Accident Frequency-BMW vs. Harley - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 4:14 pm Thread Starter
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Accident Frequency-BMW vs. Harley

I'm trying to do a little research on motorcycle accident statistics and whether is any difference by brand. Do people who drive BMW's have a lower or higher accident rate than other brands? I do know that it is reported there is a statistically higher fatality rate in the older drivers but I have never seen any mention of motorcycle type or brand. Anyone out there have any info?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 4:33 pm
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Difficult analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I'm trying to do a little research on motorcycle accident statistics and whether is any difference by brand. Do people who drive BMW's have a lower or higher accident rate than other brands? I do know that it is reported there is a statistically higher fatality rate in the older drivers but I have never seen any mention of motorcycle type or brand. Anyone out there have any info?
Thanks.
I don't know of any data but it would have to be adjusted for factors like number of bikes for any given brand on the road, total miles (or hours) ridden, for the statistics to be meaningful. Difficult data to come by I would think.
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post #3 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by CharlieVT
I don't know of any data but it would have to be adjusted for factors like number of bikes for any given brand on the road, total miles (or hours) ridden, for the statistics to be meaningful. Difficult data to come by I would think.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

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post #4 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 5:10 pm
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I really didn't know whether to respond to this thread or not, but I'm afraid my silliness got the better of me on this one ....apologies not withstanding...

Speaking personally, after riding in excess of 250,000 miles on a Beemer of one kind or another, I have never had an accident of any kind other than the obligatory no speed to very low speed drop.

As well, I have never had an accident of any kind on a Harley either. Not even the obligatory no speed to very low speed drop here either. Oops, come to think of it, I have never ridden a Harley either.... Phew!... so far so good.

Personally speaking again, keep on keepin' the rubber side down.

Austin S.

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post #5 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 5:12 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I'm trying to do a little research on motorcycle accident statistics and whether is any difference by brand. Do people who drive BMW's have a lower or higher accident rate than other brands? I do know that it is reported there is a statistically higher fatality rate in the older drivers but I have never seen any mention of motorcycle type or brand. Anyone out there have any info?

Thanks.
I have the Statistical Annual 2005 from the Motorcycle Industry Council. That puppy is 28 pages long and costs 100 bones. It breaks down statistics like you wouldn't believe, but doesn't go that far.



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post #6 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 5:23 pm
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Many years as an MSF instructor & 33+ years of daily riding has led me to keep an interest in MC safety atricles and todays demographics indicate that the middle age cruiser (Read Harley more often than not and metric rider) has taken the throne from the teenager on a ninja style bike in the past few years. The kids on sport bikes are dangerous too, but the old guys now have the lead in the majority of single vehicle accidents. When I was living in the Bay Area/Sacramento it was about a daily occurence on the news. * Less than 6 months and the first 6 thousand miles are a dangerous time for anyone on a new bike.

Learned consensus is the 45-50 year old middle class guy who just has to have a "Harley" and has not been behind a set of HB's for 20 years who trailers his bike everywhere and cannot seem to get a minimum 2-4 thousand miles per year to stay proficient riding in all kinds of weather and traffic is the prime candidate to bloody his Doo-Rag..........


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post #7 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 5:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I'm trying to do a little research on motorcycle accident statistics and whether is any difference by brand. Do people who drive BMW's have a lower or higher accident rate than other brands? I do know that it is reported there is a statistically higher fatality rate in the older drivers but I have never seen any mention of motorcycle type or brand. Anyone out there have any info?

Thanks.
Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall a data analysis years ago that put BMW riders at a pretty considerably lower rate/100K miles than other makes, particularly HD. The theories at the time included BMWs being selected by considerably more experienced riders (both more riding time and older/more mature judgment/less alcohol-oriented) -- exactly the opposite of the sport-bike/inexpensive smaller bike buyers, and unlike the 50-ish baby-boomer first time riders.

(Let's face it, the airheads weren't the "exciting" bikes of their era -- they were a small-selling "niche" bike for folks that had gotten past that stage and wanted a reliable, if boring, machine.)

With BMW offering a far wider line than in the 70's, many with a more sporting tilt, and further with BMW's efforts to get more first-bike and young buyers in the showrooms, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the gap in accident rates had closed. On the other hand with all the first-time baby boomers wiping themselves out on HDs in the last few years, I also wouldn't be surprised to hear that they're still way out in the "lead."

