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post #1 of 22 Old Jul 10th, 2016, 7:11 pm Thread Starter
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O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

Well gang. After loosing string to fish new O2 plug and harness thru. After quite a while managed to route new harness thru. Did another TPS reset. Started her up. Still won't idle. I guess what saddleman says is true. He stated his 04 won't responding to a TPS reset. Guess i'll have to ride it like he said and hopefully it will relearn. This is just great. Everytime I change a battery,I have to go thru it running crappy? What the hell? Next time. I'll see if theres anyway I can hook up my 12VDC supply to it while doing swap.

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1999 Suzuki Intruder VL1500LC. Betty Lou.
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post #2 of 22 Old Jul 10th, 2016, 8:30 pm
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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Originally Posted by james216 View Post
Well gang. After loosing string to fish new O2 plug and harness thru. After quite a while managed to route new harness thru. Did another TPS reset. Started her up. Still won't idle. I guess what saddleman says is true. He stated his 04 won't responding to a TPS reset. Guess i'll have to ride it like he said and hopefully it will relearn. This is just great. Everytime I change a battery,I have to go thru it running crappy? What the hell? Next time. I'll see if theres anyway I can hook up my 12VDC supply to it while doing swap.
If you can get hold of a GS911 and run some tests, you might get some information. Also doing a GS911 test of the TPS and see if it is set correctly or just how far it is off. You might have a bad Throttle actuator also or simply adjusted wrong.

Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #3 of 22 Old Jul 10th, 2016, 10:55 pm Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

All I did was change the battery. It was idling normal before it lost battery power.

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post #4 of 22 Old Jul 10th, 2016, 11:07 pm
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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All I did was change the battery. It was idling normal before it lost battery power.
Is there any way you can get hold of a GS911 to do some diagnostics? I suspect as before, your TPS is mis-adjusted and it takes time for the system to try and compensate or the TVA is bad or out of adjustement, possibly a combination of things.

I believe I remember Sailor ( GS911 guru) stating that a bike when properly adjusted will start and idle with the TVA removed. If it won't do that, there is definitely something wrong. A GS911 might help isolate the issue.

Gordon
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #5 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 6:49 am Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

TVA?

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post #6 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 7:15 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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All I did was change the battery. It was idling normal before it lost battery power.
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Originally Posted by bmwcoolk1200 View Post
Is there any way you can get hold of a GS911 to do some diagnostics? I suspect as before, your TPS is mis-adjusted and it takes time for the system to try and compensate or the TVA is bad or out of adjustement, possibly a combination of things.

I believe I remember Sailor ( GS911 guru) stating that a bike when properly adjusted will start and idle with the TVA removed. If it won't do that, there is definitely something wrong. A GS911 might help isolate the issue.
Just to clarify and correct earlier post:
(1) By design, the TVA (idle actuator) is needed to idle at proper values of 950-1050 RPM by specs, but 1100 is very acceptable.

(2) By design, if TVA is removed, the somewhat hidden main idle screw would the new idle stop for throttle-bodies AND this would create a too low idle of approx 600 to 800 RPM (engine would die in most cases). Hence, based on above, you need a functioning TVA to idle properly.

(3) In addition to stable idle, the TVA also increases idle for a certain time in cold-start conditions. Idle may go between 1200 to 1400 for up to 30 seconds depending on how cold the engine is after being stopped for a full night.

(4) in addition, the TVA will stabilize or increase idle in very high load electrical demand like when using the reverser.

(5) the Oxygen-sensor is a not a critical item during start as its data is not used by Motronic until a waiting period (30 sec to 1:20) depending how cold the engine was.

HOWEVER, disconnecting the Battery (or removing MOTRONIC-EFIc fuse) for 10 minutes or more should NOT cause the problems he is seeing. BOSCH MOTRONIC 2.4 that we have on K1200 "brick-engine" will learn certain specific values because of assembly and wear tolerances for each bike. These learned values are lost when battery is disconnected, but ASSUMING all components (and engine state of tune) are withing acceptable tolerances, you should still idle fine after a memory reset caused by a battery removal.

This is a sign that something else is a bit out of normal tolerances. Unfortunately, these Motronic EFI are fairly old technology from 1990s and there is only so much the GS911 can tell you. You can check faults from TVA or TPS - you can also check TPS base setting, but the GS911 cannot know if you have low fuel pressure or a leaking fuel injectors. These 2 latter cases would affect cold start and can ONLY be checked with other tools or other methods.

Another common problem affected the "learned parameters" is the fact the main pulling throttle cables may have incorrect free play. This would affect and confuse the EFI when the ignition is turned ON as it is expecting a specific TPS position within a certain limited range when throttle is resting at idle. If cable free play is too small (too tight), the TPS is setting higher than normal AND by direct consequences the throttle butterflies would be opened more than they should.

One should NEVER troubleshoot these like you would with a simple single cylinder equipped with carburetor: the EFI system is easily confused when parameters are out of normal range during start.

