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post #1 of 20 Old Nov 23rd, 2006, 12:05 am Thread Starter
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Red face Valve Adjustment

Anyone got a picture showing the intake cam lobe orientation when #1 piston is at TDC and the cams are in the factory installation position (notches facing crankshaft)? I just did my first valve lash adjustment (changed four buckets at 60K mikes). I'm pretty positive I've got the cams correct since I ty-wrapped the chain and gears together and the cams were re-installed per the manual. But after after rechecking the valve lash (all were OK) I noted that the intake valve lobes closed the intake valves very late. In fact, the piston is on its way down from TDC before the lobe heal is centered on the intake valve bucket. Somewhere in the back of my mind I can't shake the feeling this is wrong. The engine rolls through cleanly with no valve/piston kissing and the cam notches face the crank at TDC as the manual states. Guess I'm just paranoid because of the cam lobe location? Sure don't want to light the fire to engine if I've missed something. Thoughts?
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post #2 of 20 Old Nov 23rd, 2006, 1:40 am
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post #3 of 20 Old Nov 23rd, 2006, 11:48 am Thread Starter
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Deacon,

Thanks for the link. Been there, done that (used as a basis for my valve adjustment). Everything jives with the gunsmoke info. But he's got no visual of the intake lobes on #1 when at TDC. I'm really looking for a visual confirmation from someone. I can't believe the chain slipped a tooth or that I've done anything wrong. Self doubt I guess. But you only get one chance on a thing like this, so I'm trying to find a photo of the #1 lobe position when at TDC on a bike known to be correct. Thanks again for the link.
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post #4 of 20 Old Nov 23rd, 2006, 12:48 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old1951
Deacon,

Thanks for the link. Been there, done that (used as a basis for my valve adjustment). Everything jives with the gunsmoke info. But he's got no visual of the intake lobes on #1 when at TDC. I'm really looking for a visual confirmation from someone. I can't believe the chain slipped a tooth or that I've done anything wrong. Self doubt I guess. But you only get one chance on a thing like this, so I'm trying to find a photo of the #1 lobe position when at TDC on a bike known to be correct. Thanks again for the link.
I am pretty sure that at TDC the cam lobes are both pointing out, at about the same angle from cylinder centerline, intake down about 20 deg., exhaust up about 20 deg.

edited: In any case, if the slots on the rear of the cams are both perpindicular to the head surface at #1 TDC, it is correct.

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post #5 of 20 Old Nov 23rd, 2006, 11:15 pm Thread Starter
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David,

Thanks for your input. I value your experience immensely. I agree with you. I'd expect the cam lobes to point away from the valve and have the lobe heels approximately centered on the lash caps. But when my cams have the end grooves parallel with the piston travel (like the manual states when using the BMW cam alignment tool) the #1 intake cam lobes appear to be 90 degrees from this position (thats what bothers me). I guess for safety I'm going to have to tear it back down and re-check things???? The problem is; now I'm not sure what the original position looked like and that's why I was hoping to find someone with a photo to check against.

The part that bothers me most about this whole thing is that it should not matter what position the engines in when you take it apart as long as the crank is not moved and the cam gears/cams are re-installed in the same orientation as the were removed in. My cam gears were both positioned with the tear drop shaped holes in the gears facing up and divided by the head/valve cover split line (as seen in the shop manual diagrams). This puts the cam gear slots in the cams and gear pins facing the crankshaft (again this agrees with the shop manual). When the cams are in this position the opposite end slots are parallel with the piston travel line ( again this agrees with the use of the BMW cam holding fixture). Since the gears were ty-wrapped to the chain and the crank never moved, I can't imagine how I could have it 90 degrees out? If the cam chain slipped on the crank a tooth I could understand having it of one tooth out, but not 90 degrees.

At this point I totally frustrated and have begun to doubt my years of engine building experience. It's very frustration not having easy access to the crank gear. In a V-8 I'd throw a degree wheel on the crank and degree in the cam.
But here, I can't do that. Maybe I'm over thinking this issue, but a bent valve can prove to be fatal.

Clarify something for me, your saying the cam grooves in the cam ends opposite the cam gears are suppose to be vertical (parallel with the valve cover/head splitline? The BMW shop manual say they are supposed to be horizontal (in line with piston travel)?? This is how the BMW cam holding tool holds them. Maybe this is where I'm screwed up?

Maybe I should throw the manual away and go back to my Engines 101 experience. Just get #1 at TDC and position the intake and exhaust lobes so the lobe heels are centered over the valve cap and in line with the valves.

Sorry to vent! I'm not vent on you, its just my frustration over something that aint that complex, but has me questioning weather the sun will rise in the east.

Again, thanks in advance for the answers to some of the above questions and for taking your time reply.

