Oil Filter question - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 4:46 am Thread Starter
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Oil Filter question

This is for a 1999 K1200LT bike.

Is there a Huge difference between Oil filters for this bike ?

For example: Is the FRAM PH6063 filter any good ? It suppose to fit this bike.

Compared to the Mahler or other filters (the one in the Yellow & Green box, Mann I think is the brand, it is made in Austria)...is there much of a difference between these brands ?

Thank you all.
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post #2 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 5:27 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

Never used them.
I use K&N kn-163 on my K100rs, K1200 uses the same one.
I have been very happy with them.
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post #3 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 7:39 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

If you do a search this has been discussed many times. I think as long as you do not use a "painted" filter, you should be ok. If it were me, and you do not want to support your local dealer, I would order six from BeamerBoneyard and not worry about them for a long time. Plus they come with the large O-ring for the cover housing.
Here is a couple of search links:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...il-filter.html
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...reference.html
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post #4 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:16 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
If you do a search this has been discussed many times. I think as long as you do not use a "painted" filter, you should be ok. If it were me, and you do not want to support your local dealer, I would order six from BeamerBoneyard and not worry about them for a long time. Plus they come with the large O-ring for the cover housing.
Here is a couple of search links:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...il-filter.html
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...reference.html

Yes, unpainted and sticker free is the main criteria. I buy mine from BBY. Bosch as I recall. Based on reviews I have read and tests I have seen, I stay away from anything with Fram or K&N on the box.

I would lose no sleep with a filter from Mahle, Mann, Bosch, Wix, Purolator or a few other brands that I can't remember at the moment.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #5 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 12:11 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

BBY for filters. I have used them for years, and buy them buy the dozen for my LT and my son's LT. Mobil 1 15w-50, every 3500 miles. My bike just turned 165K, and uses no oil. I also change final drive fluid every oil change, which takes all of 5 minutes.
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post #6 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 12:28 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

I agree with Voyager. Stay away from the K&N as they have a stamped metal nut on the bottom which in my case simply rounded off and I had to destroy the filter to get it out. PO must have tightened it with a torque wrench at 50 FT LB or wiped the sealing surfaces and put it on dry. Some things are worth trying to skimp on and others I am finding are not worth the resulting trouble.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #7 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 5:41 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
I agree with Voyager. Stay away from the K&N as they have a stamped metal nut on the bottom which in my case simply rounded off and I had to destroy the filter to get it out. PO must have tightened it with a torque wrench at 50 FT LB or wiped the sealing surfaces and put it on dry. Some things are worth trying to skimp on and others I am finding are not worth the resulting trouble.
I have over 300k miles on my bike 85 k100rs with K&N, NEVER had any problems with the nut stripping or paint coming off. You say the previous owner probably put it on with a torque wrench. I doubt it, I bet you are right he didn't oil the o-ring. You would have had the same problem no matter what filter was used.

And oil filters only need to be tightened just passed hand tight.

And no I don't work for them, Just a happy customer. I also use their reusable air filter too.
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post #8 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 7:40 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
I have over 300k miles on my bike 85 k100rs with K&N, NEVER had any problems with the nut stripping or paint coming off. You say the previous owner probably put it on with a torque wrench. I doubt it, I bet you are right he didn't oil the o-ring. You would have had the same problem no matter what filter was used.

And oil filters only need to be tightened just passed hand tight.

And no I don't work for them, Just a happy customer. I also use their reusable air filter too.
To each their own. Once bitten, twice shy..

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #9 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:57 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
I have over 300k miles on my bike 85 k100rs with K&N, NEVER had any problems with the nut stripping or paint coming off. You say the previous owner probably put it on with a torque wrench. I doubt it, I bet you are right he didn't oil the o-ring. You would have had the same problem no matter what filter was used.

And oil filters only need to be tightened just passed hand tight.

