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post #1 of 83 Old Jul 30th, 2016, 10:45 pm Thread Starter
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No Prime on Fuel Pump

I have been reading every post on fuel pumps and electrical issues on here and cannot find an answer to my problem.

Problem: When I turn key, fuel pump does not prime. Bike will fire but will not start. Put other hot connector on pump, it kicks on and runs, change back and still not running. It is not fuel related, battery related or plug related.

I have checked the fuse (#4) and the relay behind motronic and cannot tell if either one is damaged but they look clean. Check all wiring from fuel pump and see no damaged wires.

QUESTIONS: New performance chip was not set right, two front pins missed the pin holes. Tried to start with this config, would not start. Replaced with stock chip, will fire but not run. Is it possible that I damaged the motronic unit?

Any other tests, electrical, that I can try?

Really stumped on this one and have spent many hours working on it. Thanks for any input.
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post #2 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:10 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
I have been reading every post on fuel pumps and electrical issues on here and cannot find an answer to my problem.

Problem: When I turn key, fuel pump does not prime. Bike will fire but will not start. Put other hot connector on pump, it kicks on and runs, change back and still not running. It is not fuel related, battery related or plug related.

I have checked the fuse (#4) and the relay behind motronic and cannot tell if either one is damaged but they look clean. Check all wiring from fuel pump and see no damaged wires.

QUESTIONS: New performance chip was not set right, two front pins missed the pin holes. Tried to start with this config, would not start. Replaced with stock chip, will fire but not run. Is it possible that I damaged the motronic unit?

Any other tests, electrical, that I can try?

Really stumped on this one and have spent many hours working on it. Thanks for any input.
So, it ran fine up to the point where you swapped the chip, then you had that chip in with 2 pins not in the socket. And now with the original chip, it will not run?

The chip should only be a program loaded by the motronic so if you put power to the pump and it starts and runs, I would say you have the original chip in correctly.

It is possible that you damaged something in the motronic by swapping the chip. Did you practice proper static procedures when doing the swap? If not, then there is a chance of damage by static electricity. Not sure how to test for that other than swapping out the motronic or tracing the line back that runs the fuel pump relay. Not an easy task.

Someone else may have some ideas. I will be looking at the schematics in the Clymer to see if they shed any light.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #3 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:16 am Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

The stock chip was put in safely so I don't think the motronic is damaged but it will pricey to replace if that is it, unless someone has one lying around . Did put volt meter on fuse #4 and found no power coming to it but again, could be a bad read or attempt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
So, it ran fine up to the point where you swapped the chip, then you had that chip in with 2 pins not in the socket. And now with the original chip, it will not run?

The chip should only be a program loaded by the motronic so if you put power to the pump and it starts and runs, I would say you have the original chip in correctly.

It is possible that you damaged something in the motronic by swapping the chip. Did you practice proper static procedures when doing the swap? If not, then there is a chance of damage by static electricity. Not sure how to test for that other than swapping out the motronic or tracing the line back that runs the fuel pump relay. Not an easy task.

Someone else may have some ideas. I will be looking at the schematics in the Clymer to see if they shed any light.
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post #4 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:24 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
The stock chip was put in safely so I don't think the motronic is damaged but it will pricey to replace if that is it, unless someone has one lying around . Did put volt meter on fuse #4 and found no power coming to it but again, could be a bad read or attempt.
If I am looking at it correctly, and if the Clymer schematic is correct, it looks like pin 16 on the motronic is possibly the triger line for the fuel pump. If you don't get a +12 on that pin when you hit the key for the prime sequence, then I would say something in the Motronic is damaged as that looks to trigger the relay. If you do get the prime pulse, then you can look further down stream. Looks like a blue with red stripe wire.
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post #5 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:27 am Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Thanks, I will check that in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
If I am looking at it correctly, and if the Clymer schematic is correct, it looks like pin 16 on the motronic is possibly the triger line for the fuel pump. If you don't get a +12 on that pin when you hit the key for the prime sequence, then I would say something in the Motronic is damaged as that looks to trigger the relay. If you do get the prime pulse, then you can look further down stream. Looks like a blue with red stripe wire.
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post #6 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:32 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Thanks, I will check that in the morning.
I think JZ also said this goes through the motronic relay and according to the schematic, it does. Fuse box 1 fuse 1 is a 4A fuse that might be involved through the multi function switch. Check that also.
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post #7 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 8:16 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