IN CONCLUSION:
A GS911 fault readout would help make a decision -OR- eliminate certain type of faults. To help further, GS911 can also give us a real-time log of the all parameters when engine is started. BUT... based on all tests I have done in the past (some very strange just to see EFI behavior) I continue to think that any K1200 "brick-engine" that is well tuned should not need anything when battery is unplugged for more than 10 minutes. Of course, there will be some "learning" when you ride but this is mainly to gather Oxygen-Sensor data to fine tune the base fueling Map for you specific engine (wear, tolerances, riding conditions....)

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Last edited by sailor; Jul 11th, 2016 at 7:27 am.
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post #7 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 7:21 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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TVA? And where is.it?
See 2 attached photos with notes...
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post #8 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 7:37 am Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

Thanks Sailor.Do not have a GS-911. May have to see a dealer.

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post #9 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 8:51 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
(2) By design, if TVA is removed, the somewhat hidden main idle screw would the new idle stop for throttle-bodies AND this would create a too low idle of approx 600 to 800 RPM (engine would die in most cases). Hence, based on above, you need a functioning TVA to idle properly.
I stand corrected. I went back and re-read the Cold Blooded thread and what I thought I remembered as it would idle without it was actually you riding without a TVA but had to hold the throttle up. That was a very good thread.

Quote from Cold Blooded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
"Removing TVA does NOT upset anything unless you touch the adjuster screw behind TVA (also has blue paint). In fact, I have tested a ride without a TVA - idle is too low and you need to constantly hold throttle a bit at idle to stop engine from dying, but the TVA is not a critical part of the Air/Fuel mixture (just and idle speed control for various conditions). "

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #10 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 8:53 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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Thanks Sailor.Do not have a GS-911. May have to see a dealer.
Begin by doing simple checks yourself:
(1) unplug battery or EFI fuse for 15 minutes to erase/unlearn.

(2) with ignition OFF, check trhottle cables free play at handlebar (see CLYMER or BWM shop manual)

(3) with item 2 above, make sure the the idle-stop noise (click) can be heard EVERYTIME the throttle is closed or releases. Stiff throttle-cables will not work as this last item cannnot be garanteed (throttle-plate will stay open too much as tension is not released)

(4) reconnect battery (or fuse), do NOT touch throttle (leave it fully close) and try an engine start again.

A proper/working EFI system like we have on K1200 does NOT need any throttle input during start - it should fast idle by itself if condiitions are appropriate or needed (engine cold). Opening throttle manually should ONLY be done as a LAST OPTION when normal method does not work (to avoid stalling).

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post #11 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 9:44 am Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

It starts w/out throttle input. And idles to a degree when started cold. As she warms up. Idle obvoiusly gets worse. Riding along,All is fine . It runs ok .It's the idle that stays at about 850-or so. And stalls coming to a stop.

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post #12 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 10:33 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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It starts w/out throttle input. And idles to a degree when started cold. As she warms up. Idle obvoiusly gets worse. Riding along,All is fine . It runs ok .It's the idle that stays at about 850-or so. And stalls coming to a stop.
Going to bring some other information into this thread so you have one place to put all the information regarding this issue.

You replaced the O2 sensor for bad mileage and also did comment that it would not idle.

I think you said this happened when you either replaced or disconnected the battery. Was everything OK prior to that as in your mileage and Idle?

You speak as if this has happened before. Just checking so we have the information. Is this the first time you have expreienced this?

You have replaced the O2 sensor, tried the TPS reset. Is there anything else you have done/replaced up to this point such as check for swirling in the tank for a possible split fuel line?

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
1974 Yamaha TX 750 Twin. Omni Phase Balanced


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post #13 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 10:34 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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It starts w/out throttle input. And idles to a degree when started cold. As she warms up. Idle obvoiusly gets worse. Riding along,All is fine . It runs ok .It's the idle that stays at about 850-or so. And stalls coming to a stop.
OK... this is more complete descriptions of symptoms in various (cold and warm) conditions. Got a bit sidetracked by this part of your 1st post of thread: "Started her up. Still won't idle." . Hence, I had assumed you could not get it to start / idle correctly from a cold start.


Based on this latest info, we might be chasing a different problem / cause if indeed some of the symptoms get worse as it warms up. Better if you had GS911 to track real-time data, but without it you can check these by yourself at minimum:
(1) go for a SHORT ride and let it warm up (just before middle white line on temp gauge)

(2) go home, do not stop engine (if possible) , park on center stand and using a voltmeter check actual reading on Battery post. At idle you should have 13.1 to 13.7

(3) increase idle manually to 2000 rpm for very short period and watch if voltage will increase (should read 13.4 to 14.1)

(4) let it go back to idle and check reading again while you press front brake lever for about 5 seconds (voltage reading will go down but should NOT go too low)

These IABS (ABS with servos) pull a lot of juice - at idle, going into stop-go often this can become a problem if charging system or battery is weak.

