k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 12:28 pm Thread Starter
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k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

OK, so I have replaced my brake lines with new spiegler lines and put on new pads. I even went out and bought a new mighty vac to make bleeding easier. I got the front pedal about where I like it, but am having trouble with getting the back to work at all. I have rechecked to make sure nothing is crimped, and nothing is leaking. I have tried bleeding at the ABS unit and get nothing. Pull a vacuum using the mighty vac and vacuum level doesn't drop, and I get no fluid. (Yes the bleeder is open). The fluid level isn't dropping in the reservoir, and so nothing getting to the caliper. Had rear brake before the change...Suggestions Gents?
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post #2 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 5:11 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
OK, so I have replaced my brake lines with new spiegler lines and put on new pads. I even went out and bought a new mighty vac to make bleeding easier. I got the front pedal about where I like it, but am having trouble with getting the back to work at all. I have rechecked to make sure nothing is crimped, and nothing is leaking. I have tried bleeding at the ABS unit and get nothing. Pull a vacuum using the mighty vac and vacuum level doesn't drop, and I get no fluid. (Yes the bleeder is open). The fluid level isn't dropping in the reservoir, and so nothing getting to the caliper. Had rear brake before the change...Suggestions Gents?
I don't see a signature so don't know what year bike you have and thus which ABS system. I also don't understand front and rear pedal. There is a front lever and rear pedal, but not sure what you mean by front pedal. And the Mity Vac is all but useless for brake bleeding. You don't want to use vacuum and the bottle that came with my Mity Vac was too wimpy to pressure bleed.

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post #3 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 6:38 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I don't see a signature so don't know what year bike you have and thus which ABS system. I also don't understand front and rear pedal. There is a front lever and rear pedal, but not sure what you mean by front pedal. And the Mity Vac is all but useless for brake bleeding. You don't want to use vacuum and the bottle that came with my Mity Vac was too wimpy to pressure bleed.
Matt,

Based on his 1st intro post here (October 2015) he has a 2001 K1200LT.

Assuming he bought a used K1200LT having USA specs (and not imported from Canada, Europe), THEN it would have simpler ABS2 without servos. This simpler ABS system can be bleed using vacuum although it is NOT required to achieve proper job. Old-fashioned bleeding using manual lever/pedal pumping will do just fine.

For later IABS with servos models (2002-2009 for USA), usage of vacuum pump is prohibited based on BMW service manual (there is some risk...)

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post #4 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 6:55 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
OK, so I have replaced my brake lines with new spiegler lines and put on new pads. I even went out and bought a new mighty vac to make bleeding easier. I got the front pedal about where I like it, but am having trouble with getting the back to work at all. I have rechecked to make sure nothing is crimped, and nothing is leaking. I have tried bleeding at the ABS unit and get nothing. Pull a vacuum using the mighty vac and vacuum level doesn't drop, and I get no fluid. (Yes the bleeder is open). The fluid level isn't dropping in the reservoir, and so nothing getting to the caliper. Had rear brake before the change...Suggestions Gents?

Steve,
I am assuming you have a 2001 with front calipers marked "Brembo" - this is ABS2 system without servos.

To get better help, you will need to be more specific about these items:
(1) did you fill fluid container on right side (see RED arrow in attached photo)?

(2) can you be more specific how soft/hard is the rear pedal when all bleeder are closed?

(3) are you sure you have connected new hose properly where it attached to rear master-cylinder (behind chrome plate)

(4) make sure there is no leak at this specific hose attached to rear master-cylinder (behind chrome plate)

In some difficult case when many hoses are empty/dry, you may get better success by push bleeding (reverse method) using a seringe from the rear Caliper bleeder(s). You are in fact pushing fluid from rear caliper onto the round fluid reservoir (all the way thru). Make sure round reservoir cap is open and no hoses are blocked anywhere. Also, if you push-bleed, make sure the pedal is fully released so that the master-cylinder piston has no pressure while you push bleed (otherwise passage is blocked).