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post #8 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 6:37 pm Thread Starter
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I appreciate all the replies. Last night I lost a friend in Atlanta when he lost control of his HD and was run over. He had only had it one year. I have had well over 10 bikes (no accidents) and just bought a new LT 2 weeks ago. I love it and it my rides have made life even more meaningful for me. Today has been a real bad day for me. I guess I am desperately looking for a statistic which reveals that the majority of accidents occur in the inexperienced rider population and alcohol is a major factor.
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post #9 of 52 Old Nov 11th, 2006, 6:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Billy
I guess I am desperately looking for a statistic which reveals that the majority of accidents occur in the inexperienced rider population and alcohol is a major factor.
Very sorry for the pain of your loss. You've hit the nail on the head, though -- a very recent DOT study put the increase in m/c fatalities in recent years down to (1) the marked inexperience of older riders (many of which are unwilling to take a course), and (2) alcohol -- more that 50% of fatalities are alcohol-involved.

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post #10 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 12:47 am
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I second that date about alcohol. Drinking is involved in 40% of the accidents. Accident reports bear that out.

** So statistically if you don't drink and Ride, ride during the day, have atleast a few years of almost daily riding experience in varying traffic and weather conditions and you are not on a "New" for you motorcycle you have a pretty good chance of survival on the street.

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post #11 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 4:50 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Very sorry for the pain of your loss. You've hit the nail on the head, though -- a very recent DOT study put the increase in m/c fatalities in recent years down to (1) the marked inexperience of older riders (many of which are unwilling to take a course), and (2) alcohol -- more that 50% of fatalities are alcohol-involved.
Although it's getting long in the tooth, and is oft-quoted, it would seem as though the "Hurt Report" still holds true today, 25 years after it was published.

Here are some of the findings:
  • Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.
  • More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle.
  • The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends.
  • Motorcycle modifications such as those associated with the semi-chopper or cafe racer are definitely overrepresented in accidents.
  • Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields are underrepresented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.

A more complete summary of findings can be found here:
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html

There's also a heap of useful information on the NHTSA's motorcycle page:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...ot/motorcycle/

Five European countries were recently part of the MAIDS study, which can be found here (you have to register to get the study, but it doesn't cost anything):
http://maids.acembike.org/

And finally, a quick search through Google Scholar should help you find some reports and stats on motorcycle accidents:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=motorcycle

Hope this helps,
Lucky

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post #12 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 6:30 am
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
Do people who drive BMW's have a lower or higher accident rate than other brands? I do know that it is reported there is a statistically higher fatality rate in the older drivers but I have never seen any mention of motorcycle type or brand.
Gravity and guard-rails don't respect any certain brand over the other.


FWIW, one "rides" a motorcycle. One "drives" a car or truck. One "runs" a train, and "flys" and aircraft. Sorry to be so picky . . . I guess it's a pet peeve of mine.
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post #13 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 6:36 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messenger13
FWIW, one "rides" a motorcycle. One "drives" a car or truck. One "runs" a train, and "flys" and aircraft. Sorry to be so picky . . . I guess it's a pet peeve of mine.
So, "operating" a train would be incorrect?

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post #14 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 6:42 am
 
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So, "operating" a train would be incorrect?
That would be acceptable as well, I suppose. But I had a neighbor that was an engineer and he's the one that told me, "It kills me when people ask how I like "driving" trains. You don't "drive" a train, you RUN them! They're going to go where they're going to go!". I was quite young then....I suppose that's when & where my pet peeve got started.
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post #15 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 6:58 am
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I reckon you can add rush hour on side streets to that there list. I read the safest place to ride is the highway, no one to turn left in front of you. BORING.



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post #16 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 7:01 am
 
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I reckon you can add rush hour on side streets to that there list. I read the safest place to ride is the highway, no one to turn left in front of you. BORING.
You haven't ridden with ME on the highway, have you?
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post #17 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 7:09 am
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Originally Posted by ajs
I really didn't know whether to respond to this thread or not, but I'm afraid my silliness got the better of me on this one ....apologies not withstanding...
I wonder if those loud pipes make you any safer.....or, does the fact that you can't get out of your own way make you less safe?

