Relay substitutes - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 38 Old Mar 22nd, 2017, 10:32 pm Thread Starter
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Relay substitutes

I searched through several relay threads and most of them hinge on what relay is in what position in the electrics box. Got that so no problem. Looks like the black relay is no more and it has been replaced by the yellow relay, All mine are black except for the ABS warning ( blue) relay. I searched through the Echlin catalog at Napa and found more than 12 that fit that form factor however, no specifications for any of them and the prices vary greatly.

I want to refresh all those little 16 year old relays so has anyone come up with an actual part number that works? I purchased an AR 614 to take home and play with. The coil is a lower 81 Ohms to the original black relay of 103 Ohms so it will draw more current to close which may or may not be significant and I have no idea what the contacts are rated at.

There is an AR7246 listed as multi function but the coil blades look wider in the picture. Looking for someone who has found a workable non stealer replacement part number as they are all the same except for the ABS relay.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #2 of 38 Old Mar 24th, 2017, 6:34 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

Both of those are most likely 30 amp contacts which will work just fine. One was for fuel injection or horn and the 614 was a power window relay. Only way to really tell is to pop them open and look at the contact size compared to what you are replacing.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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post #3 of 38 Old Mar 24th, 2017, 9:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Both of those are most likely 30 amp contacts which will work just fine. One was for fuel injection or horn and the 614 was a power window relay. Only way to really tell is to pop them open and look at the contact size compared to what you are replacing.
Thanks John. I have been doing a lot of research on relays over the last few days and that form factor with the lock in tabs on the sides doesn't seem to be readily available, or i haven't found one yet other than EME at only a few $ less than the dealer.

I did find a suitable relay with a coil resistance that was slightly higher than the one I pulled out to test and the price was a whopping $3.38 each at quantity with a contact rating of 30/20A and 119 Ohm coil. Only catch was I had to buy 15 of the but I think I still got off easy. I will sacrifice one and take it apart to examine what is inside and if I am pleased, I will go ahead and swap out all 7 of that type and put the old ones in a box to have and to hold in case these don't hold up for any reason.

Part number is 5-1393292-8 and the site is onlinecomponents.com located in Arizona. I have some spares since I bought 15 of them and need 7 plus the 2 expensive ones I bought from the auto store.

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/te-...tml?p=44176076

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #4 of 38 Old Mar 28th, 2017, 9:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

OK, got my new relays and first thing I did was tear one apart to examine it. Then I pulled one of my originals apart and destroyed it so I could look at the contacts. They look pretty comparable although the ones shipped me have a diode for spike suppression versus the original with a resistor. I think I will just go ahead and swap out all 7 of this type as they should be a reasonable replacement for both the black and yellow relays. I have ordered the ABS flasher relay from EME as that turns out to be a NC relay with odd connections I could not find a non OEM replacement for.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #5 of 38 Old Mar 29th, 2017, 5:17 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

good info, keep us posted
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post #6 of 38 Old Mar 29th, 2017, 9:14 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Both of those are most likely 30 amp contacts which will work just fine. One was for fuel injection or horn and the 614 was a power window relay. Only way to really tell is to pop them open and look at the contact size compared to what you are replacing.
Well, I am going to make a recommendation to NOT use relays with diodes in them versus resistors for spike suppression.

John, the load shed relay diode smoked because I think the polarity is backwards for the coil in that circuit and it forward biassed the diode when I turned on the key to test out the new relays. Either that or I had infant mortality failure. I did see some smoke and I think there may have been some from the right hand multi switch but it was over the relay when it went so not sure yet. Put all the original relays back except the one I tore apart and left one new one in the horn spot.

Here is my dilemma. Tank off, key on, in neutral, side stand up and clutch pulled in. Push the start button and nothing happens. AM I missing something or did I do some additional damage I now need to find? I would think it would engage the starter under those conditions. Other than the missing tank, fuel pump and fuel sensor, it looks like everything is still working properly. ABS lights flashing, turn signals and brake lights work, horn, headlight is on so load relief relay in there is working.

This would have been a short on the coil side of the relief relay and not the main contacts so it didn't blow a fuse that I am aware of as the load relief relay appears to be working. Any ideas on why it won't crank or what I might have burned out that i need to fix? Schematic in clymer leaves a little to be desired IMO. better than nothing though.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #7 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 8:51 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

Im at work but check fuse F1 as that feeds the Load Relief relay with switched power. It is a 4 amp so it should have blown to protect the wiring.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #8 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 9:32 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
...
....
Here is my dilemma. Tank off, key on, in neutral, side stand up and clutch pulled in. Push the start button and nothing happens. AM I missing something or did I do some additional damage I now need to find? I would think it would engage the starter under those conditions. Other than the missing tank, fuel pump and fuel sensor, it looks like everything is still working properly. ABS lights flashing, turn signals and brake lights work, horn, headlight is on so load relief relay in there is working.

