Intermittent starting issue - BMW Luxury Touring Community
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post #1 of 50 Old Nov 13th, 2016, 3:42 pm Thread Starter
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Intermittent starting issue

I am interested to know if anyone with an LT has had the same happen to their bike.
Seems to me to be a sensor or solenoid involved with the reverse gear switch. When you turn the ignition on to start the dash lights glow as normal, But the headlight and indicators/hazards don't work and the starter doesn't even try to kick in, if the headlight is on there was no problem starting. If I put the bike in reverse and rock the back wheel then the lights, indicators intermittently work. If I get them to stay on then the bike will start. Sometimes there seems to be a buzzing coming from the reverse unit, sounds like a relay chattering. Does the reverse unit also control the front headlight and indicators? I have pulled the plug from the reverse switch to check the switch and it works fine. Any ideas?
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post #2 of 50 Old Nov 13th, 2016, 5:03 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

I know some people have had issues with their reverse units and I am not sure if the lights you mention pass through that device or not as I haven't looked at the wiring. I can say that those lights share a ground point for the load shed relay at the starter and flickering lights and light issues is one of the symptoms. Take a look at post #13 for pictures of the offending screw and have a look see on your bike. It may be lose or it may have fallen out completely if you are having this type of issue. I had power issues with lights and accessory things foickering and not working properly. I had a missing screw.

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...gnal-woes.html

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #3 of 50 Old Nov 13th, 2016, 9:39 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Sounds like a classic loose ground on the starter. Since the starter is double ended and sealed with o-ring on each end there is a single 5 mm allen the provides the ground. This is also where the load shed relay gets its ground as well (lights and other stuff). Check for a missing or loose bolt here:
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post #4 of 50 Old Nov 16th, 2016, 9:03 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Thanks for the information bmwcoolk1200. I have been looking around the forum and do not know how to find Post #13. I have all the covers off the left side of the bike and have removed the reverse unit.
What I do not understand is why I can replicate the issue by having the bike in reverse and gently moving the rear wheel. If I push the wheel against the direction of reverse then the lights come on, pushing it the same direction as reverse causes a relay to chatter in the reverse unit. At the time I am doing this I have not started the bike, I have just switched on the ignition and turned the reverse switch, so there is no vibration.
I would however like to know where to find the wires on the starter to ensure they are not loose. I do not have a wiring diagram.
The pictures attached by jzeiler show where the wires are but what do I need to remove to be able to see those wires?

Thanks again for all the help from this forum.
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post #5 of 50 Old Nov 16th, 2016, 9:38 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

The pictures posted by jzeller show the screw you need to find and where it is on the starter. If you lift the seat and look down in front of the battery with a really good light, you can see the screw. Those are the same pictures i referenced in post 13 of the thread "turn signal woes" which is a link to that thread. Since John has posted the pictures here, you can just use those. I am posting another of my LT and the screw viewed through the opening in front of the battery. If the screw is lose, it needs to be tightened. It isn't easy. I had to cut down an allen wrench to get it in between the housing and the screw. Not easy to tighten. If it is gone, you need to replace it.
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post #6 of 50 Old Nov 18th, 2016, 6:02 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Removing the battery will give a little better access to it. What you are doing in reverse is moving the starter since the reverse gears are engaged to the starter. This movement alters the ground to the starter which is also the ground to the load shed relay.

John
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post #7 of 50 Old Nov 19th, 2016, 6:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Thanks for explaining why when I move the wheel in reverse I can get the lights to come on and in turn start the bike. I spent the entire day taking the ground points off cleaning them, put a bit of vasaline on them and tightening them. I removed the bolt in the picture, cleaned the area and added an additional ground wire from that point to the battery and tightened it. No easy chore with what space is available to work in. Imagine my frustration when it did not fix the symptoms. The only way I can start the bike is to move the wheel with reverse engaged. When the light comes on and stays on when I disingage reverse I can start the bike. Lights may flicker and go off or stay on, which means I cannot ride the bike. This is becoming extremely frustrating as I do not know what else to check. Any ideas will be welcome.
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post #8 of 50 Old Nov 19th, 2016, 10:49 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by grayc03 View Post
Thanks for explaining why when I move the wheel in reverse I can get the lights to come on and in turn start the bike. I spent the entire day taking the ground points off cleaning them, put a bit of vasaline on them and tightening them. I removed the bolt in the picture, cleaned the area and added an additional ground wire from that point to the battery and tightened it. No easy chore with what space is available to work in. Imagine my frustration when it did not fix the symptoms. The only way I can start the bike is to move the wheel with reverse engaged. When the light comes on and stays on when I disingage reverse I can start the bike. Lights may flicker and go off or stay on, which means I cannot ride the bike. This is becoming extremely frustrating as I do not know what else to check. Any ideas will be welcome.
Well, at least you know that that hard to reach screw is not your issue as it was for me. In myc as it was totally gone so a visual inspection was all I needed to confirm the issue and replacing the screw fixed it for me.