Vern Shrader
Old1951
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post #6 of 20 Old Nov 24th, 2006, 12:45 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old1951
David,

Thanks for your input. I value your experience immensely. I agree with you. I'd expect the cam lobes to point away from the valve and have the lobe heels approximately centered on the lash caps. But when my cams have the end grooves parallel with the piston travel (like the manual states when using the BMW cam alignment tool) the #1 intake cam lobes appear to be 90 degrees from this position (thats what bothers me).
In thinking about it, I cannot remember exactly where the lobes were at TDC, I just remember that I positioned them that way checking the valves. In thinking it through, at BDC the intake valve should have just closed, within a few degrees, so would move about 90 degrees away from that when the piston is at TDC, putting the flat surface that just left the cam follower about 90 degrees to the follower face. I am sitting here trying to remember which way the engine is turning, but forgot.
Quote:

The part that bothers me most about this whole thing is that it should not matter what position the engines in when you take it apart as long as the crank is not moved and the cam gears/cams are re-installed in the same orientation as the were removed in. My cam gears were both positioned with the tear drop shaped holes in the gears facing up and divided by the head/valve cover split line (as seen in the shop manual diagrams). This puts the cam gear slots in the cams and gear pins facing the crankshaft (again this agrees with the shop manual). When the cams are in this position the opposite end slots are parallel with the piston travel line ( again this agrees with the use of the BMW cam holding fixture). Since the gears were ty-wrapped to the chain and the crank never moved, I can't imagine how I could have it 90 degrees out? If the cam chain slipped on the crank a tooth I could understand having it of one tooth out, but not 90 degrees.
You are correct, if the crank did not turn, the chain was ty-wrapped to the sprockets, and you lined up the slots on the back of the cams and got the sprockets back on over the timing pins without pushing the pins in, then there is no way it could be misaligned now. Just to be sure, pull the cam sprocket bolts and washers so you can see the timing pin holes in the sprockets to be sure they are on the pins correctly. Again, if you are at TDC, and the cam slots are perpindicular to the head, there is really nothing to worry about. Forget the lobe positions, as long as both valves are closed and the slots are correct, the timing is correct.
Quote:

At this point I totally frustrated and have begun to doubt my years of engine building experience. It's very frustration not having easy access to the crank gear. In a V-8 I'd throw a degree wheel on the crank and degree in the cam.
But here, I can't do that. Maybe I'm over thinking this issue, but a bent valve can prove to be fatal.

Clarify something for me, your saying the cam grooves in the cam ends opposite the cam gears are suppose to be vertical (parallel with the valve cover/head splitline? The BMW shop manual say they are supposed to be horizontal (in line with piston travel)?? This is how the BMW cam holding tool holds them. Maybe this is where I'm screwed up?
I said the grooves in the back of the cams should be perpindicular to the head surface, not parallel. You are thinking correctly, I think you just misread my statement.
Quote:

Maybe I should throw the manual away and go back to my Engines 101 experience. Just get #1 at TDC and position the intake and exhaust lobes so the lobe heels are centered over the valve cap and in line with the valves.
No, as I said above, the intake valve should have moved about 90 degrees past the valve closing at TDC, the exhaust valve should be roughly 90 degrees away from starting to open the exhaust valve, at near BDC.

I think your settings are probably correct. At TDC on #1, the valves should both be closed, and the slots in the back of the cams perpindicular to the head surface. It they are, then you are right.
Quote:

Sorry to vent! I'm not vent on you, its just my frustration over something that aint that complex, but has me questioning weather the sun will rise in the east.
Believe me, I have been there more than once, having questioned myself until nothing seems right any more, then after calming down and thinking it through realize I was mis-analyzing to the point I could not see the forest for the trees any longer. Walk away and think of other things for awhile, come back and start looking at fresh, and the doubt goes away.
Quote:

Again, thanks in advance for the answers to some of the above questions and for taking your time reply.

Vern Shrader
Old1951
Hope you find that you were correct all along, and just like I did a couple times just got caught up in a temporary thinking error leading you down a rapidly dissolving mental state. Shake your head a few times to clear the cobwebs, go back and walk it through again thinking of what is going on in the engine as it rotates around, I think you will find you are just fine.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
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post #7 of 20 Old Nov 24th, 2006, 1:07 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
In thinking about it, I cannot remember exactly where the lobes were at TDC, I just remember that I positioned them that way checking the valves. In thinking it through, at BDC the intake valve should have just closed, within a few degrees, so would move about 90 degrees away from that when the piston is at TDC, putting the flat surface that just left the cam follower about 90 degrees to the follower face. I am sitting here trying to remember which way the engine is turning, but forgot.
OK, I just took a few minutes to think through the engine rotation, and it is counterclockwise facing the engine from the front. That puts the cams in a position at TDC which is pretty much the way I remembered it, with the inside facing flat faces of the intake/exhaust cam lobes just about perpindicular to the cam follower faces. That would have the intake cam lobe tip pointing outward and up, the exhaust pointing outward and down, about equal angles away from projected cylinder centerline.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
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EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #8 of 20 Old Nov 24th, 2006, 11:35 pm Thread Starter
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David,