This would have been a short on the coil side of the relief relay and not the main contacts so it didn't blow a fuse that I am aware of as the load relief relay appears to be working. Any ideas on why it won't crank or what I might have burned out that i need to fix? Schematic in clymer leaves a little to be desired IMO. better than nothing though.
In addition to suggestion from JZEILER (John), do not forget system will behave like you describe above in these 2 conditions:
(1) Reverser Knob not fully to FORWARD position ..OR.. intermittent, or unplugged
(2) you have used GS911 to go into hall-Effect sensor timing menu and did NOT complete the procedure to its end.

Other than Motronic Fuse OR, Load-relief relay Fuse, there migh be a 3rd condition to list above:
(3) If you have the newer Blue Starter relay installed, it can also be a bit fussy about voltage spikes or shorts. We have a seen a few of these suddenly behave like you described above - the electronics circuitry inside that monitors system voltage appears to be a bit weak. In some cases, it just behaves as if Battery voltage is too weak and refuses to engage.

Although you have not specified above, I am assuming you have the RED Engine Temp warning ON after the ignition is switched ON - correct ??

-------------------------------------------------
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
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post #9 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 9:59 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Im at work but check fuse F1 as that feeds the Load Relief relay with switched power. It is a 4 amp so it should have blown to protect the wiring.
I will check that John but I think it is actually still working as I have headlights when I turn on the key. It was late and I was tired so I didn't get too far into it. There is a slight smell about the right multi function switch but I pulled the offending relay apart and the diode was split so I know it went down hard. I am at work now also and don't have the book in front of me but I think the wire I need to find is black/yel to the starter relay from the button. Still trying to figure out what wire is what so I can start testing some things.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #10 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 10:12 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
In addition to suggestion from JZEILER (John), do not forget system will behave like you describe above in these 2 conditions:
(1) Reverser Knob not fully to FORWARD position ..OR.. intermittent, or unplugged
(2) you have used GS911 to go into hall-Effect sensor timing menu and did NOT complete the procedure to its end.

Other than Motronic Fuse OR, Load-relief relay Fuse, there migh be a 3rd condition to list above:
(3) If you have the newer Blue Starter relay installed, it can also be a bit fussy about voltage spikes or shorts. We have a seen a few of these suddenly behave like you described above - the electronics circuitry inside that monitors system voltage appears to be a bit weak. In some cases, it just behaves as if Battery voltage is too weak and refuses to engage.

Although you have not specified above, I am assuming you have the RED Engine Temp warning ON after the ignition is switched ON - correct ??
I will double check the reverser know but the handle is currently off and I did a start and running pressure test after I replaced the external fuel lines and QD's and all worked then. Only thing different is I pulled the tank back off and swapped the relays ( silly me). Turned on the key and was about to start verifying that all the relay functions worked and after about 10 seconds, I saw smoke. Turned everything off and tracked it to the load relay.

There is a connection to the starter relay that is also connected to the load relay on the schematic so I wonder if I somehow did fry my relatively new blue relay. It would be nice if it was that simple although it is still $109 US from EME. Don't have the fuel pump hooked up so I can't tell if the pump relay is engaging when I flip the kill switch. I don't hear the relay click but I haven't measured that yet.

I will double check the temp light. I think it was on as I had 2 red lights and one was the oil. ABS was flashing normally. Dinner plans tonight so I may not get to it before the weekend but want to at least try and see if I fried the starter relay and get one on order. I will also run through the fuses to make sure I don't have any blown ones.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #11 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 10:21 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

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I will check that John but I think it is actually still working as I have headlights when I turn on the key. It was late and I was tired so I didn't get too far into it. There is a slight smell about the right multi function switch but I pulled the offending relay apart and the diode was split so I know it went down hard. I am at work now also and don't have the book in front of me but I think the wire I need to find is black/yel to the starter relay from the button. Still trying to figure out what wire is what so I can start testing some things.
If my memory is correct (no joke please...), I think you have an ABSII generation with the retrofitted BLUE starter relay.
If this assumption is correct, the wire you are looking for is a BLACK+YELLOW wire into Pin 7 of the Blue Starter Relay. Same wire exist with the older type BLACK starter relay but it is connected to different pin of this simpler Relay.

