Valves out of tolerance - BMW Luxury Touring Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 10:01 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

Hey guys/gals, this morning I have measured the intake/exhaust valve clearances and to my dismay, I seem to be way out of tolerance. Here are my findings:

Intake: .005, .006, .004, .005, .005, .005, .003, .003

Exhaust: .008 (all)

I did not remove the spark plugs and believe I have done the measurements properly.

What do I need to do now? This has got me concerned.

Thanks,

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 10:17 am
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
Hey guys/gals, this morning I have measured the intake/exhaust valve clearances and to my dismay, I seem to be way out of tolerance. Here are my findings:

Intake: .005, .006, .004, .005, .005, .005, .003, .003

Exhaust: .008 (all)

I did not remove the spark plugs and believe I have done the measurements properly.

What do I need to do now? This has got me concerned.

Thanks,

James
Seems that you either measured something improperly, or all your valves need to be adjusted. It is not at all uncommon to have to adjust intakes before exhausts, but all your exhausts are below minimum and need to be adjusted up too. That is pretty extraordinary. How many miles on the bike? I would suggest you find a mechanic somewhere to take the measurements also and see if you match. It could be improper measuring procedure, a second opinion would be valuable here.

If you do adjust them, make a chart of the follower sizes and positions, you will likely be able to just switch at least half of them around, and only have to buy a few, or dealer swap take-outs if your dealer does that. Some do, some don't.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 10:29 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of Tolerance

Thanks David for the response.

The bike has 23.1k miles on it. 2002 model.

I figured these numbers to be extraordinary myself. I made sure to have the camshaft lobes positioned away from the valve lifters by turning the rear wheel for the valve checks. I then slid the feeler guage in between the camshaft and the valve lifter to determine fit and size. That is how I determined the numbers.

Thanks,
James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 10:51 am
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Burlington, NC, USA
Posts: 597
Smile

James, are you sure you positioned the lobes correctly? The intake lobes should be positioned ~45 degrees up/north from the centerline of the camshaft. The exhaust lobes should be positioned ~45 degrees down/south from the centerline of the exhaust camshaft. If your measurements were made under these conditions then by all means you'll need to remove the camshafts and replace several shims of the correct thickness. I would do as David suggests and get another opinion before proceeding.

Good luck and keep us posted on your findings.

Bruce Harris, Jr.
Burlington, NC USA
1995 Harley-Davidson FLHTCUI Anniversary Edition
2005 Bushtec Turbo +2
BruceHarrisJr is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 11:48 am
Senior Member
 
bigbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Winnebago, IL, USA
Posts: 1,178
Valve adjustments

Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
Hey guys/gals, this morning I have measured the intake/exhaust valve clearances and to my dismay, I seem to be way out of tolerance. Here are my findings:

Intake: .005, .006, .004, .005, .005, .005, .003, .003

Exhaust: .008 (all)

I did not remove the spark plugs and believe I have done the measurements properly.

What do I need to do now? This has got me concerned.

Thanks,

James
Hi Jim,
on my 02 with 20,415 miles I had to change all of the intake and only two exhaust valves. If your bike is like mine a lot of the shims are the same size so I couldn't reuse very many buckets. There was only three different size shims on 16 valves. Pretty darn good control of assembly tolerances.

You may want to get in touch with some of fellow Texican's and see if they some old buckets you can use. New they are over $14 each.

Just got mine back together Sunday so this is still fresh in my feeble mind.

Roy Gregersen

Ride Slow, Ride Fast, Always Ride Safe
85 K100RT sold
02 LTC DOA 9/21/14
12 R1200RT
bigbear is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 11:56 am Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

Bruce, I double checked the lobe placement (at an up angle for intake and at a down angle for exhaust) and it was correct.

I did some re-checking on the exhaust valves, and I now am "feeling" , no pun intended, that the exhaust clearance is at .007 and not .008 for all the exhaust valves.

I don't understand how basically all the valves are out of tolerance. I bought this bike with the knowledge and paperwork that it had been dealer serviced and do know that it had the 12k service.

It's a bit frustrating to say the least.


Thanks for your help Bruce.

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 12:34 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Smile Valves out of tolerance

Thanks Roy for the information. Glad you got your bike back together.

Ride on!

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 12:58 pm
Senior Member
 
bowlesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Glen Alpine, NC, USA
Posts: 1,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
I don't understand how basically all the valves are out of tolerance. I bought this bike with the knowledge and paperwork that it had been dealer serviced and do know that it had the 12k service.

