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post #1 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 10:16 am Thread Starter
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Possibly bad gas...burp!

Hi All,

After filling up and having breakfast outside of Dayton, OH the LT started running rough (knocking), hesitating in 1st & 2nd and the bike died at a stop light. Restarted and ran okay cruising in 5th, but bad gas mileage until the next fill up. Still have the same issues with that last fill up, but I think I haven't run through all of the bad gas. If it was indeed bad.
I have cycled the battery and did a reset of the TSP. GS-911 showed TVA faults, which I cleared, showing idle activator (IA) possibly out of adjustment. O2 sensor tested okay.
Bike was running great until the Dayton fill up.
Anyone have an issue with bad gas and when the LT finally started running well again or could it really be an IA issue?

Thanks,
Jer
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post #2 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 10:30 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
Hi All,

After filling up and having breakfast outside of Dayton, OH the LT started running rough (knocking), hesitating in 1st & 2nd and the bike died at a stop light. Restarted and ran okay cruising in 5th, but bad gas mileage until the next fill up. Still have the same issues with that last fill up, but I think I haven't run through all of the bad gas. If it was indeed bad.
I have cycled the battery and did a reset of the TSP. GS-911 showed TVA faults, which I cleared, showing idle activator (IA) possibly out of adjustment. O2 sensor tested okay.
Bike was running great until the Dayton fill up.
Anyone have an issue with bad gas and when the LT finally started running well again or could it really be an IA issue?

Thanks,
Jer
The TVA would not cause your bike to run badly. It might idle high or not at all but should run normally otherwise and it wouldn't affect mileage.

I would do a visual check of the fuel in the tank and look for swirling when you turn the key to on and the pump cycles. Something as sudden as that could be the start of a split in the internal fuel lines if they have never been changed out.

Just curious, are you running premium?
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post #3 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 10:48 am Thread Starter
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I replaced the lines on the fuel pump with the new plastic fuel lines being sold, so don't think there's a split, but will check. Yes, it was a hot day, so premium was purchased, which I use for ~90% of fill ups.

Thanks,
Jer
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post #4 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 11:37 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Bike was running great until the Dayton fill up.
Anyone have an issue with bad gas and when the LT finally started running well again or could it really be an IA issue?
During the Butt Lite 8 rally earlier this month, an Australian competitor pumped a tankful of gasoline and water into his tanks. His bike ran for a couple mile before running rough and finally quitting. It delayed his rally for over 24 hours and nearly disqualified him for being time barred at the Reno checkpoint. So, water in the gas does happen. I briefly spoke to him at the checkpoint and he said the Kansas area had recently been saturated with heavy rain.

The mechanic assisting him used a product called HEET (How to Use HEET® Gas-Line Antifreeze & Water Remover FAQs | Gold Eagle) in an attempt to resolve the water issue. Unfortunately, there was a significant amount of water in the fuel and the product did not work. He had to completely drain his main and aux tanks to correct the issue.

My advice is to first try the "pour and pray" method of HEET followed by draining your tank if HEET did not work. I those both fail, I defer to the wise ones on the forum.

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post #5 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 2:25 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

The water seriously messes with your fuel filter also. I hate to say this but I would also go in there and change out the filter.

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post #6 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 3:27 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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I replaced the lines on the fuel pump with the new plastic fuel lines being sold, so don't think there's a split, but will check. Yes, it was a hot day, so premium was purchased, which I use for ~90% of fill ups.

Thanks,
Jer
If your lines are the plastic ones which I also have, give it a check just in case but it is not likely them unless a clamp has come lose. I am with the others who have responded. Try the HEET method and if that fails, it is a lot of work but pull the tank and drain it completely into a clean container and examine for contaminants and replace the filter as Beech said. If there is any sigh of water in what you remove, you might have your answer. If not then on to the wiser ones.