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post #18 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 8:01 am
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Originally Posted by jayjacobson
I wonder if those loud pipes make you any safer.....or, does the fact that you can't get out of your own way make you less safe?
Despite all the self-justification about how loud pipes have "saved" their owners, the statistics absolutely don't bear it out -- which makes sense: most of that obnoxious noise is rear-oriented, yet Hurt showed that only 7% of accidents come from the rear (and if you think about it, the rear hits are from people who aren't paying attention, and are hitting folks sitting still, i.e, idling, not making the noise that they claim keeps them safe, so loud pipes won't help even in the direction they're pointing).

I'd love to see some serious enforcement of the noise codes -- every year I have to go to a seminar in the VA hills that would be *great* riding -- but the resort where it's located banned motorcycles. While I could bash the resort for not being more selective (ban only loud bikes), the folks that I'm really mad at are the selfish &*W^(*s that caused the ban to be put in place.

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post #19 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 8:07 am
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Originally Posted by messenger13
You haven't ridden with ME on the highway, have you?
You turn left in front of folks on the highway, or are you just smoothe unsafe?



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post #20 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 8:27 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
Despite all the self-justification about how loud pipes have "saved" their owners, the statistics absolutely don't bear it out -- which makes sense: most of that obnoxious noise is rear-oriented, yet Hurt showed that only 7% of accidents come from the rear (and if you think about it, the rear hits are from people who aren't paying attention, and are hitting folks sitting still, i.e, idling, not making the noise that they claim keeps them safe, so loud pipes won't help even in the direction they're pointing).

I'd love to see some serious enforcement of the noise codes -- every year I have to go to a seminar in the VA hills that would be *great* riding -- but the resort where it's located banned motorcycles. While I could bash the resort for not being more selective (ban only loud bikes), the folks that I'm really mad at are the selfish &*W^(*s that caused the ban to be put in place.
Remember when we used to get pulled over for the glass placks or cherry bombs on our pickup's? Nowhere near as loud.

Now, I was guilty of running straight pipes.... for just a bit. I never could tune the engine/carb thru the band. I could always hear a bike that some yahoo slapped some pipes and an air filter on without working the carb, and then smell it when they got close. Nowadays, with the computers, it's not as crucial. But, I still hear them running bad without a Dyna or the like. When I was on the Harley board's I kept asking how to tune a bike thru the band. Lots of folks claimed they could, but no one could tell me how. Claimed it was something you just did and that I didn't have "the ear". I even did the trick with welding a washer on a bolt into the straight pipe to try to tune in some back pressure, gave up and went with tuneable exhausts. Here's the beeg kick: everytime I sold a bike, I gave the buyer the choice of the tunable exhaust or straight pipes. Guess which asshole made more profit?

I was behind a Suzuki yesterday leaving the bike show. Had a beeeeg ol' honking tire on his bike. We were stuck in the parking lot trying to get out onto the street. He kept reving those pipes. The folks coming into the parking lot would rev back. He tried to git it after straightening out and it stuttered.

Now, here's what I really don't understand: If you're gonna do it, why not attempt to make it at least run halfway decent? An old Honda CB350 would've walked all over that Suzi. Poseurs.



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post #21 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 8:36 am
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I can only speak from my own experiences. I have been riding for almost 30 years. I have been an MSF instructor for 13 of those years. I have owned several bikes of various brands over the years. I had never been in an accident until this past March.

I was on my Electra Glide when someone in a large SUV 'didn't see' me and pulled out in front of me from a stop street. I couldn't go left or right due to traffic, so my only option was to break. Based on accident sceen measurements, I applied the breaks for at least 60' and left an 18' skid mark (on the pavement...not in my shorts!) The SUV struck me just as I was coming to a stop. The bike and my body were laying only 5' from where the skid mark ended.

I've been over it countless times in my head...panic breaking...shouldn't have locked the rear tire...you know better than that....etc etc. The fact remains that it happened...and that's why I love my LT with ABS. It removes the 'panic factor' in breaking.

There is no doubt in my mind that had I been on the LT with her ABS, I would have stopped much sooner, therefore avoiding the collision.

Harley's are fine machines. But I believe that BMW's have a bit more safety built into them that enhance your skills. What are the actual numbers? Who knows. This is just my opinion based upon my experience....I could be wrong.