The same BLACK-YELLOW wire stays with same color into the Right side multi-function switch for Starter Button. However, the story is a bit convoluted as this signal also goes into the main reverser module.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #12 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 10:27 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
....
.....
There is a connection to the starter relay that is also connected to the load relay on the schematic so I wonder if I somehow did fry my relatively new blue relay. It would be nice if it was that simple although it is still $109 US from EME. Don't have the fuel pump hooked up so I can't tell if the pump relay is engaging when I flip the kill switch. I don't hear the relay click but I haven't measured that yet.
..
....
No need to put back the fuel tank for testing Priming signal: just install Voltmeter (on proper connector) AND check for 2 secs voltage UP than down, just after ignition ON. Motronic EFI on these does not know or care if fuel pump is plugged or not (no error logged). Only the air-box removal causes a minor error as the ambient temp sensor is often unplugged with air-box removed (but engine would still start).

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #13 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 10:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
If my memory is correct (no joke please...), I think you have an ABSII generation with the retrofitted BLUE starter relay.
If this assumption is correct, the wire you are looking for is a BLACK+YELLOW wire into Pin 7 of the Blue Starter Relay. Same wire exist with the older type BLACK starter relay but it is connected to different pin of this simpler Relay.

The same BLACK-YELLOW wire stays with same color into the Right side multi-function switch for Starter Button. However, the story is a bit convoluted as this signal also goes into the main reverser module.
Yes, ABSII with retrofit. I did see that connection to the reverser on the schematic. So, that BLACK+YELLOW should have a positive voltage on it when I depress the start button assuming all the interlocks are met. If I see a signal and my starter doesn't turn, is my relay fried or do I need to also verify any other signal in conjunction with the start pulse?

There was a sound I heard once I replaced the load relay like the starter was groaning softly as I turned on the key( not trying to crank) but that was only once , maybe twice and has stopped. This happened without me pressing the start button.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #14 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 1:38 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

Additional information on the part I ordered. Called the supplier and talked with their tech support. I found out that the differentiation in a relay with diode and one with a resistor is coded in the part number.

For instance

A relay with a part number of V23074-A1001-A402 based on the 1001 or the leading 1 would contain a resistor.

A relay with a part number of V23074-A2001-A402 based on the 2001 or the leading 2 would contain a diode.

So, the part number I ordered (5-1393292-8) was equivalent to the second part number so I got what I ordered and would say this is not a suitable replacement as the polarity on the socket may actually provide a forward bias to the diode where the resistor would not care. They do not stock the equivalent part number which would be 4-1904124-2 and the only distributor he had for it was Mouser Electronics with a long lead time and a 460 piece minimum order so that is likely a dead end. Now I know what to look for if I get other non OEM relays in the future. No diodes.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #15 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 6:20 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

If you have a headlight with the key on then the load shed relay is working and has a good connection to the starter side of the starter relay. If the headlight does not go out when you press the starter button then the starter relay is not passing 12v to the starter. The Diode blowing on the load shed relay would not have an affect on the starter relay at all. Time to look for another reason.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #16 of 38 Old Mar 30th, 2017, 9:19 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
If you have a headlight with the key on then the load shed relay is working and has a good connection to the starter side of the starter relay. If the headlight does not go out when you press the starter button then the starter relay is not passing 12v to the starter. The Diode blowing on the load shed relay would not have an affect on the starter relay at all. Time to look for another reason.
Checked all the fuses and they all measure good. No voltage at the fuel pump plug for prime interval, key on and any position of the kill switch.

Answering Sailors question, Engine temp light does not come on in neutral, stand up, in or out of reverse. Something is different as I remember doing the test for you and the light did come on.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #17 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 6:26 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Checked all the fuses and they all measure good. No voltage at the fuel pump plug for prime interval, key on and any position of the kill switch.

Answering Sailors question, Engine temp light does not come on in neutral, stand up, in or out of reverse. Something is different as I remember doing the test for you and the light did come on.
After ignition ON, the engine-temp-light and the fuel-pump priming sequence are BOTH related. If you see neither, Motronic EFI is off the line (as if the sidestand was down with gear engaged). This means the starter safety interlocks is active and nothing will ever start in this mode (no starter, no injector pulse...).

Of course the Kill switch will also actives the same starter interlocks (and engine temp light off), so we need to keep in mind this if you saw (or expect) damage to the right hand switch assy.

P.S.:
The K1200LT has one more Relay that we do not have on K1200RS/GT. It is called "Emergency shutoff" Relay and is located separate in lower Electrical junction box (where a bunch of large connectors meet). There is a poor photo in CLYMER about this.