And no I don't work for them, Just a happy customer. I also use their reusable air filter too.
And airplanes and original Beetles got by with no oil filter at all. If you change your oil often and don't drive in dusty conditions, the oil filter is largely redundant. However, those times when you need it, a good one makes all the difference.
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2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #10 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 10:46 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Oil Filter question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrevelino View Post
If you do a search this has been discussed many times. I think as long as you do not use a "painted" filter, you should be ok. If it were me, and you do not want to support your local dealer, I would order six from BeamerBoneyard and not worry about them for a long time. Plus they come with the large O-ring for the cover housing.
Here is a couple of search links:
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...il-filter.html
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...reference.html
I actually did a search on this site for oil filters and came up with many things not related to the topic thus I posted a new posting.

Why no painted filter....because it contaminates the oil. Do the paint breaks down on all of them ?

I think most of them are painted.

Thanks
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post #11 of 35 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 11:14 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by BMW_forever View Post
I actually did a search on this site for oil filters and came up with many things not related to the topic thus I posted a new posting.

Why no painted filter....because it contaminates the oil. Do the paint breaks down on all of them ?

I think most of them are painted.

Thanks
In the case of the LT, the filter resides inside the oil pan. Paint due to heat and oil might just flake off and be splashed around outside the filter and get into things it shouldn't and cause damage. The stock filters are not painted and some of the after market are. If you feel lucky, go with a painted filter. It is one easy thing to avoid by getting the correct filter in the first place. No paint, no possibility of paint flaking off inside your engine. Do ya feel lucky. Well, do ya?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #12 of 35 Old Apr 1st, 2017, 3:32 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

I think the Clymer says one quarter turn after the filter seal meets the metal. Had the K&N curse when a mechanic over torqued the filter, a $30 set of Irwin reverse sockets fixed it. I think K&N would be OK in the hands of an informed owner. You can get the Bosch at the parts store. Glad the weather is changing. Ride safe.

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post #13 of 35 Old Apr 1st, 2017, 5:47 am Thread Starter
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by Moogie View Post
I think the Clymer says one quarter turn after the filter seal meets the metal. Had the K&N curse when a mechanic over torqued the filter, a $30 set of Irwin reverse sockets fixed it. I think K&N would be OK in the hands of an informed owner. You can get the Bosch at the parts store. Glad the weather is changing. Ride safe.
Ok, I have to ask all of you....why NO Fram filters ?

I never used them on this bike but they happen to be on huge sale now. Can't tell if they are painted or not for this filter for this bike.

Have you guys had bad experiences with Fram ?

I know the filters are fairly cheap, just trying to buy a large quantity to save on the shipping too.

Thanks.
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post #14 of 35 Old Apr 2nd, 2017, 6:56 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
In the case of the LT, the filter resides inside the oil pan. Paint due to heat and oil might just flake off and be splashed around outside the filter and get into things it shouldn't and cause damage. The stock filters are not painted and some of the after market are. If you feel lucky, go with a painted filter. It is one easy thing to avoid by getting the correct filter in the first place. No paint, no possibility of paint flaking off inside your engine. Do ya feel lucky. Well, do ya?
How about oem filter? that should be good right?

Its painted
Or is it not a good filter?

All K bikes have the filter inside the motor, all the way back to 1984, and they all use the same filter (up to 1200's)

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post #15 of 35 Old Apr 2nd, 2017, 7:58 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by red85k100rs View Post
How about oem filter? that should be good right?

Its painted
Or is it not a good filter?n

All K bikes have the filter inside the motor, all the way back to 1984, and they all use the same filter (up to 1200's)
OEM is always a safe choice, just expensive. I believe it is printed with ink, not painted. Painted may work, but you run a risk as most spin-on filters were designed for external use. Most internal filters are cartridge type. I still don't know what possessed BMW to use a spin-on filter inside the cases. Just stupid.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #16 of 35 Old Apr 2nd, 2017, 10:19 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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OEM Most internal filters are cartridge type. I still don't know what possessed BMW to use a spin-on filter inside the cases. Just stupid.
100% agree
I have a bmw 528i (its a car) that has an internal oil filter.
Just a slide on cartridge. Its on top of the motor too.
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post #17 of 35 Old Apr 2nd, 2017, 12:16 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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100% agree
I have a bmw 528i (its a car) that has an internal oil filter.
Just a slide on cartridge. Its on top of the motor too.
My Voyager XII had an internal cartridge filter and it worked well. It had a round cover that was o-ring sealed and held on by a single bolt. A little messy to remove, but easier than the three bolt BMW design. And no filter wrenche needed. Slide off the old filter and slide on the new one and screw the bolt and cover back in. No reason BMW couldn't have used a similar design.