In reading JZ,s post on the other thread you dug up, it looks like that pin 16 is going to be an active circuit ground so the 12V should be there when the pump is not running and the motronic is not grounding the circuit. In that case, the 12V will not originate from the motronic.
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post #8 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 12:27 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
Problem: When I turn key, fuel pump does not prime. Bike will fire but will not start. Put other hot connector on pump, it kicks on and runs, change back and still not running. It is not fuel related, battery related or plug related.
So, by "kicks on & runs" I assume that you mean the fuel pump runs, and the engine never started. (the hot connector near the pump connector is known to run the pump backward).

If you think that you killed the ECU, You can get a new (used) one on Ebay for 50 bucks or less.
Just make sure it's from the same year or newer.

Rand & Susan Hawksworth
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post #9 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 3:33 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

No, the fuel pump nevers kicks on when plugged in correctly and ignition turned on. The next step, since the relays and fuses are all good, is to try a new motronic. I need to get my serial numbers and buy one. Thanks Rhawk2.

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So, by "kicks on & runs" I assume that you mean the fuel pump runs, and the engine never started. (the hot connector near the pump connector is known to run the pump backward).

If you think that you killed the ECU, You can get a new (used) one on Ebay for 50 bucks or less.
Just make sure it's from the same year or newer.
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post #10 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 3:34 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

I will sell it for $3200, cash and carry or cash and tow. It's not like I will be able to ride it anytime soon after this foot injury.
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post #11 of 83 Old Jul 31st, 2016, 8:18 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Fuse F4 is tied to always on 12V. So it should be hot all the time. Check both sides of the fuse to ground with a meter. If one side is hot and the other isn't then the fuse is blown.
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post #12 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 1:10 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Could he swap wires to the plug to the accessory plug so that it runs the pump in the proper direction? Pump would run at key on.

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post #13 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 8:09 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Could he swap wires to the plug to the accessory plug so that it runs the pump in the proper direction? Pump would run at key on.
He could do that as a test to see if the bike would then run but disabling safety features is not a good thing, ever.

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post #14 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 4:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Do I replace the relay or go straight to the motronic?
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post #15 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 4:41 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Do I replace the relay or go straight to the motronic?
First thing I would do is to pull F4 out as JZ said and measure again between both sides of the fuse plug and the battery negative to see if there is +12 on either side. I believe that comes directly from the battery and then feeds the ignition switch which I think then feeds the relays and a few other things.

Don't have my Clymer at work to reference the schematic at the moment to be sure of what I am saying. Trying to remember what I looked at after JZ said to check F4 again that it was always HOT.


alabrew made a suggestion of swapping the wires around in the Accessory plug ( always hot with key on ) and putting it on the fuel pump as the plug is the same only wired backwards so pump runs backwards. If you did this to see if the bike would actually start, I would not leave it like,that as a pump that runs even when the motor stops is a danger to continue ejecting fuel in the case of a leak even if the bike stops running.

Part of the interlocks that shut off the pump from certain conditions like the kill switch in the off position or no pulses from the Hall crank sensor.

If you don't have +12 on F4 then that is what you need to look at first. Let us know what you find there and get a good read this time
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post #16 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 6:01 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Just tested Fuse 4 on the first block and have 0 volts going through it. Any thoughts?
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post #17 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 6:56 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Just tested Fuse 4 on the first block and have 0 volts going through it. Any thoughts?
Can you describe exactly how you measured and where? What you wrote makes no sense as voltage doesn't "move" and can't go through anything.
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post #18 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 9:57 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Actually if the leads were on either side of the fuse and power is on that would indicate a good fuse. BUT, voltage needs to measured from at least one end to ground, to verify that voltage is present in the first place.