This one is an important Relay in the function of Starter interlocks. Hopefully JZEILER will chime as he is more familiar with these specifics of K1200LT.

-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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post #18 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:01 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
After ignition ON, the engine-temp-light and the fuel-pump priming sequence are BOTH related. If you see neither, Motronic EFI is off the line (as if the sidestand was down with gear engaged). This means the starter safety interlocks is active and nothing will ever start in this mode (no starter, no injector pulse...).

Of course the Kill switch will also actives the same starter interlocks (and engine temp light off), so we need to keep in mind this if you saw (or expect) damage to the right hand switch assy.

P.S.:
The K1200LT has one more Relay that we do not have on K1200RS/GT. It is called "Emergency shutoff" Relay and is located separate in lower Electrical junction box (where a bunch of large connectors meet). There is a poor photo in CLYMER about this.

This one is an important Relay in the function of Starter interlocks. Hopefully JZEILER will chime as he is more familiar with these specifics of K1200LT.
I am aware of the emergency shut off relay located next to the brake light relay behind the connector block. I changed those two out also with all the others and they are now back to original relays. Is this the relay that is activated by any of the interlocks being active?

Update. Luckily I labeled all the relays so I know which ones were in what slot. I just pulled apart the emergency shut off relay and the diode in that one is also fried. I have the OEM relay back in place and have tested its function i the brake light position but I have no signal in the ESO relay for the coil pins so I have another direction to look at when I get home from work today.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; Mar 31st, 2017 at 9:18 am.
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post #19 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 11:05 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Of course the Kill switch will also actives the same starter interlocks (and engine temp light off), so we need to keep in mind this if you saw (or expect) damage to the right hand switch assy.
Brought my book to work so I could look at the schematics during lax minutes. What I see is there are 2 wires on the right multi switch associated with the interlocks. My Clymer is page 596 1999-2000 LT models reverse. Without measuring, I am going to make general assumptions for later testing that the GREEN+RED wire between the MFS and the ESO relay is V+ to the relay and is controlled possibly by the kill switch as a master control for the interlocks?

I don't know what logic is in the reverse controller but it must be a logical loop of the remaining interlocs with a path to ground being, side stand switch, reverse switch, neutral switch etc....

Assumption #2 With no +12V on the GREEN+RED with the key on, the entire interlock circuit is dead as the relay will never engage.

Steps:
1: verify +12V is on the GREEN wire leading to the right MFS with key on. If no +12, ignition switch damage may be suspect however, load relief relay functions so assuming +12 is present but verify.

2. verify +12 on GREEN+RED wire with key on and kill switch in center position. Should vary with left and right position change. If no +12, right MFS is suspect.

3. If 1 and 2 are present, possible reverse controller damage as it looks like the rest of the interlocks pass through there. Verify interlock switches one at a time to make sure no damage there.

If by chance the GREEN+BROWN is supplying the +12 then the right MFS would be supplying the path to ground but since BMW uses BROWN for ground, I am assuming that the GREEN+BROWN is a path to ground and GREEN+RED is the positive voltage.

EDIT: It looks like the GREEN+BROWN also connects to the motronic relay so that is another one I need to pull apart to inspect. Also verify +12 on the GREEN+BLACK wire on the motronic socket.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #20 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 11:40 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

New part number and distributor. 4-1904124-2 crosses from V23074-A1001-A402

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiin...me=TYC&utm=704

Distributor has a minimum QTY 3 order so I bought 10 and will see what I get BEFORE i install any of them.

AGAIN, SUBSTITUTE RELAYS WITH DIODES INSTEAD OF RESISTORS ARE NOT COMPATIBLE AS REPLACEMENTS AS BMW DOES NOT SEEM TO MAINTAIN A WIRING STANDARD TO SUPPORT THEM AND IT RESULTS IN A FORWARD BIAS CONDITION AND DAMAGE CAN RESULT. JUST A NOTE FOR READERS OF THIS THREAD WHO MAY BE LOOKING FOR A LESS EXPENSIVE REPLACEMENT AS I WAS.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #21 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 1:10 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
New part number and distributor. 4-1904124-2 crosses from V23074-A1001-A402

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiin...me=TYC&utm=704

Distributor has a minimum QTY 3 order so I bought 10 and will see what I get BEFORE i install any of them.