I looked at the Clymer schematics and it looks like most of the bike electronics has a link to the reverse controller. Looks like mostly brown ( ground ) connections. I checked on my 01 LT and none of the interlocks affect the lights. If the key is on, the lights are on so I am not sure it would be part of the interlock circuit failing. Other than replacing the controller, I am not sure what else to tell you. Maybe John will have more Perls of wisdom regarding this issue. He has been at these LT's far longer than I have and probably has forgotten more than I have learned. Depending on the year, Ebay does have about 9 listed from 99 - 02.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #9 of 50 Old Nov 20th, 2016, 3:57 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

There are two microswithes in the reverse switch. Have you check that both two functions? When I had starting problems with my bike, one switch has crashed.
Roger/Sweden.
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post #10 of 50 Old Nov 20th, 2016, 8:40 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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There are two microswithes in the reverse switch. Have you check that both two functions? When I had starting problems with my bike, one switch has crashed.
Roger/Sweden.
Those switches themselves do not affect the headlight on my 01 bike or Panzers newer model but they can affect starting. Panzer damaged them while doing his clutch so he has to move the selector knob often to get his bike to start but no light issues associated with that. Not saying it isn't the controller as it has many connections but I am still looking for how it is affecting the lighting system in the schematic. I don't think those switches themselves would do that. It must be affecting the load shed relay if it is the controller. Still looking and hoping someone has that knowledge and chimes in.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #11 of 50 Old Nov 26th, 2016, 1:40 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

I had previously checked the reverse micro switches. They work fine. I have ordered a reverse controller and will install it as soon as it arrives. I will update the thread once installed and tested. Thanks again to everyone helping me out.
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post #12 of 50 Old Nov 27th, 2016, 11:58 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Yours is a very unusual condition. The reverse controller may very well be the issue but it is a new failure mode we have not seen here to date. Keep us posted and good luck. Be mindful of the three big black/yellow wires from the controller. Each has a colored sleeve with red going to the battery (+), the brown one goes to the ground tie point behind the battery and the black goes to the starter tie point behind the battery.

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post #13 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 1:09 am Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Okay, I replaced the reverse controller and still have the same issue. I double checked all the ground leads they are clean and tight, checked the bolt on the starter, it is tight. One thing I do notice is when I switch it on, do not start it and place it in reverse then move the rear wheel ever so slightly in one direction I get the headlight, dash, flickers to work then it will start. If I turn the rear wheel in the opposite direction then the headlight, dash and flickers will turn off and it will not start. I can also hear a relay being activated when the lights turn on.

bmwcoolk1200 - I see you live in Sugar Hill GA, I am in Johns Creek so not to far from you. if by chance you happen to come down this way I would like for you to see this issue.

Thanks again everyone for helping.
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post #14 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 2:42 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by grayc03 View Post
Okay, I replaced the reverse controller and still have the same issue. I double checked all the ground leads they are clean and tight, checked the bolt on the starter, it is tight. One thing I do notice is when I switch it on, do not start it and place it in reverse then move the rear wheel ever so slightly in one direction I get the headlight, dash, flickers to work then it will start. If I turn the rear wheel in the opposite direction then the headlight, dash and flickers will turn off and it will not start. I can also hear a relay being activated when the lights turn on.

bmwcoolk1200 - I see you live in Sugar Hill GA, I am in Johns Creek so not to far from you. if by chance you happen to come down this way I would like for you to see this issue.

Thanks again everyone for helping.
John's creek is not far. I could make that trip with a little advanced notice. Tell me what you have in mind and I will see if I can accommodate a look see.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #15 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 8:36 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Okay, I replaced the reverse controller and still have the same issue. I double checked all the ground leads they are clean and tight, checked the bolt on the starter, it is tight. One thing I do notice is when I switch it on, do not start it and place it in reverse then move the rear wheel ever so slightly in one direction I get the headlight, dash, flickers to work then it will start. If I turn the rear wheel in the opposite direction then the headlight, dash and flickers will turn off and it will not start. I can also hear a relay being activated when the lights turn on.

bmwcoolk1200 - I see you live in Sugar Hill GA, I am in Johns Creek so not to far from you. if by chance you happen to come down this way I would like for you to see this issue.

Thanks again everyone for helping.
Given that turning the starter seems to change the state of things, my money is on an internal issue in the starter. Maybe a bad spot where the brushes ride. I don't say this lightly as I am well acquainted with the work required to remove the starter, but more and more points that direction. It would be nice to get another set of eyes on it before you pull the transmission to get to the starter.

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post #16 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 8:47 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Given that turning the starter seems to change the state of things, my money is on an internal issue in the starter. Maybe a bad spot where the brushes ride. I don't say this lightly as I am well acquainted with the work required to remove the starter, but more and more points that direction. It would be nice to get another set of eyes on it before you pull the transmission to get to the starter.
Matt, I was thinking the same thing. Placing it in reverse and turning the rear wheel one way or the other would turn the starter and transmission. Trying to think of something to measure to prove this without pulling the starter that I could easily duplicate on my bike. Maybe a meter from the tie points behind the battery and ground with the batter removed.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #17 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 10:33 am Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Hi Gordon, my phone number is 813 481 9086. Please give me a call at your convenience to arrange a meeting. Thank you, Cedric.
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post #18 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 12:56 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Matt, I was thinking the same thing. Placing it in reverse and turning the rear wheel one way or the other would turn the starter and transmission. Trying to think of something to measure to prove this without pulling the starter that I could easily duplicate on my bike. Maybe a meter from the tie points behind the battery and ground with the batter removed.
I am not sure what is best, and I haven't reviewed the REPROM starter test procedures. I was thinking that disconnecting the starter leads and put a meter in continuity mode across the starter and then rotate the rear wheel and see if the beep goes away in one or more spots.