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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Just wanted to make sure you are on the right fuse. If there is no 12v on either end of this fuse then you have a harness problem.
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post #20 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 10:13 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Using a volt meter, placed black lead on - battery side and touched red lead to both sides of fuse 4. Each read showed continuity but no voltage. I tried with and without ignition on.

I am not an electrician by trade so I very well could be checking the fuse incorrectly.

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Can you describe exactly how you measured and where? What you wrote makes no sense as voltage doesn't "move" and can't go through anything.
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post #21 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 10:15 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Fuse #4 is to the fuel pump. I even switched fuses with #3 as they are both 15A.

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Just wanted to make sure you are on the right fuse. If there is no 12v on either end of this fuse then you have a harness problem.
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post #22 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 10:18 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

OK the best way is to place the meter in "volts DC", 20 if that choice is available. Then place the black lead on the battery negative terminal and the red lead to either side of the fuse F4 socket. With the fuse out you should get a 12 v indication on one of the socket sides. Then insert the fuse and repeat on the fuse (there are little holes to probe the fuse). You should now see 12v on each side if the fuse is good.

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post #23 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 10:21 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Using a volt meter, placed black lead on - battery side and touched red lead to both sides of fuse 4. Each read showed continuity but no voltage. I tried with and without ignition on.

I am not an electrician by trade so I very well could be checking the fuse incorrectly.
OK, black lead on voltmeter to negative of battery, (brown wires) red on voltmeter to either side of fuse you should get 12 volts. Make sure the meter lead and scale are set to measure DC voltage, not AC or Ohms.

HTH

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post #24 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 10:30 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Okay, so my volt meter is shot. It not working properly at all. I am getting a new one tomorrow and will do more proper fact checking and post my results ASAP. Thank you to everyone for the input.
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post #25 of 83 Old Aug 1st, 2016, 11:00 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Okay, so my volt meter is shot. It not working properly at all. I am getting a new one tomorrow and will do more proper fact checking and post my results ASAP. Thank you to everyone for the input.
Well, here are some pictures I just took to aid you in this quest.

First do a voltage check across the battery making sure the meter is not set to measure current but DC Volts. If you get sparks, it is set wrong. Most meters require you to move one of the leads to a different hole on the meter to measure current.


Second, and I am lucky i have a ground point close to the fuse block so I can take pictures with one hand. Check the bottom fuse in the right most fuse box. Mine is a 2001 and is on a tender so my volts are up there.

If you do not get the required 12V + then as John said, you have a harness issue.

My ignition was in the off position for this measurement.
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post #26 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 7:06 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Okay, so my volt meter is shot. It not working properly at all. I am getting a new one tomorrow and will do more proper fact checking and post my results ASAP. Thank you to everyone for the input.
Did you check it on a known good battery? Say in your car? How do you know it is shot?

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post #27 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 9:36 am Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

I have a volt meter not a voltage indicator. Mine only indicates volts and when I placed on full charged battery there was nothing. It's like me, rather old and defective.

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Did you check it on a known good battery? Say in your car? How do you know it is shot?
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post #28 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 10:16 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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I have a volt meter not a voltage indicator. Mine only indicates volts and when I placed on full charged battery there was nothing. It's like me, rather old and defective.
I have no idea what you mean here. You say you have a volt meter, not a voltage indicator, but then say it only indicates volts??

Posting a picture of what you are using and how you are using it would be most helpful. I don't mean to insult you, but it sounds like you aren't too familiar with things electrical and troubleshooting thereof. It might be good to try to find a forum member nearby who can give you some live help to get your problem sorted and get you back on the road.
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post #29 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 10:45 am
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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I have no idea what you mean here. You say you have a volt meter, not a voltage indicator, but then say it only indicates volts??

Posting a picture of what you are using and how you are using it would be most helpful. I don't mean to insult you, but it sounds like you aren't too familiar with things electrical and troubleshooting thereof. It might be good to try to find a forum member nearby who can give you some live help to get your problem sorted and get you back on the road.
I have a voltage indicator. It is a device that lights up when you get near to a live AC circuit like a wall socket but it does not have to make actual contact with a live wire. Doesn't do anything for DC.

A picture of what Snape is using and how it is configured might be a good thing. Possibly on AC and not DC.