AGAIN, SUBSTITUTE RELAYS WITH DIODES INSTEAD OF RESISTORS ARE NOT COMPATIBLE AS REPLACEMENTS AS BMW DOES NOT SEEM TO MAINTAIN A WIRING STANDARD TO SUPPORT THEM AND IT RESULTS IN A FORWARD BIAS CONDITION AND DAMAGE CAN RESULT. JUST A NOTE FOR READERS OF THIS THREAD WHO MAY BE LOOKING FOR A LESS EXPENSIVE REPLACEMENT AS I WAS.
The other option is to not mess with working relays and should one fail suck it up and buy the parts from BMW and sleep easy.

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post #22 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 2:22 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
The other option is to not mess with working relays and should one fail suck it up and buy the parts from BMW and sleep easy.

Awww, comeon Matt, I have seen several relays fail lately and they are all 17 years old. One small oversight and maybe a burned out multi switch or damaged reverse controller and you are all over me.

I could poke at your engineering side getting the best of you with your clutch but I will leave that one alone. No one wants something bad to happen simply because you are trying to do a extra good job or take steps to prevent something that hasn't happened yet. It did cross my mind that the diode needed to be in a reverse biased configuration but didn't for a second think that BMW would wire it opposite to that. It is a simple thing in a plastic plug where you would simply flip the holes they wires go in. GAAHH! I hope it isn't the reverse controller. I can deal with finding another multi switch on Ebay. Simple to swap.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #23 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 6:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

Update. Did additional testing and the right MFS is not forwarding the +12 on the green wire, to the green+red down to the emergency shut off relay and motronic relay. Applied a jumper across the green and green+red and what was dead came alive. Removed the right MFS and tested the kill switch and it was totally dead. For those of you who want to see the inside of the right multi function switch, I am attaching pictures and one is of the totally fried contacts inside the water proof button I disassembled. I will be ordering a replacement from Ebay shortly.
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Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #24 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:02 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Awww, comeon Matt, I have seen several relays fail lately and they are all 17 years old. One small oversight and maybe a burned out multi switch or damaged reverse controller and you are all over me.

I could poke at your engineering side getting the best of you with your clutch but I will leave that one alone. No one wants something bad to happen simply because you are trying to do a extra good job or take steps to prevent something that hasn't happened yet. It did cross my mind that the diode needed to be in a reverse biased configuration but didn't for a second think that BMW would wire it opposite to that. It is a simple thing in a plastic plug where you would simply flip the holes they wires go in. GAAHH! I hope it isn't the reverse controller. I can deal with finding another multi switch on Ebay. Simple to swap.
Just trying to help you learn from my mistake in trying to fix something that wasn't broken. LOL.
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post #25 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:07 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Update. Did additional testing and the right MFS is not forwarding the +12 on the green wire, to the green+red down to the emergency shut off relay and motronic relay. Applied a jumper across the green and green+red and what was dead came alive. Removed the right MFS and tested the kill switch and it was totally dead. For those of you who want to see the inside of the right multi function switch, I am attaching pictures and one is of the totally fried contacts inside the water proof button I disassembled. I will be ordering a replacement from Ebay shortly.
Ouch.
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post #26 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:12 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

Looks like you found the issue. I presume none of the OEM relays have a diode in them. I will open up a few of the spares I have and check.

So is the kill switch a mechanical device that operates a push button? I have never had one apart. I did source the push buttons with the help of a guy in Brazil a while back and ordered a few to send a couple to him.

Looking at my schematics I find it interesting that the closed kill switch contacts gave up the ghost before the 4 amp fuse blew when the diode was forward biased. Guess those contacts were not rated for four amps or you have a bigger fuse in that slot than a 4 amp one. Might want to double check that and let us know.

OK I checked the current rating for the sourced switches and they are only 0.1 amp. So if the sourced ones are equivalent to OEM that could explain why they fried and the fuse did not blow.

Here is the link to the switches: http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...1159-ND/417544

John
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K4AN

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post #27 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 8:28 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Looks like you found the issue. I presume none of the OEM relays have a diode in them. I will open up a few of the spares I have and check.

So is the kill switch a mechanical device that operates a push button? I have never had one apart. I did source the push buttons with the help of a guy in Brazil a while back and ordered a few to send a couple to him.
Yes, was a little surprised to see the mechanics of it. it is two vertical contacts with a plastic housing over top with little plastic slanted protrusions that will push the contacts together as the switch is depressed. Center position is depressed, left or right is open. That makes or breaks the 12V contact to the emergency shut off relay.

I still want to replace all 7 in that cluster and have ordered 10 more that I believe will be resistor based and no, none of the OEM relays have a diode. It was short sighted of me to replace them without testing but I did measure the coil contacts and got no difference forward or backward which was unexpected so I was thinking possibly a xener diod that would not conduct until well over 12V and my meter would not trigger that. I have to admit, I was wrong and it will cost me.