Might want to review the video Kirk did on replacing a fried starter. I can't recall if he discussed any troubleshooting or symptoms or just the R&R.

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post #19 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 3:19 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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I am not sure what is best, and I haven't reviewed the REPROM starter test procedures. I was thinking that disconnecting the starter leads and put a meter in continuity mode across the starter and then rotate the rear wheel and see if the beep goes away in one or more spots.

Might want to review the video Kirk did on replacing a fried starter. I can't recall if he discussed any troubleshooting or symptoms or just the R&R.
I am going to come up with something likely with the help of the brains on this forum that I can easily perform on my bike and compare with Cedrics. I imagine it will be something like you describe. Removing the tie point behind the battery ( in front of the rear fender) is not difficult to do to isolate the starter. Open to other suggestions. I may try to do that simple test on my bike today and see what I get.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #20 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 5:17 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Yours is a very unusual condition. .
Calling John Zeller or anyone who has a spare starter to test if the results of this video are conclusive enough to work as a test in this instance. I also did the test again after I reconnected the starter wire back to the tie point and got the same results so pulling the wire off should not be necessary, only the plastic cover to get access to the terminal. It is easier than trying to get to the nut on the starter itself.


Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #21 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 8:49 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

What Gordon did was a good test. I am now suspecting a bad windings or damaged commutator in the starter that involves several adjacent poles on the starter. If that is the case you will see more loss of continuity in the suspect bike as you move the rear wheel than Gordon did on his. Luck of the draw is the starter stopping on one of those bad slots and it will not start until you move it to a good slot. It will run since the starters inertia carries it past the bad windings during operation.
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But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #22 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 9:59 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Calling John Zeller or anyone who has a spare starter to test if the results of this video are conclusive enough to work as a test in this instance. I also did the test again after I reconnected the starter wire back to the tie point and got the same results so pulling the wire off should not be necessary, only the plastic cover to get access to the terminal. It is easier than trying to get to the nut on the starter itself.

https://youtu.be/ksLL84BRZdo
Gordon,

Is this positive lead attached only and directly to the starter? It has been several months since I had mine apart (though sometimes it seems like just yesterday!), so I don't recall if that connection is direct to starter with no possible connection that would allow continuity through a path alternate to the starter. If you are sure that the meter current is passing only through the starter, then I think this is a great test to try on the faulty LT (the gentleman's name escapes me at the moment). Good luck!
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post #23 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 10:28 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Gordon,

Is this positive lead attached only and directly to the starter? It has been several months since I had mine apart (though sometimes it seems like just yesterday!), so I don't recall if that connection is direct to starter with no possible connection that would allow continuity through a path alternate to the starter. If you are sure that the meter current is passing only through the starter, then I think this is a great test to try on the faulty LT (the gentleman's name escapes me at the moment). Good luck!
Matt, that wire only goes to the starter. When I did my seals, I pulled it from the terminal block behind the batter and snaked it out leaving it attached to the starter when I dropped the trans so I know that for sure. I wanted to make sure it was totally isolated and that is why I disconnected it but also redid the test with it connected to see if there was any difference in the readings so I don't think disconnecting it is necessary to do that test. Makes it quick and simple. I will be giving Cedric a call to see if he still wants me to come over which I will be happy to and have a look but I think he is pretty capable based on what he has done already so he may jump the gun and try it himself if he has a meter.

Thanks to you and John for providing some feedback.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #24 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 11:24 pm Thread Starter
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I connected a meter between the isolated nut on the starter and the ground lead. I have removed my battery. Turning the rear wheel with the reverse activated gives me .3 ohms and pushing the wheel in the opposite direction gives me 100 ohms, see attached pictures.
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post #25 of 50 Old Dec 4th, 2016, 11:28 pm Thread Starter
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Forgot to mention that the .3 ohms reading is what is needed for the lights to turn on and the bike to start. I think the 100 ohm resistance does not allow the relay to activate.(The relay I can hear under the tank somewhere).
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post #26 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 12:11 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by grayc03 View Post
Forgot to mention that the .3 ohms reading is what is needed for the lights to turn on and the bike to start. I think the 100 ohm resistance does not allow the relay to activate.(The relay I can hear under the tank somewhere).
Cedric, that would make sense. The high resistance when it should be almost a short circuit is the same thing as the screw being lose and not being able to find a ground through the starter for the load shed relay. The relay simply can't engage as too much voltage is being dropped across the starters high resistance. My feeling and probably John Zellers as well would be that the issue is inside the starter, either worn brushes or several bad commutator bars to where firm contact is not able to be maintained for the circuit.

It is considerable trouble to drop the transmission and replace the starter but I have done it once and there are many chronicles depicting the process. Beech usually posts this one as it has good pictures. The big difference is that the K/RS doesn't have reverse and only has a single sided starter where the LT has a double sided starter that engages at both ends so you can't pull it without separating the trans from the engine like you can in the K/RS or GT.