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post #7 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 4:52 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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If your lines are the plastic ones which I also have, give it a check just in case but it is not likely them unless a clamp has come lose. I am with the others who have responded. Try the HEET method and if that fails, it is a lot of work but pull the tank and drain it completely into a clean container and examine for contaminants and replace the filter as Beech said. If there is any sigh of water in what you remove, you might have your answer. If not then on to the wiser ones.
I don't think you need to pull the tank. Remove the right fairing panel and the tip over frame. Siphon out as much fuel as possible (you can get all but a few ounces). Remove the fuel pump from the tank. Just remove it carefully so you don't bend anything. It will come out with the tank on the bike as I have done it. Rock the bike side to side to remove as much fuel as possible. Replace the filter as already recommended and then fill with good gas. Replace plastic and ride.

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post #8 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 4:59 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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I don't think you need to pull the tank. Remove the right fairing panel and the tip over frame. Siphon out as much fuel as possible (you can get all but a few ounces). Remove the fuel pump from the tank. Just remove it carefully so you don't bend anything. It will come out with the tank on the bike as I have done it. Rock the bike side to side to remove as much fuel as possible. Replace the filter as already recommended and then fill with good gas. Replace plastic and ride.
That is a good process laying the bike over on the left to pull out the pump without pulling the tank but it could get messy standing it back up trying to get all the liquid out of the tank It would work though.

Gordon
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post #9 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 5:17 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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That is a good process laying the bike over on the left to pull out the pump without pulling the tank but it could get messy standing it back up trying to get all the liquid out of the tank It would work though.
I wouldn't lay it over. I did mine on the centerstand. I siphoned the gas out and what little came out when I loosened the ring was absorbed by one shop rag.

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post #10 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 5:20 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
The TVA would not cause your bike to run badly. It might idle high or not at all but should run normally otherwise and it wouldn't affect mileage.

I would do a visual check of the fuel in the tank and look for swirling when you turn the key to on and the pump cycles. Something as sudden as that could be the start of a split in the internal fuel lines if they have never been changed out.

Just curious, are you running premium?
Well, did the visual check. Now why would I need to do THAT as I had replaced the lines, filter & pump during the winter of 2014 and it's been running GREAT!? Hell, if that's not the problem. Turned on the key, as I've read here numerous times as good advise to others, and there it was. Swirling gas! Darn! Nice to know I can do the repair and not have to limp it into the dealer.

Thanks all for your much appreciated, sage advise.
Jer

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post #11 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 5:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Also, thanks for the input on the process of removing the pump assembly. Never had to do it, but looks and seems to be do-able without removing the tank.

Thanks all, again,
Jer

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post #12 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 6:10 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

FYI, about siphoning gas without a pump or shooting it out your nose:


It's that easy, as I've used this method before.

HTH,
Jer
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post #13 of 60 Old Jul 18th, 2016, 8:54 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
Well, did the visual check. Now why would I need to do THAT as I had replaced the lines, filter & pump during the winter of 2014 and it's been running GREAT!? Hell, if that's not the problem. Turned on the key, as I've read here numerous times as good advise to others, and there it was. Swirling gas! Darn! Nice to know I can do the repair and not have to limp it into the dealer.

Thanks all for your much appreciated, sage advise.
Jer
Make sure you take a picture of the failure if possible. Several of us are running these lines and if it actually split or failed, it would be nice to know how it happened.

Hopefully that is it but may not be a good sign for these nylon lines if so.

Gordon
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1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #14 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 10:30 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
Well, did the visual check. Now why would I need to do THAT as I had replaced the lines, filter & pump during the winter of 2014 and it's been running GREAT!? Hell, if that's not the problem. Turned on the key, as I've read here numerous times as good advise to others, and there it was. Swirling gas! Darn! Nice to know I can do the repair and not have to limp it into the dealer.

Thanks all for your much appreciated, sage advise.
Jer
Another thing you can do is remove the sending unit from the top of the tank and the fuel lines are right there to look at. The only thing I would caution is if you try turning on the key with that opening, you may get sprayed in the face with gas from the leak so I would use a mirror to look in from the side if you wanted to examine it that way to see where it was leaking under pressure. Always use caution where gas is involved.

Check this thread out post #9 for pics of what you can see through the sending tube opening. You can also see if it is impacting anything inside causing abrasion.

http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/k1200lt/...fuel-line.html

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post #15 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 12:07 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

I picked up a bad tank of gas in Batesville, MS, where mom lives. I've never bought gas from that BP again. MPG dropped into the mid 30's rather than the normal 44. Thought my O2 sensor had gone. Once I got into the Great State of Alabama, I filled up and the problem went away, never to return.