One of the threads I found indicated that the black relay is no longer available ( x18) and has been replaced by the yellow (x58) which I assume is a stronger version of the black and will function properly in any position requiring the black relay. No need to open any of yours. The part number indicates if it is a diode or resistor and all the BMW K1200LT relays are resistor based.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #28 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 9:00 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Yes, was a little surprised to see the mechanics of it. it is two vertical contacts with a plastic housing over top with little plastic slanted protrusions that will push the contacts together as the switch is depressed. Center position is depressed, left or right is open. That makes or breaks the 12V contact to the emergency shut off relay.

I still want to replace all 7 in that cluster and have ordered 10 more that I believe will be resistor based and no, none of the OEM relays have a diode. It was short sighted of me to replace them without testing but I did measure the coil contacts and got no difference forward or backward which was unexpected so I was thinking possibly a xener diod that would not conduct until well over 12V and my meter would not trigger that. I have to admit, I was wrong and it will cost me.

One of the threads I found indicated that the black relay is no longer available ( x18) and has been replaced by the yellow (x58) which I assume is a stronger version of the black and will function properly in any position requiring the black relay. No need to open any of yours. The part number indicates if it is a diode or resistor and all the BMW K1200LT relays are resistor based.
Good information here on the "sexes" of diode protected relays.

https://www.delcity.net/store/Relays..._73578.h_73862

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post #29 of 38 Old Mar 31st, 2017, 9:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Looks like you found the issue. I presume none of the OEM relays have a diode in them. I will open up a few of the spares I have and check.

So is the kill switch a mechanical device that operates a push button? I have never had one apart. I did source the push buttons with the help of a guy in Brazil a while back and ordered a few to send a couple to him.

Looking at my schematics I find it interesting that the closed kill switch contacts gave up the ghost before the 4 amp fuse blew when the diode was forward biased. Guess those contacts were not rated for four amps or you have a bigger fuse in that slot than a 4 amp one. Might want to double check that and let us know.

OK I checked the current rating for the sourced switches and they are only 0.1 amp. So if the sourced ones are equivalent to OEM that could explain why they fried and the fuse did not blow.

Here is the link to the switches: K12C 1 5N C&K | Switches | DigiKey
Looking at that replacement switch, I would say it is the starter button switch and not the kill switch IF the representative picture is accurate. Here is the setup with all things apart again. The top of the kill switch is a very small nylon tit that gets depressed as the red switch is moved left or right. That does seem backwards though as I placed 12V on the link in and out and got the temp light on. It is very small and probably damaged from disassembly so it may pull the contacts together when in the middle and let them fall apart on either side. I have a charred mess so difficult to see. It does seem that in the center position, it passes 12V from the green wire to the GREEN+RED to the emergency relay and on either side, it does not. The switch controls the green input and GREEN+RED output only.

The switches all look different so the kill switch is not the same as the BC or starter button.
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2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #30 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 8:26 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

New part number 4-1904124-2 received and verified. It is the exact same relay as before only with a resistor. 30A contacts 100 Ohm coil resistance ( measured).

Reference part number on relay
V23074-A1001-A402

Ordered from TTI at $2.44 each, minimum order is 3

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiin...me=TYC&utm=704

Shipping $7.50
Handling $1.50
Shipped from FT. Worth Texas
Total cost per relay at Qty 3 is $5.47

I bought 10 so my cost was $3.55 per relay compared to the dealers $21.79 each.
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1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #31 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 8:55 am
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
New part number 4-1904124-2 received and verified. It is the exact same relay as before only with a resistor. 30A contacts 100 Ohm coil resistance ( measured).

Reference part number on relay
V23074-A1001-A402

Ordered from TTI at $2.44 each, minimum order is 3

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiin...me=TYC&utm=704

Shipping $7.50
Handling $1.50
Shipped from FT. Worth Texas
Total cost per relay at Qty 3 is $5.47

I bought 10 so my cost was $3.55 per relay compared to the dealers $21.79 each.
So you paid $33.50 to replace a $22 relay?


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post #32 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 9:17 am Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
So you paid $33.50 to replace a $22 relay?

No, I paid $33.50 to replace $154 worth of relays ( 7 ) with 3 spares. Even if I only needed one, it is still less expensive to order 3 and replace one with 2 spares than to buy one from the dealer.