GregRS's journey into seal territory - I-BMW.com

There are some other things like seals and O-rings that you might want to address should you decide to undertake the task. I can help if you want it.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #27 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 9:03 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

You can source a starter from Euro MotoElectric either new or remanufactured. or Ebay for a used one.

New would be $199.00 plus shipping

Denso Replacement Starter - BMW K1200LT / 12 41 2 305 907

A reman would be $129.00

Denso Replacement Starter - BMW K1200LT / 12 41 2 305 907

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #28 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 10:06 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
The pictures posted by jzeller show the screw you need to find and where it is on the starter. If you lift the seat and look down in front of the battery with a really good light, you can see the screw. Those are the same pictures i referenced in post 13 of the thread "turn signal woes" which is a link to that thread. Since John has posted the pictures here, you can just use those. I am posting another of my LT and the screw viewed through the opening in front of the battery. If the screw is lose, it needs to be tightened. It isn't easy. I had to cut down an allen wrench to get it in between the housing and the screw. Not easy to tighten. If it is gone, you need to replace it.
I had a strange event last Thursday night. A group of us guys were going for a dinner ride and at our meeting place i stopped to top off with fuel, everything was fine. After fueling I turned my bike on and the headlight came on but then went out. Everything was gone as though I had no power. I mean the dash lights went out and the starter was not responsive. I walked my bike over to where the other guys were and said I will probably need to call tow truck. Well, I tried turning the bike on again and it worked fine, went on the ride no more problems. I did notice that for some reason my dash clock had lost about 4 hours which leads me to think that I had lost power at some point. I keep my bike on battery tender and at no point in time did it appear that my battery was weak. My question is could this starter ground wire cause this problem or does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for your help.
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post #29 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 10:48 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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I had a strange event last Thursday night. A group of us guys were going for a dinner ride and at our meeting place i stopped to top off with fuel, everything was fine. After fueling I turned my bike on and the headlight came on but then went out. Everything was gone as though I had no power. I mean the dash lights went out and the starter was not responsive. I walked my bike over to where the other guys were and said I will probably need to call tow truck. Well, I tried turning the bike on again and it worked fine, went on the ride no more problems. I did notice that for some reason my dash clock had lost about 4 hours which leads me to think that I had lost power at some point. I keep my bike on battery tender and at no point in time did it appear that my battery was weak. My question is could this starter ground wire cause this problem or does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for your help.
The symptoms pretty much fit although I am not sure about the clock being off. Without looking at the schematics, I would not know if that runs through the load shed relay or not. I would think the clock did not go through that relay. The pictures are already in this thread to check the screw to see if it is lose or even missing as mine was. That would be the first place to look for the issue. Not going to rule out an ignition switch as your cause but check the screw as that is easier to verify. If you turn out to be having the same issue as Cedric losing the ground through through the internals of the starter, I would find that interesting timing. The procedure to test that if the screw is tight is also listed above.

Take a look and let us know what you find with the screw to start with.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #30 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 11:05 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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I had a strange event last Thursday night. A group of us guys were going for a dinner ride and at our meeting place i stopped to top off with fuel, everything was fine. After fueling I turned my bike on and the headlight came on but then went out. Everything was gone as though I had no power. I mean the dash lights went out and the starter was not responsive. I walked my bike over to where the other guys were and said I will probably need to call tow truck. Well, I tried turning the bike on again and it worked fine, went on the ride no more problems. I did notice that for some reason my dash clock had lost about 4 hours which leads me to think that I had lost power at some point. I keep my bike on battery tender and at no point in time did it appear that my battery was weak. My question is could this starter ground wire cause this problem or does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for your help.

Contrary to headlight, heated grips and many other circuits, the CLOCK circuit does NOT run thru the load-shed Relay. Thus your problem cannot be only the ground wire at starter base OR the load-shed Relay itself.

You should still check this ground wire as there has been quite a few of these that were loose. HOWEVER because you lost clock memory, your real problem is a total loss of battery power (for a short or long time).
So EITHER:
(1) the battery is dying (one cell cracked)
(2) one or both battery pole main wires are loose,
(3) one of the main thick wires from (+) or (-) of battery is loose. These go to various tie points under seat so follow them.
(4) a fuse is cracked or loose (check your manual as the clock fuse varies depending of year)

IMPORTANT: do not touch any (+) wires or battery (+) with a wrench unless the NEGATIVE battery pole is disconnected before. If you accidentely touch any part of the sub-frame under seat, you may get hurt and short the bike electronics.
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
-------------------------------------------------
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Contrary to headlight, heated grips and many other circuits, the CLOCK circuit does NOT run thru the load-shed Relay. Thus your problem cannot be only the ground wire at starter base OR the load-shed Relay itself.

You should still check this ground wire as there has been quite a few of these that were loose. HOWEVER because you lost clock memory, your real problem is a total loss of battery power (for a short or long time).
So EITHER:
(1) the battery is dying (one cell cracked)
(2) one or both battery pole main wires are loose,
(3) one of the main thick wires from (+) or (-) of battery is loose. These go to various tie points under seat so follow them.
(4) a fuse is cracked or loose (check your manual as the clock fuse varies depending of year)

IMPORTANT: do not touch any (+) wires or battery (+) with a wrench unless the NEGATIVE battery pole is disconnected before. If you accidentely touch any part of the sub-frame under seat, you may get hurt and short the bike electronics.
Leave it to me to not suggest the obvious checking of battery, fuses and connections. Thanks John.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #32 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 12:05 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Contrary to headlight, heated grips and many other circuits, the CLOCK circuit does NOT run thru the load-shed Relay. Thus your problem cannot be only the ground wire at starter base OR the load-shed Relay itself.