In addition to above sugegstions, you may want to watch the following tutorial video in 2nd part where he does the rear brakes hoses (beginning at 34 minutes out of 54 minutes total):
https://www.illinoisbmwriders.com/se...es-replacement
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John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by sailor; Dec 28th, 2016 at 7:04 pm.
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post #5 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 8:15 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
OK, so I have replaced my brake lines with new spiegler lines and put on new pads. I even went out and bought a new mighty vac to make bleeding easier. I got the front pedal about where I like it, but am having trouble with getting the back to work at all. I have rechecked to make sure nothing is crimped, and nothing is leaking. I have tried bleeding at the ABS unit and get nothing. Pull a vacuum using the mighty vac and vacuum level doesn't drop, and I get no fluid. (Yes the bleeder is open). The fluid level isn't dropping in the reservoir, and so nothing getting to the caliper. Had rear brake before the change...Suggestions Gents?
I don't see a signature so don't know what year bike you have and thus which ABS system. I also don't understand front and rear pedal. There is a front lever and rear pedal, but not sure what you mean by front pedal. And the Mity Vac is all but useless for brake bleeding. You don't want to use vacuum and the bottle that came with my Mity Vac was too wimpy to pressure bleed.
My apologies, this is a 2001 k1200lt. And yes I did mean front lever not front pedal.
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post #6 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 8:28 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
OK, so I have replaced my brake lines with new spiegler lines and put on new pads. I even went out and bought a new mighty vac to make bleeding easier. I got the front pedal about where I like it, but am having trouble with getting the back to work at all. I have rechecked to make sure nothing is crimped, and nothing is leaking. I have tried bleeding at the ABS unit and get nothing. Pull a vacuum using the mighty vac and vacuum level doesn't drop, and I get no fluid. (Yes the bleeder is open). The fluid level isn't dropping in the reservoir, and so nothing getting to the caliper. Had rear brake before the change...Suggestions Gents?

Steve,
I am assuming you have a 2001 with front calipers marked "Brembo" - this is ABS2 system without servos.

To get better help, you will need to be more specific about these items:
(1) did you fill fluid container on right side (see RED arrow in attached photo)?

(2) can you be more specific how soft/hard is the rear pedal when all bleeder are closed?

(3) are you sure you have connected new hose properly where it attached to rear master-cylinder (behind chrome plate)

(4) make sure there is no leak at this specific hose attached to rear master-cylinder (behind chrome plate)

In some difficult case when many hoses are empty/dry, you may get better success by push bleeding (reverse method) using a seringe from the rear Caliper bleeder(s). You are in fact pushing fluid from rear caliper onto the round fluid reservoir (all the way thru). Make sure round reservoir cap is open and no hoses are blocked anywhere. Also, if you push-bleed, make sure the pedal is fully released so that the master-cylinder piston has no pressure while you push bleed (otherwise passage is blocked).

In addition to above sugegstions, you may want to watch the following tutorial video in 2nd part where he does the rear brakes hoses (beginning at 34 minutes out of 54 minutes total):
https://www.illinoisbmwriders.com/se...es-replacement
Thank you. This is helpful. Yes I have the early version with Brembo brake calipers.

To answer your questions, yes I filled the rear reservoir to max level with DOT 4 fluid with the cap off so as to be able to refill with fluid as needed. I believe I have the lines correctly routed as I used Kirk's video as reference and things seem to fit nicely. I torqued everything down to specs and the rear brake pedal is very hard to move. I even tried adjusting the pushrod down to allow more travel thinking the master cylinder may not be refilling completely.

Thanks again. I may try the push bleeding if I continue to have difficulties. I just don't understand, I had rear brakes before and can't see where anything I did replacing the lines would have caused such an issue.
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post #7 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 8:40 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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My apologies, this is a 2001 k1200lt. And yes I did mean front lever not front pedal.
I am not familiar with that year as my 07 has the iABS version. I think at least the reservoir location is different. Mine has has the separate reservoir up under the seat.

My rear brake control circuit was a bear to bleed. I started by filling the reservoir and working the pedal in short fast strokes. This sent a lot of bubbles up into the reservoir and gave the pedal a little feel. I spent at least 30 minutes getting ever smaller bubbles before I finally called it good enough on the reservoir side.

I then began the rotation through the three ports on the ABS body. This took several hours over the course of at least two days. I think I ran half a quart of fluid through th rear control circuit be for the bubbles finally stopped. Even then the GS-911 bled test barely passed. The wheel circuit was an easy bleed.

