mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear? - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 36 Old May 4th, 2017, 12:30 pm Thread Starter
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mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Just checking...

Ok to mix an Avon Storm 3D X-M front with a Metzler 888 rear?

Installed ME-880's on front and rear when I first bought the bike.
Front ME-880 now needs replacing after 16,000 (speedo does run about 10% high).
Still wasn't down to wear indicators but cupping was significant. Didn't want to take it on any long hauls on it.
Due to a puncture, the rear 880 got replaced with an 888. It still has good tread.

I bought the matching Avon for the back but thought I'd put some more miles on the 888 before replacing.

Just want to be sure it's ok to run the Avon / Metz combo for a little while.

Ken


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post #2 of 36 Old May 4th, 2017, 4:38 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Just finished mounting / installing the Avon.

Was a little concerned when I couldn't find a red or yellow dot.

Looked online and someone mentioned they are balanced before they leave the factory, ego no dots.

Either I got lucky or that's true.

The lite spot of the wheel by itself is opposite the valve stem, off maybe 20 degrees.

Took one 1/4oz to balance. Pretty much opposite the valve stem too!



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post #3 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 7:44 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I think it would OK to mix a bias rear with a radial front. Not ideal of course but doable. My guess is the XM will not last all that long anyway.

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post #4 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Thanks for the reply.

I must admit, I haven't really paid too much attention to tire technology.
I just remembered from years past, your not supposed to mix radials and Bias ply.

I usually read about what others are using.
Then read reviews noting - how they wear, wet weather traction, sticky on dry roads, etc..
Then buy a set, install them and go.

After reading your reply, I had to re-school myself on Radial (Steel belt, along tread) & Bias (cords run at angle, bead to bead).
Then read on why not to mix and if mixed, use radial on rear.

That said, I went to the Metzler website and read that the ME888 is a radial tire.
" Innovative belt structure with a single ply of steel cords wrapped around a radial carcass at 0°."

Then to Avon's site to find the rear tire is Hybird steel belt and I've yet to determine how the front it belted.

Don't / didn't want to start a big tire stink or discussion.
Guess I was being a little lazy and just wanted to know if I was safe to run this combo.

Ken


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post #5 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 11:01 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I was on a trip a few years back. I had radials on the LT. Well. Make a long story short. I thought I had enough rear tread to complete the trip. Well. I did not. Cords started peaking through the rear. Rt 50 through Rowelsburg WV tore that tire up. So i'm in the middle of nowhere and need a tire. The only dealer close. That had a 160/70/17 (80 miles away) is in Romney. A Kawi/Suzuki dealer. They had a Dunlop D401 Harley Davidson model. I got there. Got the tire mounted. Finished the trip with 1K to go. Ran the bias Dunlop rear/Avon radial front for over 1500 miles. No issues. I then replaced the set when it was more convenient at home.

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post #6 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 11:15 am Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Thanks James, I'm on hold right now with Metzler USA.
I need to find out exactly what's what.
Read on Metzler's website the ME888 is Steel belted Radial. Metzler tyres catalogue - ME 888 marathon ultra

Then see this on another site - motorcycle-usa.com -tire evolution metzeler me888 marathon ultras/

"Metzler’s ME888 fits Harley-Davidson’s new FL Touring motorcycles in addition to Softails and Sportsters.
The bias belted versions are produced in Brazil while radial 888’s are produced in Germany."

Just looked at my rear ME888, made in Brazil....

Thinking maybe I better just mount the new rear Avon and be done with this..


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post #7 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 11:39 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

ME888 Steel belted?? First I've heard of it. Could be I guess. Maybe contacting them will answer that.

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post #8 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 12:54 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Off the phone with Metzler USA.

Question - "Is my Metzler ME888 Marathon Ultra, size 160/70-17 79V Reinforced a Radial or Bias tire?"

"Radial"
Tell him I have Nylon & Polymide written on side of my tire
Now it's "Bias"
Direct him to website which reads "Steel Radial"
Now it's both "steel cords wrapped in Nylon"

I ask for another rep

"Danny's gone today, I'm it"

Heading down to garage to install new Avon..

Ken


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post #9 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 1:18 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I would not mix radial and bias on a motorcycle. This isn't even recommended for cars.

I don't know about Metzeler, but the Bridgestone BT020 is a radial tire, except for the two made specifically for the LT which are bias construction. If you check their web site you will see this in the tire description.