You should still check this ground wire as there has been quite a few of these that were loose. HOWEVER because you lost clock memory, your real problem is a total loss of battery power (for a short or long time).
So EITHER:
(1) the battery is dying (one cell cracked)
(2) one or both battery pole main wires are loose,
(3) one of the main thick wires from (+) or (-) of battery is loose. These go to various tie points under seat so follow them.
(4) a fuse is cracked or loose (check your manual as the clock fuse varies depending of year)

IMPORTANT: do not touch any (+) wires or battery (+) with a wrench unless the NEGATIVE battery pole is disconnected before. If you accidentely touch any part of the sub-frame under seat, you may get hurt and short the bike electronics.
Thanks for the reply. When I got home the first thing I did was check battery cables, both were tight. Then left bike off battery tender until yesterday afternoon to see if battery was still charged. Everything was fine and clock has not lost any time which tells me I had not lost power. Will keep checking to see if I can find something loose. Again thanks for the quick response.
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post #33 of 50 Old Dec 5th, 2016, 10:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Gordon, thank you for taking the time to disassemble parts of your bike in order to simulate this issue. I am trying to understand the start mechanics of the 1200lt, so did a bit of further investigating. With the key turned on, no lights, starter button does not start the bike. Left the key in the on position and made a connection between the starter isolated terminal and the battery + terminal. The starter cranked up and the bike started. A connection between the starter isolated terminal and ground activates the relay and the lights turn on. So there must be circuitry in place that reverses polarity when the starter button is pressed. Just a guess as I do not have a wiring diagram. I am extremely nervous about pulling the starter. That is major work that I have never attempted. Looks like the 1st step would be to build a platform to raise the bike.
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

The polarity does not reverse. What happens if the load shed relay has 12 v on one side of the relay coil and the starter is connected to the other side of the relay coil. When you get that .3 ohm reading the starter is essentially a ground and the relay energizes turning on the lights. Now when you apply 12 v to the starter the relay has 12 v on both sides of the coil so it de-energizes, shutting off the lights (and other loads) during cranking. When you stop cranking the starter motor becomes a ground again and the relay energizes turning on the lights. When you get that 100 ohm reading the starter is no longer a ground to the relay so it never energizes and the lights stay off. Hope that helps.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Gordon, thank you for taking the time to disassemble parts of your bike in order to simulate this issue. I am trying to understand the start mechanics of the 1200lt, so did a bit of further investigating. With the key turned on, no lights, starter button does not start the bike. Left the key in the on position and made a connection between the starter isolated terminal and the battery + terminal. The starter cranked up and the bike started. A connection between the starter isolated terminal and ground activates the relay and the lights turn on. So there must be circuitry in place that reverses polarity when the starter button is pressed. Just a guess as I do not have a wiring diagram. I am extremely nervous about pulling the starter. That is major work that I have never attempted. Looks like the 1st step would be to build a platform to raise the bike.
Cedric, listen to John. He has 10 times the knowledge and experience that I do and is seldom wrong. You are not far away from me and I have a lift and all the tools necessary to do this job. I hope this is not your only form of transportation because if you do it at my house, it will probably be on the lift for a couple weekends and the time in-between unless we work really fast

Taking it to a dealer like Hourglass would probably cost you close to a couple grand in parts and labor and you wouldn't get the benefit of being able to renew the seals along the way.

Decide what you want to do and when you might want to do it. I will help you. If you need time to gather the parts due to the expense of them, then we will do it when you are ready. I can help you with the parts list depending on what you are comfortable doing and paying for. Going that deep is an opportunity to refresh some not too expensive old rubber that will cause you trouble later and then have to do it all over again. A discussion on what that entails will be in order.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #36 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 12:01 am Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Gordon that is a very generous offer, thank you. Would you like to give me a call to go over the details? I can order what you think may be needed for the bike. I cannot ride it as it is, well not at night time as the light may just suddenly go out. I have alternate transportation so that is not an issue. We can work on it at your convenience. Do you think the starter may be recoverable?
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post #37 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 12:07 am Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

John I would like to thank you for your experience and explanations to all questions on this thread. This is the best forum I have seen. You guys are amazing.
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post #38 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 8:40 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Gordon that is a very generous offer, thank you. Would you like to give me a call to go over the details? I can order what you think may be needed for the bike. I cannot ride it as it is, well not at night time as the light may just suddenly go out. I have alternate transportation so that is not an issue. We can work on it at your convenience. Do you think the starter may be recoverable?
I am surprised that we got this far in the thread and didn't at least ask what year and how many miles your bike has. As for recovering the starter, yes that is possible however just the brush and plate assy is $131.32 from MAX BMW which would be the very least that would be necessary. If it was a bad commutator bar(s) then possibly replacing the armature at $313.91 and also a new brush set on top of that. The better bet would be to order the reman unit from Euro MotoElectric I posted above and here again as it should be a fully restored tested starter for only the cost of new brushes.