It's a bit frustrating to say the least.
There is no way they should be this far out if checked properly at 12K. I would try and contact the dealer to see what they have on file. That really doesn't help you much except give you a piece of mind letting them know they screwed up. I would have to disagree with anyone that says the valves will stretch .003" in 12K miles. I doubt anything got bent.

You get those all up to spec and your machine should have more power with all the valves closing correctly.

For point of reference I was extremely pleased to see that none of my valves changed one bit since I checked them at 12K and all are well within limits at 24k. My LT is a '04. For yours to be out that far seems ridiculous.

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
bowlesj is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 1:51 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Posts: 2,651
If your valves actually are as you said, I bet they were bad from the factory and pencil whipped by the dealer @ the 12k.

Brian Ley
WA State of mindless sheep
USA where everything is illegal
2007 K1200GT
2010 650GS
2000 k1200LT Sold but not forgotten
BMWOA 119892
sanjaun2 is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 2:12 pm
Senior Member
 
bowlesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Glen Alpine, NC, USA
Posts: 1,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjaun2
pencil whipped by the dealer @ the 12k.
I love it, such aviation terminology

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
bowlesj is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 2:26 pm
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlesj
I love it, such aviation terminology
You mean like "Parker Time"?

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 3:58 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

I confirmed about the 12k being performed and it was done by Hebert Cycles in Baton Rouge, LA at 12, 285 miles. The description indicates valves adjusted (3 buckets).

I think I am going to call them and see if they could explain why the valves would be this out of adjustment.

Thanks,

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:16 pm
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Antioch, California, USA
Posts: 83
Howdy all' and James

James, how much drag on your feeler gauge did you allow? The feeler will go in kind of hard due to the angle of insertion but once it's in, it will guild easy.
If thats the way you did it you may want to re-do it. Once the feeler is between the cam and follower there should be some sure drag, not just guild.
But to go ahead and loosen up your valves will hurt nothin. I loosened up all of mine and it helped stop the pinging trouble I was having. Have fun rolling that rear wheel in 3rd gear.

Steve Ridgway
Black 2002 The slug.
k2steve is offline  
post #14 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:35 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

Steve, thanks for the reply and information. I am not familiar enough with feeler gauges to know the difference between drag and guild.

This is basically how I went about determining the valve clearance amount. If my feeler guage encountered enough resistance (for example, start to bend upon further insertion) once it came between the cam lobe and valve lifter, I then determined that I was at a smaller gap, and therefore I used a smaller sized feeler guage.

Trust me, I do hope that I am just measuring these improperly and need to learn the right way.

Oh yes, turning the wheel with your right foot is a joy indeed!

Thanks,

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:53 pm
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
Steve, thanks for the reply and information. I am not familiar enough with feeler gauges to know the difference between drag and guild.

This is basically how I went about determining the valve clearance amount. If my feeler guage encountered enough resistance (for example, start to bend upon further insertion) once it came between the cam lobe and valve lifter, I then determined that I was at a smaller gap, and therefore I used a smaller sized feeler guage.------------James
As I have stated a few times before, you should be able to push the feeler gage through with two oily fingers gripping it. The best way is to take the feeler gages out of the set if you have a set that allows it, and use the blades individually, so that you do not have a "handle", which causes most to apply too much pressure. It takes surprisingly little pressure on a feeler gage to actually open the valve a little, giving you a false reading. Once pushed in like that, the drag will not be very high at all, so you will not know you have the valve sligtly off the seat. You can feel a little drag when doing it right, but VERY little!

To REALLY get it right, do as we used to do on drag race engines. Put a dial indicator on the top of the valve spring cap, and use a feeler gage that is a few thousandths larger than the required gap, push that in and read the valve deflection, subtract that from the feeler thickness, and you have the exact clearance. Example: using a 0.020" feeler, the valve deflects in 0.008", then you have 0.012 clearance.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 6:35 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Posts: 2,651
I have always moved the cams along by putting the bike in 5th gear and bumping the rear tire in the foward direction of travel. It is a little easier to bump in overdrive,

Brian Ley
WA State of mindless sheep
USA where everything is illegal
2007 K1200GT
2010 650GS
2000 k1200LT Sold but not forgotten
BMWOA 119892
sanjaun2 is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 7:54 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

Thanks Dave and Brian.

Dave, I will be trying again tomorrow and will be removing the blades from the tool.

Does it make a difference if you insert the feeler guage (at an angle) immediately into the crevice between the cam and the lifter, or if you start at the edge of the lifter with the guage and have it slide across into the crevice? I have not attempted the latter, but I'm trying to make sure to rule out all possibilities of an incorrect measurement.