It could well be the same for other brands and the customer service folks that answer the phone may not be aware of such rare exceptions. I doubt the LT tires are best sellers for any tire company.

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post #10 of 36 Old May 5th, 2017, 8:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Finished installing the new rear Avon Storm 3D X-M.

New set of tires.. Can't wait to try em!


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post #11 of 36 Old May 6th, 2017, 1:54 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR125Honda View Post
Finished installing the new rear Avon Storm 3D X-M.

New set of tires.. Can't wait to try em!


Get out there. you will love them. been running avons since the first storm came out on the LT and now the RT.
absolutely the best tire ive used on any bike over 46 years of riding. ran 5 -6 brands. still the best.
KEEP THE RUBBER SIDE DOWN.

Zeke

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post #12 of 36 Old May 6th, 2017, 2:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Get out there. you will love them. been running avons since the first storm came out on the LT and now the RT.
absolutely the best tire ive used on any bike over 46 years of riding. ran 5 -6 brands. still the best.
KEEP THE RUBBER SIDE DOWN.

Zeke
Thanks Zeke.. Will do!

Have you run a 10% check on these? 39 /44 recommended on Avon's site.


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post #13 of 36 Old May 6th, 2017, 6:58 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by CR125Honda View Post
Thanks Zeke.. Will do!

Have you run a 10% check on these? 39 /44 recommended on Avon's site.
yes absolutely, 43 front/48 rear. seems to be best. i have tried all different lbs. but using the 10 percent rule always gives me these numbers to use. have used those number for over 20 sets. seems to work for my riding style.

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post #14 of 36 Old May 6th, 2017, 10:49 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I had a very long chat with Avon regarding this issue and wear on the 3d XM. After the engineers at avon watched my video review they felt that I was running too much pressure and it caused premature uneven wear. Im not real sure about that but they recommended these pressures for the LT. Front 36-38, rear 42. I was running 40F 44R to find the 10%. I may retry these tires and revisit the review.
Kirk

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post #15 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 10:36 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

38 and 42 Really? Well. It would be the first set that doesn't run 42 and 48. I would like to know how they came to that analysis for that conclusion. Not saying they aren't correct. Maybe they are. Just want to know why. Ok. I'll try their recommendations for pressures on my Avons.

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post #16 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 11:42 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

We wont know until we try. I say, everyone using them should cash in big time on their 15K wear out warranty! Read the conditions first so they cant back out. Avon Motorcycle Tyres North America » ? U.S. Claims

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post #17 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 12:47 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

15k miles??? No way it will ever happen..

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post #18 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 12:51 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Well. I'm done. Didn't register within 10 days. And ordered online. Have to track reciept. But. If I get 10K or so miles out of them. I would be just fine with that.

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post #19 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 3:06 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Not familiar, what is a 10% check?

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post #20 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 3:26 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14wntr View Post
We wont know until we try. I say, everyone using them should cash in big time on their 15K wear out warranty! Read the conditions first so they cant back out. Avon Motorcycle Tyres North America » ? U.S. Claims
Yes, always worth experimenting if a given pressure didn't yield good results.

I had good results with the forum consensue 42/48 with several sets of ME880s. I got 8-9,000 rear and 17-18,000 front with manageable levels of cupping.

I am now running BT020s after running one on the rear and getting more than 12,000 miles on it, but with a fair amount of cupping. My front is wearing much faster than the ME880, as many here have found, and may not last as long as the rear Bridgestone. Since the Bridgestone rear has a 48 rather than 50 psi max pressure, I am wondering if maybe slightly lower pressures might work better for the BT020s as compared to the 880s.

I have a later model LT so I don't think Avon makes a bias ply tire for the LT. I would try them if they did.

Regarding the 10% "rule", I would not get too hung up on that. It is at most a guideline, not a law of physics. Any pressure between the bike maker's recommendation and the tire maker's maximum are clearly fair game, 10% "rule" or no.

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post #21 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 4:08 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

So. 10%. Over 39/ 44 ?

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post #22 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 4:44 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alabrew View Post
Not familiar, what is a 10% check?
It is an OWT that suggests the "best" tire pressure is such that the pressure rise from "cold" to "hot" is 10%. So, if you inflate your tire to 30 psi "cold", ride for some period of time and check your "hot" pressure and it is 33 psi, you have the "optimum" pressure. If the rise is less than 10%, you reduce pressure to allow more sidewall flex and thus greater heat generation. If the rise is more than 10%, you increase pressure to reduce heat generation.