My Equinox and Cruze have the top mount cartridge filters. Very low mess. The only issue is Chevy insists on locating hoses or wires above the filter cover making it hard to remove and replace. All those cars need now is a quick drain like my airplane had and they would facilitate nearly zero mess oil changes. Unfortunately, quick release drains and exposed oil pans aren't a good combination.

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1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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post #18 of 35 Old Apr 2nd, 2017, 1:20 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

NAPA Gold 1348, has no paint.
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post #19 of 35 Old Apr 3rd, 2017, 6:40 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

Well, I got a call from my son yesterday.
He has a 91 k100rs.
"Dad I can't get the oil filter off, I striped the nut."
Yes its the K&N.
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post #20 of 35 Old Apr 3rd, 2017, 6:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: Oil Filter question

Ok let me ask this again since all the answers seem to have nothing to do with the question:


....why NO Fram filters ?

I never used them on this bike but they happen to be on huge sale now. Can't tell if they are painted or not for this filter for this bike.

Have you guys had bad experiences with Fram Oil filters for this bike ?

I know the filters are fairly cheap, just trying to buy a large quantity to save on the shipping too.

Thanks.
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post #21 of 35 Old Apr 3rd, 2017, 10:56 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by BMW_forever View Post
Ok let me ask this again since all the answers seem to have nothing to do with the question:


....why NO Fram filters ?

I never used them on this bike but they happen to be on huge sale now. Can't tell if they are painted or not for this filter for this bike.

Have you guys had bad experiences with Fram Oil filters for this bike ?

I know the filters are fairly cheap, just trying to buy a large quantity to save on the shipping too.

Thanks.
Your bike, your call. It is analysis like this that influenced me.

Engine Oil Filter Study

I saw several reviews on K&N air filters many years ago and they flow more air, but they also flow more dirt. I haven't investigated their oil filters as I had no reason to do so.

I ride lots of dirt roads so I favor filter performance over engine performance. I want filters that filter well, have quality anti drain back valves (for engines that need that), etc., over filters that flow a little more air or oil. If I was a racer, I would probably consider K&N as winning is more important than long engine life. As a street bike rider, I favor long engine life.

I know this is an oil filter thread, but it is tests like this that keep K&N filters out of my vehicles.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
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2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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Last edited by Voyager; Apr 3rd, 2017 at 11:15 am. Reason: Added air filter link
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post #22 of 35 Old Apr 3rd, 2017, 12:16 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Your bike, your call. It is analysis like this that influenced me.

Engine Oil Filter Study

I saw several reviews on K&N air filters many years ago and they flow more air, but they also flow more dirt. I haven't investigated their oil filters as I had no reason to do so.

I ride lots of dirt roads so I favor filter performance over engine performance. I want filters that filter well, have quality anti drain back valves (for engines that need that), etc., over filters that flow a little more air or oil. If I was a racer, I would probably consider K&N as winning is more important than long engine life. As a street bike rider, I favor long engine life.

I know this is an oil filter thread, but it is tests like this that keep K&N filters out of my vehicles.

K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)
Yep, I just took the K&N air filter that came with my bike from the PO out and replaced it with a stock filter. That air filter link shows why. I would have had it out earlier but the stock filter I bought to replace it went to Pirate Don during maintenance on his bike as he too had a K&N so we swapped it out while we had it apart.

