Help the "FNG"... - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 9 Old Apr 10th, 2017, 8:50 pm Thread Starter
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Help the "FNG"...

I have a 05 k1200LT and a problem with reverse and start/reverse button. [This read will be either painful or interesting and fun or funny]

All seemed to begin when I ran out of fuel due to a stuck fuel gauge and not monitoring miles on a recent road trip from Portland Oregon to Kelowna BC.

Broken down on the Road side Just a half mile to the next exit I found my self trying to push the big bike for a few yards before rethinking the task.

Engaging the starter I put it in gear and feathered the clutch (right at the safety switch where you shouldn't be able to engage start when in gear)to grab second gear crawling the bike along . After approximately 1/4 mile it noticed the battery running down and set the bike on the center stand and walked shamefully to the next service station.

After refueling I started up with a sluggish starter and regenerated 12V getting back on the road there seemed to be no problems underway.

As the evening fell I noticed no headlights when I'd come to a stop at an intersection off ramp.

Removing my ear plugs I can hear the starter engaging when I get to neutral. It appears that the starter has a safety to disengage start when placing the bike in gear. Placing the bike in neutral with the bike running you can hear the starter motor spinning and head lights ,radio, & cb all turning off likely to dedicate all 12v to the starter.

Placing in gear and rolling forward all accessories and headlight operate. I tried reverse and it automatically began to reverse & the throttle raised out of idle. Fortunately the front brake and rear brake were able to overpower the torque of the Electric reverse. Kill flick switch stopped all action as well.

I figured to continue to my destination and find shelter to open the Tupperware for the first time.

I thought the contacts would be welded in the start relay and I'd open it up and free the contacts.

The start relay was not under the seat with the fuses... it must be somewhere easy to get to...
I take apart the faring on one side and did not see any logical access .

Maybe it's on the other side of the bike so I remove that faring....nope.

Looks like I could pull the fuel gauge assembly and I found there was some tube that has a slide float inside . I disassembled that and removed the dent ...I wonder how this could dent? The tank had a heavy vacuum draw when I would open the cap from 200mile stretch. Maybe the plastic tank collapsed under vacuum ?

So I pull the tank to reveal the air box and electronics relay box.

I opened the blue TYCO relay and found contacts ok. Carbon on the points and I lightly cleaned contacts. There was a solid state micro control board in this relay and the 12v coils did not appear to be heated or heat worn.

I put it all back together with the fuel gauge now operational however engaging reverse automatically motored backward and raised the idle rpm slightly.

The headlights and accessories would intermittently drop when in neutral or pulling clutch and I could hear the starter spinning . Fortunately the starter did not spin the whole trip back to Portland.

Now I wonder if I should be confident that the start relay should be replaced with the symptoms or is there a problem at the handlebar control start/kill switch or should I look at the reverse switching knob?

In the end I feel this is caused by my decision to run my bike forward with the electric motor. The low voltage caused high amperage and now I've caused damage to the electronics.

Anyone have any thoughts on the symptoms ?

Thank you in advance for your tolerance and support.

I will understand if I get kicked from your forum for such a long read and self induced mechanical failure.

Kind Regard,
J.Higgins "FNG"
Portland Oregon
05 k1200lt
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post #2 of 9 Old Apr 11th, 2017, 12:21 am
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

Sounds like the original problem was that you had run out of gas. I had a similar problem to your initial issue when I did preventative maintenance in readiness for my 25 day/25 state tour in '14. I took the tupperware and tank off and when I remounted everything, I crimped the fuel vent line on the right hand side. This caused the fuel tank to create a vacuum and collapse into the fuel level sensor tube, denting the tube, preventing the float from going below the quarter tank level. I ended up running out of gas, coasting to a stop outside of Indianapolis, about a block short of reaching a gas station. Someone saw me struggling to push the bike the remaining way and jumped out to give me a push. I ended up leaving the fuel tank cap slightly ajar the rest of the trip so that it wouldn't collapse again and monitored fuel level by miles ridden between fill ups. You may want to consider using a Ford starter relay in place of the Bring More Wallet version, like others have done. Others may chime in on your other issues. Good luck!
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Dave Beck
'16 K1600GTLE
'07 K1200LT (sold 9/24/16)
'74 Suzuki GT750L (long, long gone)


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post #3 of 9 Old Apr 11th, 2017, 12:51 pm
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

You may have shorted out the solenoid on the starter, or overheated the control circuit from the switch to the relay. I'd start with the relay, then examine the wiring to and from the starter. If that isn't melted and shorted out, disconnect the wires from the starter switch and use an ohmmeter to make sure the switch didn't weld shut. Should not get any reading across the terminals on the switch in ohms. While still reading the terminal in ohms, press the switch and you should be less than 0.8 ohms, release and get nothing again. If you have a high dollar Fluke Meter like mine, erratic readings in the 200-300 range are nothing, so long as you are in "auto-range" and there is an "M" lit up on the meter. You are looking for a solid reading <25 ohms to indicate switch failure. If at this point you are still not finding anything, then get ready for butthurt bleeding and replace the starter and selonoid as a complete unit. And if you still can't find the cause, you may try parking a new bike under the radiator cap...that'll fix it for sure.😉

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post #4 of 9 Old Apr 11th, 2017, 1:33 pm
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

The 05 LT has the updated blue starter relay with the low voltage cut out. If the starter starts and stops with certain configurations of the interlocks, then the relay is fine.