Denso Replacement Starter - BMW K1200LT / 12 41 2 305 907

I put together a list of parts necessary to do a LT clutch job awhile back and it has all the parts and prices ( at that time) of what you could replace on this journey. How much of that you want to do will be totally up to you but I would suggest we do go ahead and replace the O-ring behind the clutch when we are there with a Viton one that I already have. The additional cost would be a bolt set for the clutch housing and the large nut as it is a one time only use to get to the O-ring plus the main output shaft seal. Do you have any time off between Christmas and new years?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #39 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 8:56 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Prices are fairly recent so they should not be much more than from my previous list. The ones in red are what I would recommend you get ahead of time in addition to the replacement starter. We can discuss the other parts at length if you want to do anything else while you have it apart. Are your brake lines still OEM?

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...arts-list.html

Clutch Parts
21 21 7 688 214 DIAPHRAGM SPRING $84.88 Clutch spring
21 21 2 332 974 PRESSURE PLATE $117.35
21 21 7 670 455 CLUTCH PLATE - D=180MM $204.79 Available from BBY for less and better.
21 21 2 333 449 HOUSING COVER $224.02
21 21 1 454 417 SCREW ( clutch cover 6 needed ) $2.35
21 21 1 242 377 WASHER - A7,4 ( clutch cover 6 needed ) $0.64
11 21 1 460 673 HEX NUT - M20X1,5 $11.14
11 21 1 460 696 COMPRESSION RING $4.76
11 21 1 464 939 STOP DISK - GROSS $19.90
11 21 1 460 467 O-RING - 19X4 (OEM not Viton) $1.88 I will provide

Seals
11 11 7 666 186 SHAFT SEAL - 50X80X10 ( rear main block seal behind clutch basket) $34.70
23 12 7 705 086 SHAFT SEAL - 20X32X8 ( Trans input shaft seal ) $19.35
23 12 2 330 135 SHAFT SEAL - 25X40X6 ( Trans output shaft seal set depth critical) $19.35
23 12 7 705 085 SHAFT SEAL, DRIVE SHAFT - 17X28X7 ( under slave cyl seal) $17.58

Slave cylinder
21 52 2 333 433 OUTPUT CYLINDER CLUTCH - D=20 $176.82

some trans seals are available for less from amazon via VXB AVX seals and I have used them however the main engine seal 50X80X10 I would get only from the dealer as it is Teflon and not BunaN and the new slave oil seal is resistant to brake fluid so that is a plus for that one also getting it from the dealer but more expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/20x32x8-Rubbe...s=seal+20X32X8

https://www.amazon.com/25x40x6-Rubbe...s=seal+25X40X6

https://www.amazon.com/17x28x7-Rubbe...s=seal+17X28X7

BBY clutch plate $104.95
http://www.beemerboneyard.com/2123455bp.html

Just listing things to look at while we have it open, not all of this would you need to get so don't panic
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Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #40 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 8:29 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Thanks for the list Gordon. My LT is a 2000 with 31,000 miles. I have just recently replaced the brake lines and disks as well as replacing engine oil and filter, gearbox and FD oils.
I am off work from the 13th till the 3rd Jan, I will however be out of town from the 19th till 23rd.

I will order the parts in red and the starter. Could you please give me a call when you have time, thanks.
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post #41 of 50 Old Dec 6th, 2016, 10:05 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Thanks for the list Gordon. My LT is a 2000 with 31,000 miles. I have just recently replaced the brake lines and disks as well as replacing engine oil and filter, gearbox and FD oils.
I am off work from the 13th till the 3rd Jan, I will however be out of town from the 19th till 23rd.

I will order the parts in red and the starter. Could you please give me a call when you have time, thanks.
I an off a good bit of that time also so we may be able to get it done before the new year as long as the parts are available before then. Left a private message for you.

With 31K on the meter and no abuse, I would hope the clutch was still in good shape but we won't know until we look at it. Mine at 50K still had half its life left but I replaced it anyways being the optimist and wanting to wear one out from the start and see now far it can go. Will talk to you tomorrow.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #42 of 50 Old Dec 7th, 2016, 7:39 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Prices are fairly recent so they should not be much more than from my previous list. The ones in red are what I would recommend you get ahead of time in addition to the replacement starter. We can discuss the other parts at length if you want to do anything else while you have it apart. Are your brake lines still OEM?