I would not use vacuum as it is too easy to pull air on around the bleed port threads. Almost nobody recommends vacuum bleed in these days. Pressure bleeding is great if you have the equipment. I don't so I just used the old fashioned way (depress pedal, crack bleed valve, watch bubbles come out, close bleed valve, release pedal, check reservoir level, repeat until your fingers bleed).

Hopefully, someone familiar with your 2001 can give you more precise advice.

P.S. It is very helpful to use a signature with your model year and optional equipment that may be relevant to any questions you may ask.

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post #8 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 8:56 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
Thank you. This is helpful. Yes I have the early version with Brembo brake calipers.

To answer your questions, yes I filled the rear reservoir to max level with DOT 4 fluid with the cap off so as to be able to refill with fluid as needed. I believe I have the lines correctly routed as I used Kirk's video as reference and things seem to fit nicely. I torqued everything down to specs and the rear brake pedal is very hard to move. I even tried adjusting the pushrod down to allow more travel thinking the master cylinder may not be refilling completely.

Thanks again. I may try the push bleeding if I continue to have difficulties. I just don't understand, I had rear brakes before and can't see where anything I did replacing the lines would have caused such an issue.
Can you tell if the "hard to move" is the pedal itself binding mechanically, say on the pivot point or is it a hydraulic issue like a line blockage? I would remove the footrest and see if the lever and pushrod are assembled correctly. I also had to spend some time figuring out how the brake light switch went back into place as it wasn't immediately obvious. Fortunately, I found a picture somewhere that gave me enough guidance. I would sort out the binding pedal before I spent more time trying to bleed. My pedal moved very easily at the start of the bleeding process. Your hard to move brake pedal has me concerned that something more fundamental is wrong.

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post #9 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 9:40 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
Thank you. This is helpful. Yes I have the early version with Brembo brake calipers.

To answer your questions, yes I filled the rear reservoir to max level with DOT 4 fluid with the cap off so as to be able to refill with fluid as needed. I believe I have the lines correctly routed as I used Kirk's video as reference and things seem to fit nicely. I torqued everything down to specs and the rear brake pedal is very hard to move. I even tried adjusting the pushrod down to allow more travel thinking the master cylinder may not be refilling completely.

Thanks again. I may try the push bleeding if I continue to have difficulties. I just don't understand, I had rear brakes before and can't see where anything I did replacing the lines would have caused such an issue.
Can you tell if the "hard to move" is the pedal itself binding mechanically, say on the pivot point or is it a hydraulic issue like a line blockage? I would remove the footrest and see if the lever and pushrod are assembled correctly. I also had to spend some time figuring out how the brake light switch went back into place as it wasn't immediately obvious. Fortunately, I found a picture somewhere that gave me enough guidance. I would sort out the binding pedal before I spent more time trying to bleed. My pedal moved very easily at the start of the bleeding process. Your hard to move brake pedal has me concerned that something more fundamental is wrong.
So I removed the footrest (again) and readjusted the pushrod. Pedal feels better. Removed the banjo bolt on the end of the brake line that attaches to the hard steel line going to the ABS unit. Worked the pedal and no fluid came out and no bubbles in the reservoir. Don't know if this is normal but as soon as I crack the banjo bolt on top of the master cylinder I get fluid. Could there be a blockage if some sort in the new braided line? Again this is the line coming from the rear master cylinder to the hard line going to the ABS unit.
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post #10 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 10:02 pm Thread Starter
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Also I have the pushrod totally disconnected from the rear pedal now but can only move the master cylinder plunger about a 1/4 inch
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post #11 of 40 Old Dec 28th, 2016, 10:47 pm Thread Starter
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So I released the pressure from the master cylinder by loosening the banjo bolt at the top of the master cylinder. Plenty of play now and moving freely. Used mity vac to test for blockage in hard line. Sucked air with ease. Hooked everything back up. Repeated bleeding procedure, but still no fluid getting to ABS unit. Still plenty of pedal travel, but doesn't seem to pump up. I'm stumped.