BTW, speaking of fuel and I'm cautious to mention, but I have been buying Chevron Premium since reading in my 525i manual that BMW recommenced Chevron and Techron. Noticing that they are now allied with Shell, and it is a right on red to the Shell and a left at the light for Chevron, I put a tank of Shell in and noticed that my ave. mpg has gone up from 44 to 46. I ran another tank Chevron and it was back down to 44. A tank of Shell, up to 46 again. I'm pretty much a commuter, taking the same routes on a weekly basis.
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post #16 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 12:24 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
Also, thanks for the input on the process of removing the pump assembly. Never had to do it, but looks and seems to be do-able without removing the tank.

Thanks all, again,
Jer
It is pretty easy once you drain the tank. I used a small hand pump I picked up at Wal-Mart or the hardware store to siphon the gas out. Just make sure the hose is at the bottom of the fuel pump assembly while the bike is on the center stand. Once you can't get any more out put the bike on the side stand to make it a little more comfortable to work on. Pull the right side fairings and the two bolts for the crash bar frame and you'll be able to pull the assembly. Put a light coat of grease or Vaseline on the gasket to keep it from shrinking while you work on the lines and it will keep it from binding when you tighten the nut.
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post #17 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 7:16 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Make sure you take a picture of the failure if possible. Several of us are running these lines and if it actually split or failed, it would be nice to know how it happened.

Hopefully that is it but may not be a good sign for these nylon lines if so.
I removed the fuel pump assembly...looks perfectly fine. Before removing everything I did see swirling in the tank when I turned the key to the starting position. The swirling stopped after a few seconds, but I thought the pump just runs for a few.
What have I missed?

Jer

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post #18 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 8:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
I removed the fuel pump assembly...looks perfectly fine. Before removing everything I did see swirling in the tank when I turned the key to the starting position. The swirling stopped after a few seconds, but I thought the pump just runs for a few.
What have I missed?

Jer
On even closer inspection, I see some tiny gas bubbles coming out of the gas line at the input to the filter. Screw clamp is a bit farther away from butting up to the filter than the hose. Thinking a possible clogged/restricted filter, too.

Jer

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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

You might want to replace the screw clamps with Oeticher stainless steel clamps if/when you replace the filter. They can handle the higher pressures and good for submersible applications.

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post #20 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 9:07 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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You might want to replace the screw clamps with Oeticher stainless steel clamps if/when you replace the filter. They can handle the higher pressures and good for submersible applications.
The Oetiker clamps would have to be used carefully not to damage the nylon fuel lines he is using. The FI screw clamps are probably better for that particular application IMO.

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post #21 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 9:14 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
On even closer inspection, I see some tiny gas bubbles coming out of the gas line at the input to the filter. Screw clamp is a bit farther away from butting up to the filter than the hose. Thinking a possible clogged/restricted filter, too.

Jer
Did you find any water in the tank?

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post #22 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 9:41 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by alabrew View Post
I picked up a bad tank of gas in Batesville, MS, where mom lives. I've never bought gas from that BP again. MPG dropped into the mid 30's rather than the normal 44. Thought my O2 sensor had gone. Once I got into the Great State of Alabama, I filled up and the problem went away, never to return.

BTW, speaking of fuel and I'm cautious to mention, but I have been buying Chevron Premium since reading in my 525i manual that BMW recommenced Chevron and Techron. Noticing that they are now allied with Shell, and it is a right on red to the Shell and a left at the light for Chevron, I put a tank of Shell in and noticed that my ave. mpg has gone up from 44 to 46. I ran another tank Chevron and it was back down to 44. A tank of Shell, up to 46 again. I'm pretty much a commuter, taking the same routes on a weekly basis.
Its the alcohol level in the fuel... When I leave Cal. and Nevada and head north to Utah my mileage gets better. I always try to use Chevron as well.

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post #23 of 60 Old Jul 19th, 2016, 10:00 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNW003 View Post
You might want to replace the screw clamps with Oeticher stainless steel clamps if/when you replace the filter. They can handle the higher pressures and good for submersible applications.