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post #30 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 12:34 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Here is my old volt meter on the battery (which turns over the bike) and the #4 fuse (removed).
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post #31 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 1:05 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Here is my old volt meter on the battery (which turns over the bike) and the #4 fuse (removed).
I haven't seen one of those in a very long time.

I see how the LED lights in the battery picture and not in the fuse picture. I see you hitting one side of the fuse plug and am assuming that you tried both sides where the fuse tabs plug into the fuse block and no joy.

I also see what looks like cut and spliced wires all around the battery connections that are not stock. Have you looked down in front of the battery to make sure a wire has not pulled off the crimp. There is obviously some wire connection off the positive battery post that is missing.
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post #32 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 4:29 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

I am going to give a good look over tomorrow. I am just about ready to load it on a trailer and take it to BMW in STL and cough up the money to fix it and be done with it. Unable to find anyone around here who is BMW capable.
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post #33 of 83 Old Aug 2nd, 2016, 4:46 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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I am going to give a good look over tomorrow. I am just about ready to load it on a trailer and take it to BMW in STL and cough up the money to fix it and be done with it. Unable to find anyone around here who is BMW capable.
Good luck. I wish I was closer and I would come help you try and fix it in person.
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post #34 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 4:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Attached new multimeter to battery- 12.79, to fuse #4- 12.79 (both sides), connection to fuel pump- 3.5 with ignition on.

So from the fuses to the fuel pump connection, there is a tremendous drop in power. Any ideas on what to check next?

I pulled the motronic to find another one (pic attached) so if anyone has a spare that they are willing to part with, please let me know.
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post #35 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 4:34 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
Attached new multimeter to battery- 12.79, to fuse #4- 12.79 (both sides), connection to fuel pump- 3.5 with ignition on.

So from the fuses to the fuel pump connection, there is a tremendous drop in power. Any ideas on what to check next?

I pulled the motronic to find another one (pic attached) so if anyone has a spare that they are willing to part with, please let me know.
Picture #3 looks like you are on the brown wire which is normally ground on the LT. Need to be on the Green/White stripe wire. You can double check this with the other plug just below on the red/white wire as that should be hot all the time and the brown is ground.

With ignition on, the pump will only be at 12V for a few seconds to prime. After that, it requires the motor to be running with pulses from the hall sensor to activate it again.

If you didn't do this, plug in your meter to the pump plug and then turn the key on. You normally would see the 12V and then it will go away. If you flip the kill switch on and off, it should cycle the pump. Is there any change at all as you cycle the kill switch? While you have the tank off, can you gt to the pump relay and check for 12V there? If you have 12V there then you have a bad ground or a bad relay or the motronic is not triggering the relay. Should hear the relay click I think.

I have never done troubleshooting on these components so this is what I would try to do if i had it in front of me. Again, no Clymer in front of me to look at schematics till this evening.

If you know how to check continuity with that meter, you can check if there is a good ground on the brown wire to the battery post.
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post #36 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 4:55 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Picture #3 looks like you are on the brown wire which is normally ground on the LT. Need to be on the Green/White stripe wire. You can double check this with the other plug just below on the red/white wire as that should be hot all the time and the brown is ground.

With ignition on, the pump will only be at 12V for a few seconds to prime. After that, it requires the motor to be running with pulses from the all sensor to activate it again.

If you didn't do this, plug in your meter to the pump plug and then turn the key on. You normally would see the 12V and then it will go away. If you flip the kill switch on and off, it should cycle the pump. Is there any change at all as you cycle the kill switch? While you have the tank off, can you gt to the pump relay and check for 12V there? If you have 12V there then you have a bad ground or a bad relay or the motronic is not triggering the relay. Should hear the relay click I think.

I have never done troubleshooting on these components so this is what I would try to do if i had it in front of me. Again, no Clymer in front of me to look at schematics till this evening.