Last edited by Hotrodsteve; Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:09 am.
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post #12 of 40 Old Dec 29th, 2016, 6:09 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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So I released the pressure from the master cylinder by loosening the banjo bolt at the top of the master cylinder. Plenty of play now and moving freely. Used mity vac to test for blockage in hard line. Sucked air with ease. Hooked everything back up. Repeated bleeding procedure, but still no fluid getting to ABS unit. Still plenty of pedal travel, but doesn't seem to pump up. I'm stumped.
I am not trying to insult your intelligence, but are you sure you are opening the right bleeders on the ABS unit? If you aren't sure about the flexible line, unhook it from the hard line and confirm that your rear master cylinder can push fluid through just the new flexible line. It seems unlikely, but maybe the line is pinched or maybe it was assembled incorrectly and is blocked internally.

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post #13 of 40 Old Dec 29th, 2016, 9:23 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

the brake line and the line from the reservoir to and from the master cyl has to be fitted with a twist, so that when you reverse the side plate to refit it the hose reverses untwists and the pressure is released.
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post #14 of 40 Old Dec 30th, 2016, 11:39 am
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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the brake line and the line from the reservoir to and from the master cyl has to be fitted with a twist, so that when you reverse the side plate to refit it the hose reverses untwists and the pressure is released.
Very true, which is why I avoided spinning my plate around 180 degrees. That can't be good for a brake line, even a new Spiegler. I found t could work on mine adequately by swinging it straight out to horizontal or a little less. If you lay on your back or sit with your back against the bike, you can work reasonably well without the need to spin the plate in a 180 to face outwards as in your picture. Less convenient to be sure, but I think much healthier for the brake hose.

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post #15 of 40 Old Dec 30th, 2016, 12:24 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

On an 01, there are some pretty easy tests. First, as you did, loosen the top banjo on the master and work the pedal. You should get a good flow of fluid. Next, move to the ABS unit and loosen the rear top bleed fitting and work the pedal. You should get fluid flow there. If you get fluid from both those points, then the feed tube from the reservoir is not blocked or twisted preventing fluid flow and the short hose from the MC is not blocked. Move to the banjo on the right side at the front of the line connecting the rear caliper to the steel line and loosen there and check again. Steel line not blocked or twisted if you get fluid. Then loosen the banjo on the rear Caliper and work the pedal. If that all works, then the system is not blocked. Don't overlook the feed tube from the reservoir to the MC. If that is twisted, nothing works.
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post #16 of 40 Old Dec 31st, 2016, 11:32 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

You have to push the fluid from the MC to the ABS a vacuum will not pull it. Be sure you are on the correct port on the ABS it should be the tall inboard one. That one can be a real bear and is the one I always have trouble with. I normally push the fluid back to the reservoir from the ABS but the low spot is the MC so I had to just pump it up.
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post #17 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 8:12 am
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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You have to push the fluid from the MC to the ABS a vacuum will not pull it. Be sure you are on the correct port on the ABS it should be the tall inboard one. That one can be a real bear and is the one I always have trouble with. I normally push the fluid back to the reservoir from the ABS but the low spot is the MC so I had to just pump it up.
John,
The OP (HotrodSteve) confirmed earlier he has a 2001 with ABS2. I believe the technique you have described above is ONLY valid for IABS (2002-2009 in USA) as the positions and numbers of ports are not the same on ABS2 modulator.

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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
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post #18 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 1:30 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

Thanks, Guess I missed that.

But still a dry system is often hard to get fluid moving in it. In this case I would PUSH fluid from the caliper back through the MC to the reservoir. You may have better luck with that.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
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post #19 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 7:06 pm Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Voyager;1672457]
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