I only have one yellow relay but I pulled it apart and looked at the contact size and would with my calibrated eye ball say that this substitute would be good for any of the 7 relays of this form factor. The blue ABS indicator relay is a different configuration so I just bought that one from EME. The rest will be swapped out with new relays. I did not destroy the yellow relay I have but with magnification and good light, I can see the contacts show significant signs of metal transfer and wear after 16 years and that is why I am opting to replace them all. I just wish I hadn't made the mistake of using relays with diodes as the resulting damage makes this a more expensive venture but still less than the cost of all new dealer relays.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #33 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 1:08 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
No, I paid $33.50 to replace $154 worth of relays ( 7 ) with 3 spares. Even if I only needed one, it is still less expensive to order 3 and replace one with 2 spares than to buy one from the dealer.
...
....
I just wish I hadn't made the mistake of using relays with diodes as the resulting damage makes this a more expensive venture but still less than the cost of all new dealer relays.
Gordon,
I see and appreciate your point here - maybe because I am the same type of person.
The majority here (maybe 95%) can benefits from the experiments and research of the few (5%).... although it would appear we can get nasty remarks on occasion.

I am sure many here can understand that getting ahead with new ideas does carry risk of failures.
Like the famous Thomas Edison once tried to explain some dumb journalist (about his light bulb experiments): "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

Like MATT (Voyager), I can also see the problem from the other side of the coin and laugh at trying a "too expensive" or "too complex" solution to a problem. In this particular case, the cost was minimal... although the risk of burning down part of the electrical system had to be kept in mind from the beginning of any similar experiment.
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-------------------------------------------------
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post #34 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 2:50 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Gordon,
I see and appreciate your point here - maybe because I am the same type of person.
The majority here (maybe 95%) can benefits from the experiments and research of the few (5%).... although it would appear we can get nasty remarks on occasion.

I am sure many here can understand that getting ahead with new ideas does carry risk of failures.
Like the famous Thomas Edison once tried to explain some dumb journalist (about his light bulb experiments): "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

Like MATT (Voyager), I can also see the problem from the other side of the coin and laugh at trying a "too expensive" or "too complex" solution to a problem. In this particular case, the cost was minimal... although the risk of burning down part of the electrical system had to be kept in mind from the beginning of any similar experiment.
John, I try not to over think things, sometimes a failing of mine and I also have a background in electronics so I am aware of the function of a diode and its purpose in the relay. I tried to measure the forward and reverse bias resistance of the coil and I saw no difference. I guess the parallel voltage drop over the coil and the diode from my meter was not enough to trigger it in forward bias enough to measure. I didn't think for a moment that a standard form factor relay socket would not be wired in a standard way and that was my fault ( sigh ). I could have measured the socket and checked the orientation of the diode in the relay to double check and it would not have burned out my kill switch. Luckly I found one for $50 US on ebay so it is a lesson learned and I am passing on what I have learned to anyone else that might be looking for a less expensive way to update or replace aging components in an effort to either save money and or improve reliability. Matt's issue is criminal in my opinion. Any decent shop should be able to machine a parallel surface so that wasn't his fault for wanting to try and resurface his old components where the rest of us toss them and pay heavily for new or re-use them with significant dishing. I commend that effort. Neither of us was entirely successful though.

At some personal expense beyond the project scope, I have ( almost ) all new relays along with that new to me multi function switch. The result is the part number along with a supplier for a replacement relay ( with resistor) for the yellow relay and that is good for any of the existing black or yellow relays under the tank for anyone who balks at the $22 price of a $3 relay from the dealer. It is probably also good for the windscreen relays but I haven't found that one yet to check. Blue relay is special so I just bit the bullet and bought that one. The silicone radiator hose kit also seem t be a good deal for those wanting to replace aging rubber.
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post #35 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 7:10 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Gordon,
I see and appreciate your point here - maybe because I am the same type of person.
The majority here (maybe 95%) can benefits from the experiments and research of the few (5%).... although it would appear we can get nasty remarks on occasion.