If you know how to check continuity with that meter, you can check if there is a good ground on the brown wire to the battery post.
Good info..
In addition to above, it is IMPORTANT to note that the fuel-pump will NOT prime IF any sensor/switch related to starter interlocks is in wrong position (or defective). This includes:
(1) Neutral switch (is in fact the sensor signaling in which gear you are, including green light NEUTRAL signal on dash)
(2) clutch switch (signal that clutch is pulled when NOT in neutral)
(3) side-stand switch (includes a signal for UP and a signal for DOWN using 3 wires logic)
(4) handlebar-bar KILL switch in middle and functionning
(5) Alarm / Immobilizer function in incorrect position (if this option exist on your bike)

This OK signal (starter interlock is NOT active) is given to you on dash after ignition ON (do NOT start engine - wait 3 seconds). If the RED engine coolant light dash light is ON (thermometer shape), then the Motronic EFI is ready to start -AND- the fuel pump should have primed for 2 seconds.
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post #37 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 5:05 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Put meter on connector for fuel pump and turned ignition on, got 3.5 V on a constant level, no up or down. Called BMW in St. Louis and spoke with tech there and outlined problem (dude was a saint), he recommends replacing motronic as this is where the problem would lie.

Going online to look for one now. If anyone has a spare motronic and would like to sell it, please PM me.

Thanks!!!!
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post #38 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 5:27 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
Put meter on connector for fuel pump and turned ignition on, got 3.5 V on a constant level, no up or down. Called BMW in St. Louis and spoke with tech there and outlined problem (dude was a saint), he recommends replacing motronic as this is where the problem would lie.

Going online to look for one now. If anyone has a spare motronic and would like to sell it, please PM me.

Thanks!!!!
You did NOT answered if you do see the Engine_coolant RED light active after ignition ON (no engine start).
Unless you have this, then there is no point in buying a used Motronic EFI unit as you would need to eliminate all item in list I gave earlier (starter interlocks).

If indeed the TECH at BMW in St-Louis is correct (I am not convinced yet), then you need to shop for either these 2 part number of Motronic unit for your bike - nothing else is 100% garantee to work on your model year:
(1) number on unit: 7 655 478 (same as yours)
(2) number on unit: 7 659 048 (unit introduced in July 2000 production in reference to Brown-Wire Service-bulletin)

Note that ECU unit with part number "1 465 194" would also work BUT these are older 1st generation unit that cannot be upgraded with newer performance Chip (from 3rd party) should you ever choose to go that way. Hence, I would stay away.
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post #39 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 5:39 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Red coolant light is on, as is Neutral, Battery and Flashing ABS lights (need to bleed brakes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
You did NOT answered if you do see the Engine_coolant RED light active after ignition ON (no engine start).
Unless you have this, then there is no point in buying a used Motronic EFI unit as you would need to eliminate all item in list I gave earlier (starter interlocks).

If indeed the TECH at BMW in St-Louis is correct (I am not convinced yet), then you need to shop for either these 2 part number of Motronic unit for your bike - nothing else is 100% garantee to work on your model year:
(1) number on unit: 7 655 478 (same as yours)
(2) number on unit: 7 659 048 (unit introduced in July 2000 production in reference to Brown-Wire Service-bulletin)

Note that ECU unit with part number "1 465 194" would also work BUT these are older 1st generation unit that cannot be upgraded with newer performance Chip (from 3rd party) should you ever choose to go that way. Hence, I would stay away.
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post #40 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 5:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Sorry, sailor, I did check all of the items you posted to make sure they were not part of the problem. I couldn't remember if the red coolant light was on and had to come out and check.

Would you recommend the motronic being replaced? I could have easily screwed it up when I messed with the upgrade chip.
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post #41 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 7:07 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Red coolant light is on, as is Neutral, Battery and Flashing ABS lights (need to bleed brakes).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfSnape View Post
Sorry, sailor, I did check all of the items you posted to make sure they were not part of the problem. I couldn't remember if the red coolant light was on and had to come out and check.

Would you recommend the motronic being replaced? I could have easily screwed it up when I messed with the upgrade chip.
Well.... I want to make sure nothing is "assumed" in troubleshooting, so let me repeat a few items just to be sure:

So... if indeed you see the RED coolant light before starting -AND- also assuming that there is no prime signal (12 volts) at the fuel-pump connector during the initial 2 seconds prime (after ignition ON), THEN I would say there is a low probability the Motronic unit is defective. NORMALLY, when no one had been there to tamper the Motronic unit, I would say it NOT very probable it is defective, but in your case, there is a high probability (while installing upgrade chip).