I am not trying to insult your intelligence, but are you sure you are opening the right bleeders on the ABS unit? If you aren't sure about the flexible line, unhook it from the hard line and confirm that your rear master cylinder can push fluid through just the new flexible line. It seems unlikely, but maybe the line is pinched or maybe it was assembled incorrectly and is blocked internally.
No insult. I appreciate all the help I can get here. I am using the bleeder to the right on the ABS unit. This should operate the rear brake from what I understand. I unhooked the new flexible line from the hard line and am not getting any fluid there when operating the rear pedal master cylinder. I get fluid when I unhook from the master cylinder end so I know the master cylinder is working, but no fluid is getting to the other end. New crush washers, new banjo bolt...unless there is a defect in the line, I don't know what could be wrong.
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post #20 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 7:08 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jzeiler View Post
You have to push the fluid from the MC to the ABS a vacuum will not pull it. Be sure you are on the correct port on the ABS it should be the tall inboard one. That one can be a real bear and is the one I always have trouble with. I normally push the fluid back to the reservoir from the ABS but the low spot is the MC so I had to just pump it up.
Not really sure how to "push" fluid. Have yet to find a syringe I can use to attach to the bleeder as suggested earlier.
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post #21 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 7:15 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1673801]
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No insult. I appreciate all the help I can get here. I am using the bleeder to the right on the ABS unit. This should operate the rear brake from what I understand. I unhooked the new flexible line from the hard line and am not getting any fluid there when operating the rear pedal master cylinder. I get fluid when I unhook from the master cylinder end so I know the master cylinder is working, but no fluid is getting to the other end. New crush washers, new banjo bolt...unless there is a defect in the line, I don't know what could be wrong.
If I understand where you are testing, this is the short line directly connected to the MC that goes up next to the top mount of the rear shock. If you don't get fluid there, I would thoroughly check that short line for a blockage. If you have a compressor, blowing air through it lightly into preferably a cup of brake fluid to see if air flows. Some sort of test to check passability.

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1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #22 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 7:20 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post
Not really sure how to "push" fluid. Have yet to find a syringe I can use to attach to the bleeder as suggested earlier.
On an 01 as I have, you should be able to do all this from the MC. I did not have any trouble replacing mine using only that but as JZ referenced, some do have trouble. The rear bleed nipple on top of the ABS is where I would start. Pump the pedal 3 or 4 times, hold it down and then release that nipple and then tighten again before releasing the pedal slowly. Eventually, it should fill the hoses with fluid enough that you get some out of that nipple. I think I got about 3 iterations before I had to add fluid to the rear reservoir to keep it from going dry and sucking air.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #23 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 7:46 pm Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=bmwcoolk1200;1673817][quote=Hotrodsteve;1673801]
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post

If I understand where you are testing, this is the short line directly connected to the MC that goes up next to the top mount of the rear shock. If you don't get fluid there, I would thoroughly check that short line for a blockage. If you have a compressor, blowing air through it lightly into preferably a cup of brake fluid to see if air flows. Some sort of test to check passability.
So after about an hour of pumping, bleeding, still no fluid getting to abs unit and no "pumping up" of pedal. Will try pulling the line from the rear master cylinder tomorrow and try checking that line for blockage as you suggest but if there was a blockage shouldn't the pedal be hard?

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post #24 of 40 Old Jan 1st, 2017, 10:28 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1673841][QUOTE=bmwcoolk1200;1673817]
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

So after about an hour of pumping, bleeding, still no fluid getting to abs unit and no "pumping up" of pedal. Will try pulling the line from the rear master cylinder tomorrow and try checking that line for blockage as you suggest but if there was a blockage shouldn't the pedal be hard?
It almost sounds like the feed tube from the reservoir to the MC is blocked or collapsed and not allowing fluid to flow. If the short line was blocked, it might build up pressure if you could get the air out, otherwise, it will just work on the air and no fluid will fill the line for it to get hard from a non compressible liquid.

By loosening the banjo on top of the MC and working it like a bleed screw, you will be able to tell if the MC is still good and fluid is flowing from the reservoir to the MC. I know you have had the pedal off but remember that it needs to return to a position that uncovers the hole back to the reservoir or it will never feed more fluid so if it is adjusted too tight, it will never unblock that hole. People try to adjust the rear brake so tight that this happens and can cause a pressure lock and heat can lock up the rear wheel as the fluid expands and has no where to escape to. Not saying this is where you are but a warning. The pedal needs a certain amount of play to operate properly.

If nothing else, remove the line from the MC and put your finger over the top of the MC it and make sure it pumps fluid.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #25 of 40 Old Jan 2nd, 2017, 7:43 am
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1673849][quote=Hotrodsteve;1673841]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

It almost sounds like the feed tube from the reservoir to the MC is blocked or collapsed and not allowing fluid to flow. If the short line was blocked, it might build up pressure if you could get the air out, otherwise, it will just work on the air and no fluid will fill the line for it to get hard from a non compressible liquid.