I am sure many here can understand that getting ahead with new ideas does carry risk of failures.
Like the famous Thomas Edison once tried to explain some dumb journalist (about his light bulb experiments): "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

Like MATT (Voyager), I can also see the problem from the other side of the coin and laugh at trying a "too expensive" or "too complex" solution to a problem. In this particular case, the cost was minimal... although the risk of burning down part of the electrical system had to be kept in mind from the beginning of any similar experiment.
I am trusting that Gordon knows me well enough to know I was just pulling his chain and having some fun.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
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1976 Kawasaki KH400
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post #36 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 7:23 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
John, I try not to over think things, sometimes a failing of mine and I also have a background in electronics so I am aware of the function of a diode and its purpose in the relay. I tried to measure the forward and reverse bias resistance of the coil and I saw no difference. I guess the parallel voltage drop over the coil and the diode from my meter was not enough to trigger it in forward bias enough to measure. I didn't think for a moment that a standard form factor relay socket would not be wired in a standard way and that was my fault ( sigh ). I could have measured the socket and checked the orientation of the diode in the relay to double check and it would not have burned out my kill switch. Luckly I found one for $50 US on ebay so it is a lesson learned and I am passing on what I have learned to anyone else that might be looking for a less expensive way to update or replace aging components in an effort to either save money and or improve reliability. Matt's issue is criminal in my opinion. Any decent shop should be able to machine a parallel surface so that wasn't his fault for wanting to try and resurface his old components where the rest of us toss them and pay heavily for new or re-use them with significant dishing. I commend that effort. Neither of us was entirely successful though.

At some personal expense beyond the project scope, I have ( almost ) all new relays along with that new to me multi function switch. The result is the part number along with a supplier for a replacement relay ( with resistor) for the yellow relay and that is good for any of the existing black or yellow relays under the tank for anyone who balks at the $22 price of a $3 relay from the dealer. It is probably also good for the windscreen relays but I haven't found that one yet to check. Blue relay is special so I just bit the bullet and bought that one. The silicone radiator hose kit also seem t be a good deal for those wanting to replace aging rubber.
I am not sure how you would easily test a diode in parallel with a coil (or a resistor) for that matter. You are testing with DC current. A coil looks like a short circuit (0 ohm) at zero frequency. So I think the diode or resistor (unless it is a nearly zero ohm resistor) is going to be invisible when in parallel with a near zero ohm wire (the coil at DC excitation).

I think you would need a frequency generate and oscilloscope to tease out what is in parallel with a coil. You need to get to a frequency where the reactance of the coil is large compared to the resistor or diode in parallel. However, this isn't trivial as you then have the stray capacitances of the components coming into play.

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post #37 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 7:38 pm
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Re: Relay substitutes

Quick and easy (well maybe not quick nor easy) way is to power the coil with 12V DC through a 1/2 amp fuse. If the fuse blows with one polarity but not the other it has a diode. If it doesn't blow with either polarity it has a resistor.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #38 of 38 Old Apr 5th, 2017, 8:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Relay substitutes

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I am not sure how you would easily test a diode in parallel with a coil (or a resistor) for that matter. You are testing with DC current. A coil looks like a short circuit (0 ohm) at zero frequency. So I think the diode or resistor (unless it is a nearly zero ohm resistor) is going to be invisible when in parallel with a near zero ohm wire (the coil at DC excitation).

I think you would need a frequency generate and oscilloscope to tease out what is in parallel with a coil. You need to get to a frequency where the reactance of the coil is large compared to the resistor or diode in parallel. However, this isn't trivial as you then have the stray capacitances of the components coming into play.
Matt, the coil in parallel with the diode measures 120 ohms in both directions. With a DC multimeter, I can test a diode with low resistance in one direction and high resistance in the other. I see no such change when switching the leads back and forth on the relay contacts. The coil does not measure 0 ohms or I would be measuring 0 ohms in both directions regardless of a diode being there or not. I would think I could still see the effect of the diode by switching the leads back and forth but I get 120 ohms in both directions. It is a parallel circuit so both elements would show the same voltage across them and if the meter is able to provide enough voltage ( greater than .6v for silicone ) to test a diode, I should see it change or at least I think I should. I don't. In an AC circuit I would agree with you. A diode in parallel with a capacitor can be tested, you just have to wait for the capacitor to charge and reach "infinite" resistance before you can measure the diode. Why not a coil unless the coil resistance was far lower than the forward bias of the diode? 120 Ohms is pretty high FB for a diode.

Those are my thoughts on it and I am not an engineer but these are simple components and it is a parallel DC circuit so it should break down to two parallel resistors only one would change depending on the direction of polarity. If you have an explanation, I would like to hear it. I have the destroyed relay that I can disassemble further to disconnect one end of the diode and see if out of circuit testing was provided different results.

EDIT: I pulled the diode out of the relay and it tests as I would expect showing forward and reverse bias however on the diode setting. When I set the meter for ohms and try to measure the diode, I get no change, only an open circuit. I think I can conclude that the meter is not using enough voltage to cross the forward bias threshold so the coil in parallel with the diode shows the same measurement in both directions.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; Apr 6th, 2017 at 9:04 am.
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