Nothing wrong with screw clamps of the fuel injection type. They will take more pressure than the Oetikers and are reusable. Main issue is people tend to over tighten them.

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post #24 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 10:06 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
On even closer inspection, I see some tiny gas bubbles coming out of the gas line at the input to the filter. Screw clamp is a bit farther away from butting up to the filter than the hose. Thinking a possible clogged/restricted filter, too.

Jer
Without submerging it in a bucket of fuel it's hard to tell where it might be leaking without an obvious hole. The clamp may be tight but has a small area that fuel escapes by when it's under pressure. I'd be very cautious if you chose to try a bucket inspection since there is potential for ignition of the fuel.

I'm guessing you're using FI rated screw clamps not the normal worm gear hose clamps. If not, that could be the issue.
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post #25 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 10:41 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by St0rm1 View Post
Without submerging it in a bucket of fuel it's hard to tell where it might be leaking without an obvious hole. The clamp may be tight but has a small area that fuel escapes by when it's under pressure. I'd be very cautious if you chose to try a bucket inspection since there is potential for ignition of the fuel.

I'm guessing you're using FI rated screw clamps not the normal worm gear hose clamps. If not, that could be the issue.
William, both he and I are using the nylon fuel lines and I am making the assumption he is using the same ones I am sold by Euro Motoelectric and the kit comes with FI clamps. There are several others on this forum using them so I am sure they are paying attention. If someone is having an issue with them leaking, I know I want to know the reason so I can make sure the same thing doesn't happen to me. If it is just a lose clamp, that is easily fixed. If it has developed a hole, that goes toward durability over the stock rubber lines. It could also be an issue with the pump installed in 2014. Some of these after market pumps may not be all that great.

Waiting on a final diagnosis. I might put it back in the way it is and pull the sending tube out so I could look at it in operation as long as it wasn't making a fountain out onto the ground or into my face. Put a little fuel in and start it up and watch it.

Don't like the bucket idea because it won't develop the proper pressure open ended and if you blocked the output without a regulator, it could far exceed the rated pressure and burst the nylon lines or filter.

Gordon
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post #26 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 12:59 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by St0rm1 View Post
Without submerging it in a bucket of fuel it's hard to tell where it might be leaking without an obvious hole. The clamp may be tight but has a small area that fuel escapes by when it's under pressure. I'd be very cautious if you chose to try a bucket inspection since there is potential for ignition of the fuel.

I'm guessing you're using FI rated screw clamps not the normal worm gear hose clamps. If not, that could be the issue.
William, both he and I are using the nylon fuel lines and I am making the assumption he is using the same ones I am sold by Euro Motoelectric and the kit comes with FI clamps. There are several others on this forum using them so I am sure they are paying attention. If someone is having an issue with them leaking, I know I want to know the reason so I can make sure the same thing doesn't happen to me. If it is just a lose clamp, that is easily fixed. If it has developed a hole, that goes toward durability over the stock rubber lines. It could also be an issue with the pump installed in 2014. Some of these after market pumps may not be all that great.

Waiting on a final diagnosis. I might put it back in the way it is and pull the sending tube out so I could look at it in operation as long as it wasn't making a fountain out onto the ground or into my face. Put a little fuel in and start it up and watch it.

Don't like the bucket idea because it won't develop the proper pressure open ended and if you blocked the output without a regulator, it could far exceed the rated pressure and burst the nylon lines or filter.
After work I'll reply with pictures of what I think is the issue.
Thanks to all,
Jer
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post #27 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 1:34 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Hi,..I'm a little late to this thread.. Anyway...is it posable fuel got up in the charcoal cannister?

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post #28 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 2:16 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
William, both he and I are using the nylon fuel lines and I am making the assumption he is using the same ones I am sold by Euro Motoelectric and the kit comes with FI clamps. There are several others on this forum using them so I am sure they are paying attention. If someone is having an issue with them leaking, I know I want to know the reason so I can make sure the same thing doesn't happen to me. If it is just a lose clamp, that is easily fixed. If it has developed a hole, that goes toward durability over the stock rubber lines. It could also be an issue with the pump installed in 2014. Some of these after market pumps may not be all that great.

Waiting on a final diagnosis. I might put it back in the way it is and pull the sending tube out so I could look at it in operation as long as it wasn't making a fountain out onto the ground or into my face. Put a little fuel in and start it up and watch it.