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post #22 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 9:29 am
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Originally Posted by Billy
I appreciate all the replies. Last night I lost a friend in Atlanta when he lost control of his HD and was run over. He had only had it one year. I have had well over 10 bikes (no accidents) and just bought a new LT 2 weeks ago. I love it and it my rides have made life even more meaningful for me. Today has been a real bad day for me. I guess I am desperately looking for a statistic which reveals that the majority of accidents occur in the inexperienced rider population and alcohol is a major factor.
Don't try to analyze this, it will drive you nuts, take some time grieve for your friend and his family

forget about the stats right now, it makes no damn difference at all!!!

I've lost several friends and aquaintences over the years you can justify it anyway you want, none will make you feel any better!

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post #23 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 10:01 am
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complete stats...coming in two years

the multi-million dollar, federally funded Hurt-Study followup U of GA report will have all of that, but won't be published for at least two more years. sorry

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post #24 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 4:25 pm
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Isn't the Hurt Report like 25 years old? A lot has changed in motorcycling since then.
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post #25 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 9:11 pm
 
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Dairyland Insurance gives lower rates to BMW riders, they must be on to something since they aren't in the business of losing money.
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post #26 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 9:40 pm
 
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Dairyland Insurance gives lower rates to BMW riders, they must be on to something since they aren't in the business of losing money.
That's simply called "marketing". I wouldn't base any real facts on that one virtual fact.
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post #27 of 52 Old Nov 12th, 2006, 11:55 pm
 
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Great thread! I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

I receive e-mails from the Army Safety Center concerning motorcycle accidents. I have compiled these statistics on my own from these e-mails and created the attached spreadsheet. I wish there was more statistics available like type of motorcycle and how long the soldiers have been home since their deployment. I removed the units for operational security concerns and discussed this with our Sergeant Major prior to posting.



My thought here is that soldiers feel they made it through Iraq or Afghanistan without a scratch so nothing can happen to them. These soldiers don’t have the opportunity to ride a bike for a year so the lack of recent experience raises their risks considerably. Unfortunately, some of the riders mix alcohol with riding which is always a bad idea. Sadly, one of the soldiers attended a safety course just ten hours before his death.



The higher ranking NCOs are having more accidents probably because they can afford more motorcycle but I don’t have those statistics so I can’t say for sure. I know many soldiers are purchasing HDs with the qualifying discount offered through the Army Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES) so they can afford even more motorcycle than they can handle. My thought here is that motorcycles don’t cause accidents, people do.



If we would look at the statistics presented here, the Army may be able to save some lives. The data is FY06 through 1 August. I have suggested not allowing returning soldiers to ride again until they have completed another motorcycle safety course and maybe explain that a re-patronization cool down period may be a good idea given the statistics and attitudes that we have seen.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Motorcycle Stats2 1Aug06.xls (29.5 KB, 117 views)
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post #28 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 1:11 am
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That's simply called "marketing". I wouldn't base any real facts on that one virtual fact.
I disagree. Insurance companies know statistics very well and will protect their bottom line at all costs. I would believe that BMW riders pay "normal" rates, and that other bikes pay "inflated" rates, but that they sell it as "discounted" and "normal" so it sounds better. That's marketing at it's finest.

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post #29 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:14 am
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Question

Hmmm...
Why would you want a comparison between BMW and Harley? The only REAL important factor is the rider!

I have my own issues with Harley designs (ie-front dive and brakes!) but let's face it...even a superior design like a BMW is not going to keep a rider safe if he does not have the training and does not ride responsibly.

I dunno...guess I am gettin tired of the Harley bashing...about as bad as hearing HD owners bitching and joking about other bikes...
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post #30 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:24 am
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I disagree. Insurance companies know statistics very well and will protect their bottom line at all costs. I would believe that BMW riders pay "normal" rates, and that other bikes pay "inflated" rates, but that they sell it as "discounted" and "normal" so it sounds better. That's marketing at it's finest.
The folks that do this are called actuarials. They are paid very good and if they miss the mark, walk the streets.



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post #31 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 5:48 am
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Hmmm...
Why would you want a comparison between BMW and Harley? The only REAL important factor is the rider!