By loosening the banjo on top of the MC and working it like a bleed screw, you will be able to tell if the MC is still good and fluid is flowing from the reservoir to the MC. I know you have had the pedal off but remember that it needs to return to a position that uncovers the hole back to the reservoir or it will never feed more fluid so if it is adjusted too tight, it will never unblock that hole. People try to adjust the rear brake so tight that this happens and can cause a pressure lock and heat can lock up the rear wheel as the fluid expands and has no where to escape to. Not saying this is where you are but a warning. The pedal needs a certain amount of play to operate properly.

If nothing else, remove the line from the MC and put your finger over the top of the MC it and make sure it pumps fluid.
Gordon makes a good point. If the pedal has insufficient free play, the port to the reservoir may never get uncovered to allow the master cylinder to draw more fluid. As mentioned earlier, it is best to follow a systematic approach and work from the reservoir to the ABS unit. Where is the rear reservoir on your bike? Mine is up under the seat, but I was thinking the early models like yours had a different location.
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post #26 of 40 Old Jan 2nd, 2017, 12:41 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Voyager;1673929][quote=bmwcoolk1200;1673849]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

Gordon makes a good point. If the pedal has insufficient free play, the port to the reservoir may never get uncovered to allow the master cylinder to draw more fluid. As mentioned earlier, it is best to follow a systematic approach and work from the reservoir to the ABS unit. Where is the rear reservoir on your bike? Mine is up under the seat, but I was thinking the early models like yours had a different location.
On an 01, it is in a similar place but it is a single larger round reservoir with a screw on cap.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #27 of 40 Old Jan 3rd, 2017, 11:15 am Thread Starter
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1673849][quote=Hotrodsteve;1673841]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

It almost sounds like the feed tube from the reservoir to the MC is blocked or collapsed and not allowing fluid to flow. If the short line was blocked, it might build up pressure if you could get the air out, otherwise, it will just work on the air and no fluid will fill the line for it to get hard from a non compressible liquid.

By loosening the banjo on top of the MC and working it like a bleed screw, you will be able to tell if the MC is still good and fluid is flowing from the reservoir to the MC. I know you have had the pedal off but remember that it needs to return to a position that uncovers the hole back to the reservoir or it will never feed more fluid so if it is adjusted too tight, it will never unblock that hole. People try to adjust the rear brake so tight that this happens and can cause a pressure lock and heat can lock up the rear wheel as the fluid expands and has no where to escape to. Not saying this is where you are but a warning. The pedal needs a certain amount of play to operate properly.

If nothing else, remove the line from the MC and put your finger over the top of the MC it and make sure it pumps fluid.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions guys, I really appreciate it! So I used my day off yesterday to track this down. I removed the new flexible stainless line from the rear MC and hard line. I put the old line back on and got fluid to the ABS unit right away. After cleaning the new Spiegler really well, I tried blowing through it. No air would pass.

So after shooting almost a full can of brake parts cleaner through the line and cleaning the tip that attaches to the hard line with welding rod tip cleaners, I got fluid to pass freely without any resistance or obstruction. I now have the ABS unit flushed, and rear caliper working appropriately. I don't know if it was an issue with the line prior to the install or some trash that clogged it up the first time I tried flushing it, but it is working very well now.

Thanks again for the suggestions and pictorials!
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I don't see a signature so don't know what year bike you have and thus which ABS system. I also don't understand front and rear pedal. There is a front lever and rear pedal, but not sure what you mean by front pedal. And the Mity Vac is all but useless for brake bleeding. You don't want to use vacuum and the bottle that came with my Mity Vac was too wimpy to pressure bleed.
Side note to the original issue...how do I add a signature???
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1674417][quote=bmwcoolk1200;1673849]
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions guys, I really appreciate it! So I used my day off yesterday to track this down. I removed the new flexible stainless line from the rear MC and hard line. I put the old line back on and got fluid to the ABS unit right away. After cleaning the new Spiegler really well, I tried blowing through it. No air would pass.

So after shooting almost a full can of brake parts cleaner through the line and cleaning the tip that attaches to the hard line with welding rod tip cleaners, I got fluid to pass freely without any resistance or obstruction. I now have the ABS unit flushed, and rear caliper working appropriately. I don't know if it was an issue with the line prior to the install or some trash that clogged it up the first time I tried flushing it, but it is working very well now.