Don't like the bucket idea because it won't develop the proper pressure open ended and if you blocked the output without a regulator, it could far exceed the rated pressure and burst the nylon lines or filter.
You are correct, I didn't think it through before typing. Replacing it and viewing it in tank is the best option.
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
On even closer inspection, I see some tiny gas bubbles coming out of the gas line at the input to the filter. Screw clamp is a bit farther away from butting up to the filter than the hose. Thinking a possible clogged/restricted filter, too.

Jer
The first picture, where the fuel line is entering the filter from the right, is the side I noticed the bubbles. Seems to me that 1) The clamp is too close to the filter ferrel and should be closer to the side of the filter. Being that far away from the side of the filter caused the line to open up under pressure. Being that close to the ferrel may not clamp the line correctly since it's coming in at an angle. 2) The clamp may not be tight enough for the nylon material. If it were OEM line, then you can see how far the clamp is 'digging' into the line. With nylon, you really can't.
Photo #2 shows how it should have been done, as there were no bubbles coming out from that side.
I've purchased a new filter, since the possibility of being clogged/restricted may have some part in the issue. I'll be putting the pump assembly back into the bike to test it out.
Great idea about coating the gasket.
There was no water in the tank.
The replacement pump was OEM.
Clamps and hose came in a package for replacement from Euro Motoelectric, so seems like the clamps are fine, I just didn't tighten correctly for the line material usage.
It's a '99, so the canister was removed long ago.

Hope to report back with good news when I receive the filter from Bob's. Going OEM on this, for sure.

Thanks all,
Jer
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post #30 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 6:13 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

I think you got it. Every time someone has posted:

"Before removing everything I did see swirling in the tank when I turned the key to the starting position."

It is a split line or leaky clamp. Should NOT be ANY swirling in the tank.

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post #31 of 60 Old Jul 20th, 2016, 11:31 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by alabrew View Post
Should NOT be ANY swirling in the tank.
I'm not sure of the term "swirling", but you should see some "movement" in the tank when the fuel pump is running.
When the pump pressures the system, the fuel regulator bypass is returned to the tank via the second fuel line and enters below the pump through the mounting plate. ("Sprays" straight up.) This should cause some visual "movement" of the fuel. How much movement will be dependent on the fuel level.
HTH

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post #32 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 8:55 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I'm not sure of the term "swirling", but you should see some "movement" in the tank when the fuel pump is running.
When the pump pressures the system, the fuel regulator bypass is returned to the tank via the second fuel line and enters below the pump through the mounting plate. ("Sprays" straight up.) This should cause some visual "movement" of the fuel. How much movement will be dependent on the fuel level.
HTH

Duane
Doesn't the ECM shut the fuel pump off once it reads a minimum fuel pressure in the fuel system? I thought it allowed it to pressure up then shut off to avoid burning up the pump. Once you started the bike the fuel pressure is constantly being reduced so the pump runs the whole time and then the fuel regulator manages the pressure with the bypass. If so you shouldn't see any movement in the tank while the engine is not running unless there is a leak. I could be wrong as I'm still figuring out some of the complexities of the systems.
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post #33 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 9:28 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

The clamps in the photos look cheesy.

I think that it would be a good idea to seek out some higher quality clamps.

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post #34 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 9:56 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by St0rm1 View Post
Doesn't the ECM shut the fuel pump off once it reads a minimum fuel pressure in the fuel system? I thought it allowed it to pressure up then shut off to avoid burning up the pump. Once you started the bike the fuel pressure is constantly being reduced so the pump runs the whole time and then the fuel regulator manages the pressure with the bypass. If so you shouldn't see any movement in the tank while the engine is not running unless there is a leak. I could be wrong as I'm still figuring out some of the complexities of the systems.
TO CLARIFY ABOVE POST:
The K100, K1100, K1200 (brick-engine) AND also the Oilhead Boxer models (R1100, R1150) all use the same design where the pump runs constantly (based on hall-effect sensor signal when engine is turning).

