Free Beer to the person... - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 20 Old Mar 11th, 2017, 5:57 pm Thread Starter
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Free Beer to the person...

... who correctly identifies the issue. (Beer to be consumed at the MOA, SLC Beer Garden)

Long time listener first time caller!
Basics: '05 LT. Prior PO had the steeler install a hidden switch for the Moto Lights, had a short/voltage drain at one point and believe that I crossed the + and -. Fried the hidden switch.

Problem: Turn signal cancel button non-op!

During maintenance removed the switch from the bike. The connections were made under the tank, back side of the computer, inside the box. With the switch removed, Cancel button is still non-op.

Turn signals (all electronics) still operate as normal, Hazards will cancel turn signal, No blown fuses. Suspect the relay is good as the signals operate. no crisp toasty wires can be found.

Help me obi wan you're my only hope! Suggestions?

Hoss
'Stupidity has a knack of getting its way.' --Albert Camus
'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
MOA, IBA, EXR & RCB and TMI
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post #2 of 20 Old Mar 11th, 2017, 7:08 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
... who correctly identifies the issue. (Beer to be consumed at the MOA, SLC Beer Garden)

Long time listener first time caller!
Basics: '05 LT. Prior PO had the steeler install a hidden switch for the Moto Lights, had a short/voltage drain at one point and believe that I crossed the + and -. Fried the hidden switch.

Problem: Turn signal cancel button non-op!

During maintenance removed the switch from the bike. The connections were made under the tank, back side of the computer, inside the box. With the switch removed, Cancel button is still non-op.

Turn signals (all electronics) still operate as normal, Hazards will cancel turn signal, No blown fuses. Suspect the relay is good as the signals operate. no crisp toasty wires can be found.

Help me obi wan you're my only hope! Suggestions?
Good luck with that. I will say up front that I will not be winning that beer. I looked in my Clymer to see if it distinguished anything on the multi function switches for tracing and I did not find such a breakout. Someone who may have one and can check the wire color from the cancel switch to the plug and harness might help some. At least then the path and where it goes might be traceable. I assume that you have already verified that the cancel switch is making proper contact when pressed.

FTC LTL with over 1400 posts LOL

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #3 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 7:30 am
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Sounds like the dealer installed an AutoSwitch. If you have removed the switch did you reconnect the wires that it tied into. You can find wiring instructions here. Autoswitch - The Switch Eliminator | www.autoswitch.com look under retired models for diagrams.

Pat Rourke
White Lake,MI.
2002 K1200 LTC, Champange

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post #4 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 9:28 am Thread Starter
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Thanks Gordon, that was one of the first places I checked... Don't get the FTC LTL comment... must be an inside joke...

Pat, great thought, unfortunately there is nothing for you behind door #3 HA!

Looks like the steeler installed a AS-5NB. no snipping or bridging involved. it simply taps into the bike... per the install instructions "Autoswitch only taps into existing lines and does not affect any electrical circuits."

In the photo, the Orange wire from the Autoswitch was connected to the Green wire...

EDIT: In the photo, the wire indicated was used for 12+ in lieu of connecting to the battery at the connection from the switch on the bar, to the Brown/white the steeler connected the Orange from the Autoswitch (negative loop from the cancel button).
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Hoss
'Stupidity has a knack of getting its way.' --Albert Camus
'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
MOA, IBA, EXR & RCB and TMI

Last edited by shoswell; Mar 12th, 2017 at 3:30 pm.
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post #5 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 10:43 am
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
Thanks Gordon, that was one of the first places I checked... Don't get the FTC LTL comment... must be an inside joke...

Pat, great thought, unfortunately there is nothing for you behind door #3 HA!

Looks like the steeler installed a AS-5NB. no snipping or bridging involved. it simply taps into the bike... per the install instructions "Autoswitch only taps into existing lines and does not affect any electrical circuits."

In the photo, the Orange wire from the Autoswitch was connected to the Green wire...
I hope that JZEILER (John) will also jump in as he knows a lot more than me about the specific wiring of the k1200LT.
Because I am familiar with wiring of K1200RS, I will give it a try... meanwhile you will have some more ideas.

Not being on site to do more electrical tests, I see 3 possible paths to eliminate variables here:
(1) either the cancel button just happened to become intermittent (sticky, hard) over time. I have seen this problem on similar switches for many BMW models between 2001-2004. This can be tested in a static manner with right switch assy unplugged (pin 1 is CANCEL having Brown/White wire ..AND.. Pin 10 is the common Ground having Brown wire). You are basically testing for continuity between these 2 when CANCEL is pressed (Ohm function with switch unplugged).

On a 2005, the switch connector should look like 2 attached pictures. On all K1200RS, this connector is located in lower electrical junction box (under tank), HOWEVER for the K1200LT (2005) I am not 100% sure of location: my BMW shop manual (on CD) shows it under nose fairing under/below windshield electrical motor (see last attached photo / diagram).