Thanks again for the suggestions and pictorials!

Sounds like time well spent with the desired end result of the new lines installed and working without having to request a replacement from Spiegler.
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Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #30 of 40 Old Jan 3rd, 2017, 11:43 am
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

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Side note to the original issue...how do I add a signature???
Go to tools at the top menu bar and select User CP. under there on the left, there is a place to edit your signiture.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #31 of 40 Old Jan 3rd, 2017, 12:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

Great. Thank you!
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post #32 of 40 Old Jan 3rd, 2017, 8:36 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1674417][quote=bmwcoolk1200;1673849]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions guys, I really appreciate it! So I used my day off yesterday to track this down. I removed the new flexible stainless line from the rear MC and hard line. I put the old line back on and got fluid to the ABS unit right away. After cleaning the new Spiegler really well, I tried blowing through it. No air would pass.

So after shooting almost a full can of brake parts cleaner through the line and cleaning the tip that attaches to the hard line with welding rod tip cleaners, I got fluid to pass freely without any resistance or obstruction. I now have the ABS unit flushed, and rear caliper working appropriately. I don't know if it was an issue with the line prior to the install or some trash that clogged it up the first time I tried flushing it, but it is working very well now.

Thanks again for the suggestions and pictorials!
It is your bike and your call, but were it my bike I would send the hose back to Spiegler and request a new one. It is hard for me to believe you got enough gunk through the master cylinder to plug a new line solid.

I would sooner think this was a manufacturing defect with either the fitting or the hose itself. You may have damaged the Teflon liner while removing the obstruction. I would be concerned that an improperly crimped fitting might let go or the hose itself at some point. I'd want a new one that flows fluid without field modification.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #33 of 40 Old Jan 5th, 2017, 11:52 am Thread Starter
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Voyager;1674577][quote=Hotrodsteve;1674417]
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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post

It is your bike and your call, but were it my bike I would send the hose back to Spiegler and request a new one. It is hard for me to believe you got enough gunk through the master cylinder to plug a new line solid.

I would sooner think this was a manufacturing defect with either the fitting or the hose itself. You may have damaged the Teflon liner while removing the obstruction. I would be concerned that an improperly crimped fitting might let go or the hose itself at some point. I'd want a new one that flows fluid without field modification.
I agree. I thought of that, and have left two messages with Spiegler. I have yet to receive a call back. Not feeling the love! I keep telling myself they may be off for the holiday week.

Steve
Rocky Mount, NC
2001 K1200LT "The Enterprise"
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1675049][quote=Voyager;1674577]
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Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

I agree. I thought of that, and have left two messages with Spiegler. I have yet to receive a call back. Not feeling the love! I keep telling myself they may be off for the holiday week.
I don't think the brake cleaner would cause any damage itself but welding rod tip cleaners in might cause some damage. The short line off the MC has banjo fittings on both ends so a direct route through the tube would be obscured so you would have to push them in at an angle. Obviously you cleared some debris blocking the line. Let us know what Spiegler says when you get a reply.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #35 of 40 Old Jan 5th, 2017, 2:41 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Hotrodsteve;1675049][quote=Voyager;1674577]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

I agree. I thought of that, and have left two messages with Spiegler. I have yet to receive a call back. Not feeling the love! I keep telling myself they may be off for the holiday week.
I found STG and, I think Spiegler behind the scenes, to have poor quality control and poor after sale support. Fortunately, my lines appear to have been good (3,000 or so miles on them), but they sent me one wrong banjo bolt and I took two weeks to get a correct one. Unfortunately, they are about the only game in town. Good luck!

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post #36 of 40 Old Jan 5th, 2017, 2:53 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1675065][quote=Hotrodsteve;1675049]
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post

I don't think the brake cleaner would cause any damage itself but welding rod tip cleaners in might cause some damage. The short line off the MC has banjo fittings on both ends so a direct route through the tube would be obscured so you would have to push them in at an angle. Obviously you cleared some debris blocking the line. Let us know what Spiegler says when you get a reply.
I was most concerned about the tip cleaners also, but I would not discount the potential for chemical damage. I believe the Spiegler fittings are o-ring sealed to allow clocking of the fittings in the field. Most o-ring materials that tolerate DOT3/4 do not tolerate HCs or CFCs very well. Brake cleaner is nasty stuff for almost all nonmetal parts. I think the Spiegler hose liner is PTFE which resists most chemicals well, but I don't know what Spiegler may use for o-rings. I would be concerned about them long term after exposure to brake cleaner. Brake parts really should only be cleaned, flushed or lubricated with brake fluid of the appropriate type.