There is no over pressure as the fuel-rail has a mechanical fuel-pressure regulator that will returns everything else to the fuel-tank using the return hose. Hence, the correct pressure is maintained based on fuel-pressure regulator - assuming the fuel pump is working fine and can do above the pressure regulator requirements (constant 50 PSI for K1200).

The newer K1200, K1300, K1600 (frontal slant-4 and slant-6 engine) and also R1200 boxer use a different design where there is in fact a measurement of fuel pressure in real-time to stop-start the fuel pump. This so-called electronic fuel pressure regulator is located into the fuel pump cover where the hose enters the Fuel-Tank.
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post #35 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 10:08 am Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhawk2 View Post
The clamps in the photos look cheesy.

I think that it would be a good idea to seek out some higher quality clamps.
Any chance you can provide a link to either what you've used or suggest I find?

Thanks,
Jer

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post #36 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 10:39 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhawk2 View Post
The clamps in the photos look cheesy.

I think that it would be a good idea to seek out some higher quality clamps.
Those clamps are actually fairly substantial. Unlike the Oetiker clamps that are designed to compress the rubber as they are clamped, these apply pressure equally around the circumference of the line to seal them and are adjustable. Oetiker clamps would easily damage and cut into the nylon if not very careful. Those clamps are just fine for that application as long as they are adequately tightened. I am using the same nylon lines and clamps on my LT with no issue.

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post #37 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 11:10 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
The first picture, where the fuel line is entering the filter from the right, is the side I noticed the bubbles. Seems to me that 1) The clamp is too close to the filter ferrel and should be closer to the side of the filter. Being that far away from the side of the filter caused the line to open up under pressure. Being that close to the ferrel may not clamp the line correctly since it's coming in at an angle. 2) The clamp may not be tight enough for the nylon material. If it were OEM line, then you can see how far the clamp is 'digging' into the line. With nylon, you really can't.
Photo #2 shows how it should have been done, as there were no bubbles coming out from that side.
I've purchased a new filter, since the possibility of being clogged/restricted may have some part in the issue. I'll be putting the pump assembly back into the bike to test it out.
Great idea about coating the gasket.
There was no water in the tank.
The replacement pump was OEM.
Clamps and hose came in a package for replacement from Euro Motoelectric, so seems like the clamps are fine, I just didn't tighten correctly for the line material usage.
It's a '99, so the canister was removed long ago.

Hope to report back with good news when I receive the filter from Bob's. Going OEM on this, for sure.

Thanks all,
Jer
Your "correct" clamp looks to be tighter than the other one judging from the space between the ears on the clamps. However, it looks to be too close to the filter to me. I like to see an 1/8" or so of hose beyond the clamp. I try to center my clamp between the base of the flare on the filter and the filter body with the hose pretty tight against the filter body.

On the thicker rubber hoses, I tighten the clamps only until the OD of the clamp is flush with, or just slightly below, the OD surface of the hose. I've never had one come loose this way. A few folks will under tighten hose clamps, but the vast majority over tighten which damages the hose and can allow the jacket to get cut and things to come loose eventually.

I am not sure what guideline to use on these thinner nylon hoses. I would hope the maker might provide a torque spec or other guidance.

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post #38 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 11:15 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhawk2 View Post
The clamps in the photos look cheesy.

I think that it would be a good idea to seek out some higher quality clamps.
How so?

They look fine to me. I used similar clamps both in my external Jiffy Tites (7 years ago) and internal lines (2 years ago) and they work just fine properly installed.
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post #39 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 11:19 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
TO CLARIFY ABOVE POST:
The K100, K1100, K1200 (brick-engine) AND also the Oilhead Boxer models (R1100, R1150) all use the same design where the pump runs constantly (based on hall-effect sensor signal when engine is turning).

There is no over pressure as the fuel-rail has a mechanical fuel-pressure regulator that will returns everything else to the fuel-tank using the return hose. Hence, the correct pressure is maintained based on fuel-pressure regulator - assuming the fuel pump is working fine and can do above the pressure regulator requirements (constant 50 PSI for K1200).

The newer K1200, K1300, K1600 (frontal slant-4 and slant-6 engine) and also R1200 boxer use a different design where there is in fact a measurement of fuel pressure in real-time to stop-start the fuel pump. This so-called electronic fuel pressure regulator is located into the fuel pump cover where the hose enters the Fuel-Tank.
So the "key on" prime is just a time controlled action? It isn't a "run to pressure value" sequence?