I have my own issues with Harley designs (ie-front dive and brakes!) but let's face it...even a superior design like a BMW is not going to keep a rider safe if he does not have the training and does not ride responsibly.

I dunno...guess I am gettin tired of the Harley bashing...about as bad as hearing HD owners bitching and joking about other bikes...
Really? You don't think ABS has no factor what so ever as far as safety is concerned? What you are saying is a responsible rider can ride any bike, safely in any conditions as long as that person is trained?

A great rider can stop a non ABS bike faster, but us average riders, especially in a panic situation simply can't. The most prevelant two vehicle is crash is a left turn in front of bike. Put a Harley and a BMW in that situation with an average, trained rider, which one do you think will walk away?

Now, I've only ridden BMW's for a leetle over 6 years and Harley's somewhat over 26 years. For me, even though I practice, practice, practice and try to take an ERC every year, when faced with a panic situation, I try to stop like it's NOT an ABS bike. To spell it out: I don't hammer the brakes. I've gotten better and have hammered the brakes about 50% of the time now.

I've lived the so called "Harley lifestyle" with one important factor: I'm not a poseur. Was riding them when there was no such thing. I had long hair, a beard, drank heavily, did drugs, rode with and knew closely a "social club" that I actually lived with, been shot once, stabbed once, have tattoo's, a fused ankle, a mangled left leg, a rod, pins, many, many road rash and other scars. If anyone can bash a Harley, I can and I call bullshit on your post here.

Antiquated design and non ABS against modern technology? Really?

So sorry you're tired of Harley bashing.



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post #32 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 6:08 am
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Originally Posted by grifscoots
Really? You don't think ABS has no factor what so ever as far as safety is concerned? What you are saying is a responsible rider can ride any bike, safely in any conditions as long as that person is trained?

A great rider can stop a non ABS bike faster, but us average riders, especially in a panic situation simply can't. The most prevelant two vehicle is crash is a left turn in front of bike. Put a Harley and a BMW in that situation with an average, trained rider, which one do you think will walk away?......Antiquated design and non ABS against modern technology? Really?
Griff,

I was getting all geared up to respond in similar fashion, but you beat me to the punch. As I've said before, my opinion rests with my experiences. I love my Harleys, but mile for mile, the BMW is a safer bike because of the engineered safety features. If my Electra Glide had ABS and a front end that didn't dive upon breaking, my opinion may be different. In the words of Dennis Miller...."But that's just my opinion...I may be wrong."

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post #33 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 6:49 am
 
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Originally Posted by messenger13
That's simply called "marketing". I wouldn't base any real facts on that one virtual fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meese
I disagree. Insurance companies know statistics very well and will protect their bottom line at all costs. I would believe that BMW riders pay "normal" rates, and that other bikes pay "inflated" rates, but that they sell it as "discounted" and "normal" so it sounds better. That's marketing at it's finest.
I think you disagreed with me, and then went on to prove my point all in the same post. Thanks.
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post #34 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 7:34 am
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Great thread! I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

I receive e-mails from the Army Safety Center concerning motorcycle accidents. I have compiled these statistics on my own from these e-mails and created the attached spreadsheet. I wish there was more statistics available like type of motorcycle and how long the soldiers have been home since their deployment. I removed the units for operational security concerns and discussed this with our Sergeant Major prior to posting.



My thought here is that soldiers feel they made it through Iraq or Afghanistan without a scratch so nothing can happen to them. These soldiers don’t have the opportunity to ride a bike for a year so the lack of recent experience raises their risks considerably. Unfortunately, some of the riders mix alcohol with riding which is always a bad idea. Sadly, one of the soldiers attended a safety course just ten hours before his death.



The higher ranking NCOs are having more accidents probably because they can afford more motorcycle but I don’t have those statistics so I can’t say for sure. I know many soldiers are purchasing HDs with the qualifying discount offered through the Army Air Force Exchange Services (AAFES) so they can afford even more motorcycle than they can handle. My thought here is that motorcycles don’t cause accidents, people do.