I do have 2 K&N LT filters if anyone wants them cheap They won't go back in my bike.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #23 of 35 Old Apr 21st, 2017, 12:17 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by davebullock View Post
BBY for filters. I have used them for years, and buy them buy the dozen for my LT and my son's LT. Mobil 1 15w-50, every 3500 miles. My bike just turned 165K, and uses no oil. I also change final drive fluid every oil change, which takes all of 5 minutes.
Dave,
You've got a 2000 LT with 165K...... Have you ever inspected or replaced the timing chain tension & guide rails?

Rand & Susan Hawksworth
2000 K1200LT Champagne
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post #24 of 35 Old May 3rd, 2017, 1:23 am
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Good discussion. I appreciate the suggestions and eill try BBY soon myself.
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post #25 of 35 Old May 3rd, 2017, 11:04 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Good discussion. I appreciate the suggestions and eill try BBY soon myself.
Welcome to the forum from Sugar Hill, GA. I used to live in Fairfax and go to the Fishnet festival in Front Royal for many years.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #26 of 35 Old Oct 13th, 2019, 7:27 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

Just bought my new-to-me 2009 K1200LT and want to change out all the fluids. I know oil and oil filter discussions can evoke passionate responses; however, when I bought my Dodge Ram truck I did extensive research and have always used Fleetguard StrataPore filters. To this day, when I drain the oil from this diesel-equipped truck, the oil is so clean I see through it. I've never seen any other oil filter do such an amazing job. So, with this background, I checked Fleetguard options and found that they offer StrataPore filter LF16011, which fits my bike. Has anyone else tried this filter?
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post #27 of 35 Old Oct 13th, 2019, 10:58 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

Like others have said, this topic is overdone sometimes. But IMO, I'd stay away from Fram filters. To me, it's not worth saving a few dollars buying a cheap filter. I went with Mahle. That, or OEM. In all my vehicles, I've concluded that, basically, oil is oil, but not so for filters. I run 15/50 synthetic in my RT with a good filter. I think the problem comes when people run synthetic oil for a year or 6000-7500 miles using a filter with only a paper element made for conventional oil.

2011 R1200RT (Titanium gray)

Past Rides:
2007 Honda Goldwing GL1800
2008 Honda GL1800 (Totaled by cager)
1994 Honda PC800 (Pacific Coast)
1984 Honda CB700NC (Nighthawk)
1980 Suzuki GS550 (one of my least favorites)
1977 Suzuki GT750 ("Water Buffalo")
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post #28 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 2:00 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Just bought my new-to-me 2009 K1200LT and want to change out all the fluids. I know oil and oil filter discussions can evoke passionate responses; however, when I bought my Dodge Ram truck I did extensive research and have always used Fleetguard StrataPore filters. To this day, when I drain the oil from this diesel-equipped truck, the oil is so clean I see through it. I've never seen any other oil filter do such an amazing job. So, with this background, I checked Fleetguard options and found that they offer StrataPore filter LF16011, which fits my bike. Has anyone else tried this filter?
I suspect any filter made or endorsed by Cummins is a good filter. The only concern would be that this is a painted filter and you need to be sure the paint will stand up to being immersed in hot oil. The OEM filter are unpainted for this reason. You are probably OK, but this filter appears to cost about twice as much as other filters that are perfectly fine for the LT.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #29 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 1:43 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

Upon review, I see that Cummins has unwisely called some of their oil filters "Fleetguard". Given the possible confusion with Fram Fleetguard filters, this is extremely unfortunate. I highly agree that Fram filters are to be actively avoided; they represent the worst saved $5 of a lifetime. Given that I'm a newbie, the forum won't let me post normal links to the Cummins StrataPore Fleetguard oil filter in question. These filters claim 100% filtration of 30 micron particles and from my experience with my diesel truck over the past 18 years, this is, if anything, understated. I repeat, my oil comes out of my diesel engine after 5K kilometres still transparent. Amazing. I have never seen this level of filtration on any other diesel engine ever. It speaks volumes of the filter.