This "rule" has several flaws and I consider it next to useless. A few issues I have:

1. Pressure rise is not linear and will vary based on where you live. What works in Arizona may not work in Alaska even with the same 10% rise.
2. Some tire types inherently generate less heat (radials vs. bias, belted vs. not, etc.).
3. Is the 10% test done at max gross vehicle weight? I seldom see vehicle weight considered.
4. What defines "cold?" First thing in the morning or after sitting in the sun for a few hours?
5. What defines "hot?" 30 minutes at 55 on a blacktop road? 60 minutes at 70 on a concrete interstate? Something else?
6. This probably only matters to me, but I have yet to read a technical paper that provides any engineering basis for this "rule."

That's my opinion and worth every penny you paid for it.
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post #23 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 10:11 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14wntr View Post
We wont know until we try. I say, everyone using them should cash in big time on their 15K wear out warranty! Read the conditions first so they cant back out. Avon Motorcycle Tyres North America » ? U.S. Claims
I'm game....

Just registered my purchase. Avon Motorcycle Tyres North America » Mileage Registration
Purchased at Rocky Mountain ATV on 5/2/2017, local pick-up.
Installed both 120/70ZR-17 (58W) & 160/70R-17 (79V) on 5/6/2017.
Mileage at time in installation 72663. Plus 15,000 would equal 87663.

I'll run these at 38~39 front, 42~44 rear per recommended pressure by Avon engineers (Kirk, 14wntr) and their website data .

Posting this as a reference for myself and others to look back on at a later date.

Mileage at time of picture taken on 5/7/2017, 72703

Ken





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post #24 of 36 Old May 7th, 2017, 10:53 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

So far. You bring up some damn good points. What is the criteria for 10%??? I guess. The best thing for me to do. I usually run 42 in the front,48 in the rear.I will split the difference between their recommendations and the pressures I just stated and have always ran. I'll go with 40 front 45 rear see if these XM's wear longer. Still. I don't see I or anyone else on an LT get 15K out of a set.

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post #25 of 36 Old May 8th, 2017, 6:09 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by james216 View Post
So far. You bring up some damn good points. What is the criteria for 10%??? I guess. The best thing for me to do. I usually run 42 in the front,48 in the rear.I will split the difference between their recommendations and the pressures I just stated and have always ran. I'll go with 40 front 45 rear see if these XM's wear longer. Still. I don't see I or anyone else on an LT get 15K out of a set.
I don't see 15 on a rear. I easily got 15K on my front ME880s.

Just remember the two-year limit.

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post #26 of 36 Old May 8th, 2017, 1:48 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Yea. I don't see me getting that out of the front either. Maybe 12/13k. But I'm happy with that. If i get 10/12K out of a set. I'm satisfied with that considering the spirited riding I do sometimes.

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post #27 of 36 Old May 8th, 2017, 3:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Took a small ride with the new tires and wife on back yesterday.
Speeds below 60.
All went well, felt well, etc.. About a 40 mile ride.

On a road trip today with these new tires. 200 miles so far.
Running 39 / 44 psi. cold and 44 / 51 when I checked after 45 minutes at hwy speed.
Having a issue at speeds 70 & above.
Almost feels like front tire is near flat or very low pressure.
Getting a very strange oscillation almost like swashing a five gallon bucket of water side to side.

Called Avon. They authorized a tire change at my earliest / nearest convenience.
In Chattanooga now. Will be crossing the Blueridge shortly enroute to Spartanburg, SC.

Anyone know a good dealer there to swap the tire(s)?

Ken


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post #28 of 36 Old May 8th, 2017, 8:33 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CR125Honda View Post
Took a small ride with the new tires and wife on back yesterday.
Speeds below 60.
All went well, felt well, etc.. About a 40 mile ride.

On a road trip today with these new tires. 200 miles so far.
Running 39 / 44 psi. cold and 44 / 51 when I checked after 45 minutes at hwy speed.
Having a issue at speeds 70 & above.
Almost feels like front tire is near flat or very low pressure.
Getting a very strange oscillation almost like swashing a five gallon bucket of water side to side.