If we would look at the statistics presented here, the Army may be able to save some lives. The data is FY06 through 1 August. I have suggested not allowing returning soldiers to ride again until they have completed another motorcycle safety course and maybe explain that a re-patronization cool down period may be a good idea given the statistics and attitudes that we have seen.
Interesting. I saw that in the newspaper too. I have a friend that was in Iraq as a contractor. When he got back, one of the FIRST things he did was take a MSF course. Seemed to be pretty safety conscious around me. Had me go ride his first bike, a 500 ninja, home for hiim. Bought all the gear,etc. Looked pretty good for him. Soon after, bought a Triumph ST1050 or whatever, the sport tourer. Still being safety conscious apparently. Then got out with another more experienced rider, only a couple weeks after I cautioned him to be careful. He was at the 6 month mark. I got the call from his wife. "Can you come get ____'s bike - he's crashed and they are taking him to the hosp." He broke a rib, bike mostly okay. rideable, missing left peg. Then he has crashed at least twice since, always riding with someone more experienced and doing some kind of sport ride. Goes along with the theory of the returning soldiers. Looking for adventure. not sure if any of his crashes, maybe the first, were reported.

There will be many crashes by all kinds of riders on all kinds of bikes, that go unreported. Only when it is serious enough to require medical attention, will it likely get reported. Or when another vehicle is involved.

As an MSF coach, I also see many "re-entry" riders, and the majority are looking or have bought a sparkly new Harley. It's an image thing more than anything else. "I just want to ride the Parkway" (blue Ridge). We are very close (~10 miles). But ya gotta get there first. My crash happened on the highway that goes to the BRP. The BRP is dangerous enough on it's own, if one isn't ever-vigilant. Too many folks touring around with no regard for other road users. The parkway riders also don;t really seem to want to ride enough miles to be worth the risk, imo.

Okay, I'm straying from the subject way too much. Just my thoughts on some of this stuff.

Rando
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post #35 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 7:37 am
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Originally Posted by messenger13


FWIW, one "rides" a motorcycle.
Wow our States Motorcycle Operator Manual must be wrong. They state that you operate a motorcycle
In Fact the 1st word 1st line of the Preface is "Operating a motorcycle safely in traffic requires special skills and knowledge."
I will send a note to the DOT to get a proof read before they print next version.
Of course this is Pennsyltucky
Scan a copy of the cover, as you can plainly see all rider's are avoiding crossing the ohio line and entering the JOE ZONE!
Rock
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post #36 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 11:45 am
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I think you disagreed with me, and then went on to prove my point all in the same post. Thanks.
Do I have to spell it out for you, Joe? Marketing is the spin they put on things to convince you that they have your best interests in mind. As Grif mentioned, the actuarial folks are paid to make sure that the insurance companies never lose money. If they offer cheaper rates to BMW riders, they must have proven that they pay out less in claims for that segment. Seems simple enough.

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post #37 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 12:06 pm
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Ok, so how come I got cheaper rates on my new HD than on my BMWs?? Their original value is about the same?

After inquiring about this I was told it had to do with payout amount on a totaled vehicle - the insurance company could get more money back on the HD if totaled than they could on the BMW???

IMHO - Accident rate 99.99 operator error .01 equipment - notice I didn't mention make of motorcycle.

If one bike is considered safer than another (say better brakes) your riding style should take that into consideration.


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post #38 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 1:53 pm
 
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Originally Posted by meese
... the actuarial folks are paid to make sure that the insurance companies never lose money. If they offer cheaper rates to BMW riders, they must have proven that they pay out less in claims for that segment. Seems simple enough.
Another profession which gets paid by knowing how the world works is that of personal injury lawyer. (Notice: "how the world works;" not "how the world SHOULD work.") A couple of years ago, one of the cycle rags ran an article which interviewed a personal injury lawyer, who said that when he represented an injured rider, he tried to reject potential jury members who were BMW riders. Seems that part of the BMW culture is that "every accident is at least PARTLY the rider's fault." Settlements tend to be bigger when the jury is able to believe that the rider is blameless and helpless.

Stay safe out there. "Dying doing what he loved" doesn't cut it for the people who are left behind.