(2) NEXT Possibility: the wiring between CANCEL (at switch junction on harness side) and the "smart" Flasher Relay is damaged (Brown/White wire from connector goes to Pin 4 of the flasher Relay.

(3) NEXT Possibility: The electronics in the Flasher Relay has been damaged by some recent work. This is not an ordinary simple flasher Relay so you cannot just replace with an automotive unit. This is the last troubleshooting option as I do NOT see a high probability (given that other flasher functions appear to work... If I understand your post)
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-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."

Last edited by sailor; Mar 12th, 2017 at 3:31 pm.
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post #6 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 12:40 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
Thanks Gordon, that was one of the first places I checked... Don't get the FTC LTL comment... must be an inside joke...

Pat, great thought, unfortunately there is nothing for you behind door #3 HA!

Looks like the steeler installed a AS-5NB. no snipping or bridging involved. it simply taps into the bike... per the install instructions "Autoswitch only taps into existing lines and does not affect any electrical circuits."

In the photo, the Orange wire from the Autoswitch was connected to the Green wire...
It looks like you have it apart so while you are working through Sailors information, if you can locate the flasher relay and that green wire your arrow points to is the cancel buttons connection to the flasher, I suggest you check to see if you have a working connection from the cancel button to the relay connection ( not a short or open at the relay ) assuming that there is a wire that goes from the cancel button directly to the flasher relay and it is in fact that green wire. I do not know what I am talking about as i have no diagram with a color code but if you can verify that you have the cancel signal at the flasher, then I would go with Sailors possible suspicion that the flasher relay was damaged in part. Expensive little part unless there is some after market equivalent replacement. No picture on MAX BMW site.

FTC LTL First Time Caller Long Time Listener with over 1400 posts. I found that amusing.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #7 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 1:40 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
....
Expensive little part unless there is some after market equivalent replacement. No picture on MAX BMW site.
Gordon,
These so-called "smart" flasher relays are made by DELPHI and are available outside of your dealers, but somewhat limited numbers of places. A good source here if you eventually need to buy new (about $28 cheaper than BMW dealer):
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Re...-p/rel-867.htm

Personally I would eliminate everything else before buying a new Relay. And even then, if it turns out to be the Relay, I would go to EBAY and buy a used one for much less. For the last 15 years on various BMW forums, I can say these flasher Relays have been quite reliable. Hence, I would have no concerns in buying used (gee... I could probably buy 4 used for the price of 1 new).

The exact same Relay was used on many Boxers models between 1994-2003 (R100xx, R1150xx, R1200C) so you can find a lot of these on EBAY. Sometimes the parting bike guys on EBAY will sell all the bike relays together... not 1 relay alone, of course ;-)

Although these can be found having 2 possible BMW part numbers, they are equivalent based on MAX-BMW parts fiche.
Old: 61312306979 is replaced / superseded by new number: 61317679867 (as sold by BMW and EuroMoto-Electrics)
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-------------------------------------------------
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
Think twice before you hit [SUBMIT REPLY] - famous quote by another member:
"The value of this board is not founded on dismissing the ideas of others, but by posting to share our experiences and what we've learned from them."

Last edited by sailor; Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:12 pm.
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post #8 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 2:31 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

in my experience, the signal cancel signal from the right multi switch to the flasher unit is a ground. (Button shows a low to the unit).
You can
Eliminate the wireing between the cancel button & the flasher unit by accessing pin 4 of the
Unit connector, actuate the button and check for continuity between pin 4 & ground.

P.S. You'd be looking for a brown/white wire.
Green wires are voltage +

Last edited by Rhawk2; Mar 12th, 2017 at 2:44 pm. Reason: Brown/white, not yellow.
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post #9 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 2:33 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Gordon,
These so-called "smart" flasher relays are made by DELPHI and are available outside of your dealers, but somewhat limited numbers of places. A good source here if you eventually need to buy new (about $28 cheaper than BMW dealer):
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Re...-p/rel-867.htm

Personally I would eliminate everything else before buying a new Relay. And even then, if it turns out to be the Relay, I would go to EBAY and buy a used one for much less. For the last 15 years on various BMW forums, I can say these flasher Relays have been quite reliable. Hence, I would have no concerns in buying used (gee... I could probably buy 4 used for the price of 1 new).

The exact same Relay was used on many Boxers models between 1994-2003 (R100xx, R1150xx, R1200C) so you can find a lot of these on EBAY. Sometimes the parting bike guys on EBAY will sell all the bike relays together... not 1 relay alone, of course ;-)

Although these can be found having 2 possible BMW part numbers, they are equivalent based on MAX-BMW parts fiche.
Old: 61312306979 is replaced / superseded by new number: 61317679867 (as sold by BMW and EuroMoto-Electrics)
That picture on EME is what I was expecting. There are lots of wires showing connected to that thing on the schematic so not surprising to see 12 pins. As usual, you have great information.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #10 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 3:04 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

According to the autoswitch diagram, the Red wire should connect to a green or red wire, orange should go to brown.
I'm surprised that the switch ever worked with the orange connected to green.