At the very least I would tell Spiegler they were flushed with brake cleaner and which brand was used and ask them if they see any issues long term with that.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
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post #37 of 40 Old Jan 5th, 2017, 3:36 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Voyager;1675105][quote=bmwcoolk1200;1675065]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

I was most concerned about the tip cleaners also, but I would not discount the potential for chemical damage. I believe the Spiegler fittings are o-ring sealed to allow clocking of the fittings in the field. Most o-ring materials that tolerate DOT3/4 do not tolerate HCs or CFCs very well. Brake cleaner is nasty stuff for almost all nonmetal parts. I think the Spiegler hose liner is PTFE which resists most chemicals well, but I don't know what Spiegler may use for o-rings. I would be concerned about them long term after exposure to brake cleaner. Brake parts really should only be cleaned, flushed or lubricated with brake fluid of the appropriate type.

At the very least I would tell Spiegler they were flushed with brake cleaner and which brand was used and ask them if they see any issues long term with that.
I agree with the statements about the brake cleaner being nasty stuff. I sprayed some on my front rotor and some dripped on the tire pressure cap that has the green thing inside to let you know the pressure is at least 32 and it disintegrated and blew apart.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #38 of 40 Old Jan 5th, 2017, 4:22 pm
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1675113][quote=Voyager;1675105]
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I agree with the statements about the brake cleaner being nasty stuff. I sprayed some on my front rotor and some dripped on the tire pressure cap that has the green thing inside to let you know the pressure is at least 32 and it disintegrated and blew apart.
I have pretty much sworn off brake cleaner. Isopropyl alcohol works nearly as well and is much friendlier to skin, parts and the environment. Yes, it is slower to evaporate, but I can almost always wait an extra 30 seconds for the parts to dry.

And I use just Dawn, hot water and a toothbrush to clean caliper pistons before compressing them into the caliper to flush or change pads. Much safer than brake cleaner, just as effective and only slightly slower and messier.
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post #39 of 40 Old Jan 9th, 2017, 3:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=bmwcoolk1200;1675065][quote=Hotrodsteve;1675049]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post

I don't think the brake cleaner would cause any damage itself but welding rod tip cleaners in might cause some damage. The short line off the MC has banjo fittings on both ends so a direct route through the tube would be obscured so you would have to push them in at an angle. Obviously you cleared some debris blocking the line. Let us know what Spiegler says when you get a reply.
I used the smallest of the tips, and pre-bent the cleaning tip. I don't really think I put enough pressure on it to cause an issue. I have called several more times to Spiegler. I keep getting sent to "Dave's" voicemail. Maybe Dave will call me back eventually.

Steve
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Re: k1200LT Rear Brake Trouble

[quote=Voyager;1675105][quote=bmwcoolk1200;1675065]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodsteve View Post

I was most concerned about the tip cleaners also, but I would not discount the potential for chemical damage. I believe the Spiegler fittings are o-ring sealed to allow clocking of the fittings in the field. Most o-ring materials that tolerate DOT3/4 do not tolerate HCs or CFCs very well. Brake cleaner is nasty stuff for almost all nonmetal parts. I think the Spiegler hose liner is PTFE which resists most chemicals well, but I don't know what Spiegler may use for o-rings. I would be concerned about them long term after exposure to brake cleaner. Brake parts really should only be cleaned, flushed or lubricated with brake fluid of the appropriate type.

At the very least I would tell Spiegler they were flushed with brake cleaner and which brand was used and ask them if they see any issues long term with that.
I did blow air through the lines almost immediately after flushing with the brake cleaner. So far so good. No leaks, everything working as it should. Good thing they are lifetime warranty!

Steve
Rocky Mount, NC
2001 K1200LT "The Enterprise"
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