Paul
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post #39 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 2:38 pm
 
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Considering the entry level 650cc BMW is about $9-10K and then beemers head north 1200cc into $15k fast, one would have to be an idiot to not be careful with the bike. Rider ages +/- 35-70

Harley riders are careful as well and tend to be saddle hardened like beemer riders, but don't have the modern conveniences of things such as ABS. Rider ages +/- 25-75

Both brands of bikes are expensive, so why one would take chances is not fitting of the riders.
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post #40 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 3:09 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Considering the entry level 650cc BMW is about $9-10K and then beemers head north 1200cc into $15k fast, one would have to be an idiot to not be careful with the bike. Rider ages +/- 35-70

Harley riders are careful as well and tend to be saddle hardened like beemer riders, but don't have the modern conveniences of things such as ABS. Rider ages +/- 25-75

Both brands of bikes are expensive, so why one would take chances is not fitting of the riders.
When was the last time you saw a shitload of beemer's in front of a bar?



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post #41 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 3:28 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodoodrum
Harley riders are careful as well and tend to be saddle hardened like beemer riders
Gotta disagree with this one.

Yes, there are a *lot* of experienced, top-level riders on HDs -- any of which I'd be happy to travel with. No HD bashing from my end (I'm from the "iff'n ya gots two wheels, I don't care what the badge on the side sez" school).

What you've left out of your comments are the literally *hundreds of thousands* of first-time 50-ish baby boomers with *no* experience that in the last 5-8 years have plopped down the cash and ridden off into the sunset (or the nearest curb, or nearest bar, or ... but I digress ). These are the guys that have really ramped up the death and injury statistics in the last few years -- and they far out-number the experienced HD riders (and experienced GW riders, experienced LT riders, etc.).

Moreover, these are the guys that don't even consider a BMW, either because its not an American V-twin, or because they simply are unaware of them (let's face it, few outside of the motorcycle community even know BMW makes bikes!) Not a ding on them -- it's lack of awareness/knoweledge of this small, niche bike company and it's unique "draws." As a result, the accident frequency for HD's overall, and for this huge group of newbies in particular, is heavily skewed -- the frequency is simply statistically considerably higher than for BMW riders (and not because we're "better" riders -- just statistically more experienced and safety-aware than the average HD newbie). So, no brand-bashing involved here, just a matter of da facts.

Mark Neblett
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post #42 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 3:34 pm
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accidents bmw vs harley

i live in central florida and the amount of harley riders are far more than bimmers but considering the persentage on the state of florida is about 44% to 2% according to the DOT dept
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post #43 of 52 Old Nov 13th, 2006, 10:51 pm
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A couple of not so random thoughts are rattling around in me head.... I've owned and ridden both H-D and (obviously) BMWs in recent years. I've never ridden with a bunch of Beemer riders (oh, I should say OPERATORS, thanks Rock!) who have suggested we all ride to the local low-rent tavern and stay all evening and drink 12 or so brews and then try and ride home....

And I can't say enough about ABS systems. As someone who has had two crashes on non-ABS bikes, that got me thinking about safety matters in general. What H-D riders do and BMW riders generally don't do is modify or personalize their bikes to the degree that affects safety. All those custom ape-hangers, chopper front ends, and various other mods that affect steering, suspension, and braking have just GOTTA, IMO, raise their accident numbers, no?
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post #44 of 52 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 5:36 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneblett
As a result, the accident frequency for HD's overall, and for this huge group of newbies in particular, is heavily skewed -- the frequency is simply statistically considerably higher than for BMW riders (and not because we're "better" riders -- just statistically more experienced and safety-aware than the average HD newbie). So, no brand-bashing involved here, just a matter of da facts.
Mark, I totally agree with you.

Another very important point to consider is miles ridden per accident. One would expect to see HD and metric cruisers top the accident list by their sheer numbers alone. But, when you take into account the number of accidents per miles ridden it exposes the serious consequences of inexperienced riders this genre attracts.

Another factor that must be considered (when applied to accidents resulting in serious injury or death) is the “cruiser crowd” has an image to maintain. In this instance experience means little, because being “cool” is not synonymous with being “safe”. One example is their distain for helmets; and even when required by law chooses skull caps that offer little protection. How many lives haven been lost to this kind of peer pressure?

Bruce Hodges
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post #45 of 52 Old Nov 14th, 2006, 9:38 pm Thread Starter
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I agree that it appears that it is the newer owners with the new HD's (and I do like and have owned several) that account for the recent increase in accidents, especially in the older age groups. The statistics in the article below appear to point out that the most prevalent underlying statistic is the consumption of alcohol. Other than that the stats seem to be all over the board. I bought my LT after having both brakes lock up on an electraglide trying to avoid a car whose hood opened while going down the highway. I was very lucky to have entered and exited a 10 foot skid without falling over. I immediately got the LT because of the ABS brakes.....big difference.