Rand & Susan Hawksworth
2000 K1200LT Champagne
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post #11 of 20 Old Mar 12th, 2017, 3:36 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Perfect sir... Delved back in a few minutes ago. Used the MM to check continuity, switch to connection plug. Tried several times and could not get a reading until one did give a read. it wasn't #10. Tried to trace the wire to the relay, but couldn't identify it for the life of me. At this point its a wash. I have to take the bike to the steeler next week, I'll figure out if its something I want to invest in or live with.

I'll update if I do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Not being on site to do more electrical tests, I see 3 possible paths to eliminate variables here:
(1) either the cancel button just happened to become intermittent (sticky, hard) over time. I have seen this problem on similar switches for many BMW models between 2001-2004. This can be tested in a static manner with right switch assy unplugged (pin 1 is CANCEL having Brown/White wire ..AND.. Pin 10 is the common Ground having Brown wire). You are basically testing for continuity between these 2 when CANCEL is pressed (Ohm function with switch unplugged).

(2) NEXT Possibility: the wiring between CANCEL (at switch junction on harness side) and the "smart" Flasher Relay is damaged (Brown/White wire from connector goes to Pin 4 of the flasher Relay.

(3) NEXT Possibility: The electronics in the Flasher Relay has been damaged by some recent work. This is not an ordinary simple Flasher relay so you cannot just replace with an automotive unit. This is the last troubleshooting option as I do not see a high probability (given that other flasher functions appear to work... If I understand your post)

Hoss
'Stupidity has a knack of getting its way.' --Albert Camus
'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
MOA, IBA, EXR & RCB and TMI
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post #12 of 20 Old Mar 13th, 2017, 6:50 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Hey Hoss,

Too bad the weather hasn't been better, you could head down my way as I have a spare Flasher unit you could try out. Maybe we could figure out what the real problem is.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #13 of 20 Old Mar 13th, 2017, 8:22 pm Thread Starter
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Thanks John, due to personal issues, a rear main fouling up ANOTHER clutch, Gretchen has went a month+ (weekends only) with her cloths off. You know how much I detest the steeler, but after loosing your CD purchased at CCR and fumbling with the abs, figured I'd take her in for the first visit to the dealer... I'll have them check on this little problem too.

You doing MOA SLC? Hallzee peer pressured me into it again...
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post #14 of 20 Old Mar 14th, 2017, 2:41 pm Thread Starter
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I feel sooooo dirty now.... sniffle... sniffle
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post #15 of 20 Old Mar 14th, 2017, 3:04 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
I feel sooooo dirty now.... sniffle... sniffle
As well you should! Who takes a BMW to a Ducati dealer?

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post #16 of 20 Old Mar 14th, 2017, 3:39 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
I feel sooooo dirty now.... sniffle... sniffle
No wonder you can't get it fixed.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #17 of 20 Old Mar 14th, 2017, 9:18 pm
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

Bloodworths is OK I bought two bikes from them but I never let them work on them except for warranty stuff - once on each one.

I may make it out to SLC. Job change in conjunction with a retirement will give me more time to ride but I don't have all the details worked out yet.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #18 of 20 Old Mar 15th, 2017, 7:10 am Thread Starter
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10 years, 2 LT's and this is the FIRST time ever to a steeler... I need to be hazed more for my poor decisions.

John, the OK comment has me worried... If they are better than A&S, I'm good! lol

Last edited by shoswell; Mar 15th, 2017 at 9:41 am.
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post #19 of 20 Old Mar 17th, 2017, 10:56 am Thread Starter
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
Bloodworths is OK I bought two bikes from them but I never let them work on them except for warranty stuff - once on each one
Hate to say it, but "steeler" is an apt name for Bloodworths! Not so much in cost, I realize they do need to make money. Moreso in customer service...

Took Gretchen in for the electrical issue, double check my bleed and a valve adjustment, they were all too tight and didn't want to dig into her that far. They shim'd and bucketed everything plumb, so they say, but as for the turn cancel issue. "we tested the switch and its okay" (I knew that bonehead)... no call to even ask if I wanted them to go further in the diagnostic, just went over the $705 total due and called it a day... Nice, thanks for the help... Sheesh!

As for the Bleed, Luckily I remembered most of your CD instructions. "couple of bubbles" was the comment...

Hoss
'Stupidity has a knack of getting its way.' --Albert Camus
'05- K1200LT - Gretchen
R.I.P. - '00- K1200LTE- "Barbara" - Retired at 168K 9/2011
MOA, IBA, EXR & RCB and TMI
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post #20 of 20 Old Mar 17th, 2017, 11:15 am
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Re: Free Beer to the person...

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Originally Posted by shoswell View Post
"we tested the switch and its okay" (I knew that bonehead)... no call to even ask if I wanted them to go further in the diagnostic
I try not to laugh at things like this because I don't want it to happen to me. The very reason I try and do as much as I can simply because I don't trust anyone else to treat the repair effort like they were going to be the ones riding it and have to depend on the fix to keep them as safe as mechanically possible.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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