The interlocks do keep the starter from engaging when in gear and side stand is down or clutch is not disengaged. The emergency cut out relay is wired to the kill and feeds the load shed relay. The reason your lights are going out is the load shed relay is cutting out as it is supposed to when the starter is depressed.

Does your bike start itself or try when you turn on the key, in neutral and side stand up clutch pulled in?

If it does and you still have the tank off, locate the right multi function switch plug in the area of the RED arrow on the connection block. I think it is the top connector Black with a blue 2 position plug inside next to it with a single heavy wire connecting the two plugs. Pull out the plugs and see if the issue goes away. If it does, you may have shorted the starter button connection and need to get a replacement multi function switch.

It sounds like everything is working as it should but possibly the starter button is fused. This would be true if and only if you turn on the key with all interlocks met side stand up clutch in or not in gear and it starts itself and the starter stops with clutch in and you put the side stand down while in gear. ( you said you hear the starter engage in neutral. ) Lights not working when all are met indicates the starter button is pressed and has shut off the load shed relay. At least that is a place to start. It could be as already suggested, melted wires in relation to the starter button. Easy test is pull the right multi switch plug.

You need to do the canisterectomy as either you have a blocked vent tube to the tank or the canister is clogged from a tip over or overfilling.

EDIT: I just realized that the kill switch is also on the right multi switch so pulling the multi switch plugs out would disable the starter by opening the kill switch which is normally closed. I will get the wires to test the starter button when I get home to look. I think it is going to be a black with yellow and green with yellow that goes to the starter button. You can measure those with a meter. Should see a connection when button is pressed and NC when not pressing it.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; Apr 11th, 2017 at 3:34 pm.
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post #5 of 9 Old Apr 11th, 2017, 1:40 pm
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Handleson View Post
You may have shorted out the solenoid on the starter, or overheated the control circuit from the switch to the relay. I'd start with the relay, then examine the wiring to and from the starter. If that isn't melted and shorted out, disconnect the wires from the starter switch and use an ohmmeter to make sure the switch didn't weld shut. Should not get any reading across the terminals on the switch in ohms. While still reading the terminal in ohms, press the switch and you should be less than 0.8 ohms, release and get nothing again. If you have a high dollar Fluke Meter like mine, erratic readings in the 200-300 range are nothing, so long as you are in "auto-range" and there is an "M" lit up on the meter. You are looking for a solid reading <25 ohms to indicate switch failure. If at this point you are still not finding anything, then get ready for butthurt bleeding and replace the starter and selonoid as a complete unit. And if you still can't find the cause, you may try parking a new bike under the radiator cap...that'll fix it for sure.😉

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Starter on the LT has no solenoid. Sounds like all the relays are working, load shed, emergency shut off and starter. 05 has the updated starter relay to prevent fusing from low battery voltage cranking. Melted wiring or a fused starter button is likely.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #6 of 9 Old Apr 11th, 2017, 2:01 pm
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

Better picture of the right multi switch plugs
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #7 of 9 Old Apr 12th, 2017, 12:09 am Thread Starter
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

This is a great response and leads me to my next stage of action. I will follow up .the bike does intermittently self restarts when I was figiting with the big reverse knob killing the start switch and disengaging the "R" knob.from cold new starts it is business as usual with no problems kill switch centered , key on and starts only when button pushed. I'll look into canister vent block , sounds like the root of vacuum. So much valuable content in your reply. I appreciate your support.

Juaning
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post #8 of 9 Old Apr 12th, 2017, 7:38 am
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juaning View Post
This is a great response and leads me to my next stage of action. I will follow up .the bike does intermittently self restarts when I was figiting with the big reverse knob killing the start switch and disengaging the "R" knob.from cold new starts it is business as usual with no problems kill switch centered , key on and starts only when button pushed. I'll look into canister vent block , sounds like the root of vacuum. So much valuable content in your reply. I appreciate your support.

Juaning
Good luck finding the issue. Intermittent issues can be a real pain so if it is working properly now or when cold, that makes it all the more difficult to locate.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #9 of 9 Old Apr 12th, 2017, 1:56 pm
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Re: Help the "FNG"...

I work on electric overhead cranes for a living and sympathize with intermittent problems. I can't begin to count the number of times I've been called out for a non-working crane, show up and I can't get it to quit. "I can't fix it if it ain't broke."

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