Is there some other common thread I am missing in the statistics in the article below?
http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/i...ce/motorcycle/
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post #46 of 52 Old Nov 16th, 2006, 8:42 pm
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Gotta disagree with this one.

Yes, there are a *lot* of experienced, top-level riders on HDs -- any of which I'd be happy to travel with. No HD bashing from my end (I'm from the "iff'n ya gots two wheels, I don't care what the badge on the side sez" school).

What you've left out of your comments are the literally *hundreds of thousands* of first-time 50-ish baby boomers with *no* experience that in the last 5-8 years have plopped down the cash and ridden off into the sunset (or the nearest curb, or nearest bar, or ... but I digress ). These are the guys that have really ramped up the death and injury statistics in the last few years -- and they far out-number the experienced HD riders (and experienced GW riders, experienced LT riders, etc.).
your sir are correct!

Have a glass of fine wine!

Tom

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post #47 of 52 Old Nov 16th, 2006, 8:59 pm
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Sorry for your loss

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy
I appreciate all the replies. Last night I lost a friend in Atlanta when he lost control of his HD and was run over. He had only had it one year. I have had well over 10 bikes (no accidents) and just bought a new LT 2 weeks ago. I love it and it my rides have made life even more meaningful for me. Today has been a real bad day for me. I guess I am desperately looking for a statistic which reveals that the majority of accidents occur in the inexperienced rider population and alcohol is a major factor.
Billy, no matter the bike, lossing a friend sucks. Sorry for your loss!

Regards,
John
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post #48 of 52 Old Nov 16th, 2006, 9:15 pm
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Billy, no matter the bike, lossing a friend sucks. Sorry for your loss!
oops, loosing a friend sucks.

Regards,
John
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post #49 of 52 Old Nov 16th, 2006, 11:55 pm
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Originally Posted by grifscoots
Really? You don't think ABS has no factor what so ever as far as safety is concerned? What you are saying is a responsible rider can ride any bike, safely in any conditions as long as that person is trained?

A great rider can stop a non ABS bike faster, but us average riders, especially in a panic situation simply can't. The most prevelant two vehicle is crash is a left turn in front of bike. Put a Harley and a BMW in that situation with an average, trained rider, which one do you think will walk away?

Now, I've only ridden BMW's for a leetle over 6 years and Harley's somewhat over 26 years. For me, even though I practice, practice, practice and try to take an ERC every year, when faced with a panic situation, I try to stop like it's NOT an ABS bike. To spell it out: I don't hammer the brakes. I've gotten better and have hammered the brakes about 50% of the time now.

I've lived the so called "Harley lifestyle" with one important factor: I'm not a poseur. Was riding them when there was no such thing. I had long hair, a beard, drank heavily, did drugs, rode with and knew closely a "social club" that I actually lived with, been shot once, stabbed once, have tattoo's, a fused ankle, a mangled left leg, a rod, pins, many, many road rash and other scars. If anyone can bash a Harley, I can and I call bullshit on your post here.

Antiquated design and non ABS against modern technology? Really?

So sorry you're tired of Harley bashing.
Greg, What came first? ...your attitude towards safety or riding BMW motorcycles instead of HDs?
Also, are those your daughters in your Avitar photo?

Regards,
John
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post #50 of 52 Old Nov 17th, 2006, 7:57 am
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Originally Posted by grifscoots
I've lived the so called "Harley lifestyle" with one important factor: I'm not a poseur. Was riding them when there was no such thing. I had long hair, a beard, drank heavily, did drugs, rode with and knew closely a "social club" that I actually lived with, been shot once, stabbed once, have tattoo's, a fused ankle, a mangled left leg, a rod, pins, many, many road rash and other scars. If anyone can bash a Harley, I can and I call bullshit on your post here.
That "poseur" is not politically correct anymore Grif, it's
INSTA-BIKER! see just how long ago it's been now! hahahaha, also I like the "social club" hahahahahahaha.

Riding Harleys back when it wasn't "cool" was much different!

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