The link to the Cummins filter is roughly:

catalog.cumminsfiltration.com/catalog/partsearch.do?&reqCmd=PartInformation&partNumber=L F16011&PartType=Lube&Part=-&criteria=part&_locale=en

I fully take the point regarding paint on the filter. I'll have to ponder the possibilities (paint stripper or wire wheel off the paint?) or go with a Bosch, Mahle, or OEM filter.
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post #30 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 3:54 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

That filter may not fit under the cover as it is almost 10 mm taller than the stock filter. The LT is notorious for making the oil dark right after an oil change as there is always a large amount of used oil trapped in the rocker cover. But even draining that it will darken quite quickly, just the nature of the beast. I would be quite interested in seeing if this filter will get you the same results on the LT. We go 6,000 miles on our oil changes.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #31 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 4:14 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by TwoUpCanuck View Post
Upon review, I see that Cummins has unwisely called some of their oil filters "Fleetguard". Given the possible confusion with Fram Fleetguard filters, this is extremely unfortunate. I highly agree that Fram filters are to be actively avoided; they represent the worst saved $5 of a lifetime. Given that I'm a newbie, the forum won't let me post normal links to the Cummins StrataPore Fleetguard oil filter in question. These filters claim 100% filtration of 30 micron particles and from my experience with my diesel truck over the past 18 years, this is, if anything, understated. I repeat, my oil comes out of my diesel engine after 5K kilometres still transparent. Amazing. I have never seen this level of filtration on any other diesel engine ever. It speaks volumes of the filter.

The link to the Cummins filter is roughly:

catalog.cumminsfiltration.com/catalog/partsearch.do?&reqCmd=PartInformation&partNumber=L F16011&PartType=Lube&Part=-&criteria=part&_locale=en

I fully take the point regarding paint on the filter. I'll have to ponder the possibilities (paint stripper or wire wheel off the paint?) or go with a Bosch, Mahle, or OEM filter.
The paint may not be a problem, but something to at least be aware of.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
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post #32 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 5:18 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

I'm not sure if Cummins or Fram used the name "Fleetguard" first. I know that when I worked for Cummins as an engineer in the 1980's they were using "Fleetguard"

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post #33 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 6:32 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
That filter may not fit under the cover as it is almost 10 mm taller than the stock filter. The LT is notorious for making the oil dark right after an oil change as there is always a large amount of used oil trapped in the rocker cover. But even draining that it will darken quite quickly, just the nature of the beast. I would be quite interested in seeing if this filter will get you the same results on the LT. We go 6,000 miles on our oil changes.
I do very regular oil changes on my LT. To the point of being ridiculous I know but I'm kind of doing it to see what happens. What I have been finding is that after I put new oil in, my bike won't smoke after being left on the side stand. I replaced the oil only about 200 kms ago but the oil in the sight glass still looks like a fresh jar of honey.
I also use a Ryco RMZ 108 filter every time, it's painted and I have never seen any degradation of the paint. But then again I am doing ridiculous oil changes.
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post #34 of 35 Old Oct 14th, 2019, 8:22 pm
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
I do very regular oil changes on my LT. To the point of being ridiculous I know but I'm kind of doing it to see what happens. What I have been finding is that after I put new oil in, my bike won't smoke after being left on the side stand. I replaced the oil only about 200 kms ago but the oil in the sight glass still looks like a fresh jar of honey.
I also use a Ryco RMZ 108 filter every time, it's painted and I have never seen any degradation of the paint. But then again I am doing ridiculous oil changes.
What do you expect to happen? Other than your wallet gets thinner much faster.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #35 of 35 Old Oct 15th, 2019, 4:26 am
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Re: Oil Filter question

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
What do you expect to happen? Other than your wallet gets thinner much faster.
All jokes aside I believe what I'm seeing is positive. The engine seems to be running quieter and as I have already said it seems to stop the smoke issue while left on the side stand.
At the end of the day oil changes are cheep compared to letting the bike run on dirty thin oil.
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