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...arts-list.html

Clutch Parts
21 21 7 688 214 DIAPHRAGM SPRING $84.88 Clutch spring
21 21 2 332 974 PRESSURE PLATE $117.35
21 21 7 670 455 CLUTCH PLATE - D=180MM $204.79 Available from BBY for less and better.
21 21 2 333 449 HOUSING COVER $224.02
21 21 1 454 417 SCREW ( clutch cover 6 needed ) $2.35
21 21 1 242 377 WASHER - A7,4 ( clutch cover 6 needed ) $0.64
11 21 1 460 673 HEX NUT - M20X1,5 $11.14
11 21 1 460 696 COMPRESSION RING $4.76
11 21 1 464 939 STOP DISK - GROSS $19.90
11 21 1 460 467 O-RING - 19X4 (OEM not Viton) $1.88 I will provide

Seals
11 11 7 666 186 SHAFT SEAL - 50X80X10 ( rear main block seal behind clutch basket) $34.70
23 12 7 705 086 SHAFT SEAL - 20X32X8 ( Trans input shaft seal ) $19.35
23 12 2 330 135 SHAFT SEAL - 25X40X6 ( Trans output shaft seal set depth critical) $19.35
23 12 7 705 085 SHAFT SEAL, DRIVE SHAFT - 17X28X7 ( under slave cyl seal) $17.58

Slave cylinder
21 52 2 333 433 OUTPUT CYLINDER CLUTCH - D=20 $176.82

some trans seals are available for less from amazon via VXB AVX seals and I have used them however the main engine seal 50X80X10 I would get only from the dealer as it is Teflon and not BunaN and the new slave oil seal is resistant to brake fluid so that is a plus for that one also getting it from the dealer but more expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/20x32x8-Rubbe...s=seal+20X32X8

https://www.amazon.com/25x40x6-Rubbe...s=seal+25X40X6

https://www.amazon.com/17x28x7-Rubbe...s=seal+17X28X7

BBY clutch plate $104.95
New Siebenrock Basic Plus Clutch Plate For All K1200LT Bikes & K1200RS & K1200GT Bikes Through 2005

Just listing things to look at while we have it open, not all of this would you need to get so don't panic
I think I remember you saying you didn't have a wiring diagram so that suggests you don't have a Clymer manual. I would invest in a manual and study up on the transmission removal procedure in advance. Having the basic sequence in mind will help move things along at a good pace.

And if you are really bored, you can read a few of the sagas that have been documented in this forum. I documented mine back in April and May and several others have done likewise. That will give you some good tips such as buying some long 1/4" bolts (I think I got 4") to replace the front engine mounting bolts. This greatly eases lowering of the engine to allow the transmission to clear the frame. And I found that picking up the head to rotate the engine allowed what seemed an impossible bind to ease allowing the engine to drop down with zero forcing required.

In addition to Gordon's list I would also consider replacing the crankcase ventilation system while the engine is lowered. It probably will need it soon if not now and there will never be better access.

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2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #43 of 50 Old Dec 7th, 2016, 8:05 am
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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I think I remember you saying you didn't have a wiring diagram so that suggests you don't have a Clymer manual. I would invest in a manual and study up on the transmission removal procedure in advance. Having the basic sequence in mind will help move things along at a good pace.

And if you are really bored, you can read a few of the sagas that have been documented in this forum. I documented mine back in April and May and several others have done likewise. That will give you some good tips such as buying some long 1/4" bolts (I think I got 4") to replace the front engine mounting bolts. This greatly eases lowering of the engine to allow the transmission to clear the frame. And I found that picking up the head to rotate the engine allowed what seemed an impossible bind to ease allowing the engine to drop down with zero forcing required.

In addition to Gordon's list I would also consider replacing the crankcase ventilation system while the engine is lowered. It probably will need it soon if not now and there will never be better access.
As Matt said, seeing you are doing your own wrenching, a Clymer manual is a good investment and Matt, I still have the stubby manifold I mocked up and was planning on using that so Cedric didn't have to spend another $90 on that trashy piece of plastic. Mine is already done so no use in letting it go to waste. It has just been waiting to find a good home.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #44 of 50 Old Dec 7th, 2016, 10:02 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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John I would like to thank you for your experience and explanations to all questions on this thread. This is the best forum I have seen. You guys are amazing.
You are welcome. If you do need to ride it some where and you are worried about the lights going out you can do a risky fix for it. After you start the bike, place a small jumper wire (alligator clips on each end) between the starter tie point and the ground tie point. This will ensure the load shed relay gets its ground. Just be sure to remove it before you start the bike again or it will fry. That is why I said a small jumper. Strong enough for the load shed relay but will disintegrate if you forget it and try to start the bike.

John
2009 K1300GT Red Rocket
2009 R1200GS (Gone)
2005 K1200LT Ocean Blue Blue Wizard 110 K and counting...
2006 Bushtec Turbo+2 Spell
2004 330 Ci Convertable
K4AN

Have ridden a Motorcycle in all 48
But lack DE, MA, RI and CT with the 2005 LT

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post #45 of 50 Old Dec 7th, 2016, 10:22 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

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You are welcome. If you do need to ride it some where and you are worried about the lights going out you can do a risky fix for it. After you start the bike, place a small jumper wire (alligator clips on each end) between the starter tie point and the ground tie point. This will ensure the load shed relay gets its ground. Just be sure to remove it before you start the bike again or it will fry. That is why I said a small jumper. Strong enough for the load shed relay but will disintegrate if you forget it and try to start the bike.
That is a good suggestion if you are careful about it. I chose a point farthest from me in the town where Cedric lives and it will be at most a 20 mile ride. From the intersection of McGinnis Ferry and 141. it is 10 or less. One day I will have a trailer