I did not see a pressure sensor when I had mine apart, but I didn't know what might be integral to the pump.

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post #40 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 11:32 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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So the "key on" prime is just a time controlled action? It isn't a "run to pressure value" sequence?

I did not see a pressure sensor when I had mine apart, but I didn't know what might be integral to the pump.
The short prime sequence (after ignition ON) is just timed by ECU (BOSH Motronic) and is NOT based on reaching a certain pressure to stop prime action. The whole system design really does not care if you prime 3 sec or 10 seconds as the surplus goes back into the tank anyway (by design).

In order to spare fuel-pump from overworking for no valid reasons, I have to assume they did some engineering test to get an acceptable prime time that would satisfy overnight cold start. The overnight cold start is where the prime duration is the most important as tests (using pressure gauge inline) shows that there is a slight loss of pressure over several hour period (mainly caused by leaking injectors).

In fact, you could easily prove yourself that the system is closed internally (to maintain pressure when stopped) and stays "somewhat" primed when engine is stopped for a short time:
(1) with engine already warm and fairing off, disconnect fuel pump connector
(2) turn ignition ON, wait 8 seconds (just for ABS init and self test to finish)
(3) plug back the fuel pump connector (there should be NO priming noise)
(4) start engine as usual

If you did the same with long hours overnight stop, it might not start so well as you will have some internal pressure leak. It will still start but will require a few engine rotation (hall effect sensor is the trigger to fuel pump signal).

The whole EFI system of the K1200 "brick-engine" (like the K100 and K75) is NOT aware you have by-passed the prime sequence with above steps - there is no pressure sensor anywhere, just a "dumb / simple" fuel pressure regulator. As stated in earlier post, the newer BMW engine models EFI systems are very different compare to this.

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post #41 of 60 Old Jul 21st, 2016, 1:44 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
TO CLARIFY ABOVE POST:
The K100, K1100, K1200 (brick-engine) AND also the Oilhead Boxer models (R1100, R1150) all use the same design where the pump runs constantly (based on hall-effect sensor signal when engine is turning).

There is no over pressure as the fuel-rail has a mechanical fuel-pressure regulator that will returns everything else to the fuel-tank using the return hose. Hence, the correct pressure is maintained based on fuel-pressure regulator - assuming the fuel pump is working fine and can do above the pressure regulator requirements (constant 50 PSI for K1200).

The newer K1200, K1300, K1600 (frontal slant-4 and slant-6 engine) and also R1200 boxer use a different design where there is in fact a measurement of fuel pressure in real-time to stop-start the fuel pump. This so-called electronic fuel pressure regulator is located into the fuel pump cover where the hose enters the Fuel-Tank.
I appreciate the explanation, that makes sense. I'm learning something new everyday.
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post #42 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 12:06 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Before putting all back together, incrementally I checked for leaks as the engine ran perfectly, took for a test ride without right side tupperwear, ran perfectly, put all back together with a broad smile. Took for a mile ride and ran great. Put on the gear and headed out to get gas and then started to run like crap, as before.
Engine sounds like a bucket of bolts rattling around. No power when throttle is turned and bogs down badly. Disconnected the battery and did a TSP reset. Threw in some Heat gas treatment and ran for 15-min. No change at all.
The swirling of gas in the tank does not happen anymore.
BMW in Countryside, IL is coming out on Tues. to pick her up. Too f'in hot to tear her apart again.

Thanks for all the suggestions, tips and added knowledge of just how this bike operates. I've learned a LOT!
Jer

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post #43 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 1:05 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Looks like that Idle Activator fault is the next thing to look at.
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91 K100RS - The White Stallion
85 K100 Standard - Big Red
79 R65 - "The Bee" is a buzzin' again!
06 525i - Premium, Sport, Comfort, Xenons

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88 K100RT - Chocolate (it was brown, melted - fire)
85 K100RT - (wore out)
82 Yamaha Vision - (electrics)
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post #44 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 1:10 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
Before putting all back together, incrementally I checked for leaks as the engine ran perfectly, took for a test ride without right side tupperwear, ran perfectly, put all back together with a broad smile. Took for a mile ride and ran great. Put on the gear and headed out to get gas and then started to run like crap, as before.
Engine sounds like a bucket of bolts rattling around. No power when throttle is turned and bogs down badly. Disconnected the battery and did a TSP reset. Threw in some Heat gas treatment and ran for 15-min. No change at all.
The swirling of gas in the tank does not happen anymore.
BMW in Countryside, IL is coming out on Tues. to pick her up. Too f'in hot to tear her apart again.