I went back in and I'm convinced now that it was installed correctly. See attached photos of all the conditions when #1 is at TDC. Note the cam lobes on #1 (and all the rest at their respective TDC positions). The center of the lobe heel is not centered on the valve lash cap (parallel with the valve). However, proper valve lash clearance does exist when the lobes are how you see them. I think the position is due to cam overlap and lack of oil pressure on the chain tensioner. Don't ask me how I know this, but it is possible to create the lobe positions like you and I both expected (lobe centered along valve angle line and the heel centered on the lash cap. It can be created by swapping the intake and exhaust cam position. But when you do this #4 (which is also at TDC with #1) has all valves fully open (an obvious bent valve situation if the valve train were to be tightened up).

I have not fired up the engine as of yet. But I'm 99% it's correct. Take a looke at the photos and give me your thoughts.

Vern Shrader
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Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	(1) Rear cam slot position @ #1 TDC.JPG
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ID:	8353   Click image for larger version

Name:	(2) Gear pins & cam slots facing crankshaft @ #1 TDC.JPG
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ID:	8354   Click image for larger version

Name:	(3) Intake cam with 2 grooves.JPG
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ID:	8355   Click image for larger version

Name:	(4) Exhaust cam with 1 groove.JPG
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ID:	8356   Click image for larger version

Name:	(5) Cam lobe position on #1 @ TDC (valve lash correct in this position).JPG
Views:	334
Size:	1,017.7 KB
ID:	8357  

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post #9 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 7:49 am
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Cam Position

Quote:
Originally Posted by old1951
David,

I went back in and I'm convinced now that it was installed correctly. See attached photos of all the conditions when #1 is at TDC. Note the cam lobes on #1 (and all the rest at their respective TDC positions). The center of the lobe heel is not centered on the valve lash cap (parallel with the valve). However, proper valve lash clearance does exist when the lobes are how you see them. I think the position is due to cam overlap and lack of oil pressure on the chain tensioner. Don't ask me how I know this, but it is possible to create the lobe positions like you and I both expected (lobe centered along valve angle line and the heel centered on the lash cap. It can be created by swapping the intake and exhaust cam position. But when you do this #4 (which is also at TDC with #1) has all valves fully open (an obvious bent valve situation if the valve train were to be tightened up).

I have not fired up the engine as of yet. But I'm 99% it's correct. Take a looke at the photos and give me your thoughts.

Vern Shrader
old1951
Vern, I took a look at my bike this morning and the cam lobes you show in the pictures are exactly how mine are positioned at #1 Piston TDC, with the cam slots being perpindicular to the cylinder head. I feel confident that it is in proper timing. I am going to be attaching the cover to mine today and hopefully get onto some new throttle-cable routing.

Regards,

James

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post #10 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 9:33 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old1951
David,

I went back in and I'm convinced now that it was installed correctly. See attached photos of all the conditions when #1 is at TDC. Note the cam lobes on #1 (and all the rest at their respective TDC positions). The center of the lobe heel is not centered on the valve lash cap (parallel with the valve). However, proper valve lash clearance does exist when the lobes are how you see them. I think the position is due to cam overlap and lack of oil pressure on the chain tensioner. Don't ask me how I know this, but it is possible to create the lobe positions like you and I both expected (lobe centered along valve angle line and the heel centered on the lash cap. It can be created by swapping the intake and exhaust cam position. But when you do this #4 (which is also at TDC with #1) has all valves fully open (an obvious bent valve situation if the valve train were to be tightened up).

I have not fired up the engine as of yet. But I'm 99% it's correct. Take a looke at the photos and give me your thoughts.

Vern Shrader
old1951
The last picture is perfect. I never expected the cam lobes to be centered along the valve line! In my last post, I correctly stated that the inside facing flat faces of the cam lobes would be basically perpindicular to the follower faces, exactly as shown in the picture. I did say the intake valve would be point up, the exhaust down, but that was due to being sleepy at the time, I just reversed what I meant to say.

Your picture shows exactly what I said, with the engine rotating counterclockwise, the flat on the intake valve that was parallel to the follower at BDC has rotated close to 90 degrees and is now perpindicular to the follower face, the exhaust lobe flat will now rotate 90 degrees as the engine gets to BDC again and begin to open the exhaust valve.

You can feel safe to start the engine now.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
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post #11 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 10:39 am Thread Starter
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David, James and anyone interested,

Fired and ran the bike this morning. Runs great!