Of course your problem might be only engine related, but without access to a GS911 I want to eliminate other possible causes - things that you can check yourself.


QUESTIONs:
(A) what other repair / mantenance was done recently ?
(B) can you recall when it started to behave like it does now at idle - has it ever done this in previous months / years??
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post #14 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 11:30 am Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

This is a brand new Odessey PC 680..OH MAN. Your right. The IABS does pull some juice. Maybe Odessey needs to be topped off. It could have sat on shelf for a while. But you wouldn't know it by how it turns over. But could be..And your answers. No it has never behaved like this. And . No recent work was done.

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post #15 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 11:44 am
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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This is a brand new Odessey PC 680..OH MAN. Your right. The IABS does pull some juice. Maybe Odessey needs to be topped off. It could have sat on shelf for a while. But you wouldn't know it by how it turns over. But could be..And your answers. No it has never behaved like this. And . No recent work was done.
If you do have a volt meter, take a reading with ignition off and another with ignition on as a baseline before you hook up a charger.

Gordon
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2001 K1200LTI Champagne (current ride) Lazy Susan
1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #16 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 12:02 pm Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

A voltmeter I have. I will do so this evening..

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post #17 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 12:36 pm
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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This is a brand new Odessey PC 680..OH MAN. Your right. The IABS does pull some juice. Maybe Odessey needs to be topped off. It could have sat on shelf for a while. But you wouldn't know it by how it turns over. But could be..And your answers. No it has never behaved like this. And . No recent work was done.
I have used 2 ODYSSEY PC680 in last 10 years - they are very good / strong batteries. My 2nd one was a pre-emptive conservative replacement when the 1st one hit age of 6.5 years.

BUT... make sure you understand the goal of my tests above with engine running and alternator charging: my concerns are not only on the Battery health BUT ALSO on the whole charging system behavior. Anything that goes below 12.9 volts while running / charging (even at idle) is suspect. Any EFI system that feels / gets a low voltage condition will be affected and would not be able to work properly

Of course, any test WITHOUT ENGINE RUNNING will show less than 12.9 volts after you turn ignition ON - this is normal and is only to be seen in this condition.
A fully charged PC680 will show 12.9 static / no-load (Before ignition OFF).

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post #18 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 12:49 pm Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

Got it. Will try and perform tests tonight. Does the alternator on the LT charge battery back up to full strength? Or does it maintain the charge that the battery has at that moment? What I mean is. If the battery isn't topped of , The charge is for example.. 80% The alternator will maintain that 80% ? Or will it charge back up to 100%?

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post #19 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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Got it. Will try and perform tests tonight. Does the alternator on the LT charge battery back up to full strength? Or does it maintain the charge that the battery has at that moment? What I mean is. If the battery isn't topped of , The charge is for example.. 80% The alternator will maintain that 80% ? Or will it charge back up to 100%?
Extended riding at speed should maintain a pretty full charge on the battery it is designed to handle the normal loads placed on the system with some to spare. Sitting for long periods is where you will run into trouble with the parasitic drain and not being on a tender.

Stop and go using the brakes a lot and sitting at idle could be a different story however, the alternator should be able to maintain the charge on the battery in most riding conditions. It doesn't take much off idle RPM to get the voltage up for charging.

Another thing to look for since you changed the battery, did you damage the vacuum hose to the fuel tank ventilation valve? That could create a vacuum leak and cause issues depending on if and how the canisterectomy was done and what hoses were blocked off and where.

Just trying to think of what you might have touched while changing the battery that could cause your symptoms. Check those hoses for damage while you have the seat up. When you open the tank, listen for a rush of air if it hasn't been done indicating a clogged canister or line. One thing at a time though. Do Sailors tests to get that diagnostic out of the way.

Gordon
Sugar Hill, GA
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1998 R1100RT Never should have sold it
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post #20 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 2:45 pm Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

Will do. Thanks.

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post #21 of 22 Old Jul 11th, 2016, 2:47 pm
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

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Got it. Will try and perform tests tonight. Does the alternator on the LT charge battery back up to full strength? Or does it maintain the charge that the battery has at that moment? What I mean is. If the battery isn't topped of , The charge is for example.. 80% The alternator will maintain that 80% ? Or will it charge back up to 100%?
The alternator will charge to 100% if the voltage regulator is working correctly. With the engine above 2,000 RPM or so, you should see a system voltage of 14+ volts which is more then enough to top off a lead acid battery.

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post #22 of 22 Old Jul 17th, 2016, 5:25 pm Thread Starter
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Re: O2 sensor install on 2004 LT update

All I did was replace the battery. Thats it. After that . It wouldn't idle. Never had this or any other engine issues. Did not perform any work recently.It was after this idle problem that I replaced the O2 sensor with a 13475. Thinking it would help. It has not.

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