Called Avon. They authorized a tire change at my earliest / nearest convenience.
In Chattanooga now. Will be crossing the Blueridge shortly enroute to Spartanburg, SC.

Anyone know a good dealer there to swap the tire(s)?

Ken
Mine did that for the first few hundred miles and then seemed to settle in. I also bumped the pressure to 42/48 and that may have helped.
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post #29 of 36 Old May 9th, 2017, 5:48 am
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by St0rm1 View Post
Mine did that for the first few hundred miles and then seemed to settle in. I also bumped the pressure to 42/48 and that may have helped.
The last step in tire manufacture is 150 miles of brake-in ride. no hard braking or take off's
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post #30 of 36 Old May 9th, 2017, 10:24 am Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Mine did that for the first few hundred miles and then seemed to settle in. I also bumped the pressure to 42/48 and that may have helped.
Thanks St0rm1,
Good to know I'm not the lone ranger on this. You say they Seemed to settle in. Did the issue ever go away completely?
I've run this bike at 100+ in the past and never felt unstable. Tires are the last thing I want to worry about at high speeds.
This was borderline scary at speeds around 85. Especially when semi's were close by.

The very first ride I took with these, the pressure was set at 42/48.
Speeds were never higher than 65. I'd describe that ride as feeling very nimble.
To me, it felt like the tires didn't have a very wide footprint.
Stopped to look. With new tires, it was easily visible that the contact area was about an 1 1/2" wide.
I reduced to factory recommended pressure of 39/44 (cold), which seemed to help the ride at slower speeds feel more stable.

This is the first time I've had an issue with new tires.
In the past, my break-in period has been scrubbing off the sheen then thoroughly enjoying that "new tire" feel for the next thousand miles or so.


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post #31 of 36 Old May 9th, 2017, 7:14 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by CR125Honda View Post
Thanks St0rm1,
Good to know I'm not the lone ranger on this. You say they Seemed to settle in. Did the issue ever go away completely?
I've run this bike at 100+ in the past and never felt unstable. Tires are the last thing I want to worry about at high speeds.
This was borderline scary at speeds around 85. Especially when semi's were close by.

The very first ride I took with these, the pressure was set at 42/48.
Speeds were never higher than 65. I'd describe that ride as feeling very nimble.
To me, it felt like the tires didn't have a very wide footprint.
Stopped to look. With new tires, it was easily visible that the contact area was about an 1 1/2" wide.
I reduced to factory recommended pressure of 39/44 (cold), which seemed to help the ride at slower speeds feel more stable.

This is the first time I've had an issue with new tires.
In the past, my break-in period has been scrubbing off the sheen then thoroughly enjoying that "new tire" feel for the next thousand miles or so.
I had the same experience. It felt like it was floating or following tar snakes. Low speeds it felt fine but at 70+ it became floaty. At first I thought it was the road but it still did it on other roads as well. After a while it went away except when the wind is blowing. Then it's just the bike not the tires. I have kept the tire pressure up and have noticed the front is cupping but no wandering at high speeds. I have noticed they are a little slick while cold but any tire is I guess.
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post #32 of 36 Old May 9th, 2017, 7:17 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
The last step in tire manufacture is 150 miles of brake-in ride. no hard braking or take off's
I always ran tires relatively easy for the first hundred miles or so wearing any mold release off. I had never thought about the tires needing to heat cycle and break in themselves.
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post #33 of 36 Old May 9th, 2017, 9:12 pm Thread Starter
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

Called EuroSport in Asheville,NC this morning.
After talking with Matt (service mgr), I decided to make the hour ride up there from Spartanburg to get this sorted out.
As a corporate pilot with 30 plus years experience, I think I'm qualified to use the term "hours of boredom followed by seconds of terror".

Wouldn't really go that far, but yesterday's ride had it's moments.

The scary parts were in the first 200-300 miles on the new tires.
After that, I never took it above 75 mph.
Arrived in Spartanburg last night. Total mileage on new tires, 500.

Headed up to Eurosport this morning.
Rode up Interstate US26 at 60 mph, then 70, 80, 90.... No wandering or oscillations...
This ride was with no luggage (my guess to be about 40 pounds) and 500 plus miles on the new tires.

Decided to continue on and talk with them anyway.
So glad I did.
I've been to many BMW dealers across the nation and I've got to say, this was, hands down, the best.
The guys/gals there I dealt with all walk the walk. It's more than a job to those I interacted with. I hope this post gets to their boss.