FURTHERMORE, Before you buy a used replacement Motronic:
(1) we have to be certain it is not only the upgrade chip that has been damage during chip swap... Hence, I am also assuming you have tried to install back the original chip into the Moronic unit to eliminate this possibility.

(2) we have to be certain it is not a single Pin of the Motronic unit that is damaged or doing a loose/bad connection into main harness (when the Motronic unit was was pushed back). So you should carefully check the female side (main harness into plastic junction box) using a flashlight for all pins, but mainly for Pin # 16 as this is the one in control of Fuel-Pump Relay. See attached image for pins sequence...

I hope I am making sense here as my main language is French ;-)
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post #42 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 8:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

You are making perfect sense. I will check motronic pins and harness for solid connections. I believe my tampering with the upgrade screwed up the motronic simply because I am more like a blunt hammer than an experienced surgeon.

Thank you for the great data, I will be checking these tonight and let you know what I find!



Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Well.... I want to make sure nothing is "assumed" in troubleshooting, so let me repeat a few items just to be sure:

So... if indeed you see the RED coolant light before starting -AND- also assuming that there is no prime signal (12 volts) at the fuel-pump connector during the initial 2 seconds prime (after ignition ON), THEN I would say there is a low probability the Motronic unit is defective. NORMALLY, when no one had been there to tamper the Motronic unit, I would say it NOT very probable it is defective, but in your case, there is a high probability (while installing upgrade chip).

FURTHERMORE, Before you buy a used replacement Motronic:
(1) we have to be certain it is not only the upgrade chip that has been damage during chip swap... Hence, I am also assuming you have tried to install back the original chip into the Moronic unit to eliminate this possibility.

(2) we have to be certain it is not a single Pin of the Motronic unit that is damaged or doing a loose/bad connection into main harness (when the Motronic unit was was pushed back). So you should carefully check the female side (main harness into plastic junction box) using a flashlight for all pins, but mainly for Pin # 16 as this is the one in control of Fuel-Pump Relay. See attached image for pins sequence...

I hope I am making sense here as my main language is French ;-)
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post #43 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 8:27 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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You are making perfect sense. I will check motronic pins and harness for solid connections. I believe my tampering with the upgrade screwed up the motronic simply because I am more like a blunt hammer than an experienced surgeon.

Thank you for the great data, I will be checking these tonight and let you know what I find!
Do NOT forget that when you are looking at Motronic female connector on bike (from the air-box side - left side of bike), the pin positions are mirror image of my earlier picture. So... PIN 16 is on lower row toward front of bike:
(A) pin 18 being the most forward PIN in lower row (toward front of bike)
(B) pin 1 being the 1st toward rear of bike (when looking / facing from airbox side)
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post #44 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 8:54 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Do NOT forget that when you are looking at Motronic female connector on bike (from the air-box side - left side of bike), the pin positions are mirror image of my earlier picture. So... PIN 16 is on lower row toward front of bike:
(A) pin 18 being the most forward PIN in lower row (toward front of bike)
(B) pin 1 being the 1st toward rear of bike (when looking / facing from airbox side)
Sailor, I have not had to mess with the Motronic so I am not familiar with its connector(s), but since it appears that it switches ground to run the pump, is the connector of a type that would accept a probe into the back of the pin? Or is it a sealed type? If he could attach a jumper to known ground and get a pin probe into the cable side of the connector, that should allow the ECU to be confirmed as the problem.

If the ECU is at fault, it should be possible to run the pi P by sticking a grounded probe into the back side of the proper pin. Or, and I hate to do this, cut that wire a few inches back from the connector and ground it solidly. Then you have to splice it and I hate splices. Trickier, but more preferable is to carefully slice the insulation off one side of the wire and ground that. Then cover with liquid tape and a wrap or two of electrical tape.