Thanks for all the suggestions, tips and added knowledge of just how this bike operates. I've learned a LOT!
Jer
I assume no GS911 faults showing before BMW takes your money.

Musings lead to something intermittent. Canister removed so the line to the purge valve is blocked. Vacuum leak there could cause issues but I have never pulled my vac cap to see how it runs if that is open. That would be an intermittent leak as that valve opens and closes but I have no idea what the duty cycle of that circuit is.

Lack of fuel pressure, possibly the pump is bad or a less likely culprit would be the regulator. If it was stuck open, it might cause some swirling in the tank from excess flow bypass and low fuel pressure. GS911 won't tell you anything about that.

Not sure if the TPS would cause this particular issue as i think that would cause more of a miss or dead spot in the range of the throttle motion.

Hall sensor being intermittent could cause some bad stuff but it does sound more like a fuel starvation issue with the bogging rather than you stating that is is miss firing.

Whatever it is, please keep us updated on the findings.

Good luck Jerry.
Patric likes this.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #45 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 2:37 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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How so?

They look fine to me. I used similar clamps both in my external Jiffy Tites (7 years ago) and internal lines (2 years ago) and they work just fine properly installed.
Clymer manual; Chap. 7 Fuel and exhaust systems; Tools; p. 239; Figure 3. Looks to me like the recommended clamps to be used in the fuel system.

Jer

Jerry Palma
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post #46 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 2:47 pm Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by alabrew View Post
Looks like that Idle Activator fault is the next thing to look at.
I definitely agree. When I looked at what it meant to address an IA fault, I hoped for another solution.
I'll leave that up to the nearest BMW shop (first time service customer, actually).

Thanks,
Jer

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post #47 of 60 Old Jul 23rd, 2016, 4:40 pm
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

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Originally Posted by jers99lt View Post
I definitely agree. When I looked at what it meant to address an IA fault, I hoped for another solution.
I'll leave that up to the nearest BMW shop (first time service customer, actually).

Thanks,
Jer
The idle actuator is nothing but a stepper motor to set the idle. If you are having rideability issues other than it not idling, this should not be the issue.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI – Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT – Never should have sold it
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post #48 of 60 Old Jul 24th, 2016, 1:07 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

Jerry
I think that it would be a good idea to check your spark plug wires for arcing before sending her off to the dealer.
The plug wires are Notorious for chaffing & arcing in the space by the plugs.
Also worn plugs can cause a misfire, exaggerating any wire problems.

Easy to check.......worth a try.

Rand & Susan Hawksworth
2000 K1200LT Champagne

Last edited by Rhawk2; Jul 24th, 2016 at 1:13 am.
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post #49 of 60 Old Jul 24th, 2016, 10:31 am Thread Starter
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

What I found to be occurring is consistent with what happened after replacing gas filter and reseating the fuel hose/clamps.
Bike ran great right out of the gate and then after a couple short rides, going for a longer ride, started to bog down with throttle movement. Put her in the garage. This morning bikes starts fine and throttle movement revs the engine very nicely. I'm sure if I take her for a longer ride, the bogging will reoccur.

GS911 testing:
- Initially, after turning on ignition, error: "Failed to read controller info".
- Looking at current faults, other than Hall Effect because engine not running: "Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Circuit Malfunction, short circuit to earth. No fault present now. This fault occurred 20-times."

Just wondering where this scenario is pointing me to? O2 sensor?
Initially, when the swirling was happening in the tank, the O2 tested fine. I had received many IA faults.

Thanks,
Jer

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post #50 of 60 Old Jul 24th, 2016, 10:34 am
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Re: Possibly bad gas...burp!

My 2000 runs like that when the outside temps are in the 90's.

Dave Selvig
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