I feel confident that anyone can use these photos as examples of the condition you want to see before butting up the valve cover. They will definitely become part of my service record file for any future confusion. They depict essentially what the shop manual describes, but I personally find photographs much easier to refer to. Please use at your own risk of course.

David last night I had trouble sleeping for thinking about the lobe position. The more I thought about it I realized it has to be that way because the piston has to travel down the power stroke and then back up the exhaust stroke before the next before the next intake stroke. Hence, a lot of time has to pass before the intake valve is opened again. The proof in in the end result of course and the end result was terrific.

David, thanks again for being my second set of eyes and another biological computer to evaluate the situation. I can relate all too well to the too sleepy statement. I usually get the best results when I wall away from a problem for a while. It's amazing how clear thing can be upon returning.

Now my only problem is that I have to tear the damn thing back down because during my Rhinewest computer chip installation phase I forgot to reinstall the seven screws that hold the plastic cover over the back of the Motronic housing! Can you say DUH!

Thanks again for your kind help.

Vern Shrader
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post #12 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 1:36 pm
 
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Thanks for the pics Vern...

I am going to mine in about 10 days - this will be my second time to check the valves... Hopefully won't need to replace any (22k)....

Can never have to much info at hand!
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post #13 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 1:48 pm
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Hopefully won't need to replace any (22k)....
22k in 3 years?

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post #15 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 3:02 pm
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Valve adjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by old1951
David, James and anyone interested,

Fired and ran the bike this morning. Runs great!

I feel confident that anyone can use these photos as examples of the condition you want to see before butting up the valve cover. They will definitely become part of my service record file for any future confusion. They depict essentially what the shop manual describes, but I personally find photographs much easier to refer to. Please use at your own risk of course.

David last night I had trouble sleeping for thinking about the lobe position. The more I thought about it I realized it has to be that way because the piston has to travel down the power stroke and then back up the exhaust stroke before the next before the next intake stroke. Hence, a lot of time has to pass before the intake valve is opened again. The proof in in the end result of course and the end result was terrific.

David, thanks again for being my second set of eyes and another biological computer to evaluate the situation. I can relate all too well to the too sleepy statement. I usually get the best results when I wall away from a problem for a while. It's amazing how clear thing can be upon returning.

Now my only problem is that I have to tear the damn thing back down because during my Rhinewest computer chip installation phase I forgot to reinstall the seven screws that hold the plastic cover over the back of the Motronic housing! Can you say DUH!

Thanks again for your kind help.

Vern Shrader
old1951
Vern, glad to hear that it fired up just fine. That's great news. I will also be keeping the photos and records for future reference. Good idea!

Regards,

James

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post #16 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 4:40 pm
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Quote:
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Vern, glad to hear that it fired up just fine. That's great news. I will also be keeping the photos and records for future reference. Good idea!

Regards,

James
Once you've done it a few times (I've done 13 bikes), it's a piece of cake. I don't even use the formula enymore. We just drop the tight bucket and put in the next lowest. Works like a charm.



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post #17 of 20 Old Nov 25th, 2006, 4:59 pm
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Valve adjustment

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Originally Posted by grifscoots
Once you've done it a few times (I've done 13 bikes), it's a piece of cake. I don't even use the formula enymore. We just drop the tight bucket and put in the next lowest. Works like a charm.
Yup. That's what I did too. Makes calculating easy. Went from 2.90 to 2.85 and all the intake valves are now hunky-dory on the top end of the tolerance range, and the exhaust buckets stayed put as they are smack dab in the middle of the range. I know that next time will be so much easier, but I certainly do not look for having to adjust at the next 12k.

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post #18 of 20 Old Oct 17th, 2018, 11:12 pm
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All this info is so cool, but what should be the cranckshaft position to set in the right way the camshafts.

I understood the camshaft positions. Now , what is the crankshaft position??
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post #19 of 20 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 7:39 am
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Re: Valve Adjustment

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Originally Posted by Vimototv View Post
All this info is so cool, but what should be the cranckshaft position to set in the right way the camshafts.

I understood the camshaft positions. Now , what is the crankshaft position??
Crankshaft will be wherever it happens to be. When adjusting the valve clearance, the crankshaft position is irrelevant.

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post #20 of 20 Old Oct 18th, 2018, 8:21 pm
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Re: Valve Adjustment

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Originally Posted by Vimototv View Post
All this info is so cool, but what should be the cranckshaft position to set in the right way the camshafts.

I understood the camshaft positions. Now , what is the crankshaft position??
The only time you will care is if you removed the cams and you did not cable tie the chain to the cam gears. You will have to get the crank in the TDC with the cams slots perpendicular to the head to get the timing right.

But for the valve check you just want the lowest point on the cam at the bucket face.

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