I would want to ground the wire at some point at or very close to the ECU connector before spending money for a used ECU that may come with its own issues.
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post #45 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:07 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

New interesting fact...checked pin 18 on harness side, getting 11.98 volts coming to it without Motronic in. So power is getting to the Motronic pin but not going through the Motronic. Correct?



Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Do NOT forget that when you are looking at Motronic female connector on bike (from the air-box side - left side of bike), the pin positions are mirror image of my earlier picture. So... PIN 16 is on lower row toward front of bike:
(A) pin 18 being the most forward PIN in lower row (toward front of bike)
(B) pin 1 being the 1st toward rear of bike (when looking / facing from airbox side)
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post #46 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:18 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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New interesting fact...checked pin 18 on harness side, getting 11.98 volts coming to it without Motronic in. So power is getting to the Motronic pin but not going through the Motronic. Correct?
Yes and no. Even with a high resistance in a circuit, you will see the voltage in an open circuit test. However, a short circuit test will yield very little current flow which would not run a motor.

If voltage is provided to the pump without needing the ECU connector in place, you should be able to short that pin to ground and run the motor. That would clearly indicate the ECU as the culprit assuming the pump runs when you ground the pin.

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post #47 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:24 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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New interesting fact...checked pin 18 on harness side, getting 11.98 volts coming to it without Motronic in. So power is getting to the Motronic pin but not going through the Motronic. Correct?
Please re-read my message, I refer to pin 18 only because it was a reference point being the last of the lowest row. Of course, you must get power there as this the power source to the RED coolant warning on dash also

For the Fuel-pump relay, the one we need to check for damage -OR- being loose or not tight enough on female side is Pin 16 (just 2 before end of row). You cannot and should NOT expect power there on Pin 16 as it is only a ground point toward Motronic (the grounding happens at proper time within the Motronic unit).

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post #48 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:34 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

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Sailor, I have not had to mess with the Motronic so I am not familiar with its connector(s), but since it appears that it switches ground to run the pump, is the connector of a type that would accept a probe into the back of the pin? Or is it a sealed type? If he could attach a jumper to known ground and get a pin probe into the cable side of the connector, that should allow the ECU to be confirmed as the problem.

If the ECU is at fault, it should be possible to run the pi P by sticking a grounded probe into the back side of the proper pin. Or, and I hate to do this, cut that wire a few inches back from the connector and ground it solidly. Then you have to splice it and I hate splices. Trickier, but more preferable is to carefully slice the insulation off one side of the wire and ground that. Then cover with liquid tape and a wrap or two of electrical tape.

I would want to ground the wire at some point at or very close to the ECU connector before spending money for a used ECU that may come with its own issues.
OF course because your background is in Electrical engineering (if I remember correctly), I would have suggested some of these ideas you have posted above (testing ground point function on pin 16 when the ignition is turned ON). The Fuel-pump relay circuitry is completed by grounding Pin 16 inside Motronic.

But to be honest, I cannot suggest / propose some of these higher risk ideas on forums with everyone as they might blow up something or their Motronic unit. In certain circumstances, the original poster could find himself in worst situation he was initially when problem was posted. I have no control over their actions so I play it safe.

Some of these tests I have not done myself, although I would certainly try them if it was my own bike within certain limitations / protection of circuits.

Shutting down for tonight - see you all tomorrow ;-)
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post #49 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:43 pm Thread Starter
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

Sorry, electrical engineering is not my occupation ( as I would make a pretty crappy one). I went ahead and purchased a used Motronic from Ebay and will test it when it comes in. My money is on either the relay behind motronic or the motronic itself as I have butchered the upgrade chip and pins singlehandedly.

Once the other motronic gets on I will update the status. Thanks again for all your help, gentlemen!
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post #50 of 83 Old Aug 3rd, 2016, 9:47 pm
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Re: No Prime on Fuel Pump

At this point to isolate the ECU as the cause of no fuel pump, I recommend a wire from ground be placed into the pin 16 receptacle on the BIKE side ECU connector. Then turn on the key. This should ground the fuel pump relay coil and close the contacts powering the fuel pump. If the pump runs now then the ECU is bad.
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