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #46 of 50 Old Dec 12th, 2016, 5:04 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Thanks for the suggestion John. As I am not too far away from Gordon I will ride during the day, the lights may flicker or stay on. I am about 6 miles away from McGinnis Ferry and the 141, so looks like a 16 mile trip. Not to shabby. What is the stubby manifold?
I only noticed Matt's comments today, sorry about that. I agree with the ventilation system, anything that is worthwhile doing with the engine exposed now will a good investment.
The starter motor I ordered off ebay for $150.00 arrived today. Pictures attached with the company that has them in case anyone is interested. It is really a good price for a new starter.
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post #47 of 50 Old Dec 12th, 2016, 9:09 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by grayc03 View Post
Thanks for the suggestion John. As I am not too far away from Gordon I will ride during the day, the lights may flicker or stay on. I am about 6 miles away from McGinnis Ferry and the 141, so looks like a 16 mile trip. Not to shabby. What is the stubby manifold?
I only noticed Matt's comments today, sorry about that. I agree with the ventilation system, anything that is worthwhile doing with the engine exposed now will a good investment.
The starter motor I ordered off ebay for $150.00 arrived today. Pictures attached with the company that has them in case anyone is interested. It is really a good price for a new starter.
Interesting that the starter has a label on it from Millidgeville Ga.

The bike has a plastic breather manifold that runs from the top of the block, up to the back side of the throttle bodies. It is like a PVC system for crank case ventilation but the manifold comes in above the butterfly valves so there is no vacuum on this part of the crank case. Being made of plastic, it deteriorates and will crack and leak condensed oil all over the top of your engine. At $90 for a new piece of plastic, many of us have decided to make a more permanent replacement from copper. When I did mine, I made a full sized replacement but others came up with the idea of a stubby one which I quickly mocked up as an example for others so I could photograph it. I already had the parts left over from my own attempt so there was no cost.

See the pictures below. Original, copper full sized and copper stubby. The stubby would simply attach to the crank case vent and use longer hoses to reach the TB where the original and my full version used a single hose to attach back to the crank case vent.

If you want the original part, feel free to order one. I freely make my stubby one available to you at no cost though.

11 15 1 465 009 DISTRIBUTION HOSE 0.13 1 $93.31

and 4 of these
17 11 1 460 922 HOSE CLAMP - D=12,3MM 4 $3.91
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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Last edited by bmwcoolk1200; Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:18 pm.
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post #48 of 50 Old Dec 29th, 2016, 4:35 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

For those of you who may be interested, grayc03 and I just finished replacing his starter for the intermittent issue he had with the ground through the starter for the load shed relay. The starter definitely fixed the issue. #2 transmission drop completed but this time with only one small issue. We forgot to unplug the engine temp sensor before dropping the engine. Only a $120 mistake as it damaged the wires right at the sensor so no way to repair it.

As for the starter, I took it apart and it looks pretty worn. My guess is reverse was used a lot by the previous owners as it only has 31K on the odometer. If anyone has ever measured the new brush length, I would be interested in knowing just how much these are worn. There is a ton of brush dust inside so I think they are work pretty much to the point of having this issue. The remaining lengths i measured are 9.59, 9.44 and 8.88 mm and I figure they are a good bit longer new.

Pictures attached of the job, the starter and the $120 mistake.
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Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #49 of 50 Old Dec 29th, 2016, 5:46 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
For those of you who may be interested, grayc03 and I just finished replacing his starter for the intermittent issue he had with the ground through the starter for the load shed relay. The starter definitely fixed the issue. #2 transmission drop completed but this time with only one small issue. We forgot to unplug the engine temp sensor before dropping the engine. Only a $120 mistake as it damaged the wires right at the sensor so no way to repair it.

As for the starter, I took it apart and it looks pretty worn. My guess is reverse was used a lot by the previous owners as it only has 31K on the odometer. If anyone has ever measured the new brush length, I would be interested in knowing just how much these are worn. There is a ton of brush dust inside so I think they are work pretty much to the point of having this issue. The remaining lengths i measured are 9.59, 9.44 and 8.88 mm and I figure they are a good bit longer new.

Pictures attached of the job, the starter and the $120 mistake.
That starter looks pretty bad. Probably shorted between windings where the brushes ride. Looks like either lots of reversing, which is hard to imagine, or maybe a stuck relay which keep the starter running.

The mistake is a pain, but on the bright side, only a little more than an hour's labor at most BMW shops.

2017 KLR650 "Mule"
2007 K1200LT "Starship Enterprise", VOICE II, Navigator V, Motorrad Communicator
1987 Kawasaki Voyager XII
1976 Kawasaki KH400
1973 Kawasaki 100 G5
1970 Rockford Chibi (the orange one)

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post #50 of 50 Old Dec 29th, 2016, 6:07 pm
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Re: Intermittent starting issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
That starter looks pretty bad. Probably shorted between windings where the brushes ride. Looks like either lots of reversing, which is hard to imagine, or maybe a stuck relay which keep the starter running.

The mistake is a pain, but on the bright side, only a little more than an hour's labor at most BMW shops.
Still, a preventable mistake. The 3rd picture clearly shows the sensor still attached. Oops!!!! Just a note on the new starter, it looks like it came with the wrong ( smaller ) o-ring for the engine side. It didn't even look like it came up above the flange and did not fill the channel like the old one did so we swapped them to hopefully prevent a leak. Something to pay attention to on these after market starters.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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