Thank you Matt in service for taking the time to explain your best guess of what was going on with the new Avon radial tires.
And also a big thank you to Blair in parts dept. He helped with an issue I've been having with my BMW communicator in my C3 pro.
Other BMW dealers suggested I send the entire helmet back to Germany, Blair took care of the problem while I was there.

Ken


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post #34 of 36 Old May 13th, 2017, 1:21 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I can't remember where I read it at, but mixing brands on a bike is not ideal. If I recall, the subject started about people putting car tires on the rear of their bikes. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out; tire beads are completely different. Tires are designed to match your pressures. Now, unlike a car tire that has a simple two axis pressure on a tire bead, a motorcycle tire has a 3 axis pressure on the bead. In a turn, the rear is subjected to acceleration/decel, cornering/g-force AND lean. The front is subject to accel/decel, but by varying force and pressure. When a motorcycle SET is constructed and designed, all of these forces from front to rear are accounted and the shape is made to compliment the other tire. By mismatching tires, you can actually overwork your suspension and the tires, causing a premature catastrophic failure.
When I bought my K1200LT, it had a brand new Pirelli Diablo on the front and a Bridgestone on the rear. At first, I never really thought too much about it, having to counter steer in a highway speed corner almost felt natural. At low speeds, the bike was completely unstable. After putting 5K on the bike, the front went away. I replaced both front and rear with Metzler's. Since then, cornering is effortless and smooth. The bike probably took about 6 naps with the mismatched tires and is yet to go down since replacing them almost 7K ago. Still have a considerable amount of tread on both front and rear. My recommendation is NEVER mismatch tires, always replace in pairs and only in cases such as a flat tire or damage with more than 50% tread life replace them one at a time.

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post #35 of 36 Old May 13th, 2017, 3:22 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

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Originally Posted by Travis Handleson View Post
I can't remember where I read it at, but mixing brands on a bike is not ideal. If I recall, the subject started about people putting car tires on the rear of their bikes. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out; tire beads are completely different. Tires are designed to match your pressures. Now, unlike a car tire that has a simple two axis pressure on a tire bead, a motorcycle tire has a 3 axis pressure on the bead. In a turn, the rear is subjected to acceleration/decel, cornering/g-force AND lean. The front is subject to accel/decel, but by varying force and pressure. When a motorcycle SET is constructed and designed, all of these forces from front to rear are accounted and the shape is made to compliment the other tire. By mismatching tires, you can actually overwork your suspension and the tires, causing a premature catastrophic failure.
When I bought my K1200LT, it had a brand new Pirelli Diablo on the front and a Bridgestone on the rear. At first, I never really thought too much about it, having to counter steer in a highway speed corner almost felt natural. At low speeds, the bike was completely unstable. After putting 5K on the bike, the front went away. I replaced both front and rear with Metzler's. Since then, cornering is effortless and smooth. The bike probably took about 6 naps with the mismatched tires and is yet to go down since replacing them almost 7K ago. Still have a considerable amount of tread on both front and rear. My recommendation is NEVER mismatch tires, always replace in pairs and only in cases such as a flat tire or damage with more than 50% tread life replace them one at a time.

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I would be curious to know your source as, quite frankly, I think most of what you posted here is simply wrong. Mismatching tire types, radial with bias, can cause issues and I think every tire maker recommends against this. Mixing brands is extremely unlikely to cause any issue and there is zero need to change front and rear at the same time. I would throw out a lot of expensive half worn tires if I did that.

The key parameters for tires are construction type (suspensions are tuned differently for radials vs. bias), size, load range and inflation pressure. Tread type matters as to basic category (street, dual purpose, knobby), but differences within a category are relatively minor. I wouldn't mix a street tire with a full knobby, but mixing different brands of street tires is a third order effect at best.

If you can find the source that said not to mix brands, please post here as I'd like to read it and see their reasoning.

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post #36 of 36 Old May 13th, 2017, 10:01 pm
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Re: mix Avon Storm 3D XM front and ME888 Rear?

I tried a BT020 rear tire. Metz on front still good. Loved it. 8500 miles later (the most I've ever got on a rear tire), another new BT020, and mounted an un-wornout Metz I had saved from when I wanted to start a trip with fresh tires. 48/42. I think I've found the perfect combo. No, not perfect, best for me.


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