pin doesn't go in easily, then the pad backing needs to be adjusted. Not an uncommon problem.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #37 of 45 Old Jul 27th, 2017, 10:41 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Late question / comment to this thread:

When you "flushed" the high pressure system did you remove the brake pads and place spacer blocks in their place to ensure that pucks were fully depressed outwards to ensure all the debris around the pucks would be flushed?

17 year old bike with rubber parts in brake fluid - I would think the problem is seal integrity on the pucks and debris in the area.

I would take the brakes off an service them with inspection and repair.

My 2 cents . . .
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post #38 of 45 Old Jul 28th, 2017, 8:38 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

The piston in the master cylinder may not be releasing all the way and blocking fluid return. I suspect this since you say the bleed nipple will relieve the issue. Open the reservoir and cycle the lever (protect your painted surfaces with a large plastic bag). You should see a little squirt from the vent hole just as you start to squeeze the lever. If you don't then the piston is no reaching the release area.
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post #39 of 45 Old Jul 28th, 2017, 9:59 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
The piston in the master cylinder may not be releasing all the way and blocking fluid return. I suspect this since you say the bleed nipple will relieve the issue. Open the reservoir and cycle the lever (protect your painted surfaces with a large plastic bag). You should see a little squirt from the vent hole just as you start to squeeze the lever. If you don't then the piston is no reaching the release area.
Leave it to John to catch the things I miss

First post said pistons could be compressed. Missed the part about the bleed nipple. Check to see if someone adjusted the screw in the brake lever to try and get a faster response on the front brakes. Same as the rear, if it is adjusted too far, it blocks the return/replenish hole. Mine is set with a red loctite so if you find it has been adjusted improperly, you may have to heat it to back it out some. If removing the lever releases the pressure, I would start there.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #40 of 45 Old Jul 30th, 2017, 6:27 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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before you go filing anything, hold them back to back with the old pads to compare any differences.
the brakes had the same problem with the old pads.
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post #41 of 45 Old Jul 30th, 2017, 6:34 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
The piston in the master cylinder may not be releasing all the way and blocking fluid return. I suspect this since you say the bleed nipple will relieve the issue. Open the reservoir and cycle the lever (protect your painted surfaces with a large plastic bag). You should see a little squirt from the vent hole just as you start to squeeze the lever. If you don't then the piston is no reaching the release area.
I have done that and I do indeed get that little squirt.
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post #42 of 45 Old Jul 30th, 2017, 9:52 am
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Since opening the bleed valves releases the brakes, I would start there and work backwards toward the master.

I would check that both bleeders release both brakes. I would then hang them up again and crack the banjos on each caliper to ensure that releases the pressure. Then repeat at the splitter on the fork and work upwards connection by connection to the banjo on the master cylinder. This will be a little messy and you will want lots of shop towels and some wet rags to quickly clean and dry after each leak.

If the pressure releases all the way to the banjo on the master cylinder then you know the issue is in the master cylinder or the banjo bolt.

Did you use the original banjo bolts or did you buy the spiegler lines through STG and use their color matched bolts? I ask as I believe the OEM master cylinder banjo had a small screen built into it whereas the STG bolt did not. I suppose that screen might be restricted.

What baffles me is you said you could push fluid back into the master cylinder. That is simply not consistent with the other symptoms unless you were applying a lot of force to push the fluid back. The wheel caliper pistons will be unable to provide much force so if there is a restriction that might explain it.
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post #43 of 45 Old Aug 14th, 2017, 7:35 am Thread Starter
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Re: Front brakes hanging

My buddy fixed his brakes.
We worked on it, and worked on it, I went over to help install new calipers.
When I got there he had a 15 Victory. He traded in the LT. All fixed
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post #44 of 45 Old Aug 14th, 2017, 8:01 am
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Re: Front brakes hanging

Seems a bit extreme to me for a brake issue fix but whatever.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #45 of 45 Old Aug 14th, 2017, 2:43 pm
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Re: Front brakes hanging

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
My buddy fixed his brakes.
We worked on it, and worked on it, I went over to help install new calipers.
When I got there he had a 15 Victory. He traded in the LT. All fixed
Sounds like he was a closet V-twin man all along. He does know that Victory is defunct and parts and service will soon get scarce since it was a low volume niche brand, right?

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