Thanks,

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX

Last edited by beemer100; Nov 13th, 2006 at 7:55 pm. Reason: add words
beemer100 is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 9:01 pm
Senior Member
 
bowlesj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Glen Alpine, NC, USA
Posts: 1,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
You mean like "Parker Time"?
Oh yea, the pilots got to get hours to get to the majors somehow.

Eh Wes?

John

2004 - LT - Anthracite
bowlesj is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 9:03 pm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Posts: 2,651
I go straight in whenever possible. Which is all the time with the LT!

Brian Ley
WA State of mindless sheep
USA where everything is illegal
2007 K1200GT
2010 650GS
2000 k1200LT Sold but not forgotten
BMWOA 119892
sanjaun2 is offline  
post #20 of 24 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 8:44 am
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 208
Wink Valve clearance measurement

I agree with Brian. If your meaurements are correct then more likely the valves were not checked at 12,000 miles. ALL the valves just don't go out of tolerence at the same time! The odds of that happening are astronomical. I say put your valve cover back on...run the engine for a while....start fresh and check them again after cooling down all night. If you get the same reading then call a buddy to check behind you. Change your feeler gauges. Do everything possible to be sure you've done it right before you have it torn down! And by all means, if you do adjust the valves, have the dealer record the new settings! You need this as a "standard" so next time you'll know how much they have changed. Good luck! Ron Ray
ronlray is offline  
post #21 of 24 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 3:19 pm
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
Thanks Dave and Brian.

Dave, I will be trying again tomorrow and will be removing the blades from the tool.

Does it make a difference if you insert the feeler guage (at an angle) immediately into the crevice between the cam and the lifter, or if you start at the edge of the lifter with the guage and have it slide across into the crevice? I have not attempted the latter, but I'm trying to make sure to rule out all possibilities of an incorrect measurement.

Thanks,

James
Try to hold the feeler parallel to and against the follower face, and slip it under the cam. Least likely to have an "angle" problem that way.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 3:52 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Valves out of tolerance

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshealey
Try to hold the feeler parallel to and against the follower face, and slip it under the cam. Least likely to have an "angle" problem that way.

Thanks Dave. I am going to try that technique.

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #23 of 24 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 5:10 pm Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
beemer100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: River Oaks, TX, USA
Posts: 326
Talking Better Numbers

I just got done with re-checking the clearances and used the techniques described earlier. Here is what I have calculated:

Intake:

.006, .007, .005, .006, .006, .006, .006 (tight), .006 (tight)


Exhaust:

.011 (all)

I am feeling a lot better now and want to thank everyone for their advice and support.

What suggestions might ya'll have in regards to the intake valves and which ones to replace with a smaller bucket. I would assume the .005 would need to be changed and probably the two tight .006's. What about the other .006's though?

Thanks a million,

James

James Hart
2002 LTE Titan Silver
1992 Yamaha Virago 750 (given to friend)
River Oaks, TX
beemer100 is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 5:39 pm
Senior Member
 
dshealey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dandridge (Near Knoxville), TN, USA
Posts: 12,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer100
I just got done with re-checking the clearances and used the techniques described earlier. Here is what I have calculated:

Intake:

.006, .007, .005, .006, .006, .006, .006 (tight), .006 (tight)


Exhaust:

.011 (all)

I am feeling a lot better now and want to thank everyone for their advice and support.

What suggestions might ya'll have in regards to the intake valves and which ones to replace with a smaller bucket. I would assume the .005 would need to be changed and probably the two tight .006's. What about the other .006's though?

Thanks a million,

James
My way is to replace any that are even slightly tight, and those that are at or very near minimum when the cams are coming out. They always wear tighter, and if you are doing the work anyway, do the ones at are very near minimum, then those will not likely need it again for a long time.

It is MUCH better to have a valve slightly loose than slightly tight, and the ones at minimum will likely be tight long before your next check.

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work...I want to achieve it through not dying.

David Shealey
Dandridge, TN
EX: '01 Black LT, BAT BYKE (Totaled at 110,000 miles)
IBA SS, BB, BBG, 10/10ths.
No bike now, but maybe in the future.
dshealey is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW Luxury Touring Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I have good looking valves!!!!! motorman587 K1200LT 7 Mar 21st, 2007 1:31 am
Valves? hoodoodrum K1200LT 16 Sep 14th, 2006 6:19 pm
12,000 Mile Self Service - All my valves are out? bwingate K1200LT 9 May 23rd, 2006 7:19 am
All eight intake valves tight? desertlizard K1200LT 22 May 18th, 2006 6:45 am
Are the valves @ 12k ever NOT perfect? Bart K1200LT 30 Feb 6th, 2006 6:56 am

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome